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"word": "we've" }, { "start": 8194.38, "end": 8194.62, "word": "covered" }, { "start": 8194.62, "end": 8194.78, "word": "all" }, { "start": 8194.78, "end": 8194.86, "word": "the" }, { "start": 8194.86, "end": 8195.18, "word": "bases." } ], "segments": [ { "start": 0, "end": 1.12, "text": "I'm David Pinsoff." }, { "start": 1.36, "end": 2.88, "text": "I'm David Petrozowski." }, { "start": 3.28, "end": 7.12, "text": "And this is Evolutionary Psychology, the podcast, actual evolutionary psychology." }, { "start": 7.36, "end": 9.28, "text": "By actual evolutionary psychologists." }, { "start": 9.6, "end": 10.48, "text": "Nailed it." }, { "start": 16.96, "end": 19.68, "text": "Today we have a wonderful guest, Josh Tiber." }, { "start": 20.32, "end": 20.72, "text": "Yes." }, { "start": 20.88, "end": 26.64, "text": "Uh Josh is a uh expert in the field of disgust and disease psychology," }, { "start": 26.8, "end": 27.84, "text": "contamination." }, { "start": 28.08, "end": 33.39, "text": "Um he's such a fun person to talk to, and his knowledge of this area is quite" }, { "start": 33.39, "end": 35.23, "text": "expansive and breathtaking." }, { "start": 35.79, "end": 40.43, "text": "Particularly because this is an area in evolutionary psychology that has led to a lot of" }, { "start": 40.43, "end": 40.91, "text": "ideas." }, { "start": 41.31, "end": 42.67, "text": "It's been very generative." }, { "start": 43.23, "end": 48.99, "text": "Some of these ideas are more dubious than others, and Josh is the perfect person to uh cut" }, { "start": 48.99, "end": 54.48, "text": "through the bullshit and tell you what is uh real, or at least what is the most" }, { "start": 54.48, "end": 58.96, "text": "promising direction to head in and what is maybe more dubious." }, { "start": 59.12, "end": 63.84, "text": "Um for me, I think it's it's extremely clarifying to get his take on all these issues in" }, { "start": 63.84, "end": 66.0, "text": "the literature on disgust, and it's such a huge topic." }, { "start": 66.16, "end": 71.92, "text": "I mean, disgust touches on so many different aspects of our lives uh in a way that is" }, { "start": 71.92, "end": 75.6, "text": "really hard to appreciate um until you uh talk to Josh." }, { "start": 75.76, "end": 77.84, "text": "So um we get into lots of stuff." }, { "start": 78.0, "end": 78.88, "text": "Discuss, disease." }, { "start": 79.33, "end": 84.69, "text": "And I really appreciate about Josh that he is very careful and not a" }, { "start": 84.69, "end": 90.53, "text": "partisan in the sense of I always feel like I can I very much trust Josh's opinion" }, { "start": 90.53, "end": 95.81, "text": "about things in that he is just so careful um and is not fragile epistemically." }, { "start": 95.89, "end": 98.77, "text": "Like he'll entertain an idea, but then think about does this make sense?" }, { "start": 98.93, "end": 104.85, "text": "And I just he's just a lovely person to uh emulate in terms of the stance one takes" }, { "start": 104.85, "end": 110.58, "text": "towards ideas in in the sense of entertaining them, but also taking an arm's length take on" }, { "start": 110.58, "end": 114.26, "text": "them and saying, does this actually make sense, even if it's coming from within Ev Psych," }, { "start": 114.5, "end": 115.06, "text": "for example?" }, { "start": 115.38, "end": 119.7, "text": "Yes, he's one of the best examples I think of of a marriage between really good theory and" }, { "start": 119.7, "end": 120.74, "text": "really good empirics." }, { "start": 120.82, "end": 123.54, "text": "He's very good in both of those areas, which is rare." }, { "start": 124.34, "end": 125.06, "text": "Absolutely, yes." }, { "start": 125.14, "end": 128.1, "text": "So Josh is a shining example of how to do evpsy." }, { "start": 128.34, "end": 130.18, "text": "So without further ado, here's Josh Tiber." }, { "start": 130.66, "end": 131.22, "text": "Enjoy." }, { "start": 134.74, "end": 137.62, "text": "So Josh Tiber, you are in the Netherlands." }, { "start": 137.93, "end": 139.93, "text": "Um, how did you get there?" }, { "start": 140.73, "end": 142.49, "text": "Uh via airplane, Dave." }, { "start": 142.73, "end": 144.01, "text": "Um good, we're done." }, { "start": 144.17, "end": 144.49, "text": "Okay." }, { "start": 144.89, "end": 145.93, "text": "Have a good week, everybody." }, { "start": 146.01, "end": 147.21, "text": "Josh, thanks for coming on." }, { "start": 147.45, "end": 147.85, "text": "That was good." }, { "start": 148.25, "end": 150.65, "text": "So uh yeah, I can give you the backstory." }, { "start": 150.81, "end": 156.41, "text": "I was in a position to finish my PhD right when the great financial crisis was unfolding." }, { "start": 156.81, "end": 161.69, "text": "And I struck out on the job market, which was exclusively targeted at the US for a couple" }, { "start": 161.85, "end": 166.89, "text": "years, and I decided to try my luck out at a job ad in Amsterdam." }, { "start": 167.12, "end": 170.72, "text": "And it turned out to be the only hit that I got." }, { "start": 170.96, "end": 176.24, "text": "And I thought, well, that sounds like an exciting adventure to go continue my career in a" }, { "start": 176.24, "end": 177.12, "text": "foreign country." }, { "start": 177.36, "end": 179.68, "text": "So I moved over to Amsterdam in 2011." }, { "start": 179.84, "end": 181.76, "text": "It was initially just a two-year contract." }, { "start": 181.84, "end": 184.88, "text": "So jobs worked a little bit different out here rather than a 10-year track." }, { "start": 184.96, "end": 189.04, "text": "It was just you're an assistant professor for two years, and we'll see how it goes from" }, { "start": 189.04, "end": 189.36, "text": "there." }, { "start": 189.84, "end": 195.83, "text": "And um yeah, I've I've I felt very at home here and uh both academically and" }, { "start": 195.83, "end": 196.15, "text": "personally." }, { "start": 196.23, "end": 201.75, "text": "So I've ended up staying here and now I'm married with a kid and fairly uh integrated into" }, { "start": 201.75, "end": 202.95, "text": "the academic system." }, { "start": 203.35, "end": 208.31, "text": "Um for those people who are, I mean, you know, I think we're mostly American listeners." }, { "start": 208.39, "end": 214.23, "text": "Uh, how is how is it different either academically or personally, not to get too personal," }, { "start": 214.31, "end": 219.75, "text": "but we we're we we have we have four hours, so let's well, uh" }, { "start": 219.99, "end": 222.31, "text": "academically, I mean there there's tons of differences." }, { "start": 222.47, "end": 227.96, "text": "The commonalities are that European researchers, or at least uh Dutch and UK, and to an" }, { "start": 227.96, "end": 233.64, "text": "extent French, German, many other countries, they're publishing in uh overlapping, largely" }, { "start": 233.64, "end": 235.08, "text": "similar academic journals." }, { "start": 235.24, "end": 238.36, "text": "And a lot of them are coming to the same academic conferences." }, { "start": 238.52, "end": 241.16, "text": "Um, but there are differences in the education system." }, { "start": 241.32, "end": 246.52, "text": "For example, uh at my university, it's a three-year bachelor's degree, and we have six" }, { "start": 246.52, "end": 251.08, "text": "periods rather than uh quarters or semesters or trimesters." }, { "start": 251.32, "end": 256.55, "text": "Um, most people take a fourth year, which is technically a master's, but it's kind of like" }, { "start": 256.55, "end": 259.27, "text": "the fourth year of a bachelor's in the US." }, { "start": 259.43, "end": 261.83, "text": "Uh tuition is noticeably different." }, { "start": 261.91, "end": 266.95, "text": "So in the Netherlands, I think that our bachelor tuition is something like 2800 euros per" }, { "start": 266.95, "end": 269.35, "text": "year if you come from the EU." }, { "start": 269.83, "end": 273.03, "text": "And our master's tuition, I think, is 5,000 per year." }, { "start": 273.67, "end": 276.42, "text": "Um A financial burden." }, { "start": 276.66, "end": 277.94, "text": "Financial burden." }, { "start": 278.34, "end": 279.78, "text": "Yeah, it's quite a bit different." }, { "start": 279.94, "end": 285.14, "text": "So uh I would I would vastly prefer my son to attend a European or a Dutch university to a" }, { "start": 285.14, "end": 287.54, "text": "US one uh when he gets to be that age." }, { "start": 287.94, "end": 289.46, "text": "Yeah, Germany is free." }, { "start": 289.62, "end": 290.9, "text": "Um yeah." }, { "start": 291.46, "end": 297.46, "text": "I would imagine the funding for scientific research is also uh more forthcoming there, or" }, { "start": 297.46, "end": 300.5, "text": "is it as uh as bad as it is here in the US?" }, { "start": 301.06, "end": 306.71, "text": "Um I don't know about the proportion of proposals that are funded through the Dutch" }, { "start": 306.71, "end": 310.31, "text": "National Science Foundation versus the US National Science Foundation, but there's" }, { "start": 310.31, "end": 312.07, "text": "certainly been austerity recently." }, { "start": 312.23, "end": 317.91, "text": "There have been budgetary issues in European countries similar to those uh in the US." }, { "start": 318.39, "end": 323.83, "text": "And some of them have been caused by common kind of political movements in the US versus" }, { "start": 323.83, "end": 328.31, "text": "the Netherlands, but also there have been some constraints with economic recovery after the" }, { "start": 328.31, "end": 331.03, "text": "pandemic in uh in Europe versus the US." }, { "start": 332.18, "end": 335.7, "text": "And you were in you were there for the pandemic, yeah." }, { "start": 336.02, "end": 341.22, "text": "I was here for the pandemic, and that was uh that was an interesting experience, both uh" }, { "start": 341.22, "end": 343.22, "text": "research-wise, which we can get to in a little bit." }, { "start": 343.7, "end": 344.42, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah." }, { "start": 344.66, "end": 350.58, "text": "But also personally, um I I really learned Dutch well during the pandemic." }, { "start": 350.66, "end": 354.66, "text": "So I'd already been in the Netherlands for eight years and I'd taken several courses and um" }, { "start": 354.89, "end": 360.17, "text": "had some Dutch competence, but I really focused on language education and followed the news" }, { "start": 360.17, "end": 361.61, "text": "a lot during that period." }, { "start": 362.33, "end": 366.57, "text": "And also living in a very urban and walkable environment, my wife and I would take" }, { "start": 366.57, "end": 368.97, "text": "45-minute walks to the city every night." }, { "start": 369.05, "end": 374.98, "text": "And it was like being in that scene in the movie 28 days later, when the" }, { "start": 374.98, "end": 380.02, "text": "main character Jim leaves his hospital and there's just no one in downtown London." }, { "start": 380.58, "end": 384.98, "text": "It was exactly like that in Dam Square in Amsterdam, where you just wouldn't see another" }, { "start": 384.98, "end": 388.66, "text": "human being where typically you'd see hundreds of people during the middle of the day." }, { "start": 388.9, "end": 392.66, "text": "Yeah, like a CGI that post apocalyptic scene." }, { "start": 392.82, "end": 393.14, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 393.78, "end": 394.26, "text": "It was." }, { "start": 394.42, "end": 398.33, "text": "It was also the first time that I'd really, I don't know, know if regret is quite the right" }, { "start": 398.65, "end": 402.73, "text": "word, but I lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico for seven years, which just has incredible" }, { "start": 402.73, "end": 404.57, "text": "skies, mountains, landscapes." }, { "start": 404.73, "end": 408.97, "text": "And I really regretted not being able to just get in my car and drive somewhere." }, { "start": 409.93, "end": 412.49, "text": "An urban environment felt a little bit more like a prison." }, { "start": 412.65, "end": 418.49, "text": "And of course, there were uh I think that the term lockdown is used very sloppily to refer" }, { "start": 418.49, "end": 421.93, "text": "to a lot of things that um are not the same." }, { "start": 422.09, "end": 425.74, "text": "Uh, but we did have curfews and a lot of restaurants and bars were closed." }, { "start": 425.98, "end": 430.62, "text": "So uh options for social and just recreational activities were pretty limited." }, { "start": 430.86, "end": 431.34, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 431.66, "end": 434.22, "text": "David, you were in LA L you were in LA for that?" }, { "start": 434.62, "end": 435.66, "text": "I was, yeah." }, { "start": 435.82, "end": 438.78, "text": "Uh also, you know, things were locked down." }, { "start": 438.86, "end": 440.06, "text": "It was a bummer for everyone." }, { "start": 440.14, "end": 443.02, "text": "Uh it was, you know, it was it was dark times." }, { "start": 443.18, "end": 447.91, "text": "Uh but I wanna transition into your your research because um" }, { "start": 449.75, "end": 453.51, "text": "because everyone's like, no, tell us more about what it's like to walk through Amsterdam." }, { "start": 453.83, "end": 455.35, "text": "Yeah, let's just remember how how bad it was." }, { "start": 456.47, "end": 457.43, "text": "Yeah, exactly." }, { "start": 458.23, "end": 464.15, "text": "Uh so like you actually, as far as I'm aware, you have done some of the" }, { "start": 464.15, "end": 469.5, "text": "best and uh highest sample size research on the effects of pandemics on our psychology." }, { "start": 469.58, "end": 475.42, "text": "Uh and also you're one of the foremost experts on disgust and contamination psychology." }, { "start": 475.66, "end": 477.82, "text": "And so here you are in the middle of a pandemic." }, { "start": 477.9, "end": 483.1, "text": "You have uh this huge sample size of studying people's attitudes throughout the pandemic," }, { "start": 483.18, "end": 486.7, "text": "both you know, uh before it really peaked and and after." }, { "start": 486.86, "end": 489.5, "text": "And you have this uh huge, awesome data set." }, { "start": 489.66, "end": 493.74, "text": "I I remember seeing some of your slides at HBES and was really impressed by it." }, { "start": 493.82, "end": 499.81, "text": "Um And I would just love to get some of the takeaways from that project because I found it" }, { "start": 499.81, "end": 501.65, "text": "really interesting at the time I saw it at HBS." }, { "start": 501.81, "end": 504.37, "text": "And I I'd love a recap of it." }, { "start": 504.85, "end": 505.57, "text": "Yeah, sure." }, { "start": 505.73, "end": 510.69, "text": "So at the beginning of the pandemic, I was contacted by a lot of journalists because there" }, { "start": 510.69, "end": 515.41, "text": "aren't that many researchers who specialize in the psychology of pathogen avoidance." }, { "start": 515.56, "end": 519.8, "text": "And then all of a sudden, there's a once-in-a-generation or multiple generation pandemic." }, { "start": 520.2, "end": 524.28, "text": "And they wanted my insights into how human psychology was going to change as a function of" }, { "start": 524.28, "end": 525.4, "text": "COVID-19." }, { "start": 525.88, "end": 531.56, "text": "And initially, I was very skeptical that we would see many changes that had any kind of" }, { "start": 532.12, "end": 537.08, "text": "correspondence with our functionally specialized pathogen avoidance psychology." }, { "start": 538.07, "end": 542.23, "text": "Nevertheless, I felt like it would be a good idea to start collecting some data." }, { "start": 542.47, "end": 548.15, "text": "And so I partnered with a local panel research company in the Netherlands called" }, { "start": 548.15, "end": 549.35, "text": "Flycatcher." }, { "start": 549.51, "end": 554.15, "text": "And I started with, gosh, I think our first sample was a thousand individuals." }, { "start": 554.39, "end": 559.67, "text": "And we collected data during, let's see, I think that it was May of 2020." }, { "start": 559.75, "end": 564.95, "text": "So just about the peak period of deaths and ICU occupancy in the Netherlands." }, { "start": 565.11, "end": 570.7, "text": "And we had a plan to just collect data every nine months or so, as long as necessary until" }, { "start": 570.7, "end": 572.14, "text": "the pandemic was over." }, { "start": 572.54, "end": 578.54, "text": "And the goal was to assess some variables that psychologists have said" }, { "start": 578.86, "end": 582.94, "text": "relate to our motivations to avoid infectious disease." }, { "start": 583.26, "end": 584.38, "text": "I can list some of these." }, { "start": 584.54, "end": 587.18, "text": "One of them is disgust sensitivity." }, { "start": 587.5, "end": 593.42, "text": "So, as you and listeners are probably aware, some people are more easily disgusted by bad" }, { "start": 593.42, "end": 598.33, "text": "smells and, you know, just based on our folk psychology, gross things than others." }, { "start": 598.49, "end": 603.53, "text": "Um, and researchers have often tied variation in how easily disgusted you are to your" }, { "start": 603.53, "end": 605.85, "text": "motivations to avoid pathogen cues." }, { "start": 606.01, "end": 608.33, "text": "So we measured that across the pandemic." }, { "start": 608.57, "end": 612.25, "text": "Um, we measured attitudes toward outgroups." }, { "start": 612.57, "end": 617.61, "text": "So there's a literature suggesting that part of our psychology of inner group biases and" }, { "start": 617.61, "end": 623.48, "text": "negativity toward outgroups reflects adaptations for avoiding pathogens, with" }, { "start": 623.48, "end": 629.4, "text": "the idea that in our ancestral history, outgroups have posed a greater pathogen threat" }, { "start": 629.4, "end": 630.52, "text": "than in-groups." }, { "start": 631.32, "end": 636.6, "text": "And we assessed a variable that I've been assessing in several studies over the last five" }, { "start": 636.6, "end": 639.24, "text": "years that we just refer to as contact comfort." }, { "start": 639.48, "end": 645.31, "text": "So it's not how disgusted you are by pathogen cues, but rather how comfortable you" }, { "start": 645.31, "end": 649.15, "text": "would be um with indirect contact with another person." }, { "start": 649.39, "end": 654.91, "text": "So an example is if um Dave P, you take a big swig out of a Dasani" }, { "start": 655.15, "end": 657.55, "text": "bottle and you offer it to Dave other P." }, { "start": 657.79, "end": 659.47, "text": "I just made that mistake that all of you guys do." }, { "start": 659.87, "end": 660.43, "text": "Right here, look at this." }, { "start": 660.59, "end": 661.47, "text": "Sam Pellegrino." }, { "start": 661.63, "end": 666.67, "text": "Okay, if Pinsoff offers, if Pinsoff takes a swig out of a Sam Pellegrino bottle and offers" }, { "start": 666.67, "end": 670.35, "text": "it to Petrozki, uh, how comfortable are you with that, Petrazuki?" }, { "start": 671.88, "end": 672.76, "text": "How comfortable are you, Dave?" }, { "start": 674.04, "end": 675.0, "text": "I have a cold right now." }, { "start": 675.08, "end": 676.12, "text": "So yeah, you don't." }, { "start": 677.96, "end": 678.28, "text": "All right." }, { "start": 678.36, "end": 679.08, "text": "You can pass." }, { "start": 680.36, "end": 683.88, "text": "And then we also asked them about their explicit concerns about disease." }, { "start": 684.12, "end": 688.36, "text": "So uh items here are, you know, I'm concerned about getting an infectious disease right" }, { "start": 688.36, "end": 688.6, "text": "now." }, { "start": 688.84, "end": 694.27, "text": "And we could um track how these variables relate to each other, but also how they changed" }, { "start": 694.27, "end": 699.95, "text": "across these assessments during the pandemic to see if early on the pandemic, when disease" }, { "start": 699.95, "end": 704.43, "text": "is very salient, you know, there's press conferences weekly or so in the Netherlands," }, { "start": 704.59, "end": 708.27, "text": "there's lockdowns, people are worried about dying and about the parents dying." }, { "start": 708.35, "end": 711.98, "text": "They don't want to get close to each other because they're worried about these pathogens" }, { "start": 711.98, "end": 715.58, "text": "transmitted by invisible respiratory droplets and aerosols." }, { "start": 716.46, "end": 722.06, "text": "If then these variables that we think reflect pathogen avoidance motivations are" }, { "start": 722.06, "end": 724.46, "text": "changing with the intensity of the pandemic." }, { "start": 724.78, "end": 730.7, "text": "So ultimately, we had four assessments every nine months starting in 2020 and ending in" }, { "start": 730.7, "end": 736.3, "text": "2022 when the World Health Organization had declared that the pandemic was" }, { "start": 736.3, "end": 736.94, "text": "complete." }, { "start": 737.79, "end": 742.51, "text": "And uh what what did you find from from this uh massive undertaking?" }, { "start": 743.31, "end": 746.83, "text": "We found zero differences in most of these variables." }, { "start": 746.99, "end": 750.75, "text": "So discuss sensitivity uh did not change across the pandemic." }, { "start": 750.91, "end": 754.91, "text": "This was actually a little bit contrary to some early papers that were pushed out very" }, { "start": 754.91, "end": 760.6, "text": "early in the pandemic, um, but were kind of small sample size, and we're just looking at" }, { "start": 760.6, "end": 765.16, "text": "what a mean was here and what a mean on another sample was that would have been pulled out" }, { "start": 765.16, "end": 766.2, "text": "of the literature." }, { "start": 766.68, "end": 772.6, "text": "Since we could follow our participants across time, uh we had a very high-powered uh study" }, { "start": 772.6, "end": 774.52, "text": "for detecting fairly small effect sizes." }, { "start": 774.68, "end": 778.28, "text": "And we didn't see that, you know, when people were very worried about disease and they were" }, { "start": 778.28, "end": 783.64, "text": "getting cues to at least socially transmitted cues to there being uh threats posed by" }, { "start": 783.64, "end": 788.97, "text": "disease, we didn't see that they were more disgusted by mold or bad smells or sores or" }, { "start": 788.97, "end": 790.01, "text": "anything like that." }, { "start": 790.17, "end": 795.61, "text": "Um, we also saw no differences in anti immigrant bias across the" }, { "start": 795.61, "end": 796.49, "text": "pandemic." }, { "start": 796.65, "end": 801.61, "text": "Um, so when people were explicitly saying, Yes, I'm quite worried about disease, they were" }, { "start": 801.61, "end": 806.97, "text": "no more um negative toward immigrants than uh when they weren't as concerned." }, { "start": 807.13, "end": 808.54, "text": "Now I just skipped it a little bit." }, { "start": 808.62, "end": 813.1, "text": "When we did ask them their kind of reflective concerns about disease, I'm worried about" }, { "start": 813.1, "end": 815.5, "text": "getting sick right now, we saw very large effect sizes." }, { "start": 815.58, "end": 820.94, "text": "Yes, people were consciously worried about disease early, not late, but that didn't" }, { "start": 821.18, "end": 823.74, "text": "correspond with then greater anti immigrant bias." }, { "start": 823.9, "end": 827.26, "text": "Maybe most interestingly, there was no change in contact comfort." }, { "start": 827.42, "end": 832.69, "text": "So people weren't saying I'm less comfortable sharing a water bottle with someone, even" }, { "start": 832.69, "end": 836.05, "text": "when health authorities were saying you really don't want to be doing this on the" }, { "start": 836.05, "end": 841.89, "text": "self-report instruments, uh, they were no less comfortable early in the pandemic" }, { "start": 841.97, "end": 843.65, "text": "um than late in the pandemic." }, { "start": 843.81, "end": 848.69, "text": "And that might seem counterintuitive, but if you actually saw behavior during the pandemic," }, { "start": 849.01, "end": 851.81, "text": "some people were you know consciously worried about things." }, { "start": 851.97, "end": 857.17, "text": "Um, but when I would go out in public, the majority of people were disregarding most of" }, { "start": 857.17, "end": 858.21, "text": "these recommendations." }, { "start": 858.37, "end": 862.74, "text": "They were not keeping their in Europe their meter and a half, uh, or I don't know if it was" }, { "start": 862.9, "end": 864.82, "text": "it was six feet uh in the US." }, { "start": 864.98, "end": 869.38, "text": "And they were rushing out to bars and restaurants when they were uh opened again." }, { "start": 870.02, "end": 873.62, "text": "So I I'll leave that there if you have any follow-up questions, then I can explain" }, { "start": 873.62, "end": 875.78, "text": "something else that was interesting that we found." }, { "start": 876.1, "end": 882.1, "text": "Uh is the idea that the stable were there are there stable individual differences in these" }, { "start": 882.1, "end": 885.14, "text": "things that what were already in the literature and that you found again." }, { "start": 885.45, "end": 885.69, "text": "Yes." }, { "start": 885.85, "end": 886.09, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 886.17, "end": 889.13, "text": "So there's high test-retest reliability for these measures." }, { "start": 889.37, "end": 889.53, "text": "Okay." }, { "start": 889.69, "end": 894.33, "text": "So if you look at the interclass correlation coefficient in the multi-level model that we" }, { "start": 894.33, "end": 898.25, "text": "used, you have a very high ICC reflecting stable individual differences." }, { "start": 898.73, "end": 898.97, "text": "Got it." }, { "start": 899.05, "end": 903.13, "text": "So if you know I sit down in a chair and it's still warm from the previous person, that" }, { "start": 903.21, "end": 904.33, "text": "fine, I find that gross." }, { "start": 904.49, "end": 905.69, "text": "Somebody else doesn't." }, { "start": 905.94, "end": 909.22, "text": "whether or not we're in a pandemic, I'm gonna still find it gross." }, { "start": 909.38, "end": 910.74, "text": "The other person still isn't." }, { "start": 910.98, "end": 916.98, "text": "So the idea is that the individual stable differences wash away any effect there might have" }, { "start": 916.98, "end": 920.1, "text": "been from the overarching pandemic cues." }, { "start": 920.18, "end": 921.7, "text": "Is that the general idea?" }, { "start": 922.26, "end": 922.9, "text": "That's right." }, { "start": 922.98, "end": 927.14, "text": "And you know, any effect there might have been, again, we had very high power to detect" }, { "start": 927.14, "end": 930.1, "text": "very small effects, and we didn't even detect those." }, { "start": 930.34, "end": 930.9, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 931.77, "end": 936.01, "text": "And then did you find any within cohort correl correlations?" }, { "start": 936.09, "end": 941.29, "text": "So like within a a cohort, say, you know, one of you know, between one of your nine month" }, { "start": 941.45, "end": 946.73, "text": "separations or whatever, did you find correlations between say disgust sensitivity and" }, { "start": 946.73, "end": 951.53, "text": "anti-immigrant sentiment or fear of disease and anti-immigrant sentiment or or anything" }, { "start": 951.53, "end": 951.85, "text": "like that?" }, { "start": 952.25, "end": 953.85, "text": "Yeah, we replicated these effects." }, { "start": 954.09, "end": 958.73, "text": "So um individu individuals who are higher in disgust sensitivity are more negative toward" }, { "start": 958.81, "end": 959.37, "text": "immigrants." }, { "start": 959.54, "end": 962.42, "text": "pretty small effect size, but uh we we did detect that, yes." }, { "start": 962.98, "end": 967.7, "text": "And what what what is if I can just push on that for a second, what's the logic?" }, { "start": 968.42, "end": 971.3, "text": "You talked a little bit about the logic, but can we unpack that?" }, { "start": 971.38, "end": 977.14, "text": "Because I think one of the one of the reasons why people find the behavioral immune" }, { "start": 977.14, "end": 982.5, "text": "system stuff interesting is number one, it's just interesting to think about" }, { "start": 982.5, "end": 985.38, "text": "psychological adaptations for avoiding disease." }, { "start": 985.54, "end": 991.03, "text": "But number two, I think there's been an argument that it has a host of concomitant" }, { "start": 991.03, "end": 996.95, "text": "effects that might seem sort of irrational from a naive or or" }, { "start": 996.95, "end": 1000.79, "text": "maybe standard social science model to be sort of coalitional about of psych." }, { "start": 1001.11, "end": 1005.99, "text": "Can you either unpack like what's the logic of avoiding out groups?" }, { "start": 1006.23, "end": 1009.27, "text": "And is this uh a real in your opinion?" }, { "start": 1009.35, "end": 1010.23, "text": "Like what's up with that?" }, { "start": 1010.31, "end": 1012.71, "text": "And can you just talk more about that for people who may not know?" }, { "start": 1013.24, "end": 1013.8, "text": "Absolutely." }, { "start": 1013.96, "end": 1018.84, "text": "And I'll take a circuitous route to doing that and hopefully not monologue or lecture too" }, { "start": 1018.84, "end": 1021.56, "text": "much because I think that this is a really interesting topic." }, { "start": 1021.8, "end": 1026.76, "text": "So there's a social psychologist, evolutionary psychologist named Mark Schaller, who really" }, { "start": 1026.76, "end": 1028.2, "text": "pioneered this area." }, { "start": 1028.36, "end": 1033.48, "text": "And Mark wrote a nice chapter in Buss's handbook of evolutionary psychology, in which he" }, { "start": 1033.48, "end": 1038.2, "text": "described the behavioral immune system as an evolutionary success story." }, { "start": 1038.44, "end": 1043.77, "text": "And when Mark first started working on this stuff in the early aughts, I was only familiar" }, { "start": 1043.77, "end": 1049.21, "text": "with a couple papers that engaged with the psychology of disease and disease avoidance." }, { "start": 1049.45, "end": 1053.53, "text": "Most of it was looking at attitudes toward gay men in the 1990s because they were" }, { "start": 1053.53, "end": 1058.33, "text": "explicitly associated with HIV, and researchers thought this might underlie part of" }, { "start": 1058.33, "end": 1059.53, "text": "anti-gay prejudice." }, { "start": 1059.69, "end": 1065.69, "text": "And then uh the evolutionary psychologist Rob Kurzban and co-author Mark Leary wrote a" }, { "start": 1065.69, "end": 1071.06, "text": "classic paper that really kind of uh got me thinking about evolutionary psychology in" }, { "start": 1071.06, "end": 1076.5, "text": "2001 on stigmatization, and they proposed that one of three reasons uh" }, { "start": 1076.5, "end": 1081.22, "text": "explaining general stigmatization processes in humans is parasite avoidance." }, { "start": 1081.38, "end": 1086.34, "text": "Um, regardless, Mark Schaller, being a social psychologist largely interested in prejudice," }, { "start": 1086.58, "end": 1092.5, "text": "started thinking well, people kind of have aversions to a lot of individuals for" }, { "start": 1092.5, "end": 1094.26, "text": "seemingly irrational reasons." }, { "start": 1094.5, "end": 1100.21, "text": "So um birthmarks, physical disability, just looking different than other" }, { "start": 1100.21, "end": 1100.53, "text": "people." }, { "start": 1100.85, "end": 1105.65, "text": "And a lot of theories in social psychology have difficulty explaining that." }, { "start": 1105.81, "end": 1111.65, "text": "And so he started proposing that a lot of this might be our specialized pathogen avoidance" }, { "start": 1111.65, "end": 1116.53, "text": "psychology treating features of different individuals in our social environments as" }, { "start": 1116.53, "end": 1119.33, "text": "diagnostic of an increased infection risk." }, { "start": 1119.8, "end": 1124.68, "text": "Now, this again is something that if you're not thinking about evolution and what our minds" }, { "start": 1124.68, "end": 1129.08, "text": "should be designed to do, you really have a tough time coming to that hypothesis." }, { "start": 1129.24, "end": 1134.12, "text": "And if we unpack that a little bit further, in talks I give on this topic, I often give a" }, { "start": 1134.12, "end": 1139.48, "text": "picture of this really cool looking virus virus, a bacterial phage." }, { "start": 1139.79, "end": 1143.63, "text": "And phages are specialized for infecting bacterial cells." }, { "start": 1143.79, "end": 1146.27, "text": "So some bacteria that infect humans, like E." }, { "start": 1146.43, "end": 1150.51, "text": "coli, they're actually infected by these viral cells." }, { "start": 1150.67, "end": 1154.99, "text": "And what this suggests is that pathogens have been a problem for life on Earth pretty much" }, { "start": 1154.99, "end": 1157.47, "text": "as long as life on Earth has existed." }, { "start": 1157.63, "end": 1163.07, "text": "And they should be one of the most important factors in shaping the evolution of" }, { "start": 1163.63, "end": 1164.19, "text": "life." }, { "start": 1164.43, "end": 1170.18, "text": "And we should expect a lot of complex adaptations for this problem in all animals," }, { "start": 1170.58, "end": 1174.98, "text": "and specifically what we're interested in as psychologists, humans." }, { "start": 1175.7, "end": 1181.38, "text": "Now, if we think about all of the things that humans have to do that have non-zero disease" }, { "start": 1181.38, "end": 1184.5, "text": "risks, well, eating puts things in our mouths." }, { "start": 1184.9, "end": 1189.14, "text": "We often need to touch our food with our hands, which are coming into contact with other" }, { "start": 1189.14, "end": 1190.9, "text": "things that are pathogen risks." }, { "start": 1191.07, "end": 1195.71, "text": "Um, having sex requires close proximity and contact with someone else." }, { "start": 1195.87, "end": 1199.71, "text": "And evolutionary psychologists have pointed out that sex is pretty important and make" }, { "start": 1199.71, "end": 1202.59, "text": "preferences for understanding uh the mind." }, { "start": 1203.15, "end": 1208.99, "text": "Um, basic social interactions, so touching things that other people have touched, so" }, { "start": 1209.07, "end": 1214.75, "text": "exchanging artifacts or physical contact for cooperative interactions, uh, interacting with" }, { "start": 1214.75, "end": 1217.63, "text": "animals, either as food or with dogs." }, { "start": 1217.87, "end": 1220.19, "text": "And the list goes on: child rearing." }, { "start": 1220.8, "end": 1226.48, "text": "And so by unlocking better knowledge about how our minds have evolved to deal with" }, { "start": 1226.48, "end": 1231.44, "text": "pathogens, to detect them and then manage the threats posed by them, we should be able to" }, { "start": 1231.44, "end": 1236.0, "text": "make inroads in a lot of different research areas in evolutionary psychology." }, { "start": 1236.24, "end": 1239.52, "text": "So that's kind of the pitch for why this is important." }, { "start": 1240.56, "end": 1245.52, "text": "Let me stop there for a second before we go on to the outgroup thing, just to see if you" }, { "start": 1245.52, "end": 1247.36, "text": "guys have any questions or comments." }, { "start": 1247.81, "end": 1252.77, "text": "No, it's it's it's a wonderful um tour of of the history of this thinking." }, { "start": 1252.93, "end": 1258.69, "text": "And uh I'm eager to get to the punchline of you know what is real here uh" }, { "start": 1258.85, "end": 1261.17, "text": "and what uh was a wrong turn." }, { "start": 1261.41, "end": 1266.69, "text": "Yeah and I just want to say too uh before I to interrupt um it's also a great example of it" }, { "start": 1266.69, "end": 1270.68, "text": "reminds me of Annie Wirtz's plant work where you know people are like, oh, that's weird" }, { "start": 1270.76, "end": 1275.4, "text": "that there's like psychological stuff for pathogen avoidance or any with like with plants." }, { "start": 1275.48, "end": 1279.56, "text": "But then if you and that's from a very like ivory tower, like the purpose of cognition is" }, { "start": 1279.56, "end": 1284.68, "text": "thinking, we don't think about the embodied physical environment or nature really at all." }, { "start": 1284.84, "end": 1288.76, "text": "But if you come from this other perspective, yeah, like pathogens have been around forever." }, { "start": 1288.92, "end": 1293.07, "text": "I mean, there's arguments that the evolution of sex is because of pathogens, right?" }, { "start": 1293.31, "end": 1298.75, "text": "And uh and something like plants or pathogens, it's the prior for there being lots of" }, { "start": 1298.75, "end": 1301.15, "text": "adaptations for these things is so high." }, { "start": 1301.39, "end": 1306.91, "text": "So I just love this idea that you're taking a thing that is sort of counterintuitive from" }, { "start": 1306.91, "end": 1311.71, "text": "this very narrow perspective, but really there's really good evidence or arguments or logic" }, { "start": 1311.71, "end": 1312.43, "text": "for why it would be." }, { "start": 1312.51, "end": 1315.95, "text": "So I think it's just a good example of the argument of taking an evolutionary approach," }, { "start": 1316.2, "end": 1318.52, "text": "providing a novel, different way of thinking about things." }, { "start": 1318.68, "end": 1321.32, "text": "But that's that's just my commentary before we proceed to the street." }, { "start": 1321.48, "end": 1321.8, "text": "Yeah, absolutely." }, { "start": 1322.44, "end": 1323.16, "text": "Absolutely agreed." }, { "start": 1323.4, "end": 1327.64, "text": "So when we get to outgroups, I'll also say that in this research area, there were a lot of" }, { "start": 1327.64, "end": 1329.8, "text": "exciting hypotheses early on." }, { "start": 1329.96, "end": 1334.68, "text": "And then, as is the case with you know all kinds of generative and productive scientific" }, { "start": 1334.68, "end": 1339.0, "text": "enterprises, there's uh pruning, and then there's more generation, and then there's further" }, { "start": 1339.0, "end": 1339.48, "text": "pruning." }, { "start": 1339.57, "end": 1342.13, "text": "And there's not an absolute consensus in this area." }, { "start": 1342.29, "end": 1345.81, "text": "I think that you could have guests that might disagree with some of my perspective, but" }, { "start": 1345.81, "end": 1347.33, "text": "I'll give you mine here." }, { "start": 1348.13, "end": 1353.57, "text": "Some of the early work in this area, uh, by Mark Schaller, by uh really, really smart" }, { "start": 1353.57, "end": 1359.57, "text": "people like Dan Fessler, Carlos Navarrett, also uh Randy Thornhill, a lot of it was focused" }, { "start": 1359.57, "end": 1365.5, "text": "on this idea of outgroup biases and prejudices having something to do with pathogen" }, { "start": 1365.5, "end": 1365.98, "text": "avoidance." }, { "start": 1366.06, "end": 1370.3, "text": "And the authors that I just mentioned, some of them have slightly different perspectives on" }, { "start": 1370.3, "end": 1370.54, "text": "this." }, { "start": 1370.78, "end": 1375.9, "text": "But I'll give you the account from the parasite stress model, which has some commonalities" }, { "start": 1375.9, "end": 1377.18, "text": "with other accounts." }, { "start": 1377.42, "end": 1383.42, "text": "The idea here is that people specialize their immune responses" }, { "start": 1383.42, "end": 1385.66, "text": "to pathogens in their local ecologies." }, { "start": 1385.74, "end": 1389.66, "text": "And the pathogens in different ecologies are going to be different." }, { "start": 1389.97, "end": 1395.73, "text": "And so if you have two groups that live, let's say, on two different sides of a" }, { "start": 1395.73, "end": 1401.73, "text": "mountain or across an ocean, they're going to develop some immunity" }, { "start": 1401.73, "end": 1405.41, "text": "based on their exposure to specific pathogens in their ecologies." }, { "start": 1405.81, "end": 1411.57, "text": "And so the average interaction with someone from your ecology who shares some" }, { "start": 1411.57, "end": 1417.34, "text": "immunity to the type of pathogens there, that's going to be less of a threat to you simply" }, { "start": 1417.34, "end": 1421.34, "text": "because you have some immunity to the pathogens that that person is going to transmit to" }, { "start": 1421.34, "end": 1425.26, "text": "you if you're shaking their hand or eating food with them or something like that." }, { "start": 1425.5, "end": 1430.38, "text": "However, if you have an interaction with a person on the other side of that mountain who" }, { "start": 1430.38, "end": 1435.1, "text": "has exposure to different pathogens that you might not have some adaptive immunity toward," }, { "start": 1435.58, "end": 1439.9, "text": "that interaction is going to be more likely to infect you with something that has higher" }, { "start": 1439.9, "end": 1440.46, "text": "costs for you." }, { "start": 1440.54, "end": 1442.35, "text": "And those costs could ultimately be death." }, { "start": 1442.51, "end": 1446.67, "text": "But of course, pathogen with pathogens is not you die or you don't die." }, { "start": 1447.15, "end": 1448.51, "text": "There are metabolic costs." }, { "start": 1448.67, "end": 1452.03, "text": "You could infect social partners or kin." }, { "start": 1452.51, "end": 1456.35, "text": "There could be phenotypic differences that lead you to be stigmatized." }, { "start": 1456.51, "end": 1460.51, "text": "You have less time and energy to hunt, to invest in friends, all sorts of bad things with" }, { "start": 1460.51, "end": 1461.23, "text": "infection." }, { "start": 1461.47, "end": 1467.39, "text": "So the idea here is that the mind might have evolved to treat out-group membership as a" }, { "start": 1467.39, "end": 1473.26, "text": "cue to pathogens, or at least to the infectiousness or the danger" }, { "start": 1473.26, "end": 1474.78, "text": "of pathogens to you." }, { "start": 1475.02, "end": 1480.22, "text": "And hence, we should see these relations between disgust sensitivity and outgroup biases." }, { "start": 1480.38, "end": 1485.1, "text": "So the individuals who, when they see pathogen cues, they feel more disgusted." }, { "start": 1485.58, "end": 1490.14, "text": "Their affective systems are basically investing more in avoidance in response to these cues" }, { "start": 1490.14, "end": 1492.46, "text": "than the people who are low on disgust sensitivity." }, { "start": 1492.78, "end": 1496.86, "text": "Those high disgust sensitivity individuals should be more biased against outgroups." }, { "start": 1496.97, "end": 1502.01, "text": "uh, we should see greater inner group biases in parts of the world with a higher" }, { "start": 1502.01, "end": 1504.97, "text": "concentration of parasites, et cetera." }, { "start": 1505.29, "end": 1507.45, "text": "So that's the argument." }, { "start": 1507.61, "end": 1512.89, "text": "And there are a lot of studies that have been interpreted as supporting that argument." }, { "start": 1513.29, "end": 1517.61, "text": "Um, I have personally been skeptical of that argument for a few reasons." }, { "start": 1517.69, "end": 1522.49, "text": "And part of this might be uh my background in social psychology as it is." }, { "start": 1522.74, "end": 1528.1, "text": "And Dave Petrozky, uh, given that you're interested in groups and group psychology, you" }, { "start": 1528.1, "end": 1530.1, "text": "might have some thoughts to add to this as well." }, { "start": 1530.34, "end": 1536.02, "text": "Um, one is that the psychology of groups has very little overlap with uh ecological origin." }, { "start": 1536.42, "end": 1541.54, "text": "And this perspective really is centered around people come from different ecologies that" }, { "start": 1541.54, "end": 1542.9, "text": "have different pathogens." }, { "start": 1543.15, "end": 1548.11, "text": "So the minimal group paradigm, which was developed in the 1970s, demonstrates that if you" }, { "start": 1548.11, "end": 1552.91, "text": "just get a bunch of strangers in a room and you tell half of them that they are people who" }, { "start": 1552.91, "end": 1558.19, "text": "favor the artist Klee, and the other half that they favor the artist Kandinsky, you can get" }, { "start": 1558.19, "end": 1561.15, "text": "these manifestations of intergroup biases." }, { "start": 1562.43, "end": 1568.27, "text": "The erasing race work, and Dave, your other work on alliance detections and the" }, { "start": 1568.27, "end": 1574.2, "text": "Who Said What paradigm suggests that the way that group membership is encoded" }, { "start": 1574.6, "end": 1579.88, "text": "based on phenotypic features is kind of flexible and probably tracking coalitions more so" }, { "start": 1579.88, "end": 1581.96, "text": "than it's tracking ecological origins." }, { "start": 1582.12, "end": 1587.4, "text": "And the work by uh Tosho Yamagishi and others that kind of follows up on minimal group" }, { "start": 1587.4, "end": 1592.97, "text": "paradigm studies suggests that these perceptions or at least behaviors of intergroup" }, { "start": 1592.97, "end": 1596.25, "text": "biases are really tracking assumptions of interdependence." }, { "start": 1596.57, "end": 1602.17, "text": "So kind of first principle aspects of this account leave me" }, { "start": 1602.17, "end": 1607.77, "text": "skeptical that we would actually be treating out group members per se as" }, { "start": 1607.77, "end": 1609.13, "text": "accused of pathogens." }, { "start": 1609.69, "end": 1610.97, "text": "I'll pause there in case, yeah." }, { "start": 1611.37, "end": 1611.69, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1612.09, "end": 1613.86, "text": "So I I fully agree." }, { "start": 1613.94, "end": 1617.06, "text": "I I share your skepticism of this hypothesis." }, { "start": 1617.3, "end": 1620.98, "text": "And uh I I I would add though, I mean, and this connects to some of your other research," }, { "start": 1621.14, "end": 1626.82, "text": "there may be a grain of truth to it uh insofar as you know, any kind of social" }, { "start": 1626.82, "end": 1630.34, "text": "interaction has some pathogen risk associated with it." }, { "start": 1630.58, "end": 1635.3, "text": "And we should have evolved to weigh the costs of those pathogen risks against the potential" }, { "start": 1635.3, "end": 1635.86, "text": "benefits." }, { "start": 1636.07, "end": 1641.83, "text": "And so, insofar as you view outgroups as lower value social partners, then the" }, { "start": 1641.83, "end": 1644.71, "text": "costs of interacting them with them may outweigh the benefits." }, { "start": 1644.87, "end": 1650.07, "text": "So, in that sense, it wouldn't be that you're viewing outgroups as a as a particularly high" }, { "start": 1650.07, "end": 1651.83, "text": "pathogen risk and therefore you're avoiding them." }, { "start": 1651.91, "end": 1654.07, "text": "It's that you already don't like them for other reasons." }, { "start": 1654.15, "end": 1659.66, "text": "Uh, and because we evolved to uh um not bear the costs of interacting with people we don't" }, { "start": 1659.66, "end": 1665.02, "text": "like, then that could uh contribute to some you know, say greater disgust toward outgroups" }, { "start": 1665.1, "end": 1669.26, "text": "or disgust might win the battle in terms of the cost-benefit analysis of interacting with" }, { "start": 1669.26, "end": 1669.34, "text": "them." }, { "start": 1669.5, "end": 1673.1, "text": "Do you do you buy that um grain of truth story?" }, { "start": 1673.42, "end": 1673.74, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1673.98, "end": 1674.94, "text": "Yeah, absolutely." }, { "start": 1675.18, "end": 1680.99, "text": "So that's a nice segue, uh Dave, in that one thing that I've argued for recently is that" }, { "start": 1681.07, "end": 1685.63, "text": "uh the majority of our path to avoidance psychology in terms of social interactions is" }, { "start": 1685.63, "end": 1686.91, "text": "based on two things." }, { "start": 1687.15, "end": 1692.59, "text": "One of them is: does this person actually have a feature that is diagnostic of" }, { "start": 1692.59, "end": 1693.39, "text": "infection?" }, { "start": 1693.55, "end": 1699.54, "text": "And I'm skeptical that things like old age or obesity, uh, some cues that" }, { "start": 1699.54, "end": 1704.82, "text": "have been proposed uh when this literature first started developing are actually treated as" }, { "start": 1704.82, "end": 1708.58, "text": "diagnostic of being contagious with an infection right then." }, { "start": 1708.9, "end": 1714.26, "text": "I would bet, well, maybe not bet money, but uh reputation, that um" }, { "start": 1714.74, "end": 1720.02, "text": "the the cues that people interpret as diagnostic of contagion are really going to be" }, { "start": 1720.02, "end": 1725.95, "text": "limited to things like oozing sores on the face, things related to skin color, skin" }, { "start": 1725.95, "end": 1729.95, "text": "texture, irregular dots of color, that type of stuff." }, { "start": 1730.19, "end": 1736.19, "text": "So that's going to be one feature that's important in kind of regulating this." }, { "start": 1736.59, "end": 1738.91, "text": "Do I take a risk associated with pathogens?" }, { "start": 1739.07, "end": 1742.11, "text": "How likely is this person that has uh has an infection?" }, { "start": 1742.27, "end": 1748.0, "text": "One interesting thing about that is that the actual pathogens that infect people now don't" }, { "start": 1748.0, "end": 1753.12, "text": "need to be the same as the pathogens that infected people 50,000 years ago or 100,000 years" }, { "start": 1753.12, "end": 1755.52, "text": "ago or two million years ago or anything like that." }, { "start": 1755.76, "end": 1761.2, "text": "A lot of times what we're responding to is other individuals' immune systems activating." }, { "start": 1762.32, "end": 1766.96, "text": "And in fact, some researchers at the Karolinski Institute have this really cool method" }, { "start": 1766.96, "end": 1771.75, "text": "where they inject their participants with something called lipopolysaccharide." }, { "start": 1772.23, "end": 1777.19, "text": "It's like the cell wall of bacteria that cause infections." }, { "start": 1777.27, "end": 1782.39, "text": "And when you inject people with it, they don't, they're not actually infected, but these" }, { "start": 1782.39, "end": 1787.59, "text": "cell walls do provoke an innate immune response, high level, high increases in things like" }, { "start": 1787.83, "end": 1792.87, "text": "interleukin 6, pro-inflammatory cytokines, and they feel really sick for like six hours." }, { "start": 1793.04, "end": 1796.4, "text": "And so um awesome study." }, { "start": 1797.52, "end": 1801.68, "text": "They uh they bring the people to the lab twice, one time with the placebo, one time with" }, { "start": 1801.68, "end": 1802.48, "text": "the LPS." }, { "start": 1802.64, "end": 1806.24, "text": "And yeah, I've spoken with the researchers who do this, and they say, yeah, people pretty" }, { "start": 1806.24, "end": 1808.72, "text": "much know what condition they're in pretty quickly." }, { "start": 1809.44, "end": 1814.32, "text": "Um, but in some of their studies, they've taken photographs of the individuals who have" }, { "start": 1814.32, "end": 1818.8, "text": "gotten the LPS, uh, and then you know, at time two or time one, depending on the" }, { "start": 1818.8, "end": 1821.36, "text": "counterbalanced order, gotten the placebo." }, { "start": 1821.6, "end": 1825.63, "text": "And um you can really tell which one was the sick one." }, { "start": 1825.87, "end": 1831.71, "text": "So uh just based on internal inflammation, you can detect cues to another person" }, { "start": 1831.71, "end": 1833.31, "text": "having uh an immune response." }, { "start": 1833.63, "end": 1834.19, "text": "Is it anyway?" }, { "start": 1834.27, "end": 1836.99, "text": "What do you what do you what do you think the is it because I would imagine a big part of" }, { "start": 1836.99, "end": 1840.51, "text": "it is they just look really like tired and out of it, their eyes are probably droopy." }, { "start": 1840.59, "end": 1844.11, "text": "I imagine that's part of it, but is there's probably skin coloration effects as well, or do" }, { "start": 1844.11, "end": 1847.07, "text": "we or do we not know what cues they're picking up on?" }, { "start": 1847.42, "end": 1847.98, "text": "Oh yeah." }, { "start": 1848.14, "end": 1852.14, "text": "I mean, I I show this image in my episode class that I teach and everyone loves it." }, { "start": 1852.3, "end": 1856.46, "text": "But um yeah, they look paler, the eyes look a little puffy." }, { "start": 1857.02, "end": 1862.22, "text": "Um uh there's there's a little bit uh of irregularity in the cut in the color." }, { "start": 1862.3, "end": 1864.54, "text": "Uh the sclera look a little bit less clear." }, { "start": 1864.86, "end": 1866.94, "text": "And that's just with visual cues, right?" }, { "start": 1867.02, "end": 1870.7, "text": "Like, I mean, if you know the person, like I mean, I have a slight cold, like I said, it's" }, { "start": 1870.7, "end": 1871.58, "text": "like right on time for you." }, { "start": 1871.66, "end": 1872.7, "text": "And like I sound different." }, { "start": 1872.86, "end": 1878.57, "text": "I assume a lot of the inflammation of of these areas is also" }, { "start": 1878.73, "end": 1883.05, "text": "has really, you know, we have a lot of machinery for detecting very subtle acoustic" }, { "start": 1883.05, "end": 1883.69, "text": "differences." }, { "start": 1884.09, "end": 1888.25, "text": "Um, you know, so I think you could if you know what the person usually sounds like, you can" }, { "start": 1888.25, "end": 1891.45, "text": "really tell when somebody is like, you know, congested and or not." }, { "start": 1891.61, "end": 1891.93, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1892.25, "end": 1892.73, "text": "Absolutely." }, { "start": 1892.89, "end": 1896.81, "text": "I I find this interesting just to think about the number of times that people might say," }, { "start": 1897.05, "end": 1897.61, "text": "are you sick?" }, { "start": 1897.77, "end": 1898.49, "text": "Are you feeling okay?" }, { "start": 1898.57, "end": 1900.57, "text": "Do you think no it's allergies." }, { "start": 1900.65, "end": 1900.81, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1900.89, "end": 1901.85, "text": "No, somebody will be like, yeah." }, { "start": 1902.01, "end": 1902.09, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 1902.72, "end": 1902.8, "text": "yeah." }, { "start": 1903.28, "end": 1907.76, "text": "Um, another evolutionary psychologist, Josh Ackerman, has an interesting research program" }, { "start": 1907.76, "end": 1912.8, "text": "right now on people uh concealing whether they're sick because there could be cost to" }, { "start": 1912.8, "end": 1917.2, "text": "disclosing that you're infected to other individuals based on how they treat you, uh" }, { "start": 1917.28, "end": 1919.04, "text": "opportunities they might give you, etc." }, { "start": 1919.44, "end": 1924.4, "text": "But uh regardless, there's this one part of our pathogen avoidance psychology, which should" }, { "start": 1924.4, "end": 1930.4, "text": "be um trying to detect or estimate how likely someone is to uh be contagious, right," }, { "start": 1930.48, "end": 1931.36, "text": "at this moment." }, { "start": 1931.67, "end": 1937.51, "text": "The other part is well, we basically don't know if anyone we can't, we" }, { "start": 1937.51, "end": 1939.75, "text": "don't have perfect knowledge that people are contagious." }, { "start": 1939.91, "end": 1945.43, "text": "And some of these cues can update our estimates that they're contagious, but we're never" }, { "start": 1945.43, "end": 1946.87, "text": "going to have perfect knowledge." }, { "start": 1947.43, "end": 1951.03, "text": "And, you know, some sometimes infections aren't producing any symptoms at all." }, { "start": 1951.19, "end": 1955.19, "text": "Sometimes these symptoms are are of, you know, they could be false alarms in terms of" }, { "start": 1955.19, "end": 1955.99, "text": "detection." }, { "start": 1956.34, "end": 1960.58, "text": "But we do need to take these risks with all individuals who don't necessarily have" }, { "start": 1960.58, "end": 1961.14, "text": "symptoms." }, { "start": 1961.22, "end": 1967.06, "text": "And so we should be calibrating those risks based on things not related to pathogens, but" }, { "start": 1967.06, "end": 1973.06, "text": "rather based on how beneficial is contact and proximity with this individual?" }, { "start": 1973.3, "end": 1979.21, "text": "And how much of a cost would I pay to categorize them as posing a pathogen risk to me" }, { "start": 1979.45, "end": 1981.77, "text": "in the absence of any kind of visual cues." }, { "start": 1982.01, "end": 1987.85, "text": "So, in one paper that Deb Lieberman and I and Tom Kupfer and some other" }, { "start": 1988.17, "end": 1994.09, "text": "Le Fan and Rainette Fries published a while ago, we tested this idea that it's" }, { "start": 1994.09, "end": 1999.13, "text": "one of those ideas where you have a giant effect size, and uh, yeah, your grandma would" }, { "start": 1999.13, "end": 2000.41, "text": "know this kind of thing." }, { "start": 2000.65, "end": 2005.7, "text": "Um, we just randomly assigned participants to think about uh a target." }, { "start": 2005.78, "end": 2009.54, "text": "And we asked them to think about a target who is either their romantic partner or their" }, { "start": 2009.54, "end": 2015.54, "text": "closest friend or an acquaintance or an enemy, someone that they know well," }, { "start": 2015.62, "end": 2017.3, "text": "but they really can't stand." }, { "start": 2017.46, "end": 2021.22, "text": "And we asked them these questions how comfortable would you be sharing drinking from a" }, { "start": 2021.22, "end": 2025.54, "text": "water bottle that this person drank from, touching this person's socks after they" }, { "start": 2025.54, "end": 2029.7, "text": "exercised, taking a bite out of a sandwich that this person had taken a bite out of." }, { "start": 2029.86, "end": 2034.43, "text": "So none of them required them to actually touch the person or risk transmitting pathogens" }, { "start": 2034.43, "end": 2039.55, "text": "to that individual, but basically just touch something they touched and have some risk of" }, { "start": 2039.55, "end": 2041.23, "text": "pathogens being transmitted to them." }, { "start": 2041.39, "end": 2047.23, "text": "And you just get these gigantic effect sizes, even though these individuals have no cues" }, { "start": 2047.23, "end": 2048.75, "text": "to pathogens that we're aware of." }, { "start": 2048.83, "end": 2050.99, "text": "You know, we just ask them to think about this person." }, { "start": 2052.03, "end": 2057.62, "text": "And so that's some good evidence that people are calibrating their pathogen avoidance" }, { "start": 2057.62, "end": 2062.82, "text": "tendencies for specific individuals based on how important that person is to them." }, { "start": 2063.3, "end": 2069.3, "text": "But we further propose that within these folk categories, there should be variation in" }, { "start": 2069.3, "end": 2072.9, "text": "how much you value that relationship with that target." }, { "start": 2073.14, "end": 2079.06, "text": "So Dave Pinsoff, you might value your best friend more than Dave Petrozowski, you" }, { "start": 2079.06, "end": 2082.5, "text": "value your best friend, or you might value the acquaintance that you think of more than" }, { "start": 2082.5, "end": 2085.3, "text": "Dave Petrozzewski values the acquaintance that he thinks of." }, { "start": 2085.49, "end": 2090.29, "text": "So we also administered something called a welfare trade-off task, something developed by" }, { "start": 2090.29, "end": 2091.73, "text": "uh Dave Petrozicki." }, { "start": 2091.81, "end": 2094.77, "text": "You probably went to grad school with Andy Delton and uh Tess Robertson." }, { "start": 2094.85, "end": 2096.21, "text": "You were probably there at the same time." }, { "start": 2096.45, "end": 2099.81, "text": "But this is this is developed from the UCSB group." }, { "start": 2100.37, "end": 2104.45, "text": "And if there are psychologists in the audience, this is very similar to something called" }, { "start": 2104.45, "end": 2107.25, "text": "social value orientation, but it's target specific." }, { "start": 2107.57, "end": 2113.02, "text": "But effectively, what you assess is the proportion of" }, { "start": 2113.02, "end": 2118.46, "text": "benefit that you would be willing to give up for a target to get some" }, { "start": 2118.46, "end": 2119.1, "text": "benefit." }, { "start": 2119.34, "end": 2125.26, "text": "So, said differently across 10 trials, I could ask, I could ask you 10 questions where Dave" }, { "start": 2125.26, "end": 2128.86, "text": "Dave Petrozowski always gets uh 30 bucks." }, { "start": 2129.02, "end": 2133.82, "text": "Um, and Dave Pinsoff has asked, well, would you rather get 80 bucks or Dave Petrozki get" }, { "start": 2133.82, "end": 2133.98, "text": "30?" }, { "start": 2134.14, "end": 2137.58, "text": "Would you rather get 60 or Dave Petrozki get 30, etc., etc.?" }, { "start": 2137.99, "end": 2142.87, "text": "And based on the point at which they start saying, well, I'll give up the benefit for uh" }, { "start": 2142.87, "end": 2148.63, "text": "Dave Petrozowski to get that benefit, you can estimate the ratio of uh the" }, { "start": 2148.63, "end": 2152.79, "text": "target's welfare uh relative to your own that you're willing to give up." }, { "start": 2153.03, "end": 2158.07, "text": "So, with that kind of long-winded explanation for what this task is out of the way, we find" }, { "start": 2158.07, "end": 2162.66, "text": "these really consistent correlations also within these kind of folk categories." }, { "start": 2162.82, "end": 2166.66, "text": "The people who value their closest friend more are also more comfortable with these" }, { "start": 2166.66, "end": 2167.86, "text": "pathogen risks." }, { "start": 2168.26, "end": 2172.82, "text": "And at a bivariate level, if you just look at welfare trade-off ratio and contact comfort," }, { "start": 2173.06, "end": 2174.9, "text": "correlation coefficients are like 0.7." }, { "start": 2175.3, "end": 2177.3, "text": "It's insanely large." }, { "start": 2179.62, "end": 2181.38, "text": "We replicated this over multiple studies." }, { "start": 2181.46, "end": 2186.26, "text": "We even replicated it, we even uh tried it where we gave photos of strangers and we" }, { "start": 2186.26, "end": 2191.03, "text": "described them with the personality traits uh high in honesty, humility, and agreeableness," }, { "start": 2191.11, "end": 2193.59, "text": "or low in honesty, humility, and agreeableness." }, { "start": 2193.75, "end": 2199.35, "text": "And these are personality traits that meta-analyses show predict cooperation in anonymous" }, { "start": 2199.35, "end": 2200.63, "text": "interactions between strangers." }, { "start": 2200.79, "end": 2203.43, "text": "So amount of money you give in a prisoner's dilemma, for example." }, { "start": 2203.59, "end": 2205.11, "text": "And we see the same thing." }, { "start": 2205.35, "end": 2210.79, "text": "Um, you see the same thing in that context, meaning even with a stranger," }, { "start": 2211.11, "end": 2217.06, "text": "you're more likely to tolerate disease from them if they're higher on" }, { "start": 2217.06, "end": 2217.94, "text": "these traits." }, { "start": 2218.26, "end": 2218.9, "text": "That's correct." }, { "start": 2219.22, "end": 2222.5, "text": "I'm more willing to share a drink with a nice guy than with an asshole." }, { "start": 2222.58, "end": 2225.94, "text": "And it's interesting that we use that term asshole because it itself elicits disgust." }, { "start": 2227.7, "end": 2228.02, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 2228.34, "end": 2229.22, "text": "Yeah, that's right." }, { "start": 2229.46, "end": 2235.22, "text": "So looping back to the COVID study, this was one thing that we replicated strongly within" }, { "start": 2235.22, "end": 2236.18, "text": "that COVID study." }, { "start": 2236.34, "end": 2241.93, "text": "So at the four different time points that we surveyed participants, we randomly assign them" }, { "start": 2241.93, "end": 2246.41, "text": "to have a different target and assessed welfare trade-off ratio across those times." }, { "start": 2246.49, "end": 2250.09, "text": "And we see that within participant as well as but as well as between participants." }, { "start": 2250.25, "end": 2254.33, "text": "So if you ask the same person to think about different targets, you know, at nine months" }, { "start": 2254.33, "end": 2259.61, "text": "apart, you have this really strong relationship that, yes, an individual, when they think" }, { "start": 2259.61, "end": 2265.16, "text": "of someone who they have a higher interpersonal value for, they're more comfortable taking" }, { "start": 2265.16, "end": 2270.2, "text": "these uh infection risks just based on touching things that another person has touched than" }, { "start": 2270.2, "end": 2272.84, "text": "someone that they have a low interpersonal value for." }, { "start": 2273.4, "end": 2278.92, "text": "I mean, this seems bad for the generic outgroup hypothesis in the sense of you're getting" }, { "start": 2278.92, "end": 2284.92, "text": "sensitivity on these measures to other things that sort of from first principles you would" }, { "start": 2284.92, "end": 2285.48, "text": "expect." }, { "start": 2285.96, "end": 2287.91, "text": "So like relationship, yeah." }, { "start": 2287.99, "end": 2293.11, "text": "I mean, so what's can we is that it seems like a problem, but is it is there an argument to" }, { "start": 2293.11, "end": 2295.11, "text": "steel man that hypothesis?" }, { "start": 2295.19, "end": 2298.31, "text": "Is it the argument that it's specific kinds of groups?" }, { "start": 2298.55, "end": 2303.75, "text": "Or how it sounds really bad for the group, the the group pathogen" }, { "start": 2304.07, "end": 2304.71, "text": "idea." }, { "start": 2305.99, "end": 2311.91, "text": "Um so with my former PhD student, Annika Karnan, we have another paper in" }, { "start": 2311.91, "end": 2317.7, "text": "which um this was a registered report where you have hypotheses peer review before the" }, { "start": 2317.7, "end": 2320.9, "text": "data are uh are published or before the results are known." }, { "start": 2320.98, "end": 2326.34, "text": "But we randomly signed participants to read about an immigrant that was either uh really" }, { "start": 2326.34, "end": 2329.94, "text": "low on assimilation or really high on assimilation." }, { "start": 2330.1, "end": 2335.3, "text": "Um, and we also had another uh it was cross with this in the vignette, they're really high" }, { "start": 2335.3, "end": 2337.06, "text": "in contact or low in contact." }, { "start": 2337.19, "end": 2340.87, "text": "So they were either living in kind of a ghetto with other immigrants, or they were really" }, { "start": 2340.87, "end": 2342.07, "text": "integrating in town." }, { "start": 2342.31, "end": 2347.83, "text": "They're really adopting the local norms or they were really keeping the norms of their home" }, { "start": 2347.83, "end": 2348.63, "text": "country." }, { "start": 2349.03, "end": 2354.39, "text": "We did see that discuss sensitivity was related to anti-immigrant attitudes when they were" }, { "start": 2354.39, "end": 2359.75, "text": "not assimilating, but they were not related to the anti-immigrant attitudes when they are" }, { "start": 2359.75, "end": 2360.47, "text": "assimilating." }, { "start": 2360.71, "end": 2366.3, "text": "So I think this ties back into the other account well in and that the assimilation might be" }, { "start": 2366.3, "end": 2370.46, "text": "a cue for being a good co-op, a valuable uh interactions uh partner." }, { "start": 2371.1, "end": 2375.18, "text": "Um, when they're not assimilating, then you're getting the people who are higher in disgust" }, { "start": 2375.18, "end": 2380.06, "text": "sensitivity who are really like, uh, I really don't want to one that person around me." }, { "start": 2380.22, "end": 2384.54, "text": "And so you could still have people varying on their trait level pathogen avoidance, and" }, { "start": 2384.54, "end": 2390.35, "text": "depending on how they're framing that immigrant in terms of being uh a likely uh" }, { "start": 2390.35, "end": 2393.71, "text": "benefit socially versus not, you could get this relationship." }, { "start": 2394.11, "end": 2399.71, "text": "So to summarize, if I'm hearing you right, it's that it's not that the pathogen system is" }, { "start": 2399.71, "end": 2404.67, "text": "sort of overriding the social valuation system." }, { "start": 2405.15, "end": 2410.18, "text": "It's that the social valuation system is sort of tracking: is this somebody worth" }, { "start": 2410.18, "end": 2410.82, "text": "interacting with?" }, { "start": 2410.98, "end": 2412.02, "text": "Is it a friend?" }, { "start": 2412.18, "end": 2414.82, "text": "Is it somebody who I'm going to get benefits from?" }, { "start": 2415.22, "end": 2419.94, "text": "What's the what's the likely forecast of social value?" }, { "start": 2420.18, "end": 2426.02, "text": "And then if that's already low, then all of the problems or cons of interacting" }, { "start": 2426.02, "end": 2431.46, "text": "with that person anyway are just going to be like the excuse or come to the fore." }, { "start": 2431.54, "end": 2434.98, "text": "And one of those cons might be pathogen." }, { "start": 2435.89, "end": 2439.01, "text": "but but it sounds like roughly speaking, that's the order." }, { "start": 2439.17, "end": 2442.77, "text": "Is that a fair characterization of the literature as you see it?" }, { "start": 2443.17, "end": 2444.61, "text": "Um yes." }, { "start": 2444.77, "end": 2450.77, "text": "Although I I I think that this idea of outgroups being categorized as a pathogen thread" }, { "start": 2450.77, "end": 2452.69, "text": "is still prevalent in the literature." }, { "start": 2452.77, "end": 2458.76, "text": "Um, so of course, I'm I'm giving you my read, which is shaped by uh my data, But I I" }, { "start": 2458.76, "end": 2463.08, "text": "would be curious how uh how others generally uh look at this." }, { "start": 2463.24, "end": 2467.96, "text": "Um now there is another issue though, and uh Dave Pinsoff, I know that you mentioned this," }, { "start": 2468.04, "end": 2473.96, "text": "maybe it was in your podcast with Deb Lieberman, some other work on uh pathogen avoidance" }, { "start": 2473.96, "end": 2475.16, "text": "and sexual strategies." }, { "start": 2475.32, "end": 2479.0, "text": "So there's another finding that's been prevalent in the literature, and that is that" }, { "start": 2479.16, "end": 2484.77, "text": "largely in US samples, although there's some cross-cultural data that support this as well." }, { "start": 2485.01, "end": 2489.49, "text": "Individuals who are higher in discuss sensitivity tend to be more politically conservative." }, { "start": 2489.57, "end": 2495.09, "text": "So they score higher on measures of right-wing authoritarianism and traditionalism and just" }, { "start": 2495.09, "end": 2500.13, "text": "self-identification as liberal versus conservative, especially on social issues." }, { "start": 2500.37, "end": 2505.33, "text": "And again, the argument for this relation has really tied back to intergroup interactions" }, { "start": 2505.41, "end": 2511.34, "text": "for the most part, suggesting that those who are more invested in avoiding pathogens should" }, { "start": 2511.34, "end": 2516.94, "text": "find these right wing ideologies more appealing because they interrupt intergroup" }, { "start": 2516.94, "end": 2519.98, "text": "interactions and they're anti immigrant and that type of stuff." }, { "start": 2520.22, "end": 2524.38, "text": "For the same reasons that I articulated earlier, that there are some reasons to be" }, { "start": 2524.38, "end": 2527.1, "text": "skeptical of that account." }, { "start": 2527.66, "end": 2533.58, "text": "My colleagues, including uh Yal Imbar and Catherine Moulho, and I suggested that" }, { "start": 2533.91, "end": 2539.59, "text": "maybe this could be a byproduct of something else, namely sexual strategies, in that" }, { "start": 2539.83, "end": 2545.35, "text": "having kind of more permissive reproductive lifestyles or reproductive strategies" }, { "start": 2545.67, "end": 2547.99, "text": "exposes people to higher pathogen threats." }, { "start": 2548.07, "end": 2553.67, "text": "So people need to kind of weigh how valuable is having a less restricted sexual" }, { "start": 2553.67, "end": 2559.22, "text": "life to me relative to the higher pathogen costs imposed by that lifestyle." }, { "start": 2559.38, "end": 2564.18, "text": "And this need not just be what we call sexually transmitted infections, which are called" }, { "start": 2564.18, "end": 2567.54, "text": "that because they are transmitted via sex specifically." }, { "start": 2567.7, "end": 2571.3, "text": "So they infect largely genitals and are transmitted via genitals." }, { "start": 2571.46, "end": 2576.18, "text": "But if you can get the flu by standing in a room with someone, you can get the flu by" }, { "start": 2576.18, "end": 2577.14, "text": "having sex with them." }, { "start": 2577.3, "end": 2581.22, "text": "And so individuals who are especially invested in avoiding pathogens, they might actually" }, { "start": 2581.22, "end": 2586.53, "text": "select reproductive strategies that uh lower that risk of pathogen" }, { "start": 2586.69, "end": 2587.33, "text": "transmission." }, { "start": 2587.49, "end": 2592.61, "text": "And once you have a specific reproductive strategy, certain political ideologies are more" }, { "start": 2592.61, "end": 2596.05, "text": "favorable versus disfavorable to those strategies." }, { "start": 2596.29, "end": 2599.49, "text": "So, of course, this is in line with David Pinsoff." }, { "start": 2599.57, "end": 2602.61, "text": "You've probably discussed some of this on one of these podcasts." }, { "start": 2603.65, "end": 2609.01, "text": "But uh conservative ideologies, they're often disincentivizing" }, { "start": 2609.44, "end": 2612.56, "text": "these more unrestricted type of sexual lifestyles." }, { "start": 2612.72, "end": 2616.8, "text": "So they're making it harder to get abortion abortions, access to birth control, they're" }, { "start": 2616.8, "end": 2620.56, "text": "moralizing pornography and hookups and that type of stuff." }, { "start": 2620.72, "end": 2625.92, "text": "And so you might get this relation where you have more pathogen avoidant" }, { "start": 2625.92, "end": 2626.8, "text": "individuals." }, { "start": 2627.2, "end": 2629.44, "text": "They select these specific sexual strategies." }, { "start": 2629.52, "end": 2634.4, "text": "And then based on sexual strategies, people sort into these political coalitions partially." }, { "start": 2634.72, "end": 2640.25, "text": "And so this bivariate relation between pathogen avoidance and political" }, { "start": 2640.49, "end": 2644.01, "text": "values might be operating through these uh sexual strategies." }, { "start": 2644.17, "end": 2645.29, "text": "And that's what we find." }, { "start": 2645.45, "end": 2650.57, "text": "And over and over and over, if you ask people how disgusted they are by sexual things, um," }, { "start": 2650.81, "end": 2656.57, "text": "and you ask them how disgusted they are by pathogen things, and uh there's no independent" }, { "start": 2656.57, "end": 2661.77, "text": "relation between how disgusted they are by the pathogen things and um political values," }, { "start": 2661.93, "end": 2664.89, "text": "once you control for the the sexual disgust." }, { "start": 2665.4, "end": 2667.8, "text": "Some of that uh original work, too." }, { "start": 2667.88, "end": 2671.08, "text": "I I my understanding was it didn't really replicate." }, { "start": 2671.24, "end": 2674.28, "text": "So some of the like I like John Hibbing, for example." }, { "start": 2674.44, "end": 2680.04, "text": "I remember he came to UCSB when I was a graduate student and presented a lot of work on" }, { "start": 2680.04, "end": 2682.68, "text": "conservatives being more disgust prone." }, { "start": 2682.92, "end": 2688.73, "text": "Um, but uh, but that was sort of during the days of um, you know, uh John was a" }, { "start": 2688.73, "end": 2693.69, "text": "lovely person and I know he's retired now so I've I can say like I'm not sure how much that" }, { "start": 2693.69, "end": 2694.73, "text": "stuff holds up." }, { "start": 2694.89, "end": 2698.57, "text": "Um is you what is your understanding of that?" }, { "start": 2699.53, "end": 2703.53, "text": "Um that sounds like you guys replicate some of it or at least that like if there is a" }, { "start": 2703.53, "end": 2707.61, "text": "difference it's driven through this sexual um path." }, { "start": 2707.93, "end": 2712.41, "text": "So the the this is quite robust actually just the the self-reports of discuss sensitivity" }, { "start": 2712.41, "end": 2715.66, "text": "relating to the self-reports of political ideology." }, { "start": 2715.9, "end": 2721.26, "text": "What uh John Hibbing and others have published that is not replicable" }, { "start": 2721.98, "end": 2724.86, "text": "is largely, I believe, psychophysiological measures." }, { "start": 2725.42, "end": 2731.42, "text": "So, you know, they were looking at conservatives versus liberals in" }, { "start": 2731.42, "end": 2736.78, "text": "threat reactivity using things like galvanic skin response, etc." }, { "start": 2737.34, "end": 2743.33, "text": "And uh multiple researchers, Ev and Eva in the Eve" }, { "start": 2743.41, "end": 2749.01, "text": "community have contributed this, basically suggesting that uh a lot of what these measures," }, { "start": 2749.17, "end": 2752.05, "text": "a lot of what these methods are assessing is is noise." }, { "start": 2752.29, "end": 2757.73, "text": "And uh papers publishing these findings have capitalized on um" }, { "start": 2758.05, "end": 2759.86, "text": "noisy data at best." }, { "start": 2760.18, "end": 2760.66, "text": "Okay, great." }, { "start": 2760.74, "end": 2762.18, "text": "Well, thank you for clarifying that." }, { "start": 2762.34, "end": 2767.54, "text": "Um, what what is your bottom line take on on like wrapping this aspect up?" }, { "start": 2767.94, "end": 2773.38, "text": "How important is this behavioral immune system idea?" }, { "start": 2773.46, "end": 2777.54, "text": "From there's two ways I understood like broadly, and maybe this is an oversimplification." }, { "start": 2777.7, "end": 2783.38, "text": "One is you have to deal with the fact that pathogens exist while making a social" }, { "start": 2783.38, "end": 2784.02, "text": "living." }, { "start": 2784.42, "end": 2789.37, "text": "And there's another one that sort of says pathogens really matter a lot more for your" }, { "start": 2789.37, "end": 2793.93, "text": "social choices than you might think, even in terms of like interacting with somebody." }, { "start": 2794.25, "end": 2798.89, "text": "So the the first one is sort of like, well, yeah, we have to we make our decisions about" }, { "start": 2798.89, "end": 2802.01, "text": "social partners and then we just deal with the fact that sometimes they're sick or not." }, { "start": 2802.09, "end": 2805.93, "text": "The other one is sort of saying, No, you actually really choose your soul social partners" }, { "start": 2806.01, "end": 2807.93, "text": "even based on cues of illness." }, { "start": 2808.25, "end": 2813.61, "text": "Are both right in different contexts, or is one really wrong, or is that a wrong dichotomy?" }, { "start": 2814.06, "end": 2815.82, "text": "No, I think that they're both right." }, { "start": 2816.06, "end": 2819.26, "text": "The thing is that individuals get sick all the time." }, { "start": 2819.42, "end": 2824.7, "text": "So of course you have long-term social relationships and you don't just abandon someone" }, { "start": 2824.7, "end": 2825.26, "text": "when they're sick." }, { "start": 2825.34, "end": 2826.22, "text": "I mean, that could happen." }, { "start": 2826.54, "end": 2827.1, "text": "Yeah, exactly." }, { "start": 2827.18, "end": 2829.74, "text": "Yeah, no, that's but um but generally you don't." }, { "start": 2829.9, "end": 2834.46, "text": "And I mean, one thing that all three of us have in common, we all have young children, and" }, { "start": 2834.45, "end": 2838.93, "text": "of course, child rearing takes a lot, uh puts you at risk of a lot of uh infections." }, { "start": 2839.09, "end": 2844.69, "text": "And of course, that's exacerbated in modern contexts with you know indoor air sharing and" }, { "start": 2844.69, "end": 2847.49, "text": "respiratory viruses and daycare." }, { "start": 2847.65, "end": 2852.53, "text": "There is something to kind of short-term interactions, interactions with strangers where we" }, { "start": 2852.53, "end": 2858.45, "text": "might kind of approach specific individuals for those types of interactions" }, { "start": 2858.45, "end": 2860.53, "text": "differently depending on whether they're infectious." }, { "start": 2860.69, "end": 2865.14, "text": "And of course, we could try to manage the infection risk by individuals when they do have" }, { "start": 2865.22, "end": 2868.18, "text": "uh cues to infection, even if they're close to us." }, { "start": 2868.34, "end": 2874.34, "text": "Um, but yes, I would say that pathogens, huge problem, impact all sorts of aspects" }, { "start": 2874.34, "end": 2878.18, "text": "of our social psychology and our food psychology and our mating psychology, et cetera." }, { "start": 2878.42, "end": 2884.03, "text": "And uh we are we are going to be able to tell to a degree uh" }, { "start": 2884.19, "end": 2885.71, "text": "which people are sick when." }, { "start": 2885.95, "end": 2890.99, "text": "Um, but even in the absence of those cues, we're still going to be assuming a non-zero" }, { "start": 2890.99, "end": 2896.03, "text": "pathogen transmission risk, just because humans are the most likely things to infect us," }, { "start": 2896.11, "end": 2897.95, "text": "even in the absence of things that we can detect." }, { "start": 2898.27, "end": 2898.51, "text": "Right." }, { "start": 2898.67, "end": 2898.99, "text": "Cool." }, { "start": 2899.15, "end": 2899.39, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 2899.55, "end": 2904.19, "text": "And so what one of the things we've talked about before, in and I think it was, I forget" }, { "start": 2904.19, "end": 2909.02, "text": "which episode, was that something like sex, it might have been with Deb, um, Deb Lieberman." }, { "start": 2909.26, "end": 2915.26, "text": "Was that, you know, given that this pathogen avoidance is a primary thing in" }, { "start": 2915.26, "end": 2921.1, "text": "our psychology, then as you say, certain other co-adaptations or other adaptations will" }, { "start": 2921.1, "end": 2924.62, "text": "co-vary the disgust sensitivity when there's a benefit." }, { "start": 2924.7, "end": 2929.5, "text": "So, for example, like sex should turn down disgust, parenting, like I don't know about you" }, { "start": 2929.5, "end": 2934.91, "text": "guys, but like my my child is the one person where I'm like, I don't even care what happens" }, { "start": 2934.91, "end": 2935.31, "text": "to me." }, { "start": 2935.39, "end": 2938.99, "text": "I just I don't want to get them sick, but like if they're sick, whatever, like I don't care" }, { "start": 2938.99, "end": 2939.39, "text": "at all." }, { "start": 2940.11, "end": 2941.47, "text": "At least that's my experience." }, { "start": 2941.71, "end": 2947.55, "text": "So has there been work in mating or parenting on the turning down of" }, { "start": 2947.55, "end": 2951.39, "text": "disgust sensitivity, which you would expect like there to be really big effects for?" }, { "start": 2951.71, "end": 2954.27, "text": "Yeah, it's it's difficult to do this work well." }, { "start": 2954.43, "end": 2957.39, "text": "I I would say that those things are absolutely true." }, { "start": 2957.62, "end": 2963.22, "text": "It's it's so has to be true based on your priors and based on your lived experience." }, { "start": 2964.5, "end": 2970.34, "text": "I don't know if the the way that a social science study comes out should inform" }, { "start": 2970.58, "end": 2972.34, "text": "how we're thinking about that that much." }, { "start": 2972.66, "end": 2977.3, "text": "But I can comment on the little research that's been done with parenting." }, { "start": 2977.54, "end": 2983.38, "text": "There is a study in which uh some researchers in Australia, Dick Stevenson, Trevor Case," }, { "start": 2983.46, "end": 2989.01, "text": "and others, asked parents to imagine how disgusted they would be by their own baby's diaper" }, { "start": 2989.01, "end": 2991.25, "text": "versus other people's baby's diapers." }, { "start": 2991.65, "end": 2995.09, "text": "And they said that they'd be more disgusted by other people's baby's diapers." }, { "start": 2995.25, "end": 3000.45, "text": "And then they had a smell test where parents actually did a blind diaper smelling test." }, { "start": 3000.77, "end": 3005.81, "text": "Oh, that sounds like a fun study to these are these are like the real hits of like" }, { "start": 3006.92, "end": 3010.04, "text": "So in this study, you will be smelling diapers." }, { "start": 3010.12, "end": 3015.56, "text": "Some of them will be uh the the finding reported is that parents find their own" }, { "start": 3015.56, "end": 3020.68, "text": "baby's diapers smell to be less aversive even when they don't know it's their own baby's" }, { "start": 3020.68, "end": 3021.16, "text": "diaper." }, { "start": 3021.32, "end": 3026.28, "text": "The replicability of that I'm I can't say based on the sample size and the methods at the" }, { "start": 3026.28, "end": 3026.6, "text": "time." }, { "start": 3026.76, "end": 3029.8, "text": "Um, but I I'm not familiar with other research on the topic." }, { "start": 3030.07, "end": 3034.39, "text": "One PhD student and I are about to launch a big study that I'm kind of excited about," }, { "start": 3034.63, "end": 3040.55, "text": "looking at uh these same variables of contact comfort, but having the child be" }, { "start": 3040.55, "end": 3045.67, "text": "the um the target and then very uh sampling people who have children who are a bunch of" }, { "start": 3045.67, "end": 3051.27, "text": "different ages to see if this is invariant across child's age or if this is kind of dialed" }, { "start": 3051.27, "end": 3054.7, "text": "to the dependency of the child on you." }, { "start": 3054.94, "end": 3056.22, "text": "So stay tuned." }, { "start": 3056.3, "end": 3059.58, "text": "We might have some interesting results at some point." }, { "start": 3059.82, "end": 3065.02, "text": "In terms of mating, there's a similar issue in that it's both difficult" }, { "start": 3065.02, "end": 3070.94, "text": "methodologically and then also questioning whether the method that" }, { "start": 3070.94, "end": 3074.54, "text": "you're using actually tracks with the question that you want to be asking." }, { "start": 3074.79, "end": 3079.99, "text": "So there's a famous and perhaps infamous study by Dan Arielli in which he asked" }, { "start": 3079.99, "end": 3083.99, "text": "participants to uh masturbate while they were completing questionnaires." }, { "start": 3084.47, "end": 3089.03, "text": "And they said that they were willing to do all sorts of disgusting things in the" }, { "start": 3089.19, "end": 3092.79, "text": "participants were masturbating condition more than in the other condition." }, { "start": 3092.95, "end": 3097.59, "text": "There are other aspects of that study that maybe make you question what you can take from" }, { "start": 3097.59, "end": 3097.75, "text": "it." }, { "start": 3097.91, "end": 3103.16, "text": "And then there are various studies in which participants have watched erotic videos or had" }, { "start": 3103.16, "end": 3106.2, "text": "guided visualizations, and then you ask them to do disgusting things." }, { "start": 3106.28, "end": 3109.88, "text": "And some studies have found that yes, that's the case." }, { "start": 3110.04, "end": 3112.84, "text": "People are willing to do more disgusting things." }, { "start": 3113.16, "end": 3118.68, "text": "But this is a broader issue in these kinds of approaches of what can" }, { "start": 3118.76, "end": 3124.04, "text": "broadly be described as priming, which is do you should you actually expect the system to" }, { "start": 3124.04, "end": 3128.52, "text": "be designed so that you're in a state of sexual arousal and you're just indiscriminately" }, { "start": 3128.65, "end": 3134.49, "text": "more open to exposure to pathogens versus should this be really targeted" }, { "start": 3134.49, "end": 3140.41, "text": "toward um whatever is elisting that sexual arousal and targeted toward the specific types" }, { "start": 3140.41, "end": 3142.97, "text": "of pathogen risks that are necessary for sex." }, { "start": 3143.53, "end": 3149.37, "text": "So of course, you know it's an open question how the system is designed, but um it would be" }, { "start": 3149.37, "end": 3154.86, "text": "a pretty blunt design feature to say, okay, I I'm in a state of sexual" }, { "start": 3154.86, "end": 3155.5, "text": "arousal." }, { "start": 3155.66, "end": 3158.94, "text": "I'm going to eat that yogurt that expired two months ago." }, { "start": 3159.74, "end": 3160.3, "text": "Not impossible." }, { "start": 3160.78, "end": 3161.66, "text": "This happens all the time." }, { "start": 3162.3, "end": 3166.7, "text": "You know, this could be this could be a byproduct, depending on how general the system is." }, { "start": 3166.78, "end": 3167.1, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 3167.74, "end": 3171.98, "text": "But I would guess that it has uh better design features than that." }, { "start": 3172.14, "end": 3172.62, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 3172.94, "end": 3175.07, "text": "Yeah, No, I love the way you're thinking about this." }, { "start": 3175.15, "end": 3180.91, "text": "And in many ways, um what you're discovering is that the system is smarter than we thought" }, { "start": 3180.91, "end": 3181.71, "text": "it it was." }, { "start": 3181.87, "end": 3187.79, "text": "And that people um in their first pass at sort of laying out the design features uh of this" }, { "start": 3187.79, "end": 3192.03, "text": "system, they sort of underestimated just how sophisticated and well-designed uh it, in" }, { "start": 3192.03, "end": 3196.86, "text": "fact, is that we're not just indiscriminately viewing anyone from a quote unquote out group" }, { "start": 3197.02, "end": 3201.26, "text": "as a pathogen threat or anyone who quote unquote looks different as a pathogen threat, that" }, { "start": 3201.26, "end": 3204.06, "text": "the system is actually more subtle and sophisticated than this." }, { "start": 3204.14, "end": 3207.66, "text": "It's actually using valid cues to uh pathogen risk." }, { "start": 3207.9, "end": 3211.5, "text": "And most of the decision-making variance is going to be explained by more subtle" }, { "start": 3211.5, "end": 3213.74, "text": "calculations of social valuation." }, { "start": 3213.9, "end": 3218.7, "text": "Um, and that uh if if the disease risk is held constant, then the main source of variance" }, { "start": 3218.7, "end": 3224.05, "text": "is gonna be how valuable I find you or someone else as a social partner and whether those" }, { "start": 3224.05, "end": 3229.49, "text": "costs are going to be um worth incurring to get the benefits of the social relationship." }, { "start": 3229.73, "end": 3235.01, "text": "So I I I think it's it's really um outstanding work and and and a huge leap forward to to" }, { "start": 3235.01, "end": 3238.45, "text": "think about this system uh in terms of this logic." }, { "start": 3238.85, "end": 3244.77, "text": "I also think it sheds a lot of light on um rituals and uh signals of affiliation." }, { "start": 3245.01, "end": 3250.28, "text": "So around the world we have handshakes, hugs, uh kissing on the cheek." }, { "start": 3250.36, "end": 3253.64, "text": "Um, these are ways that we signal affiliation with a group of people." }, { "start": 3253.8, "end": 3258.68, "text": "And if I refuse a handshake or refuse to hug or like step back when you're trying to hug" }, { "start": 3258.68, "end": 3261.48, "text": "me, um that could be viewed as insulting, and rightly so." }, { "start": 3261.56, "end": 3266.84, "text": "And I think your theory explains why these are such common signals of social affiliation." }, { "start": 3266.92, "end": 3268.68, "text": "Uh they are in fact costly signals." }, { "start": 3268.76, "end": 3274.2, "text": "You are incurring uh a slight cost of pathogen risk in order to signal that you value uh a" }, { "start": 3274.2, "end": 3275.48, "text": "relationship with someone." }, { "start": 3275.64, "end": 3281.61, "text": "Um and so it is no coincidence that around the world we have contact rituals as signals" }, { "start": 3281.61, "end": 3282.73, "text": "of affiliation." }, { "start": 3283.21, "end": 3287.85, "text": "And it's also honestly, um, I've I've been thinking, I have a pet theory about um sort of" }, { "start": 3287.85, "end": 3292.09, "text": "quote unquote kinky sexual practices that I think also fits in with your with your" }, { "start": 3292.09, "end": 3297.69, "text": "theorizing, uh, which is that if um um doing if" }, { "start": 3297.69, "end": 3303.14, "text": "pathogen risk can be a costly signal of affiliation, it might be that doing" }, { "start": 3303.14, "end": 3306.42, "text": "disgusting things sexually can be a costly signal of sexual arousal." }, { "start": 3306.58, "end": 3311.22, "text": "So if sexual arousal dials down your disgust, then if you're willing to do really gross" }, { "start": 3311.22, "end": 3315.94, "text": "things in the bedroom, then that uh is a is a hard-to-fake signal that you truly are" }, { "start": 3315.94, "end": 3316.42, "text": "aroused." }, { "start": 3316.5, "end": 3320.34, "text": "And insofar as there is an arms race between, you know, figuring out if someone is truly" }, { "start": 3320.34, "end": 3325.79, "text": "aroused versus faking it, um, if they're willing to do disgusting things, then that could" }, { "start": 3325.79, "end": 3328.83, "text": "be a hard to fake signal that they truly are aroused." }, { "start": 3328.91, "end": 3333.39, "text": "And the same thing goes for potentially dangerous things in the bedroom, like BDSM stuff." }, { "start": 3333.79, "end": 3338.99, "text": "If sexual arousal requires you to dial down your fear, then if you're willing to expose do" }, { "start": 3338.99, "end": 3344.35, "text": "dangerous things like getting handcuffed or choked or whatever, then that is a hard to fake" }, { "start": 3344.35, "end": 3345.95, "text": "signal of sexual arousal." }, { "start": 3346.11, "end": 3350.51, "text": "Anyway, that's my pet theory about what might explain some of these practices." }, { "start": 3350.59, "end": 3352.27, "text": "I'm curious if you if you buy it or not." }, { "start": 3352.78, "end": 3355.26, "text": "I I look forward to the BBS paper." }, { "start": 3357.58, "end": 3359.5, "text": "No, that sounds really that sounds really interesting." }, { "start": 3359.66, "end": 3364.86, "text": "I mean this is um you point out something that for evolutionary psychologists this is uh" }, { "start": 3364.94, "end": 3365.74, "text": "this is a mystery." }, { "start": 3365.9, "end": 3369.42, "text": "Why are these types of things uh prominent across cultures?" }, { "start": 3369.82, "end": 3375.02, "text": "Of course there are um uh a minority of individuals um as a as a brief aside I've also done" }, { "start": 3375.02, "end": 3380.65, "text": "some behavioral genetics work And I've collaborated with a researcher in Finland who runs" }, { "start": 3380.65, "end": 3383.37, "text": "the genetics of sexuality and aggression database." }, { "start": 3383.45, "end": 3387.13, "text": "So he has population level data on BDSM practices." }, { "start": 3387.37, "end": 3392.57, "text": "And it's a it's a fairly small amount of the population in his data that" }, { "start": 3392.81, "end": 3394.57, "text": "reports engaging in these." }, { "start": 3395.61, "end": 3400.97, "text": "But that small proportion is present in Finland, present in Germany, present in the" }, { "start": 3400.97, "end": 3405.29, "text": "Netherlands, present in the US, present in Japan, etc." }, { "start": 3406.42, "end": 3412.18, "text": "and uh presumably via independent kind of pathways popping up." }, { "start": 3412.34, "end": 3416.66, "text": "This probably isn't something that's just culturally transmitted uh from one source to all" }, { "start": 3416.66, "end": 3417.94, "text": "of these different locations." }, { "start": 3418.1, "end": 3421.86, "text": "And of course, individuals develop these preferences and practices within their own" }, { "start": 3421.86, "end": 3427.77, "text": "relationships, and they're not uh probably broadcasting broadly their" }, { "start": 3427.85, "end": 3429.93, "text": "desires or their practices to do this." }, { "start": 3430.25, "end": 3432.33, "text": "So it demands some kind of explanation." }, { "start": 3432.49, "end": 3435.13, "text": "And I think that I tentatively buy it." }, { "start": 3435.21, "end": 3437.13, "text": "I mean, it it sounds compelling what you say." }, { "start": 3437.37, "end": 3441.77, "text": "Definitely, I think that their costly signaling has some kind of explanation to play in it." }, { "start": 3442.25, "end": 3448.01, "text": "David, can I just poke poke on this idea, which is that is an" }, { "start": 3448.01, "end": 3452.58, "text": "alternative, because the way I had been thinking about it as like just this is not my area," }, { "start": 3452.66, "end": 3458.1, "text": "but just sort of as like, you know, uh an amateur was that um there's just individual" }, { "start": 3458.1, "end": 3463.86, "text": "differences already in sort of like aggressiveness or proneness to pathogen" }, { "start": 3463.86, "end": 3464.82, "text": "sensitivity or not." }, { "start": 3465.06, "end": 3470.82, "text": "And then if you're getting this human universal of when sexually aroused certain things get" }, { "start": 3470.82, "end": 3475.94, "text": "turned up or down, whatever the state of these other systems are in people, like some" }, { "start": 3475.94, "end": 3481.47, "text": "people are just lower in um disgust sensitivity to begin with," }, { "start": 3481.79, "end": 3486.51, "text": "or when the sex they're sexually aroused, they're really sexually aroused, or the" }, { "start": 3486.51, "end": 3490.43, "text": "relationship between the sexual arousal system and the disgust system is just really" }, { "start": 3490.43, "end": 3493.79, "text": "stronger in some people, just as just a distribution." }, { "start": 3493.95, "end": 3495.47, "text": "I mean, it's sort of boring." }, { "start": 3495.63, "end": 3501.39, "text": "Um, that you would you would get, oh, the disgust sensitivity is so low in some" }, { "start": 3501.39, "end": 3506.96, "text": "people, and there's just like a market for um uh um for sort of" }, { "start": 3507.12, "end": 3512.72, "text": "uh I don't know how to put it, but just yeah, I mean uh uh do you see you're the" }, { "start": 3512.72, "end": 3517.44, "text": "byproduct of just sort of like the discuss sensitivity is so low with the caveat of Josh" }, { "start": 3517.44, "end": 3521.04, "text": "that it's not going to be like a meeting stale yogurt or something or expired yogurt." }, { "start": 3521.2, "end": 3522.4, "text": "But is that a different account?" }, { "start": 3522.56, "end": 3527.2, "text": "Or or is your account that there's sort of more functionality, that it's a signal or a cue" }, { "start": 3527.36, "end": 3533.23, "text": "of uh that's sort of in the marketplace of like I'm uh I'm more aroused by you than this" }, { "start": 3533.23, "end": 3533.87, "text": "other person." }, { "start": 3534.59, "end": 3540.19, "text": "Yeah, so I would so I would make the prediction that people who engage in kinky practices" }, { "start": 3540.19, "end": 3544.59, "text": "will be judged as more aroused than people who are not engaged in kinky practices." }, { "start": 3544.67, "end": 3548.83, "text": "And if we're trying to say estimate the probability that someone's faking an orgasm, I" }, { "start": 3548.83, "end": 3554.4, "text": "would predict that um a a person who is engaged in a kinky practice would be viewed as" }, { "start": 3554.4, "end": 3557.92, "text": "less likely to have faked the orgasm." }, { "start": 3558.32, "end": 3560.32, "text": "And so I would view it as a costly signal." }, { "start": 3560.4, "end": 3566.0, "text": "And because we are aroused by the other by our partner's arousal itself, then those costly" }, { "start": 3566.0, "end": 3570.16, "text": "signals should be arousing to us because they're signaling to us in a hard-to-fake way that" }, { "start": 3570.16, "end": 3573.52, "text": "our partner is aroused and we should be aroused by our partner's arousal." }, { "start": 3573.84, "end": 3577.36, "text": "And that can create a kind of feedback loop where each partner is aroused by the other's" }, { "start": 3577.36, "end": 3581.83, "text": "arousal, which is you know they're aroused by our arousal, and so forth." }, { "start": 3582.07, "end": 3587.67, "text": "And so uh for that reason kinky practices can create mutual uh arousal uh uh through this" }, { "start": 3587.75, "end": 3589.43, "text": "this signaling function." }, { "start": 3589.67, "end": 3595.59, "text": "Um and so if it's just um a random variation I wouldn't necessarily expect it to" }, { "start": 3595.59, "end": 3598.71, "text": "take uh to take on this the signaling function." }, { "start": 3599.2, "end": 3599.36, "text": "Right." }, { "start": 3599.44, "end": 3599.52, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 3599.76, "end": 3603.44, "text": "And the and the argument then is maybe, and this is like obvious when you say it out loud," }, { "start": 3603.6, "end": 3609.12, "text": "but it's that there's design for sexual recipient receptivity in the partner." }, { "start": 3610.08, "end": 3615.2, "text": "And that's the primary target of sort of like this is how aroused I am." }, { "start": 3615.36, "end": 3618.32, "text": "And there's design for gauging that, which makes sense, right?" }, { "start": 3618.4, "end": 3618.96, "text": "For lots of reasons." }, { "start": 3619.2, "end": 3619.81, "text": "Yes, exactly." }, { "start": 3619.97, "end": 3623.57, "text": "So the argument isn't that kinky practices themselves are adaptations, is they're a" }, { "start": 3623.57, "end": 3629.17, "text": "byproduct of uh systems for gauging partner sexual arousal, uh and um" }, { "start": 3629.33, "end": 3635.33, "text": "avoiding uh sexual deception, uh, and trying to accurately gauge arousal and and in turn um" }, { "start": 3635.41, "end": 3639.97, "text": "calibrating your own arousal to uh estimates of your partner's arousal, and kinky practices" }, { "start": 3639.97, "end": 3645.86, "text": "emerge as a byproduct uh of those um of those systems of trying to gauge arousal or not." }, { "start": 3646.02, "end": 3651.38, "text": "And they emerge perhaps in cultures where um that are more sexually uh liberal uh in terms" }, { "start": 3651.38, "end": 3655.14, "text": "of norms and and and and what have you and then they probably are less likely to emerge" }, { "start": 3655.14, "end": 3659.14, "text": "where um sex is more um taboo, I guess." }, { "start": 3659.38, "end": 3660.98, "text": "Yeah, cool." }, { "start": 3661.22, "end": 3666.95, "text": "Josh, do you um this is a slight change of topic, but it's still in the neighborhood is um" }, { "start": 3667.19, "end": 3672.15, "text": "do you ever encounter people when they're talking to you or misunderstanding or" }, { "start": 3672.15, "end": 3677.59, "text": "understanding your theories I think to some people it might sound sort of reductive that um" }, { "start": 3677.91, "end": 3683.35, "text": "well the reason why we have these um uh adaptations is because of pathogens." }, { "start": 3683.51, "end": 3687.11, "text": "Like I think like you know that we we prefer to think well it's like something like David's" }, { "start": 3687.19, "end": 3688.79, "text": "like you know ideology, right?" }, { "start": 3688.95, "end": 3694.47, "text": "Sort of um the idea that sort of anything is driven by pathogen avoidance." }, { "start": 3694.87, "end": 3700.78, "text": "Uh how do uh how do humans view that idea?" }, { "start": 3700.94, "end": 3702.06, "text": "And I can imagine two things." }, { "start": 3702.22, "end": 3707.9, "text": "One is some people pushing against it because they're like, why do why does our highfalutin" }, { "start": 3707.9, "end": 3710.46, "text": "psychology care about something so low brow is disease?" }, { "start": 3710.62, "end": 3716.3, "text": "But then another version would be like, yeah, it's good that we don't like out groups" }, { "start": 3716.38, "end": 3721.26, "text": "because they're riddled with pathogens and like lice, and you know, like obviously that's" }, { "start": 3721.26, "end": 3726.87, "text": "like rhetoric of of um So, like, have you have you" }, { "start": 3726.87, "end": 3732.87, "text": "brushed up against either of those reactions where one is sort of like, how" }, { "start": 3733.03, "end": 3735.99, "text": "dare you contaminate the ivory tower with disease?" }, { "start": 3736.15, "end": 3737.75, "text": "We don't, we don't we need to worry about that." }, { "start": 3737.83, "end": 3739.35, "text": "We're doing math and science." }, { "start": 3739.51, "end": 3745.35, "text": "And then the other version is like, you know, racist xenophobia that uses" }, { "start": 3745.35, "end": 3747.35, "text": "disease, you know, as a cudgel." }, { "start": 3747.91, "end": 3753.78, "text": "So um I'll I'll give a brief anecdote about a social psychologist named Paul Rosin, who" }, { "start": 3753.78, "end": 3757.14, "text": "was maybe the first and most well-known disgust researcher." }, { "start": 3757.3, "end": 3762.66, "text": "In a paper he wrote in I think the 1980s, he commented on how no one was researching" }, { "start": 3762.66, "end": 3763.3, "text": "disgust." }, { "start": 3763.46, "end": 3768.26, "text": "And it might be because when you tell people you research disgust, they draw some really" }, { "start": 3768.26, "end": 3769.78, "text": "weird inferences about you." }, { "start": 3770.29, "end": 3772.53, "text": "Why would you why would you study that?" }, { "start": 3772.93, "end": 3775.33, "text": "You know, you have to be thinking about these weird things." }, { "start": 3775.41, "end": 3779.25, "text": "It's kind of like responses to people who work in a morgue or something like that," }, { "start": 3779.41, "end": 3780.37, "text": "undertakers." }, { "start": 3780.77, "end": 3783.81, "text": "And uh I I've experienced that a little bit." }, { "start": 3783.89, "end": 3788.85, "text": "Uh so not talking about pathogens is actually uh a little bit less of that reaction." }, { "start": 3788.93, "end": 3793.25, "text": "But if you say you research disgust or you're interested in disgust, um you do get some" }, { "start": 3793.25, "end": 3794.21, "text": "weird looks." }, { "start": 3794.53, "end": 3800.22, "text": "That said, relative to evolutionary psychologists who study mating or" }, { "start": 3800.22, "end": 3804.22, "text": "maybe even politics, I think that I found very little pushback." }, { "start": 3804.54, "end": 3810.38, "text": "I think that people are very open to the idea that we have specialized" }, { "start": 3810.38, "end": 3813.5, "text": "aspects of our psychology for navigating pathogens." }, { "start": 3813.66, "end": 3819.18, "text": "I think that it's not controversial or offensive or butting up against other kinds of" }, { "start": 3819.18, "end": 3824.54, "text": "priors or ways of looking at the world or science in the way that some of these other" }, { "start": 3824.54, "end": 3825.34, "text": "topics are." }, { "start": 3825.57, "end": 3830.69, "text": "It seems orthogonal to a lot of other theoretical approaches within social psychology." }, { "start": 3830.85, "end": 3836.37, "text": "And I think people find it both a part of it has to be true, um, B important," }, { "start": 3836.77, "end": 3841.17, "text": "and C perfectly compatible without uh stepping on any toes." }, { "start": 3841.49, "end": 3847.17, "text": "Um, so in terms of evolutionary psychologists sometimes getting some resistance in" }, { "start": 3847.17, "end": 3852.61, "text": "terms of uh scientific, ideological or political ideological reasons, I really have" }, { "start": 3852.61, "end": 3854.77, "text": "experienced very little of that in my career." }, { "start": 3855.12, "end": 3855.44, "text": "Cool." }, { "start": 3855.6, "end": 3861.44, "text": "And then the the other half was like the sort of cudgel of racists pathogens sort of thing." }, { "start": 3861.52, "end": 3862.16, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 3863.2, "end": 3868.0, "text": "Uh yeah, I I haven't run into too many racists that I'm aware of." }, { "start": 3868.8, "end": 3874.72, "text": "Or at least I I haven't um I haven't gotten pushback from perspectives that might" }, { "start": 3874.72, "end": 3880.33, "text": "be motivated by seeing races as differentially clean or wanting to" }, { "start": 3881.29, "end": 3887.21, "text": "uphold the idea that there's some something essential in our categorization of races or" }, { "start": 3887.21, "end": 3891.69, "text": "groups that does have some correspondence with a real threat like pathogens." }, { "start": 3892.09, "end": 3896.65, "text": "I know those people are out there, but they haven't really engaged in my research so much," }, { "start": 3896.73, "end": 3898.49, "text": "and I haven't had conversations with them." }, { "start": 3898.73, "end": 3899.85, "text": "Yeah, cool." }, { "start": 3900.44, "end": 3906.2, "text": "Um, I I was just gonna ask about um some other areas of discussed research" }, { "start": 3906.2, "end": 3908.28, "text": "that may not be holding up so well." }, { "start": 3908.44, "end": 3914.36, "text": "Um, like the idea that we're grossed out by, say, fat people or old old people or people" }, { "start": 3914.36, "end": 3918.52, "text": "with physical deformities or abnormalities that make them look different or weird." }, { "start": 3918.68, "end": 3923.64, "text": "Uh the idea there, presumably, is that this is a kind of dumb pathogen avoidance system," }, { "start": 3923.72, "end": 3928.43, "text": "and we're just kind of being grossed out by anyone who deviates from species typical" }, { "start": 3928.43, "end": 3929.63, "text": "proportions or whatever." }, { "start": 3929.79, "end": 3931.95, "text": "Um, I uh am skeptical of that." }, { "start": 3932.03, "end": 3935.79, "text": "Uh it seems like a pretty dumb way to design a pathogen avoidance system." }, { "start": 3936.27, "end": 3940.91, "text": "But I think what might be going on there is that the reason why we're grossed out uh by," }, { "start": 3940.99, "end": 3946.43, "text": "say, you know, physical abnormalities is that w what it's really cueing is low social" }, { "start": 3946.43, "end": 3951.47, "text": "value, uh, or or perhaps the expectation that others will view the the person as low social" }, { "start": 3951.47, "end": 3951.87, "text": "value." }, { "start": 3952.03, "end": 3954.44, "text": "And that is driving the disgust response." }, { "start": 3954.6, "end": 3956.92, "text": "Do you do you buy that that way of thinking about it?" }, { "start": 3957.56, "end": 3958.12, "text": "I do." }, { "start": 3959.16, "end": 3964.2, "text": "I should say that some of these hypotheses were generated in the the mid to late aughts," }, { "start": 3964.6, "end": 3968.2, "text": "uh, the obesity and the um the elderly." }, { "start": 3968.44, "end": 3973.0, "text": "And there was some preliminary evidence published consistent with that, but again, with" }, { "start": 3973.0, "end": 3975.64, "text": "methods that were kind of standard for the time." }, { "start": 3976.04, "end": 3981.01, "text": "And those ideas, I think, have really stuck around in the literature, but based pretty much" }, { "start": 3981.01, "end": 3986.85, "text": "only on some studies that don't provide the most diagnostic evidence for the hypothesis, I" }, { "start": 3986.85, "end": 3987.49, "text": "would say." }, { "start": 3988.05, "end": 3993.81, "text": "And so there's not been a lot of recent research looking at pathogen avoidance and obesity." }, { "start": 3995.41, "end": 4000.13, "text": "I would guess to the extent to which there is a kind of pathogen avoidance response toward" }, { "start": 4000.13, "end": 4001.73, "text": "people with those features." }, { "start": 4002.29, "end": 4008.06, "text": "It is based on social value or the idea that in certain" }, { "start": 4008.06, "end": 4013.82, "text": "ecologies, obesity is associated with other features that" }, { "start": 4013.82, "end": 4017.5, "text": "people interpret as diagnostic of infection." }, { "start": 4017.58, "end": 4022.22, "text": "So we talked about the kind of skin coloration differences that correspond with" }, { "start": 4022.22, "end": 4025.02, "text": "inflammatory responses in laboratory experiments." }, { "start": 4025.26, "end": 4030.45, "text": "If you're in the US and people with a BMI of 35," }, { "start": 4031.57, "end": 4037.57, "text": "you know, they might be in uh settings where they're not getting a lot of" }, { "start": 4037.57, "end": 4040.85, "text": "physical activity, which affects vascular health." }, { "start": 4041.01, "end": 4047.01, "text": "Um, they're not eating a lot of nutrient-rich uh foods, which can affect," }, { "start": 4047.41, "end": 4053.36, "text": "I I forget the name, carotene, some something with carotens that can affect the type of" }, { "start": 4053.36, "end": 4058.32, "text": "skin coloration that people find attractive in mates and social partners and take as" }, { "start": 4058.32, "end": 4064.24, "text": "diagnostic to metabolic condition potentially, and maybe also contagiousness, that there" }, { "start": 4064.48, "end": 4070.24, "text": "you might have something where you're treating BMI or obesity as a Q2 infection." }, { "start": 4070.48, "end": 4076.0, "text": "Whereas if you're in some foraging society and you have someone of a similar" }, { "start": 4076.0, "end": 4080.89, "text": "BMI, they're only going to maintain that if they're getting a lot of nutrients and if" }, { "start": 4080.89, "end": 4086.73, "text": "they're in fairly good condition and able to resist and have high tolerance for pathogens." }, { "start": 4087.45, "end": 4093.13, "text": "So I I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there is something where" }, { "start": 4093.45, "end": 4098.76, "text": "some features of people who are obese are being interpreted as related to" }, { "start": 4098.76, "end": 4099.56, "text": "infection." }, { "start": 4100.12, "end": 4105.64, "text": "But I'm guessing that most of it is the social value hypothesis that obesity is" }, { "start": 4105.64, "end": 4109.32, "text": "associated with low social value for a number of reasons." }, { "start": 4109.48, "end": 4115.32, "text": "A lot of these for individuals are probably perceptions that other people find obese people" }, { "start": 4115.32, "end": 4116.76, "text": "to be less valuable." }, { "start": 4117.48, "end": 4123.16, "text": "And therefore, you know, you're just not willing to invest in that pathogen risk that's" }, { "start": 4123.72, "end": 4125.72, "text": "present for any interaction partner." }, { "start": 4126.11, "end": 4126.35, "text": "Right." }, { "start": 4126.43, "end": 4129.87, "text": "And what's great is about that is that it's eminently testable, this idea." }, { "start": 4130.03, "end": 4134.35, "text": "You could look at disgust toward people with physical abnormalities or obese people or" }, { "start": 4134.35, "end": 4139.23, "text": "whatever, and see if that uh if the relationship between the physical abnormality and the" }, { "start": 4139.23, "end": 4141.71, "text": "disgust is mediated by say a welfare trade-off ratio." }, { "start": 4141.87, "end": 4145.23, "text": "And if that accounts for the relationship, then that would confirm the hypothesis that this" }, { "start": 4145.23, "end": 4150.9, "text": "is driven by social valuation uh rather than um a uh the uh a" }, { "start": 4150.9, "end": 4152.34, "text": "pathogen cue per se." }, { "start": 4152.5, "end": 4152.74, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 4153.06, "end": 4153.86, "text": "Yeah, 100%." }, { "start": 4154.42, "end": 4158.9, "text": "You know, another interesting thing is that out of out of being very overweight versus" }, { "start": 4158.9, "end": 4164.34, "text": "being very underweight, I would suspect that underweight individuals are probably um that" }, { "start": 4164.34, "end": 4170.26, "text": "would be more similar to the appearance of someone who is uh struggling to handle an" }, { "start": 4170.26, "end": 4172.82, "text": "infection than someone who's very overweight." }, { "start": 4172.98, "end": 4176.74, "text": "That hasn't really been I don't I can't say that it hasn't been proposed, but I'm not" }, { "start": 4176.74, "end": 4179.22, "text": "familiar with the test of that hypothesis in the literature." }, { "start": 4180.33, "end": 4185.85, "text": "On that note of somebody struggling to deal with infection, uh, one of the standing most" }, { "start": 4185.85, "end": 4189.85, "text": "important questions for all evolutionary psychologists to answer is what's up with zombies?" }, { "start": 4190.09, "end": 4191.77, "text": "Uh, have you thought about that?" }, { "start": 4192.09, "end": 4194.97, "text": "Uh do you have a pet theory of zombies?" }, { "start": 4195.53, "end": 4197.45, "text": "I've never thought of zombies, I'm afraid." }, { "start": 4197.69, "end": 4203.45, "text": "And um, because we talked about this Colton uh in his uh I think we talked about Colton" }, { "start": 4203.77, "end": 4206.81, "text": "Swivner uh in the morbidly curious stuff." }, { "start": 4206.9, "end": 4209.38, "text": "Um in just the genre of horror." }, { "start": 4209.46, "end": 4215.46, "text": "Um and right there's like a lot of cues of, you know, this is a this is a" }, { "start": 4215.46, "end": 4221.22, "text": "incapacitated, con specific with sort of a lot of cues of, you know, I I don't know a" }, { "start": 4221.22, "end": 4223.94, "text": "channel edithagan like zoonotic infection too, right?" }, { "start": 4224.1, "end": 4229.14, "text": "Like that's another I mean it seems like a supernormal stimulus of pathogen risk." }, { "start": 4229.22, "end": 4231.14, "text": "I mean, like their flesh is literally falling off their body." }, { "start": 4231.38, "end": 4231.62, "text": "Exactly." }, { "start": 4231.86, "end": 4234.1, "text": "And the zom their zombiehood is literally contagious." }, { "start": 4234.37, "end": 4235.65, "text": "Yeah, they're eating brains." }, { "start": 4235.73, "end": 4238.37, "text": "They're exactly like it feels like a very deep scrope." }, { "start": 4238.53, "end": 4243.09, "text": "Yeah, it's exactly of like a zoonotically infected conspecific who's coming for you, who's" }, { "start": 4243.09, "end": 4244.53, "text": "like got rabies or something." }, { "start": 4245.01, "end": 4245.33, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 4245.81, "end": 4250.45, "text": "Yeah, it it's really interesting because um people who have severe infections, they don't" }, { "start": 4250.45, "end": 4251.57, "text": "move around much." }, { "start": 4251.81, "end": 4257.57, "text": "Um and I I was I was an anthropology minor at ASU where I did my bachelor's degree, and I" }, { "start": 4257.57, "end": 4261.04, "text": "took multiple classes in the the evolution of infectious disease." }, { "start": 4261.2, "end": 4266.56, "text": "And my professor was fond of talking about how people pictured Ebola as zombies running" }, { "start": 4266.56, "end": 4266.96, "text": "after you." }, { "start": 4267.12, "end": 4267.28, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 4267.6, "end": 4270.72, "text": "Because Ebola, you know, it's a hemorrhagetic, hemorrhagic, hemorrhagic." }, { "start": 4271.04, "end": 4271.2, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 4271.28, "end": 4272.4, "text": "I think I'm mispronouncing that." }, { "start": 4272.56, "end": 4274.64, "text": "Anyway, um, it causes bleeding." }, { "start": 4274.88, "end": 4278.48, "text": "But uh, you know, people are just listless, they're laying down, it's not like they're" }, { "start": 4278.48, "end": 4279.36, "text": "vomiting blood." }, { "start": 4279.44, "end": 4282.64, "text": "Well, it's not like there's blood pouring from their pores all the time." }, { "start": 4283.2, "end": 4286.24, "text": "And uh, this is gonna be the case with most infections." }, { "start": 4286.4, "end": 4291.77, "text": "And so when you think about zombies, whether they're sprinting like in the 28 Days Later" }, { "start": 4291.77, "end": 4296.81, "text": "franchise, or kind of shuffling along like Dawn of the Dead, these are" }, { "start": 4297.13, "end": 4300.41, "text": "pathogen risks that you're almost never going to encounter." }, { "start": 4300.57, "end": 4305.85, "text": "When I talk about emotional reactions to pathogen threats, you know, emotion researchers" }, { "start": 4305.85, "end": 4310.41, "text": "might think about emotions varying along the lines of along an approach or avoidance" }, { "start": 4310.41, "end": 4311.13, "text": "continuum." }, { "start": 4311.29, "end": 4314.7, "text": "Disgust and fear are both avoidance emotions." }, { "start": 4314.86, "end": 4318.38, "text": "But the thing with disgust is that pathogens are not chasing you." }, { "start": 4318.54, "end": 4324.38, "text": "You know, viruses and bacteria, um, they don't have legs, they can't travel long distances." }, { "start": 4324.62, "end": 4328.7, "text": "They get in you by you touching something that has them on them." }, { "start": 4328.94, "end": 4334.38, "text": "Um, lions and tigers and bears, these are the things that have their own legs and their own" }, { "start": 4334.38, "end": 4336.22, "text": "motivations to get to you." }, { "start": 4336.38, "end": 4341.29, "text": "And that's where you need different kinds of coordinating affective responses that motivate" }, { "start": 4341.29, "end": 4343.37, "text": "a different types of avoidance reaction." }, { "start": 4343.53, "end": 4349.45, "text": "And so looping back to zombies a little bit, it is interesting that kind of this" }, { "start": 4349.45, "end": 4354.81, "text": "archetype is combining the paths to threat with the locomotion." }, { "start": 4355.45, "end": 4358.81, "text": "Other than saying that's interesting, I haven't thought about zombies beyond this." }, { "start": 4359.13, "end": 4362.97, "text": "Yeah, I think it may be worth just saying, like, too, like this is also like the natural" }, { "start": 4362.97, "end": 4364.89, "text": "selection of like vectors, right?" }, { "start": 4364.97, "end": 4365.93, "text": "So disease vectors." }, { "start": 4366.01, "end": 4371.92, "text": "So like from a pathogens perspective, you can't you have to maintain your spreadability," }, { "start": 4372.0, "end": 4372.24, "text": "right?" }, { "start": 4372.32, "end": 4378.32, "text": "So this is why diseases that involve like mosquitoes can really um incapacitate the the" }, { "start": 4378.32, "end": 4379.68, "text": "victim or the host." }, { "start": 4379.92, "end": 4384.72, "text": "But other diseases that require, you know, interaction, like if you if you really" }, { "start": 4384.72, "end": 4389.84, "text": "incapacitate a host right away, that might curtail your ability to spread, right?" }, { "start": 4389.92, "end": 4393.68, "text": "So like a cold, the person can still get up, walk around and like spread it." }, { "start": 4393.79, "end": 4398.11, "text": "But if you immediately incapacitate the person, then you're not going to spread." }, { "start": 4398.19, "end": 4402.19, "text": "And so that's why, for example, like you know, diseases that are spread by mosquitoes or" }, { "start": 4402.19, "end": 4407.79, "text": "other like vectors that are not the primary host can be more virulence." }, { "start": 4407.87, "end": 4410.43, "text": "So it's this virulence spreadability trade off." }, { "start": 4410.51, "end": 4413.87, "text": "And that's also something you kind of get from an evolutionary approach that you might not" }, { "start": 4413.87, "end": 4415.07, "text": "think of otherwise." }, { "start": 4415.47, "end": 4416.67, "text": "Yeah, that's exactly right." }, { "start": 4416.83, "end": 4422.38, "text": "So uh Paul Ewold wrote a book that uh also inspired me when I was an undergraduate, the" }, { "start": 4422.38, "end": 4425.82, "text": "evolution of infectious disease, largely making this broad art argument." }, { "start": 4425.98, "end": 4430.38, "text": "And arboviruses, these are things spread by vectors or insect vectors." }, { "start": 4431.66, "end": 4437.02, "text": "If falciparum malaria causes someone to just be bedbound for a week, well, the mosquito can" }, { "start": 4437.02, "end": 4440.46, "text": "just go to him and bring the parasite to uh to someone else." }, { "start": 4440.62, "end": 4442.78, "text": "And of course, that's not in the mosquitoes' interest either." }, { "start": 4442.95, "end": 4445.43, "text": "The parasite is also manipulating the mosquito." }, { "start": 4445.75, "end": 4447.19, "text": "Bibonic plague is similar." }, { "start": 4447.27, "end": 4449.19, "text": "So the rats are running around with the fleas." }, { "start": 4449.35, "end": 4452.31, "text": "It it does get a little bit complex with these trade-offs." }, { "start": 4452.47, "end": 4457.91, "text": "Uh, and there's uh, you know, asymptomatic periods also influence this." }, { "start": 4458.07, "end": 4460.39, "text": "Um, how naive the population is." }, { "start": 4460.55, "end": 4464.87, "text": "I'm I'm not really deep in the literature, but I've been told that it's not quite as" }, { "start": 4464.87, "end": 4470.5, "text": "straightforward as we might think in terms of just selection to low" }, { "start": 4470.5, "end": 4473.14, "text": "virulence versus spreadability." }, { "start": 4473.38, "end": 4477.7, "text": "But yes, ultimately it is not a thing that only an evolutionary perspective gets you." }, { "start": 4477.94, "end": 4478.5, "text": "Yeah, cool." }, { "start": 4478.74, "end": 4481.78, "text": "Speaking of an evolutionary approach, and you know, we can transition to other stuff." }, { "start": 4481.94, "end": 4486.66, "text": "I saw you at the most recent HBES, and you had a diatribe against evolutionary mismatch." }, { "start": 4487.14, "end": 4492.25, "text": "And I at the time I didn't even have anything about evolutionary mismatch in any of my" }, { "start": 4492.25, "end": 4497.13, "text": "work, but like since I thought about free will, um, I'm arguing that mismatch is important" }, { "start": 4497.13, "end": 4498.01, "text": "about free will." }, { "start": 4498.17, "end": 4502.49, "text": "But I still think f mismatch is over over uh extended." }, { "start": 4502.73, "end": 4506.97, "text": "But I don't know, do you still have the do you want to give us the the your your take on" }, { "start": 4506.97, "end": 4510.41, "text": "evolutionary mismatch being uh and what do you think about it?" }, { "start": 4510.82, "end": 4512.58, "text": "Yeah, I I think I gave you that." }, { "start": 4512.66, "end": 4515.14, "text": "Um, I would call it a monologue after a few beers." }, { "start": 4515.22, "end": 4517.54, "text": "So maybe maybe it did turn into a diatribe." }, { "start": 4518.02, "end": 4519.22, "text": "Maybe the bar was just loud." }, { "start": 4519.3, "end": 4521.3, "text": "So no, it was all the above." }, { "start": 4521.46, "end": 4523.3, "text": "It was, it was uh, yeah, exactly." }, { "start": 4523.62, "end": 4524.98, "text": "Um, yeah, sure." }, { "start": 4525.14, "end": 4530.9, "text": "Uh so I I've been there's been something about the concept of" }, { "start": 4530.9, "end": 4536.66, "text": "mismatch that has struck me as um uh not quite right for several" }, { "start": 4536.66, "end": 4541.67, "text": "years, and just slowly I've I've kind of been able to articulate a few of those reasons," }, { "start": 4541.91, "end": 4545.27, "text": "although I haven't really talked with people about them other than a few side" }, { "start": 4545.27, "end": 4545.83, "text": "conversations." }, { "start": 4545.91, "end": 4551.91, "text": "So maybe this can be a nice exercise that the audience can also listen around with." }, { "start": 4552.15, "end": 4556.71, "text": "So the idea of evolutionary mismatch, as it's articulated in the evolutionary psychology" }, { "start": 4556.71, "end": 4562.47, "text": "literature, is that we have adaptations that are specialized for" }, { "start": 4562.47, "end": 4565.75, "text": "ancestral environments and are good, are good for our fitness." }, { "start": 4566.78, "end": 4569.82, "text": "But the environment has changed in some way." }, { "start": 4569.98, "end": 4575.58, "text": "And it's often, authors often say that the environment has changed more rapidly than we've" }, { "start": 4575.58, "end": 4581.42, "text": "had time to evolve psychological adaptations or non" }, { "start": 4581.42, "end": 4587.26, "text": "psychological other types of adaptations to catch up, to then behave adaptively" }, { "start": 4587.82, "end": 4589.26, "text": "in this new environment." }, { "start": 4589.42, "end": 4592.7, "text": "And so these mechanisms are no longer adaptive." }, { "start": 4592.97, "end": 4596.33, "text": "uh, they no longer have the same fitness associations." }, { "start": 4596.89, "end": 4602.89, "text": "And um authors often say that this has consequences for our well-being" }, { "start": 4602.89, "end": 4605.13, "text": "and our values and this type of stuff." }, { "start": 4605.45, "end": 4611.13, "text": "And so um, is there anything that you guys have to add to that in kind of the boilerplate" }, { "start": 4611.13, "end": 4613.29, "text": "definition of a mismatch that I've missed?" }, { "start": 4613.66, "end": 4618.7, "text": "Uh the example that people love to throw out is junk food, that we gorge ourselves on on" }, { "start": 4618.7, "end": 4623.5, "text": "junk food because it was scarce in ancestral environments and that causes all sorts of" }, { "start": 4623.5, "end": 4624.46, "text": "health problems." }, { "start": 4624.62, "end": 4629.18, "text": "People sometimes talk about pornography uh as a mismatch." }, { "start": 4629.34, "end": 4630.86, "text": "Um trying to think of other examples of the case." }, { "start": 4635.35, "end": 4640.87, "text": "not to deal with large scale social dynamics, um, whether that involves like meeting" }, { "start": 4640.87, "end": 4644.39, "text": "strangers or understanding complicated social dynamics." }, { "start": 4644.55, "end": 4650.55, "text": "Like the argument is social reactions and understandings are plainly" }, { "start": 4650.55, "end": 4655.27, "text": "for a smaller scale interpersonal world, not a large scale international world, for" }, { "start": 4655.27, "end": 4655.51, "text": "example." }, { "start": 4655.91, "end": 4657.27, "text": "Would be another example, yeah." }, { "start": 4657.74, "end": 4658.94, "text": "So these are good examples." }, { "start": 4659.02, "end": 4663.42, "text": "And I did listen to your guys' interview with uh Daniel Nettle, which I enjoyed quite a" }, { "start": 4663.42, "end": 4663.58, "text": "bit." }, { "start": 4663.74, "end": 4669.5, "text": "And Daniel has uh written about and argued nicely on your uh podcast" }, { "start": 4669.74, "end": 4675.74, "text": "that the I this junk food idea doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, and that um in" }, { "start": 4675.74, "end": 4681.39, "text": "ancestral environments we should have you know, not rarely encountered situations where we" }, { "start": 4681.39, "end": 4684.67, "text": "could gorge ourselves on honey, for example." }, { "start": 4684.83, "end": 4690.35, "text": "And that lots of other animals, non-human animals, have kind of stop mechanisms to keep" }, { "start": 4690.35, "end": 4693.07, "text": "themselves from overconsuming calories." }, { "start": 4693.39, "end": 4699.07, "text": "And that obesity is not just eating too much" }, { "start": 4699.07, "end": 4699.63, "text": "sugar." }, { "start": 4699.79, "end": 4705.12, "text": "There's a bunch of other factors during development that seem to lead people to vary in" }, { "start": 4705.12, "end": 4708.24, "text": "their BMI and their obesity and how they store body fat, etc." }, { "start": 4708.8, "end": 4714.24, "text": "So I think that that is a nice pushback to how some people have thought about in terms uh" }, { "start": 4714.4, "end": 4719.52, "text": "junk food and just our modern food ecology mismatching with our evolved psychology." }, { "start": 4719.68, "end": 4725.28, "text": "Um, but I further question if the basic concept of mismatch is useful to" }, { "start": 4725.28, "end": 4726.56, "text": "evolutionary psychologists." }, { "start": 4726.72, "end": 4728.88, "text": "I question the coherence of the idea." }, { "start": 4729.04, "end": 4732.32, "text": "Um, and I'll I'll I'll give you a few reasons why." }, { "start": 4732.48, "end": 4738.43, "text": "Uh one of them is that you know, if if you take the Santa Barbara style uh" }, { "start": 4738.43, "end": 4742.11, "text": "evolutionary perspective, which both of you guys do, and it's kind of the mainstream" }, { "start": 4742.11, "end": 4748.03, "text": "capital E, capital P evolutionary psychology, it's uh its orientation is to" }, { "start": 4748.03, "end": 4753.95, "text": "make hype uh generate and test hypotheses about design features, not to look at the fitness" }, { "start": 4753.95, "end": 4759.71, "text": "consequences of those design features in any specific ecology, um, especially a" }, { "start": 4759.71, "end": 4762.26, "text": "specific ecology at a specific time." }, { "start": 4762.58, "end": 4768.26, "text": "And so just even saying that this is mismatch because it has a different effect on fitness" }, { "start": 4768.5, "end": 4773.38, "text": "seems to be conflating, you know, some kind of behavioral ecology perspective with an" }, { "start": 4773.38, "end": 4778.5, "text": "evolutionary psychology perspective in a way that's not really furthering knowledge in" }, { "start": 4778.5, "end": 4779.54, "text": "either area." }, { "start": 4779.86, "end": 4785.3, "text": "But further, when we make these claims about a mismatch, no one is actually measuring" }, { "start": 4785.3, "end": 4786.1, "text": "fitness." }, { "start": 4786.95, "end": 4792.63, "text": "So it's not that it's unfalsifiable, it's just never actually tested if it's a mismatch." }, { "start": 4793.83, "end": 4799.51, "text": "Further, there's no consideration typically in what kind of phenotype would" }, { "start": 4799.51, "end": 4801.99, "text": "actually be matched, so to speak." }, { "start": 4802.31, "end": 4805.51, "text": "So let's for a second go back to the junk food example." }, { "start": 4805.67, "end": 4810.71, "text": "Um, we say that our preferences for sugar are mismatched in the modern environment because" }, { "start": 4810.87, "end": 4816.36, "text": "ancestrally, sugar, you know, glucose or fructose, or I'm afraid that I might not be" }, { "start": 4816.36, "end": 4820.92, "text": "getting the terms exactly correct, but they're in fruits that have a lot of vitamins and" }, { "start": 4820.92, "end": 4824.04, "text": "nutrients that are really fitness good for us." }, { "start": 4824.28, "end": 4830.12, "text": "Now they're in these low nutrient foods that are fitness neutral or fitness negative." }, { "start": 4830.6, "end": 4836.36, "text": "Well, is the proposal then that our taste perception should find sugar disgusting" }, { "start": 4836.44, "end": 4837.08, "text": "right now?" }, { "start": 4837.4, "end": 4842.61, "text": "If we just could not tolerate the taste of sugar, is that a better phenotype than the" }, { "start": 4842.61, "end": 4844.45, "text": "current phenotype that we have?" }, { "start": 4844.69, "end": 4850.45, "text": "And are we then expecting, I would guess no, that people who find any flavors of" }, { "start": 4850.45, "end": 4855.89, "text": "sugar to be disgusting, that outcome would be worse than our current phenotypes that have" }, { "start": 4855.89, "end": 4857.41, "text": "their current sugar preferences." }, { "start": 4858.05, "end": 4863.57, "text": "So are we saying that between these two kinds of theoretical" }, { "start": 4863.57, "end": 4869.49, "text": "endpoints that we could have, that anything is going to be a mismatch if it's not perfectly" }, { "start": 4869.49, "end": 4875.38, "text": "calibrated to the best fitness consequences of sugar preferences in this" }, { "start": 4875.38, "end": 4876.74, "text": "specific environment." }, { "start": 4876.98, "end": 4882.9, "text": "If that's the case, are our adaptations mismatched in every single ecology we" }, { "start": 4882.9, "end": 4883.54, "text": "could be in?" }, { "start": 4883.78, "end": 4886.9, "text": "Because humans live in a ton of different ecologies." }, { "start": 4887.06, "end": 4889.38, "text": "And in fact, I mean that's the case now." }, { "start": 4889.54, "end": 4894.82, "text": "But if we think about how the EEA, the environment of evolutionary adaptedness, is" }, { "start": 4894.82, "end": 4900.31, "text": "conceptualized And just borrowing from how Tuby and Cosmes have discussed this, it's a" }, { "start": 4900.31, "end": 4904.47, "text": "statistical composite of the invariances across ecologies." }, { "start": 4904.79, "end": 4908.55, "text": "But this is going to be a ton of different ecologies with a ton of different food sources," }, { "start": 4908.71, "end": 4910.79, "text": "a ton of different social structures, et cetera." }, { "start": 4911.03, "end": 4916.15, "text": "And so we should be kind of, you know, aiming for some composite or average of all of" }, { "start": 4916.15, "end": 4921.9, "text": "these, not saying that, okay, this is how the condition was in the ancestral" }, { "start": 4921.9, "end": 4926.22, "text": "past, um, and our current environment is different than this one thing." }, { "start": 4926.46, "end": 4931.82, "text": "The reality is every ecology is going to be different in some way from the statistical" }, { "start": 4931.82, "end": 4932.46, "text": "composite." }, { "start": 4932.62, "end": 4936.54, "text": "And so both everything is a mismatch and nothing is a mismatch." }, { "start": 4936.78, "end": 4942.14, "text": "And the final kind of point that I think I'll make is that identifying things as having bad" }, { "start": 4942.14, "end": 4946.78, "text": "fitness consequences or matching poorly is not at all straightforward." }, { "start": 4947.18, "end": 4952.61, "text": "So if we think about uh snake detection, for example, so this is the classic kind of signal" }, { "start": 4952.61, "end": 4958.13, "text": "detection or error management theory uh outcome, there are asymmetric" }, { "start": 4958.13, "end": 4962.37, "text": "costs to false alarms versus misses in detecting snakes." }, { "start": 4962.53, "end": 4968.37, "text": "And so the idea is that if you give people some ambiguous stimulus, like a little piece of" }, { "start": 4968.37, "end": 4973.57, "text": "wood that's shaped kind of like a snake, people's intuitive immediate response might be to" }, { "start": 4973.57, "end": 4976.78, "text": "categorize that as a snake until they get more information." }, { "start": 4977.18, "end": 4982.86, "text": "And you could look at that and say, well, our minds are mismatched to that" }, { "start": 4983.42, "end": 4987.42, "text": "because we've acted like it's a snake, even though it's not a snake." }, { "start": 4987.58, "end": 4992.86, "text": "And we've paid some metabolic cost and attentional cost to doing that." }, { "start": 4993.18, "end": 4996.7, "text": "And a perfectly matched psychology wouldn't make that type of mistake." }, { "start": 4996.86, "end": 5001.97, "text": "But the design feature is to make that kind of mistake because ancestrally there are" }, { "start": 5001.97, "end": 5007.81, "text": "asymmetric costs to having the mental mechanism be biased in one way versus the" }, { "start": 5007.81, "end": 5008.05, "text": "other." }, { "start": 5008.29, "end": 5014.13, "text": "So simply, simply, the uh idea that we can observe something that doesn't appear to be" }, { "start": 5014.13, "end": 5019.57, "text": "optimized for the modern environment or for any kind of ecology, it's not at all clear to" }, { "start": 5019.57, "end": 5025.36, "text": "me that that's evidence of the ecology being different or there being a misfiring in terms" }, { "start": 5025.36, "end": 5030.8, "text": "of the mental mechanism, it might be, it might have error uh by design for the benefits of" }, { "start": 5030.8, "end": 5034.08, "text": "having a certain number of errors over a certain amount of time." }, { "start": 5034.4, "end": 5038.72, "text": "Um, I might have one or two others, but I'll uh I'll leave it there." }, { "start": 5039.04, "end": 5039.2, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 5039.36, "end": 5044.8, "text": "I wanna, I wanna, um, your your physical neighbor, Mark von Vogt, uh has has made a lot of" }, { "start": 5044.8, "end": 5045.52, "text": "mismatch." }, { "start": 5045.68, "end": 5047.76, "text": "Have you had discussions with him about this?" }, { "start": 5047.92, "end": 5053.85, "text": "Um You know, I I chatted with Mark a little bit about this a while ago, but haven't" }, { "start": 5053.85, "end": 5055.93, "text": "chatted about uh it since then." }, { "start": 5056.01, "end": 5058.09, "text": "I would be curious, uh curious to do so." }, { "start": 5058.17, "end": 5059.21, "text": "I don't know if he listens to the podcast." }, { "start": 5059.37, "end": 5059.61, "text": "Yeah, yeah." }, { "start": 5059.77, "end": 5060.01, "text": "I don't know." }, { "start": 5060.09, "end": 5066.01, "text": "Um, I mean, I think to characterize my understanding of how he uses it, like my read of" }, { "start": 5066.01, "end": 5069.77, "text": "his work is often he's talking to like organizational psychologists and sort of saying," }, { "start": 5069.85, "end": 5075.77, "text": "like, look, I'm studying leadership, and things that you might not think would factor" }, { "start": 5075.77, "end": 5081.56, "text": "into people's leadership decision making are leaking in because they were evolutionarily" }, { "start": 5081.56, "end": 5082.44, "text": "relevant." }, { "start": 5082.68, "end": 5088.04, "text": "Like, and I think like his argument is the reason to use mismatch." }, { "start": 5088.28, "end": 5091.4, "text": "And I actually don't, I don't know what I think of this, but I'm curious what you think" }, { "start": 5091.4, "end": 5091.72, "text": "about this." }, { "start": 5091.8, "end": 5096.44, "text": "Like his argument, I think, would be like, it's it's code for sort of like you would think" }, { "start": 5096.44, "end": 5099.24, "text": "this would be irrelevant, but it turns out it is relevant." }, { "start": 5099.4, "end": 5101.16, "text": "Like, kind of like the pathogen thing, right?" }, { "start": 5101.24, "end": 5104.63, "text": "Like if you're coming from a business perspective, if you don't take an evolutionary" }, { "start": 5104.63, "end": 5107.51, "text": "approach, then you might think this would be irrelevant." }, { "start": 5107.59, "end": 5112.07, "text": "But it turns out our evolved psychology is like for a world where other considerations" }, { "start": 5112.23, "end": 5118.15, "text": "other than like profitability is relevant, and there's leakage of these other things that" }, { "start": 5118.15, "end": 5121.35, "text": "are in fact, you know, hurting profitability, for example, maybe." }, { "start": 5121.43, "end": 5122.07, "text": "I don't know." }, { "start": 5122.15, "end": 5128.14, "text": "Um, but it's because our minds desire are evolved for evolution and offspring and in" }, { "start": 5128.14, "end": 5132.3, "text": "a natural ecology, not you know, maximizing the the bottom line." }, { "start": 5133.18, "end": 5133.74, "text": "I don't know." }, { "start": 5133.9, "end": 5139.74, "text": "I mean, does that what what what what would let that would be my argument" }, { "start": 5139.82, "end": 5142.22, "text": "that like that would be Marx's argument?" }, { "start": 5142.38, "end": 5142.78, "text": "I don't know." }, { "start": 5142.86, "end": 5145.1, "text": "What what what is the what do you think about that?" }, { "start": 5145.58, "end": 5149.74, "text": "Well I I'm quite sympathetic to this idea that if you're talking to lay people and they" }, { "start": 5149.74, "end": 5155.49, "text": "have some impression that if there's any evolutionary function of the mind, it's to" }, { "start": 5155.49, "end": 5161.41, "text": "figure things out and maximize utility or make us feel" }, { "start": 5161.41, "end": 5166.77, "text": "good or something like that, that it can be rhetorically useful to say that look, our minds" }, { "start": 5166.77, "end": 5172.53, "text": "evolve for one thing, and uh that's not perfectly matched with what our we consciously" }, { "start": 5172.53, "end": 5175.41, "text": "might be trying to do in a business environment." }, { "start": 5175.65, "end": 5175.97, "text": "Right." }, { "start": 5176.32, "end": 5181.6, "text": "My my comments earlier are more how useful this is, this concept is to us as evolutionary" }, { "start": 5181.6, "end": 5182.64, "text": "psychologists." }, { "start": 5182.96, "end": 5188.8, "text": "And uh the the term pops up in a lot of scientific papers of academics talking to" }, { "start": 5188.8, "end": 5192.16, "text": "each other and in fact evolutionary psychologists talking to each other." }, { "start": 5192.4, "end": 5198.17, "text": "And I I wonder, um I mean I'm I don't know if" }, { "start": 5198.17, "end": 5202.01, "text": "it's been a if I'm right here, if these thoughts are sensible." }, { "start": 5202.41, "end": 5208.17, "text": "I don't know if it's been a huge uh handicap to our field, if there's if we've" }, { "start": 5208.17, "end": 5213.85, "text": "lost out on something by allocating time or energy to this idea, or if" }, { "start": 5214.01, "end": 5218.09, "text": "uh, you know, it's just something that people feel obligated to write in a paragraph" }, { "start": 5218.09, "end": 5222.2, "text": "without thinking about it too deeply and then moving on and doing the same stuff they would" }, { "start": 5222.2, "end": 5222.52, "text": "otherwise." }, { "start": 5222.84, "end": 5223.0, "text": "Right." }, { "start": 5223.08, "end": 5224.12, "text": "Like it's boilerplate." }, { "start": 5224.28, "end": 5228.36, "text": "I mean, to straw man your argument, and I'll make this even stronger than what you're" }, { "start": 5228.36, "end": 5228.52, "text": "saying." }, { "start": 5228.6, "end": 5233.64, "text": "I'm not saying you're saying this would be it's it's sort of reflecting a laziness about" }, { "start": 5233.64, "end": 5238.92, "text": "not being adequately design-minded, and that if you take input, output, output, input," }, { "start": 5239.0, "end": 5244.33, "text": "output process seriously, then you you it doesn't buy you anything." }, { "start": 5244.57, "end": 5248.41, "text": "And if you just translate everything into like, here's one account, it says this is the" }, { "start": 5248.41, "end": 5251.93, "text": "design features, here's another account, these are the design features." }, { "start": 5252.73, "end": 5256.33, "text": "You know, you're not really it's not really buying you anything." }, { "start": 5256.49, "end": 5256.89, "text": "I don't know." }, { "start": 5256.97, "end": 5262.74, "text": "Is that is that fair or you know, I'm not saying you're saying that, but is that I" }, { "start": 5262.9, "end": 5263.7, "text": "think it is fair." }, { "start": 5263.86, "end": 5268.66, "text": "And uh, I mean, you guys have discussed multiple times how hard evolutionary psychology can" }, { "start": 5268.66, "end": 5274.66, "text": "be since we have our own evolved psychologies to be perceiving ideas and individuals" }, { "start": 5274.82, "end": 5280.82, "text": "and uh our lived realities in in different ways that aren't necessarily reflecting the" }, { "start": 5280.82, "end": 5282.34, "text": "design features of the mind." }, { "start": 5282.5, "end": 5287.87, "text": "And I I do think that it's it can be easy for evolutionary psychologists to think in these" }, { "start": 5287.87, "end": 5293.47, "text": "terms of mismatch because it's a very lay intuitive way to think about evolution." }, { "start": 5293.71, "end": 5298.99, "text": "And so even if you're being extremely rigorous in one area and you're very focused on" }, { "start": 5298.99, "end": 5304.51, "text": "something, uh that it can be easy to slip into that kind of" }, { "start": 5304.51, "end": 5308.75, "text": "layperson type of thinking in other areas or at other times." }, { "start": 5308.99, "end": 5309.39, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 5309.72, "end": 5312.68, "text": "It's easy to do FSI because it's just uh just so stories." }, { "start": 5312.84, "end": 5316.36, "text": "So Yeah." }, { "start": 5316.52, "end": 5320.36, "text": "No, interestingly, I feel like, you know, the just so story uh might be valid when it comes" }, { "start": 5320.36, "end": 5322.12, "text": "to like lazy mismatch stories." }, { "start": 5322.28, "end": 5326.76, "text": "Like it's easy to tell a lazy mismatch story to explain pretty much anything." }, { "start": 5326.84, "end": 5331.72, "text": "And I think that speaks to the problem you're you're raising, uh Josh, is that this is not" }, { "start": 5331.72, "end": 5337.31, "text": "a useful tool and it can be very easily abused to uh explain anything you want to explain." }, { "start": 5337.47, "end": 5341.87, "text": "Um it's it's the opposite of the kind of adaptationism and design mindedness that we want" }, { "start": 5341.87, "end": 5342.59, "text": "to be taking." }, { "start": 5342.75, "end": 5348.19, "text": "And it I I think probably part of the motivation is um is that it gives us" }, { "start": 5348.51, "end": 5354.03, "text": "a kind of power to say you're wrong and bad and here's how you can be right and smart." }, { "start": 5354.19, "end": 5358.35, "text": "And I have the answers for how you can you know live a better life and you know I've" }, { "start": 5358.35, "end": 5360.19, "text": "discovered the source of all of our problems." }, { "start": 5360.34, "end": 5363.86, "text": "uh, you know, give me status and attention for for giving you the solutions." }, { "start": 5364.1, "end": 5368.9, "text": "Um, I think it's too easy to slip into that mindset of of wanting to have the answers, of" }, { "start": 5368.9, "end": 5372.02, "text": "wanting to, you know, give people solutions to all their problems." }, { "start": 5372.18, "end": 5376.1, "text": "When really what which what we should be focused on is first understanding how the damn" }, { "start": 5376.1, "end": 5376.82, "text": "thing works." }, { "start": 5376.98, "end": 5382.42, "text": "And then once we really get have a good handle on how the mind works, then maybe we could" }, { "start": 5382.42, "end": 5387.54, "text": "start to get into tentative, you know, proposals and solutions to people's problems and" }, { "start": 5387.67, "end": 5388.31, "text": "applications." }, { "start": 5388.47, "end": 5390.23, "text": "But first, we just have to understand the thing." }, { "start": 5390.39, "end": 5395.67, "text": "And I think we too often lose sight of that and we skip ahead to the proposal part of it" }, { "start": 5395.67, "end": 5396.47, "text": "too quickly." }, { "start": 5397.03, "end": 5402.79, "text": "Yeah, I'll loop back into something else that your guest Daniel Nettle said a few episodes" }, { "start": 5402.79, "end": 5408.15, "text": "ago, which was kind of evolutionary psychology 1.0 or first generation evolutionary" }, { "start": 5408.15, "end": 5411.91, "text": "psychology was really popular because it was saying all these things that are obviously" }, { "start": 5411.91, "end": 5417.3, "text": "true that other academics didn't want to really talk about or dismiss away with" }, { "start": 5418.34, "end": 5420.5, "text": "language that's kind of non-intuitive." }, { "start": 5421.06, "end": 5426.18, "text": "Evolutionary psychology 2.0 or more in-depth stuff is" }, { "start": 5426.82, "end": 5429.3, "text": "less penetrable and less intuitive." }, { "start": 5429.46, "end": 5433.78, "text": "And I think there might be some overlap with mismatch in that it's really kind of the" }, { "start": 5433.83, "end": 5435.83, "text": "evolutionary psychology 1.0." }, { "start": 5435.99, "end": 5439.51, "text": "But then if you uh if that terminology makes any sense." }, { "start": 5439.75, "end": 5445.11, "text": "But when you when you drill down to the meta theory and thinking about trying to identify" }, { "start": 5445.11, "end": 5450.23, "text": "and understand design features, the the concept loses some of its appeal, some of its" }, { "start": 5450.23, "end": 5451.35, "text": "benefits and coherence." }, { "start": 5451.59, "end": 5451.83, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 5453.43, "end": 5457.03, "text": "I mean, to bring it back to pathogen and discuss, do you think some of that early pathogen" }, { "start": 5457.11, "end": 5461.03, "text": "and discuss work was a little bit by like a mismatchy?" }, { "start": 5462.82, "end": 5463.78, "text": "Yeah, I think so." }, { "start": 5463.94, "end": 5469.54, "text": "I think that it might be drawing a little bit on uh kind of lay intuitions about how these" }, { "start": 5469.54, "end": 5470.58, "text": "systems might work." }, { "start": 5470.82, "end": 5475.62, "text": "Although I'll also say that I I think that it's perfectly scientifically defensible to" }, { "start": 5475.62, "end": 5477.38, "text": "think about the system being very general." }, { "start": 5477.54, "end": 5483.46, "text": "And that I I don't think that the uh the people working early in this area were" }, { "start": 5484.02, "end": 5487.38, "text": "doing anything intellectually wrong or lazy." }, { "start": 5487.78, "end": 5492.51, "text": "Uh I I think that um it was an open question." }, { "start": 5492.67, "end": 5498.27, "text": "And my read of the data is that there's greater specificity than first assumed." }, { "start": 5498.43, "end": 5502.11, "text": "But I wouldn't attribute that outcome to laziness or anything by those researchers." }, { "start": 5502.51, "end": 5503.07, "text": "Yeah, that's right." }, { "start": 5503.15, "end": 5508.67, "text": "I mean, I think to just say the loud part out loud is my read of that work was" }, { "start": 5509.31, "end": 5515.23, "text": "people wanted genuinely to provide a biologically plausible account of a" }, { "start": 5515.23, "end": 5516.03, "text": "phenomenon." }, { "start": 5516.24, "end": 5520.4, "text": "And you're allowed to say, be speculative and say, here, here's this other biologically" }, { "start": 5520.4, "end": 5521.44, "text": "plausible thing." }, { "start": 5521.68, "end": 5527.44, "text": "Maybe it accounts for this thing that doesn't yet have an adequate biological grounding." }, { "start": 5527.92, "end": 5528.32, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 5528.48, "end": 5529.12, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 5529.68, "end": 5530.72, "text": "But it might be wrong." }, { "start": 5530.8, "end": 5532.0, "text": "And that's that's great." }, { "start": 5532.24, "end": 5533.68, "text": "Then we'll we'll know something." }, { "start": 5533.84, "end": 5534.16, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 5534.4, "end": 5534.64, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 5534.8, "end": 5539.27, "text": "I mean, part of why I love your work, Josh, is that you've you've um led the charge in sort" }, { "start": 5539.27, "end": 5544.79, "text": "of clearing away some of these first pass ideas that um were wrong turns or or misleading" }, { "start": 5544.79, "end": 5545.35, "text": "in various ways." }, { "start": 5545.43, "end": 5548.23, "text": "And this isn't to disparage the people who came up with them, but you know, this is part of" }, { "start": 5548.23, "end": 5552.23, "text": "how science works, is we we come up with ideas and we, you know, dismiss the ones that" }, { "start": 5552.23, "end": 5556.63, "text": "aren't working or that aren't are colliding uh with with uh reality." }, { "start": 5557.03, "end": 5562.55, "text": "Um and uh uh I I like that you have shaped my thinking both on um" }, { "start": 5562.74, "end": 5568.58, "text": "on outgroups, also on on this this idea that uh discuss sensitivity should" }, { "start": 5568.58, "end": 5573.38, "text": "lead you to uh prefer facial symmetry and sexual dimorphism more." }, { "start": 5573.62, "end": 5577.86, "text": "I was reading one of your papers on that, that that turns out that hasn't really panned" }, { "start": 5577.86, "end": 5578.1, "text": "out." }, { "start": 5578.26, "end": 5582.98, "text": "Um I'm curious, what do you think about this idea that uh pathogen" }, { "start": 5583.49, "end": 5585.49, "text": "sensitivity should relate to conformity." }, { "start": 5585.57, "end": 5587.89, "text": "I know this is another one that was popular in the field." }, { "start": 5588.05, "end": 5588.45, "text": "I'm curious." }, { "start": 5588.53, "end": 5592.93, "text": "Has has that stood stood the test of time or has that been shaky as well?" }, { "start": 5593.33, "end": 5595.41, "text": "You know, I I can't comment on it too much." }, { "start": 5595.49, "end": 5600.85, "text": "Um, my collaborator Florian van Leuwen, who also works in the Netherlands, has published a" }, { "start": 5601.01, "end": 5604.45, "text": "like an eight-study paper evaluating that idea." }, { "start": 5604.69, "end": 5609.89, "text": "And my my read of it is that uh this is not a robust phenomenon." }, { "start": 5610.04, "end": 5610.12, "text": "Okay." }, { "start": 5610.6, "end": 5615.16, "text": "But I'm afraid that I don't recall enough of the nuances to comment on it deeply." }, { "start": 5615.8, "end": 5618.6, "text": "I can uh recommend a pivot." }, { "start": 5618.68, "end": 5622.36, "text": "Uh, we'll see how deeply we can get into it in the interest of time." }, { "start": 5622.52, "end": 5627.48, "text": "And that is a different aspect of disgust, and that is how it relates to moral judgment." }, { "start": 5628.6, "end": 5630.12, "text": "Yeah, what is morality and disgust here?" }, { "start": 5630.44, "end": 5632.68, "text": "This could this could be like another two-hour podcast." }, { "start": 5633.08, "end": 5638.76, "text": "So uh we'll we'll see if we want to do a 15-minute now or uh just go for another two hours." }, { "start": 5639.27, "end": 5643.11, "text": "But uh so, yes, and this is a strong pivot." }, { "start": 5643.51, "end": 5644.31, "text": "Oh, I'm glad you did." }, { "start": 5644.39, "end": 5645.51, "text": "I would have, I would have done it myself." }, { "start": 5645.67, "end": 5647.67, "text": "I was looking to get to this topic myself." }, { "start": 5647.83, "end": 5648.39, "text": "So yeah." }, { "start": 5648.95, "end": 5654.55, "text": "Maybe not quite as much of a high-level overview as I did with uh pathogen avoidance, but" }, { "start": 5654.55, "end": 5660.15, "text": "there's a classic paper in social psychology by John Heidt, who uh researchers might be" }, { "start": 5660.15, "end": 5665.11, "text": "more familiar with for moral foundations theory or for his more recent work on" }, { "start": 5665.16, "end": 5668.76, "text": "advocating against social media for teenage girls." }, { "start": 5669.0, "end": 5674.92, "text": "But his uh highest impact paper, and I'm not sure if this has the same impact as the Henrik" }, { "start": 5675.08, "end": 5675.4, "text": "et al." }, { "start": 5675.56, "end": 5678.6, "text": "Weird paper, it's like that kind of level of citations." }, { "start": 5679.0, "end": 5684.6, "text": "But it was effectively arguing that a lot of our moral judgments are not" }, { "start": 5684.6, "end": 5690.04, "text": "stemming from moral reasoning and considerations of uh who's been harmed or" }, { "start": 5690.04, "end": 5695.41, "text": "victimized by certain interactions, but rather by social or" }, { "start": 5695.41, "end": 5697.09, "text": "emotional intuitions." }, { "start": 5697.25, "end": 5701.97, "text": "And then our argumentation afterward, or our just, well, our justifications and our" }, { "start": 5701.97, "end": 5707.17, "text": "reasoning is actually argumentation for why we're having these judgments." }, { "start": 5707.49, "end": 5713.49, "text": "And one of Height's examples really focused on, or some of Height's examples really focused" }, { "start": 5713.49, "end": 5717.33, "text": "on disgust related things because they seem to be victimless crimes." }, { "start": 5717.65, "end": 5721.74, "text": "And he pointed out what, you know, it's kind of a thought experiment." }, { "start": 5721.82, "end": 5725.1, "text": "It was described as a study, although it was never really uh published." }, { "start": 5725.26, "end": 5729.98, "text": "Um, this famous in the moral psychology literature story about Mark and Julie." }, { "start": 5730.14, "end": 5734.14, "text": "Mark and Julie are brother and sister, they they love each other deeply, they go on" }, { "start": 5734.14, "end": 5738.7, "text": "vacation, uh, they care about each other, and so they decide to have sex." }, { "start": 5739.02, "end": 5744.99, "text": "Um, and then in the story, all of the kind of plausible harms that could result" }, { "start": 5744.99, "end": 5747.63, "text": "from this are neutralized in the vignette." }, { "start": 5747.87, "end": 5753.39, "text": "They take Shizan hormonal contraception, they use a condom, they're not" }, { "start": 5753.39, "end": 5757.95, "text": "emotionally damaged by it, they never do it again, no one ever finds out about it." }, { "start": 5758.11, "end": 5762.35, "text": "And according to this idea, participants are morally dumbfounded." }, { "start": 5762.43, "end": 5766.43, "text": "They still find that it's wrong, even though they can't justify it at that point." }, { "start": 5766.75, "end": 5772.7, "text": "So this led to an idea that people's intuitions about disgust are feeding into" }, { "start": 5772.7, "end": 5774.78, "text": "and producing a lot of their moral judgments." }, { "start": 5775.02, "end": 5780.22, "text": "And this led to a small explosion of research in social" }, { "start": 5780.22, "end": 5786.22, "text": "psychology in the mid to late aughts, testing whether" }, { "start": 5786.62, "end": 5791.74, "text": "if you make people disgusted, that increases the degree to which they" }, { "start": 5792.38, "end": 5794.38, "text": "will morally condemn actions." }, { "start": 5794.59, "end": 5799.63, "text": "And so there were a lot of, you could call them disgust primes, people smelling bad odors" }, { "start": 5799.71, "end": 5803.87, "text": "or looking at gross pictures or being hypnotized." }, { "start": 5804.91, "end": 5809.63, "text": "And finding after finding after finding showed that when you make people disgusted, they" }, { "start": 5809.63, "end": 5811.71, "text": "think that stealing is more wrong." }, { "start": 5812.19, "end": 5817.39, "text": "You know, all these individual items that describe something that could be morally" }, { "start": 5817.39, "end": 5818.03, "text": "condemned." }, { "start": 5818.27, "end": 5821.39, "text": "People condemn them more on a liker scale." }, { "start": 5822.38, "end": 5827.98, "text": "Well, in 2015 or so, there was a meta analysis of this literature, and uh the" }, { "start": 5827.98, "end": 5833.5, "text": "outcome was that there's nothing there, that the meta analyzed effect size is very, very" }, { "start": 5833.5, "end": 5833.9, "text": "small." }, { "start": 5833.98, "end": 5839.34, "text": "And if you take into account uh publication bias, uh it's it's effectively zero." }, { "start": 5839.66, "end": 5845.02, "text": "And so this idea uh combined with another line of" }, { "start": 5845.02, "end": 5849.26, "text": "research on um not priming, but uh" }, { "start": 5850.51, "end": 5853.47, "text": "Reports of disgust toward immoral behaviors." }, { "start": 5853.63, "end": 5857.55, "text": "So not feeling disgusted and then condemning something, but seeing something that's" }, { "start": 5857.55, "end": 5863.23, "text": "condemnable and saying you're disgusted by it has led to kind of a backlash against the" }, { "start": 5863.23, "end": 5867.63, "text": "idea that disgust is at all relevant to moral psychology." }, { "start": 5868.03, "end": 5873.31, "text": "And some social psychologists have made uh strong arguments, or at least" }, { "start": 5873.79, "end": 5878.74, "text": "strong statements along these lines, that there's nothing important about it discussed in" }, { "start": 5878.74, "end": 5880.34, "text": "terms of moral cognition." }, { "start": 5880.5, "end": 5886.5, "text": "Um, and uh others, uh, you had uh Leo Fatucci on a while ago." }, { "start": 5886.74, "end": 5892.66, "text": "And he has also argued uh that purity can be just boiled down to" }, { "start": 5892.66, "end": 5898.58, "text": "perceptions of self-control and other kinds of more general um dimensions of" }, { "start": 5898.58, "end": 5901.3, "text": "uh reciprocity and interdependence, etc." }, { "start": 5901.7, "end": 5905.87, "text": "And in some of those arguments, there's been some connection back to this discussed" }, { "start": 5905.87, "end": 5909.07, "text": "literature, although it's it's not a complete uh critique." }, { "start": 5909.31, "end": 5913.95, "text": "I think that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater a little bit too early here." }, { "start": 5914.19, "end": 5920.03, "text": "And so a lot of the research that I'm currently doing uh alongside the pathogen research is" }, { "start": 5920.03, "end": 5925.88, "text": "trying to better under untangle this potential relation between disgust and morality," }, { "start": 5926.12, "end": 5931.16, "text": "which might be several different types of relationships, and try to understand why that" }, { "start": 5931.16, "end": 5932.6, "text": "relationship might exist." }, { "start": 5933.64, "end": 5935.8, "text": "Have you have you discovered anything so far?" }, { "start": 5935.96, "end": 5939.16, "text": "Do you have any uh guesses as to what you'll find?" }, { "start": 5939.64, "end": 5945.56, "text": "Uh so we do we do have some findings that I'm kind of excited about, but um maybe uh" }, { "start": 5945.72, "end": 5950.55, "text": "maybe just think higher level what the phenomenon are that we're talking about." }, { "start": 5950.79, "end": 5956.55, "text": "So, for one thing, we talk about disgust as uh one thing." }, { "start": 5956.95, "end": 5958.79, "text": "It's kind of a folk emotion." }, { "start": 5958.95, "end": 5963.51, "text": "And there's been a lot of resistance to talking about moral disgust because when people say" }, { "start": 5963.51, "end": 5967.11, "text": "disgust, they're thinking specifically about pathogen disgust." }, { "start": 5967.19, "end": 5972.23, "text": "And they're saying that if something doesn't have, from an emotions perspective, um" }, { "start": 5972.47, "end": 5977.5, "text": "appraisals and action tendencies, uh, et cetera, that correspond with pathogen disgust," }, { "start": 5977.58, "end": 5979.26, "text": "then it's not really discussed." }, { "start": 5979.42, "end": 5983.9, "text": "And so, if we're talking about any relation between disgust and morality, that's not really" }, { "start": 5983.9, "end": 5984.3, "text": "disgust." }, { "start": 5984.46, "end": 5989.5, "text": "That's just some kind of metaphor, that's really anger, or that's people being confused, or" }, { "start": 5989.82, "end": 5990.62, "text": "something like that." }, { "start": 5990.78, "end": 5995.5, "text": "So I think that that's really limited our scientific understanding about this relationship," }, { "start": 5995.58, "end": 6001.26, "text": "in which people are really saying pathogen disgust is the only thing important in terms of" }, { "start": 6001.26, "end": 6003.67, "text": "all these things that we could call disgust." }, { "start": 6003.75, "end": 6007.67, "text": "And so if there's disgust in the moral domain, that's kind of a category error." }, { "start": 6007.83, "end": 6011.83, "text": "And we shouldn't really be even thinking about that as something distinct from anger." }, { "start": 6012.31, "end": 6017.83, "text": "My lab does have a lot of findings showing that you can get distinct reports of" }, { "start": 6017.83, "end": 6023.59, "text": "disgust versus anger to moral violations, dependent on whether the" }, { "start": 6023.59, "end": 6028.3, "text": "moral violation impose costs on you versus someone else." }, { "start": 6028.46, "end": 6033.34, "text": "So if you take the exact same action and you describe it as happening to you, the" }, { "start": 6033.34, "end": 6038.7, "text": "participant versus someone else, you get different effects on disgust versus anger." }, { "start": 6039.18, "end": 6043.5, "text": "If it happened to someone else, disgust is higher than if it happened to you." }, { "start": 6043.66, "end": 6047.9, "text": "And if it happened to you, anger is higher than it happened to someone else." }, { "start": 6048.06, "end": 6053.33, "text": "And we further ask participants: what can what kind of motivations do you have in response" }, { "start": 6053.33, "end": 6054.69, "text": "to this moral violation?" }, { "start": 6054.85, "end": 6058.45, "text": "And we divide them into direct aggression versus indirect aggression." }, { "start": 6058.61, "end": 6064.53, "text": "And we see that reports of anger relate to desires to directly aggress against someone," }, { "start": 6064.77, "end": 6069.09, "text": "whereas reports of disgust relate to desires to indirectly aggress towards someone." }, { "start": 6069.25, "end": 6074.21, "text": "We have several studies replicating this finding, also showing that the identity of the" }, { "start": 6074.21, "end": 6078.93, "text": "victim in terms of their interpersonal value relates differently to disgust and anger." }, { "start": 6079.01, "end": 6083.72, "text": "So the more valuable the victim is, the more angry you are, but not necessarily the more" }, { "start": 6083.72, "end": 6084.52, "text": "disgusted." }, { "start": 6084.68, "end": 6090.04, "text": "And when we show uh participants photos of people making disgust versus anger" }, { "start": 6090.04, "end": 6095.48, "text": "expressions and disgust versus anger vocalizations, they make inferences about direct" }, { "start": 6095.48, "end": 6099.0, "text": "aggression and indirect aggression differently across those." }, { "start": 6099.56, "end": 6105.16, "text": "So again, if I interrupt real quickly, have you also looked at the social value of the" }, { "start": 6105.16, "end": 6107.96, "text": "perpetrator in addition to the social value of the victim?" }, { "start": 6108.2, "end": 6114.07, "text": "Because you might expect that if we uh view the perpetrator uh as having lower social" }, { "start": 6114.07, "end": 6117.27, "text": "value, that that might predict greater disgust relative to anger." }, { "start": 6117.91, "end": 6120.71, "text": "That that's a major part of what we're looking into right now." }, { "start": 6120.95, "end": 6126.95, "text": "So um it when when I tell people about this uh research program, you know, I tell them" }, { "start": 6126.95, "end": 6130.63, "text": "that in the moral foundations theory literature, a lot of the disgust and morality" }, { "start": 6130.63, "end": 6136.62, "text": "literature, the ideas are really tied to the content of the action itself rather than who" }, { "start": 6136.62, "end": 6139.02, "text": "the who is involved in the action." }, { "start": 6139.9, "end": 6145.9, "text": "But if you think about, and uh sorry to get political here, guys, but um there was uh" }, { "start": 6145.98, "end": 6149.02, "text": "this was topical at the time when I was giving these talks a lot." }, { "start": 6149.26, "end": 6154.06, "text": "Uh Donald Trump had recently gone to Arlington National Cemetery and had this photo op" }, { "start": 6154.14, "end": 6158.06, "text": "where he had thumbs up and a big grin over a guy's grave." }, { "start": 6158.3, "end": 6163.83, "text": "Um, and you had very different responses depending on who" }, { "start": 6163.99, "end": 6169.99, "text": "you were and what your value of Trump was, your coalitional value and him as a leader in" }, { "start": 6169.99, "end": 6171.11, "text": "your coalition." }, { "start": 6171.35, "end": 6176.71, "text": "And people who um were not in the the MAGA coalition often expressed" }, { "start": 6176.71, "end": 6178.39, "text": "disgust toward this." }, { "start": 6178.55, "end": 6183.59, "text": "Um, and so and people who are not in the MAGA coalition were not bothered by it at all." }, { "start": 6183.75, "end": 6186.94, "text": "Um who were in the who were in the MAGA coalition, yeah." }, { "start": 6187.18, "end": 6190.78, "text": "Yes, sorry, people who were in the MAGA coalition uh were not bothered at all." }, { "start": 6191.02, "end": 6197.02, "text": "Um, and so that has something very specific to do with the identity of that person and what" }, { "start": 6197.02, "end": 6199.66, "text": "their interpersonal or coalitional value is to you." }, { "start": 6199.9, "end": 6205.82, "text": "And you could also think uh about anger having a different relation with valuation in" }, { "start": 6205.82, "end": 6210.69, "text": "that for people who are higher value to you, or people who you're going to have a long-term" }, { "start": 6210.69, "end": 6216.37, "text": "relationship with, directly intervening and broadcasting how you" }, { "start": 6216.37, "end": 6222.13, "text": "view your valuation, how you view, how you perceive how you're valued by them" }, { "start": 6222.45, "end": 6228.29, "text": "and changing that and letting that be known can be beneficial to you versus" }, { "start": 6228.29, "end": 6233.4, "text": "being discussed by them and maybe not directly intervening, but spreading" }, { "start": 6233.4, "end": 6239.16, "text": "reputationally damaging information about that person, that's not beneficial to you if" }, { "start": 6239.16, "end": 6242.04, "text": "that person is a valuable interaction partner to you." }, { "start": 6243.8, "end": 6249.32, "text": "So, anyway, this is one phenomenon of the relation between disgust and morality in that we" }, { "start": 6249.4, "end": 6253.4, "text": "we observe people engaging in behaviors and we often have these morally condemning" }, { "start": 6253.48, "end": 6259.25, "text": "responses, but the affective tinges of those responses differ depending" }, { "start": 6259.25, "end": 6265.25, "text": "on who is affected by the action and who is engaging in the action." }, { "start": 6265.41, "end": 6269.01, "text": "And I think that just saying that disgust is irrelevant to this and we should just be" }, { "start": 6269.01, "end": 6274.85, "text": "thinking about general outrage or this just being anger loses out on understanding a lot" }, { "start": 6274.85, "end": 6276.13, "text": "of important things." }, { "start": 6276.93, "end": 6282.53, "text": "The other body of findings is that when people engage in behaviors that" }, { "start": 6282.69, "end": 6288.48, "text": "you yourself would be disgusted to engage in, we sometimes condemn" }, { "start": 6288.48, "end": 6289.68, "text": "those individuals." }, { "start": 6290.16, "end": 6295.36, "text": "Again, that's a very different phenomenon, potentially, with a different explanation that" }, { "start": 6296.08, "end": 6297.52, "text": "needs to be demanded." }, { "start": 6297.84, "end": 6301.76, "text": "But I think that that is a phenomenon, and it's not just" }, { "start": 6302.88, "end": 6308.24, "text": "representative of assessing people on self-control or assessing the degree to which their" }, { "start": 6308.24, "end": 6312.61, "text": "behaviors harm other individuals, which are kind of the alternatives that have claimed that" }, { "start": 6312.61, "end": 6317.09, "text": "there's nothing unique or important about the relation between disgust and morality." }, { "start": 6317.25, "end": 6322.45, "text": "So I can just share with you guys a couple of findings that we have that I find are" }, { "start": 6322.69, "end": 6324.85, "text": "interesting and supportive of this idea." }, { "start": 6325.09, "end": 6331.09, "text": "One is that we've sampled vegetarians who are a really nice population for" }, { "start": 6331.09, "end": 6336.78, "text": "the testing this idea because they vary on the degree to which, well," }, { "start": 6337.26, "end": 6340.3, "text": "they vary on their feelings toward uh meat eaters." }, { "start": 6340.54, "end": 6345.98, "text": "They also vary on how much disgust they would experience by consuming meat." }, { "start": 6346.22, "end": 6351.42, "text": "So we asked them specifically a bunch of questions with imagine that you ate a veggie" }, { "start": 6351.42, "end": 6354.38, "text": "burger that would have been cooked in the same pan as a beef burger." }, { "start": 6354.62, "end": 6359.02, "text": "Imagine you ate a pasta sauce and you later found out that it actually had some ground beef" }, { "start": 6359.02, "end": 6360.61, "text": "in it, et cetera." }, { "start": 6360.77, "end": 6366.77, "text": "And then we ask them how negatively they feel about individuals who engage in a variety of" }, { "start": 6366.77, "end": 6368.45, "text": "what you could call norm violations." }, { "start": 6368.61, "end": 6374.45, "text": "Some of these are cooperative violations, some of these are hygiene violations, some of" }, { "start": 6374.45, "end": 6377.97, "text": "these are unusually large amounts of eating meat." }, { "start": 6378.21, "end": 6384.14, "text": "And what we find is that vegetarians self-disgust, how disgusted they would" }, { "start": 6384.14, "end": 6389.58, "text": "be by eating meat, uniquely and most strongly predicts their negative evaluations of these" }, { "start": 6389.58, "end": 6394.54, "text": "meat-eating actions, not the hygiene actions or the cooperative norm interactions." }, { "start": 6394.7, "end": 6400.46, "text": "And further, it predicts that independent of their moral motivations for being a" }, { "start": 6400.46, "end": 6400.94, "text": "vegetarian." }, { "start": 6401.1, "end": 6405.34, "text": "So we also ask them: Are you a moral vegetarian or a health vegetarian?" }, { "start": 6405.57, "end": 6410.21, "text": "we have them complete individual differences measures that assess how strongly their" }, { "start": 6410.21, "end": 6413.01, "text": "vegetarianism is motivated by these moral motivations." }, { "start": 6413.25, "end": 6418.37, "text": "There's really the strong residual and strongest effect of their own disgust toward the" }, { "start": 6418.37, "end": 6422.05, "text": "behavior in terms of condemning other individuals for engaging the behavior." }, { "start": 6423.01, "end": 6427.41, "text": "We have further research that's extended this, where we use multi level modeling" }, { "start": 6427.65, "end": 6432.13, "text": "approaches, where we both look at within participant the degree to which they're disgusted" }, { "start": 6432.13, "end": 6437.58, "text": "by a bunch of things that could evoke disgust, and then their condemnation of other" }, { "start": 6437.58, "end": 6439.98, "text": "individuals who engage in these behaviors." }, { "start": 6440.38, "end": 6446.22, "text": "And the relation within participant between their own disgust toward engaging in behaviors" }, { "start": 6446.22, "end": 6449.42, "text": "and how strongly they condemn people is there." }, { "start": 6449.74, "end": 6453.66, "text": "And that's stronger than if you do the same thing with other emotions like fear." }, { "start": 6453.82, "end": 6456.3, "text": "So you see how scared they would be of doing different things." }, { "start": 6456.46, "end": 6460.78, "text": "And then you ask them how much they condemn people who engage in these behaviors that could" }, { "start": 6460.78, "end": 6461.58, "text": "be scary." }, { "start": 6462.22, "end": 6465.33, "text": "And so we we think that there is something here." }, { "start": 6465.49, "end": 6471.17, "text": "It is important, and it hasn't been adequately tested by just using priming studies or" }, { "start": 6471.17, "end": 6473.49, "text": "having discussed sensitivity instruments." }, { "start": 6473.65, "end": 6479.41, "text": "Um, and we have some other ideas as to why this might be the case, uh, but we" }, { "start": 6479.41, "end": 6482.69, "text": "haven't really tested those, but we could talk about some of those ideas." }, { "start": 6483.01, "end": 6483.73, "text": "I I would love to." }, { "start": 6483.81, "end": 6485.73, "text": "I mean, that that's actually absolutely fascinating." }, { "start": 6485.89, "end": 6489.09, "text": "Um, really excited to you know read the stuff when it comes out, and that those are those" }, { "start": 6489.09, "end": 6490.05, "text": "are really cool results." }, { "start": 6490.21, "end": 6493.34, "text": "I'd love to hear you know what your thinking is on the on the why question." }, { "start": 6494.14, "end": 6498.46, "text": "So it's really strongly influenced by ideas that were originally developed by uh Peter" }, { "start": 6498.46, "end": 6500.3, "text": "DeSholy and Rob Kurzman." }, { "start": 6500.54, "end": 6505.1, "text": "And those were, of course, probably influenced by John Tuby and Lita Cosmes as well." }, { "start": 6505.74, "end": 6511.02, "text": "So Peter and Rob, in one of their great papers on the mysteries of morality," }, { "start": 6511.58, "end": 6517.58, "text": "proposed that you might see disgust being moralized sometimes because it could be" }, { "start": 6517.58, "end": 6522.97, "text": "acting as a cue to whether you have any advantage in engaging" }, { "start": 6523.13, "end": 6524.81, "text": "behavior in the future." }, { "start": 6525.13, "end": 6530.97, "text": "And their general idea is that people should be having moral sentiments" }, { "start": 6530.97, "end": 6536.89, "text": "that contribute to shaping or resisting rules that are either" }, { "start": 6537.13, "end": 6542.25, "text": "beneficial, shaping rules that are beneficial to you, or resisting rules that are costly to" }, { "start": 6542.25, "end": 6542.57, "text": "you." }, { "start": 6542.94, "end": 6547.82, "text": "The idea that you feel disgust toward doing something is a good indication that you would" }, { "start": 6547.82, "end": 6549.42, "text": "never do it yourself." }, { "start": 6549.66, "end": 6554.94, "text": "And so there's very little cost toward endorsing rules against that." }, { "start": 6556.3, "end": 6561.82, "text": "Now, going back to uh Deb Lieberman's conversation with you" }, { "start": 6561.82, "end": 6567.67, "text": "guys on this topic, Deb has a slightly different view on this, I think, although" }, { "start": 6567.67, "end": 6569.35, "text": "the our views are quite complementary." }, { "start": 6569.59, "end": 6575.43, "text": "Deb really emphasizes the idea that people who engage in behaviors that other find others" }, { "start": 6575.43, "end": 6581.35, "text": "find disgusting are good candidates for exploitation, and that they're just generally" }, { "start": 6581.35, "end": 6582.39, "text": "going to be low value." }, { "start": 6582.47, "end": 6588.39, "text": "So this could be a good kind of coordination mechanism for people to all gang up on" }, { "start": 6588.39, "end": 6589.67, "text": "the same individual." }, { "start": 6590.47, "end": 6595.84, "text": "I think that that probably happens, although I think that there are probably other types of" }, { "start": 6595.84, "end": 6601.52, "text": "processes in which people just don't resist rules that" }, { "start": 6601.52, "end": 6604.16, "text": "don't actually impose costs on them." }, { "start": 6604.32, "end": 6609.52, "text": "And so through processes of cultural evolution, you can kind of get these as gravity points" }, { "start": 6609.76, "end": 6615.6, "text": "where if rules are constantly or repeatedly being proposed and cycling through, and some of" }, { "start": 6615.6, "end": 6619.01, "text": "them are transmitted and maintained in populations." }, { "start": 6619.33, "end": 6624.29, "text": "And part of what influences whether they're whether they're maintained and transmitted is" }, { "start": 6624.29, "end": 6627.25, "text": "people objecting to them or making arguments against them." }, { "start": 6627.49, "end": 6633.17, "text": "Well, if if people only pay costs in terms of arguing against" }, { "start": 6633.17, "end": 6638.45, "text": "certain rules and they don't get any benefits from arguing against them, you could get" }, { "start": 6638.45, "end": 6644.14, "text": "these disgust-oriented ones popping up quite a bit and being a little bit sticky and a" }, { "start": 6644.14, "end": 6645.9, "text": "little bit cross-culturally prevalent." }, { "start": 6646.14, "end": 6651.82, "text": "So I think that this line of thinking has something to say about the prevalence of" }, { "start": 6651.82, "end": 6657.42, "text": "incest taboos, which is kind of a puzzle because almost no one wants to" }, { "start": 6657.42, "end": 6660.62, "text": "engage, wants to sleep with their siblings or their parents." }, { "start": 6661.26, "end": 6664.7, "text": "It can happen occasionally, but it's very, very rare." }, { "start": 6664.99, "end": 6670.43, "text": "And the actual consequences of it for most people are almost zero." }, { "start": 6670.67, "end": 6673.23, "text": "Um, so it's not good for your kin." }, { "start": 6673.31, "end": 6678.67, "text": "Like if your sibling sleeps with your parent, that has some inclusive fitness uh" }, { "start": 6678.91, "end": 6680.19, "text": "costs to you." }, { "start": 6680.43, "end": 6684.27, "text": "Um, but for other people, it's it's not really all that relevant." }, { "start": 6684.51, "end": 6689.42, "text": "Um, what we should expect is that people really don't want to do it themselves, but to" }, { "start": 6689.42, "end": 6693.5, "text": "actually condemn other people and for this again to be so cross-culturally prevalent is" }, { "start": 6693.5, "end": 6694.62, "text": "kind of strange." }, { "start": 6694.94, "end": 6700.78, "text": "Now, if you do think about the idea that if different rules are proposed all the time" }, { "start": 6700.94, "end": 6705.42, "text": "and certain ones are sticky and people just don't disagree with them, well, if people are," }, { "start": 6705.5, "end": 6709.9, "text": "if incest is one of the most disgusting things that people could kind of imagine engaging" }, { "start": 6709.9, "end": 6711.98, "text": "in, you're going to have very little pushback." }, { "start": 6712.06, "end": 6715.29, "text": "And then people can maybe coordinate around this specific rule." }, { "start": 6715.45, "end": 6721.45, "text": "And so this might partially explain why you get so many rules around uh kind of minority" }, { "start": 6721.45, "end": 6725.29, "text": "sexual behaviors that most people would be disgusted to engage in." }, { "start": 6725.53, "end": 6728.89, "text": "I think that this has something to say with the cross-cultural condemnation of" }, { "start": 6728.89, "end": 6730.09, "text": "homosexuality." }, { "start": 6730.33, "end": 6735.9, "text": "So this is kind of difficult for um us weird" }, { "start": 6735.9, "end": 6741.9, "text": "researchers to completely understand, although us older millennials may be a little bit" }, { "start": 6741.9, "end": 6747.5, "text": "better than my Gen Z students, but Western" }, { "start": 6747.5, "end": 6752.54, "text": "Europeans and to an extent Americans are living in really extraordinary times in terms of" }, { "start": 6752.54, "end": 6754.3, "text": "acceptance of homosexuality." }, { "start": 6754.46, "end": 6759.93, "text": "And when I show Pew research data on the proportion of individuals in different countries" }, { "start": 6759.93, "end": 6763.45, "text": "who think that uh homosexuality is unacceptable." }, { "start": 6763.53, "end": 6765.05, "text": "Um, it's really shocking." }, { "start": 6765.21, "end": 6769.85, "text": "Uh, and you get this across countries with very different economic systems and very" }, { "start": 6769.85, "end": 6772.81, "text": "different religions and very different cultural histories." }, { "start": 6773.05, "end": 6777.29, "text": "And so for some reason, this has just been popping up in different areas." }, { "start": 6777.45, "end": 6780.89, "text": "And of course, it's been transmitted uh into some areas." }, { "start": 6781.21, "end": 6786.54, "text": "Um, But again, you get, you know, China, South Korea, the Middle East," }, { "start": 6786.86, "end": 6791.74, "text": "Sub-Saharan Africa being very large with very different kinds of colonial histories and" }, { "start": 6791.9, "end": 6793.5, "text": "cultural transmission histories." }, { "start": 6793.98, "end": 6798.22, "text": "And so you get this being fairly sticky, but you also have this fascinating phenomenon" }, { "start": 6798.22, "end": 6799.5, "text": "where it's quickly extinguished." }, { "start": 6799.66, "end": 6802.46, "text": "So it seems like it'll never change until it does." }, { "start": 6802.54, "end": 6804.22, "text": "And then it changes very quickly." }, { "start": 6804.46, "end": 6809.93, "text": "And I think that this is also somewhat compatible with thinking about disgust" }, { "start": 6810.17, "end": 6815.93, "text": "shaping rules, in that if if we take the perspective of an average person in a" }, { "start": 6815.93, "end": 6820.57, "text": "society, and you know, the rule is proposed that homosexuality is wrong." }, { "start": 6820.73, "end": 6826.73, "text": "And they implicitly think, okay, I engage in homosexuality, I'm disgusted by that" }, { "start": 6826.73, "end": 6827.13, "text": "thought." }, { "start": 6827.21, "end": 6831.22, "text": "And that's not to say there's anything disgusting about homosexual individuals, but most" }, { "start": 6831.22, "end": 6834.82, "text": "people are disgusted by the thought of engaging sex with most other individuals." }, { "start": 6835.38, "end": 6840.66, "text": "But if you're not homosexual, that thought uh might have a tinge of disgust." }, { "start": 6840.82, "end": 6845.46, "text": "And that might be a cue to well, I'm never going to benefit from that behavior in the first" }, { "start": 6845.46, "end": 6847.54, "text": "place because I experience disgust toward it." }, { "start": 6847.7, "end": 6852.34, "text": "So I'm not going to resist review uh rules that homosexuality is wrong." }, { "start": 6852.5, "end": 6857.37, "text": "Well, if enough people start resisting that rule, then you also don't have much of a" }, { "start": 6857.37, "end": 6862.33, "text": "benefit in saying, no, I really, really want homosexuality to be wrong." }, { "start": 6862.81, "end": 6867.93, "text": "Of course, some people do, depending on how many people in their coalition are saying that." }, { "start": 6868.33, "end": 6874.25, "text": "But for a lot of people, this house could crumble pretty quickly if they're not in those" }, { "start": 6874.25, "end": 6878.65, "text": "coalitions where that rule is kind of a sacred value that's non-negotiable." }, { "start": 6878.84, "end": 6884.36, "text": "And so you can have potentially these phenomena where it lasts at a very stable level for a" }, { "start": 6884.36, "end": 6887.0, "text": "long time, but then can crumble quickly." }, { "start": 6887.24, "end": 6892.84, "text": "And I looked at general social survey data a while ago, and you" }, { "start": 6892.84, "end": 6898.36, "text": "saw very high, uh, very consistent ratings of homosexuality being" }, { "start": 6898.36, "end": 6904.2, "text": "extremely wrong or always wrong or something from when the survey started in the early 70s" }, { "start": 6904.2, "end": 6906.2, "text": "until the mid to late 90s." }, { "start": 6906.28, "end": 6908.99, "text": "And then it just assessment after assessment." }, { "start": 6909.07, "end": 6911.55, "text": "It's almost going down in a linear fashion." }, { "start": 6911.71, "end": 6914.75, "text": "And that's not the case with other types of sexual rules." }, { "start": 6914.83, "end": 6918.35, "text": "So another question on the survey was is adultery wrong?" }, { "start": 6918.51, "end": 6922.59, "text": "And there, you started out at almost the exact same level as homosexuality." }, { "start": 6922.83, "end": 6925.15, "text": "It's kept at almost the exact same level." }, { "start": 6925.47, "end": 6931.14, "text": "And there, that's a rule where pretty much everyone can be disadvantaged by having their" }, { "start": 6931.14, "end": 6932.74, "text": "spouse commit infidelity." }, { "start": 6932.9, "end": 6938.02, "text": "So you should see people being much less flexible in dumping that once there's momentum" }, { "start": 6938.02, "end": 6939.46, "text": "from other people in doing so." }, { "start": 6939.62, "end": 6945.54, "text": "And in fact, we do see, and I'm sometimes um approached with surprise from" }, { "start": 6945.54, "end": 6950.26, "text": "people in the polyamory community or the ethical non-monogamy community that, oh, this is" }, { "start": 6950.26, "end": 6951.46, "text": "getting really big." }, { "start": 6951.62, "end": 6952.98, "text": "Um, and no, it's not." }, { "start": 6953.06, "end": 6957.97, "text": "It's getting big within very, very small uh circles, but it's really not penetrating the" }, { "start": 6957.97, "end": 6963.49, "text": "broader population because people do perceive these costs in terms of their monogamous" }, { "start": 6963.49, "end": 6964.53, "text": "relationships." }, { "start": 6965.33, "end": 6971.17, "text": "Yeah, so just to just to put a bow on that, I think that there is this relation between" }, { "start": 6971.17, "end": 6976.37, "text": "self-experience disgust and your degree, the way that you view other individuals who engage" }, { "start": 6976.37, "end": 6977.57, "text": "in these behaviors." }, { "start": 6978.13, "end": 6984.06, "text": "And I think that part of the reason why these disgust-based rules seem to pop up a lot and" }, { "start": 6984.06, "end": 6989.9, "text": "be a little bit sticky is because of the the information that one's own experiences have" }, { "start": 6989.9, "end": 6995.58, "text": "discussed gives about the consequences of these behaviors or rules in the ecology." }, { "start": 6998.14, "end": 6999.58, "text": "Fascinating stuff." }, { "start": 6999.74, "end": 6999.82, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 7000.38, "end": 7000.54, "text": "Super." }, { "start": 7001.98, "end": 7002.86, "text": "Yeah, really important." }, { "start": 7003.98, "end": 7009.83, "text": "I do kind of lean toward uh Deb's take" }, { "start": 7010.15, "end": 7015.91, "text": "here, and that um I I think it I I totally buy the logic that it is less that um" }, { "start": 7016.55, "end": 7022.47, "text": "s endorsing a rule against something that I find disgusting uh doesn't cost me anything," }, { "start": 7022.63, "end": 7022.95, "text": "right?" }, { "start": 7023.19, "end": 7028.7, "text": "But it in order for for my own disgust to affect my moral judgments, it also has to affect" }, { "start": 7028.7, "end": 7030.22, "text": "the benefit side of it as well." }, { "start": 7030.38, "end": 7034.14, "text": "Like if it merely didn't impose a cost on me, then I would be neutral about it." }, { "start": 7034.38, "end": 7038.7, "text": "But um in order for me to actively morally campaign against something, there has to be" }, { "start": 7038.7, "end": 7043.98, "text": "something in it for me, some sort of benefit um for for for my own disgust to translate" }, { "start": 7043.98, "end": 7045.42, "text": "into moral judgment." }, { "start": 7045.58, "end": 7051.58, "text": "And I think something like the deb reasoning where it gives me an opportunity to exploit or" }, { "start": 7051.58, "end": 7056.54, "text": "exclude or or dominate someone else, um, that that" }, { "start": 7057.17, "end": 7060.45, "text": "benefit side of things might also be playing a role here as well." }, { "start": 7060.53, "end": 7064.69, "text": "And you could make the further prediction that when there is, say, greater resource" }, { "start": 7064.69, "end": 7070.29, "text": "scarcity, greater zero-sumness, greater incentive to exclude and exploit people," }, { "start": 7071.25, "end": 7075.97, "text": "that you might uh see an increase in these kinds of uh disgust-based moral rules." }, { "start": 7076.05, "end": 7080.45, "text": "And that people are just looking for opportunities to exclude people or exploit people and" }, { "start": 7080.45, "end": 7086.05, "text": "are actively searching the rule space uh for for rules that they can use to marginalize" }, { "start": 7086.05, "end": 7091.56, "text": "people because it's in a very zero-sum context or a very uh resource-limited context." }, { "start": 7091.72, "end": 7095.64, "text": "And you might see these uh uh discuss-based rules more likely to pop up in those kinds of" }, { "start": 7095.64, "end": 7096.04, "text": "environments." }, { "start": 7096.12, "end": 7098.2, "text": "I'm curious what you think of that idea." }, { "start": 7098.6, "end": 7102.04, "text": "Yeah, that's that sounds uh totally plausible to me." }, { "start": 7102.12, "end": 7106.6, "text": "Um and I I should um emphasize again that I think that these different perspectives are" }, { "start": 7106.6, "end": 7107.96, "text": "completely compatible." }, { "start": 7108.36, "end": 7114.19, "text": "Um there there is a cost to not moralizing that is independent of" }, { "start": 7114.19, "end": 7120.19, "text": "benefits of exploitation, I think, in that if you if there's 10 people in a circle and" }, { "start": 7120.19, "end": 7126.19, "text": "nine of them have said, I think that um incest is wrong, and then you say," }, { "start": 7126.43, "end": 7131.55, "text": "actually, I don't want to moralize that, or actually, I don't think it's that wrong, um," }, { "start": 7131.87, "end": 7134.43, "text": "you could then be a target of that coalition." }, { "start": 7134.74, "end": 7135.22, "text": "Correct." }, { "start": 7135.46, "end": 7141.38, "text": "And so you could certainly benefit from ganging up on the person who's" }, { "start": 7141.38, "end": 7143.22, "text": "accused of committing incest." }, { "start": 7143.62, "end": 7149.3, "text": "And there's probably a lot of overlap between that, but simply not agreeing with the" }, { "start": 7149.3, "end": 7153.78, "text": "moral sentiment when other people are advertising it or asking your opinion about it is a" }, { "start": 7153.78, "end": 7155.14, "text": "cost in of itself." }, { "start": 7155.78, "end": 7156.66, "text": "That's true." }, { "start": 7157.17, "end": 7161.01, "text": "Yeah, but uh but you but that presupposes that peop that you have the nine people who are" }, { "start": 7161.01, "end": 7163.49, "text": "coming out against it or g asking your opinion about it." }, { "start": 7163.65, "end": 7167.81, "text": "And it it seems like it's still kind of mysterious why people would have an opinion about" }, { "start": 7167.81, "end": 7171.01, "text": "it or ask your you know your judgment about it in the first place." }, { "start": 7171.09, "end": 7172.77, "text": "Like why why do people care at all?" }, { "start": 7172.93, "end": 7178.29, "text": "Um unless they're actively looking for rules that they can enforce and use to uh exploit or" }, { "start": 7178.29, "end": 7179.65, "text": "marginalize people." }, { "start": 7180.32, "end": 7182.32, "text": "Yeah, no, I I think that's totally true." }, { "start": 7182.48, "end": 7187.76, "text": "I mean, another question is should it be your own disgust toward engaging in the" }, { "start": 7187.76, "end": 7193.2, "text": "behavior versus your perception of how disgusted other people are toward engaging the" }, { "start": 7193.2, "end": 7193.76, "text": "behavior?" }, { "start": 7194.0, "end": 7199.6, "text": "So is your own disgust going to be diagnostic of uh of the exploitation" }, { "start": 7199.6, "end": 7204.96, "text": "value of this individual, or is your perception of um how" }, { "start": 7204.96, "end": 7206.32, "text": "disgusted other people?" }, { "start": 7206.67, "end": 7206.91, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 7207.07, "end": 7211.87, "text": "And I think I think like a lot of people, uh, their moral outrage is just sort of throwing" }, { "start": 7211.87, "end": 7213.55, "text": "things on the wall and seeing what sticks." }, { "start": 7213.63, "end": 7217.31, "text": "Like I think a lot of people like rail against things and everyone's like, why you why do" }, { "start": 7217.31, "end": 7217.95, "text": "you care about that?" }, { "start": 7218.03, "end": 7218.35, "text": "You know?" }, { "start": 7218.51, "end": 7222.67, "text": "I mean, I think some people are clever and really gauge the reaction of third parties." }, { "start": 7222.75, "end": 7227.39, "text": "Like if you're if it seems like to me there's design in all of us to just sort of be" }, { "start": 7227.39, "end": 7231.95, "text": "morally outraged and just generate like this bothering me, I'm gonna say it out loud, but" }, { "start": 7231.95, "end": 7237.7, "text": "there's another um subset of people who are sort of like, um, I'm gonna look and" }, { "start": 7237.7, "end": 7243.7, "text": "see what gets reaction from people, like a politician, whether explicitly a" }, { "start": 7243.7, "end": 7244.58, "text": "politician or not." }, { "start": 7244.74, "end": 7250.66, "text": "And that seems like it's a um a strategy uh of people, and there's real sensitivity to like" }, { "start": 7250.74, "end": 7252.5, "text": "what I'm getting a response from and not." }, { "start": 7252.66, "end": 7258.5, "text": "And those are the people who are sort of like internalize the the ambient cultural" }, { "start": 7258.5, "end": 7261.86, "text": "reactions of people, but may not may not feel them themselves." }, { "start": 7262.18, "end": 7262.58, "text": "Mm-hmm." }, { "start": 7262.98, "end": 7263.22, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 7263.38, "end": 7267.89, "text": "No, that's a that's a good example of of a case where someone would actively benefit from" }, { "start": 7267.97, "end": 7273.97, "text": "from the rule, um, like a politician who might rise to power by uh demonizing uh say" }, { "start": 7274.05, "end": 7276.93, "text": "a group a group of people or a disgusting practice." }, { "start": 7277.17, "end": 7283.17, "text": "Um I it it seems that you could test um the the deb perspective by seeing if" }, { "start": 7283.33, "end": 7288.6, "text": "say dark triad traits um uh interact with" }, { "start": 7288.84, "end": 7294.52, "text": "personal disgust uh to predict moral condemnation such that um I'm more" }, { "start": 7294.52, "end": 7300.28, "text": "likely to to moralize um behaviors I find disgusting if I'm a" }, { "start": 7300.44, "end": 7305.0, "text": "high dark triad person who's looking for opportunities to exploit people or to aggress" }, { "start": 7305.0, "end": 7305.8, "text": "against people." }, { "start": 7305.96, "end": 7311.32, "text": "Uh and uh it seems like that would be a a a prediction entailed by by the deb" }, { "start": 7311.48, "end": 7312.04, "text": "perspective." }, { "start": 7312.59, "end": 7314.59, "text": "Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thought." }, { "start": 7314.75, "end": 7320.43, "text": "Um, going back to John Heid's work and moral foundations theory, um, the" }, { "start": 7320.43, "end": 7325.47, "text": "idea there is that people vary in the degree to which they prioritize these different kinds" }, { "start": 7325.47, "end": 7328.75, "text": "of domains in terms of making their moral judgments." }, { "start": 7328.99, "end": 7334.43, "text": "And some people prioritize purity more in deciding whether or not something is" }, { "start": 7334.43, "end": 7335.07, "text": "wrong." }, { "start": 7335.31, "end": 7340.4, "text": "And, you know, I think that you can uh, regardless of whether the categorization of moral" }, { "start": 7340.4, "end": 7346.4, "text": "domains or or that idea is correct, it is recognizable that um, you know, you could have" }, { "start": 7346.4, "end": 7352.4, "text": "two people who are uh equally disgusted by yeah, engaging" }, { "start": 7352.4, "end": 7356.48, "text": "in some kind of sexual practice, and one of them is going to strongly morally condemn" }, { "start": 7356.48, "end": 7361.36, "text": "someone, and another person is going to say, uh, live and let live, or this is not my" }, { "start": 7361.36, "end": 7361.76, "text": "business." }, { "start": 7361.92, "end": 7366.25, "text": "And understanding what separates those people in terms of personality variation, which" }, { "start": 7366.25, "end": 7372.17, "text": "you've referred to, um Pinsoff, or um kind of broader strategic" }, { "start": 7372.17, "end": 7376.97, "text": "orientations based on uh exploitation versus cooperation." }, { "start": 7377.37, "end": 7382.17, "text": "There's also a thing of it's not just exploitation of certain outgroups, it even happens" }, { "start": 7382.17, "end": 7383.13, "text": "within an individual." }, { "start": 7383.29, "end": 7387.29, "text": "Like I'm thinking like religious beliefs, where we are to sort of say, all of us are" }, { "start": 7387.29, "end": 7393.2, "text": "sinners, we all have bad parts of us, And I'm broadcasting an idea of we all" }, { "start": 7393.2, "end": 7395.52, "text": "have temptations to do the wrong thing." }, { "start": 7395.68, "end": 7400.4, "text": "And I'm signaling we're all going to coordinate about the right thing to do." }, { "start": 7400.56, "end": 7406.24, "text": "So the moralization is sort of like there's a counterfactual world where we all do the" }, { "start": 7406.24, "end": 7407.44, "text": "wrong thing." }, { "start": 7407.68, "end": 7413.12, "text": "But I'm going to sort of um broadcast, we're going to curtail that in" }, { "start": 7413.36, "end": 7416.85, "text": "ourselves, but instead do this other thing." }, { "start": 7417.09, "end": 7421.89, "text": "Um, and I think that also could be a benefit, David, without exploiting anybody, where it's" }, { "start": 7421.89, "end": 7427.41, "text": "sort of the what we're moralizing is we might all do the wrong" }, { "start": 7427.41, "end": 7433.41, "text": "thing, but I am advertising this is a way to be better" }, { "start": 7433.65, "end": 7439.01, "text": "or get better stuff or do the right thing, which is something organisms should care about." }, { "start": 7439.41, "end": 7443.76, "text": "Um, But I get some benefits by being the leader of that." }, { "start": 7443.92, "end": 7445.2, "text": "You might defer to me." }, { "start": 7445.6, "end": 7446.56, "text": "I might have status." }, { "start": 7446.72, "end": 7450.48, "text": "I might say, look, we've all had bad things happen to us." }, { "start": 7450.64, "end": 7452.88, "text": "I'm going to show you the right way to do things." }, { "start": 7453.12, "end": 7459.12, "text": "And so the moralization of what's bad may not be individuals that we exclude." }, { "start": 7459.28, "end": 7462.32, "text": "It might be the paths that we might all take." }, { "start": 7462.57, "end": 7466.01, "text": "And I'm going to say we might fall into moral badness." }, { "start": 7466.17, "end": 7468.09, "text": "We might get bad outcomes." }, { "start": 7468.33, "end": 7473.13, "text": "Listen to me, and I will guide you to the morally superior outcome." }, { "start": 7473.37, "end": 7474.73, "text": "I think that's also a trope." }, { "start": 7474.89, "end": 7480.81, "text": "And that and that can involve even not in excluding anybody per se, but just up paths" }, { "start": 7480.81, "end": 7485.61, "text": "of policy or or paths individuals might take, even within our own group." }, { "start": 7486.0, "end": 7486.32, "text": "Hmm." }, { "start": 7486.48, "end": 7487.52, "text": "I I like that way of thinking." }, { "start": 7487.6, "end": 7492.56, "text": "So insofar as you care more about the right non-disgusting thing to do, you might be more" }, { "start": 7492.56, "end": 7496.56, "text": "likely to moralize the disgusting wrong thing to do." }, { "start": 7496.8, "end": 7502.4, "text": "And that say if I if I care more about a certain type of of sexual" }, { "start": 7502.4, "end": 7507.6, "text": "strategy and and and I view that as the right path and I and I I really care about" }, { "start": 7507.6, "end": 7511.04, "text": "coordinating around that particular sexual strategy, I'm going to be more likely to" }, { "start": 7511.04, "end": 7517.01, "text": "moralize anything that is is outside of that sexual strategy or or deviant" }, { "start": 7517.01, "end": 7517.65, "text": "from it." }, { "start": 7517.81, "end": 7520.69, "text": "Um whereas if I don't know Yeah, or even the reverse." }, { "start": 7520.77, "end": 7523.65, "text": "It's just like the question is like, what would the benefit be?" }, { "start": 7523.81, "end": 7527.73, "text": "How would I benefit from moralizing that doesn't involve excluding somebody?" }, { "start": 7527.97, "end": 7533.49, "text": "And it would just be that I just do the calculation of I want to have high status, I want" }, { "start": 7533.49, "end": 7535.97, "text": "to be listened to, I don't want to exclude anybody." }, { "start": 7536.13, "end": 7537.89, "text": "How can I square that circle?" }, { "start": 7538.05, "end": 7543.72, "text": "Well, I'm just gonna say, look, everybody who I'm not I'm not excluding anybody, but I'm" }, { "start": 7543.72, "end": 7549.24, "text": "just sort of saying, look, you should listen to me because there's a class of" }, { "start": 7549.24, "end": 7553.88, "text": "outcomes that we might all engage in that are disgusting or morally bad." }, { "start": 7554.12, "end": 7557.56, "text": "But I can give you a way to avoid that." }, { "start": 7557.88, "end": 7563.72, "text": "Um so it's just an example of so you might not even like care about the thing," }, { "start": 7563.8, "end": 7569.24, "text": "but it's just you're like, okay, this is a way to get status without excluding anybody." }, { "start": 7569.4, "end": 7575.39, "text": "Um, But still using that cudgel of disgust and moralization as a way to get" }, { "start": 7575.39, "end": 7577.95, "text": "your own status uh achieved." }, { "start": 7579.39, "end": 7580.67, "text": "Yeah, that makes sense." }, { "start": 7580.91, "end": 7585.47, "text": "Um we've been going on for so long, but I want to just get one last question because I've" }, { "start": 7585.47, "end": 7590.11, "text": "been thinking about I've I've been thinking about um alliances and and the role they might" }, { "start": 7590.11, "end": 7591.3, "text": "play in disgust." }, { "start": 7591.54, "end": 7595.54, "text": "Uh, and so I've been doing some some math modeling work on the simple majority game, which" }, { "start": 7595.54, "end": 7599.78, "text": "is a three-player game where or or three or more where a subset of players coordinate to" }, { "start": 7599.78, "end": 7603.94, "text": "receive a benefit while uh the outsider to that subset incurs a cost." }, { "start": 7604.1, "end": 7607.94, "text": "And so it's basically a coordination game, uh, where you can coordinate to get a benefit," }, { "start": 7608.1, "end": 7610.82, "text": "and whoever is outside of the subset incurs a cost." }, { "start": 7610.98, "end": 7613.46, "text": "Uh, and there are a number of situations that might apply to." }, { "start": 7613.62, "end": 7618.02, "text": "Say there's a communal resource, we could form an alliance and exclude uh one or more" }, { "start": 7618.02, "end": 7621.13, "text": "people from that resource to get a higher share of it for ourselves." }, { "start": 7622.57, "end": 7627.45, "text": "If we all have our own private resources, two of us could gang up on someone and take their" }, { "start": 7627.45, "end": 7629.29, "text": "resource, assuming they submit to us." }, { "start": 7629.69, "end": 7632.01, "text": "These are all kind of versions of the simple majority game." }, { "start": 7632.09, "end": 7636.65, "text": "And I I'm thinking of another of a bunch of different examples of this, how this would play" }, { "start": 7636.65, "end": 7636.89, "text": "out." }, { "start": 7637.13, "end": 7642.09, "text": "But one one thing I've discovered is that there are a lot of uh ESSs or evolutionarily" }, { "start": 7642.09, "end": 7645.29, "text": "stable strategies in this game that relate to what I call transitivity." }, { "start": 7645.45, "end": 7650.62, "text": "So the uh the friend of my friend is my friend, The enemy of my friend is my enemy." }, { "start": 7651.26, "end": 7654.3, "text": "The uh friend of my enemy is my enemy." }, { "start": 7654.78, "end": 7656.62, "text": "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." }, { "start": 7656.86, "end": 7662.38, "text": "So these are all uh ESSs in the simple majority game because they um facilitate" }, { "start": 7662.46, "end": 7663.9, "text": "coordination on an alliance." }, { "start": 7664.06, "end": 7668.06, "text": "It's much easier for me to coordinate on an alliance with you if we share the same enemies" }, { "start": 7668.06, "end": 7669.58, "text": "and share the same friends, right?" }, { "start": 7669.66, "end": 7673.39, "text": "If we have different enemies and different friends, uh were going to disagree about what" }, { "start": 7673.39, "end": 7678.03, "text": "alliance we prefer, about who we prefer to be an insider and who we prefer to be an" }, { "start": 7678.03, "end": 7678.83, "text": "outsider." }, { "start": 7679.63, "end": 7685.63, "text": "And so because of these transitivity rules, that creates a kind" }, { "start": 7685.63, "end": 7691.63, "text": "of social contagion, such that if I uh do something that signals my enmity toward the" }, { "start": 7691.63, "end": 7696.91, "text": "group or disloyalty to the group, um that not only means that you should um oppose me, you" }, { "start": 7696.91, "end": 7698.86, "text": "should oppose anyone who supports me." }, { "start": 7699.26, "end": 7703.9, "text": "And if we use cues of similarity as cues of allegiance, then you might also want to oppose" }, { "start": 7703.9, "end": 7707.82, "text": "anything that's similar to me, or that suggests that you're similar to me, or that suggests" }, { "start": 7707.82, "end": 7713.66, "text": "that you're maybe even if you're a family member of me, uh my uh norm violation might" }, { "start": 7713.66, "end": 7717.58, "text": "contaminate to my family members because they're going to be viewed as my friends." }, { "start": 7717.82, "end": 7721.66, "text": "And um, from the group's perspective, the friend of my enemy is my enemy." }, { "start": 7722.01, "end": 7722.49, "text": "Right." }, { "start": 7722.65, "end": 7728.65, "text": "And so because uh of these alliance dynamics, when you do anything that" }, { "start": 7728.65, "end": 7732.73, "text": "uh signals disloyalty or enmity toward a group of people, it creates a kind of contagion" }, { "start": 7732.73, "end": 7738.01, "text": "where everyone is rushing to signal that they oppose that person and anyone or anything who" }, { "start": 7738.01, "end": 7742.84, "text": "is associated with that person, which is isomorphic to the logic of contagion, right?" }, { "start": 7743.16, "end": 7747.56, "text": "In the same way, if that person is contagious, you also want to avoid that person and avoid" }, { "start": 7747.56, "end": 7752.28, "text": "anyone who has made contact with them and avoid any objects that have been in contact with" }, { "start": 7752.28, "end": 7752.76, "text": "that person." }, { "start": 7752.92, "end": 7758.76, "text": "And so because the logic of contagion is similar with alliances and with pathogens," }, { "start": 7758.84, "end": 7763.24, "text": "um, it would have been a very ideal motion, a motion to co-opt by natural selection to" }, { "start": 7763.24, "end": 7767.72, "text": "serve this new function of dealing with social contagion uh as opposed to pathogen" }, { "start": 7767.72, "end": 7768.2, "text": "contagion." }, { "start": 7768.36, "end": 7773.73, "text": "I think this might uh explain some of the uh properties of moral disgust and that it's" }, { "start": 7773.73, "end": 7778.53, "text": "geared toward um the the kind of contagion that can flow through a social network when a" }, { "start": 7778.53, "end": 7782.53, "text": "moral violation is committed or when a signal of disloyalty is sent." }, { "start": 7783.25, "end": 7786.45, "text": "And so I'm curious what what you think of that logic and whether that fits in with some of" }, { "start": 7786.45, "end": 7789.57, "text": "your research on on moral disgust." }, { "start": 7790.13, "end": 7794.05, "text": "Yeah, what what you say about the common properties with physical contamination and" }, { "start": 7794.05, "end": 7795.81, "text": "contagion makes a lot of sense to me." }, { "start": 7795.98, "end": 7801.58, "text": "And uh, you know, I what I really like about that, um, David, is uh you've taken" }, { "start": 7801.58, "end": 7805.98, "text": "something that kind of when you don't think too hard about it makes sense and you've kind" }, { "start": 7805.98, "end": 7809.02, "text": "of laid a foundation to understand it more systematically." }, { "start": 7809.26, "end": 7815.1, "text": "Um there are critical differences, of course, in that uh" }, { "start": 7815.34, "end": 7821.18, "text": "with pathogen disgust, it really is about physical contact versus with moral disgust," }, { "start": 7821.34, "end": 7827.21, "text": "um not so much, but it is maybe about being seen associating with the individual," }, { "start": 7827.29, "end": 7828.01, "text": "as you suggest." }, { "start": 7828.17, "end": 7834.09, "text": "Now, if we think about the types of uh behavioral motivations that we've observed that are" }, { "start": 7834.09, "end": 7840.01, "text": "corresponding with reports of disgust versus reports of anger, um these" }, { "start": 7840.25, "end": 7845.29, "text": "are related to indirect aggression, uh, damaging the person's reputation, gossiping about" }, { "start": 7845.29, "end": 7848.01, "text": "them, letting people know what they've done." }, { "start": 7848.38, "end": 7854.3, "text": "And we've mostly been thinking about those things in terms of imposing costs on the" }, { "start": 7854.3, "end": 7855.26, "text": "individual." }, { "start": 7855.74, "end": 7861.1, "text": "But uh gossip could also be protecting you from" }, { "start": 7861.42, "end": 7867.02, "text": "inferences from others that you agree or that you're uh an ally of that" }, { "start": 7867.02, "end": 7867.66, "text": "target." }, { "start": 7868.06, "end": 7873.93, "text": "Um And uh, you know, oftentimes when people think about moral disgust versus" }, { "start": 7873.93, "end": 7879.37, "text": "pathogen disgust, the reason why there's a common word is that there is some commonality in" }, { "start": 7879.37, "end": 7883.45, "text": "the phenomenology, and there's some overlap in the facial expressions." }, { "start": 7883.61, "end": 7889.05, "text": "Um, so, and of course, this gets encoded in language and it's not unique to English as" }, { "start": 7889.05, "end": 7889.37, "text": "well." }, { "start": 7889.69, "end": 7894.65, "text": "Um, and so a question is is there something that's sufficiently overlapping in the in the" }, { "start": 7894.65, "end": 7899.26, "text": "phenomenology that's reflecting both of those functions, the the" }, { "start": 7899.9, "end": 7905.9, "text": "contamination avoidance, the contagion avoidance in terms of physical properties versus the" }, { "start": 7905.9, "end": 7911.9, "text": "contamination avoidance uh in terms of alliance detection or or cooperation." }, { "start": 7912.3, "end": 7915.02, "text": "Um I I'm I'm not sure." }, { "start": 7915.1, "end": 7916.46, "text": "You know, I don't have an answer to that." }, { "start": 7916.62, "end": 7922.43, "text": "What the function of the phenomenology, if there is one in terms of uh discussed in the" }, { "start": 7922.43, "end": 7923.23, "text": "moral realm." }, { "start": 7923.63, "end": 7929.55, "text": "In terms of facial expression or vocal expression, that could be co-opted pretty easily, I" }, { "start": 7929.55, "end": 7935.47, "text": "think, if there's a signal of contagion physically, that then people can" }, { "start": 7935.47, "end": 7941.31, "text": "make an inference of contagion perception more socially or" }, { "start": 7941.31, "end": 7942.35, "text": "symbolically." }, { "start": 7942.68, "end": 7945.72, "text": "I could see that happening uh fairly easily." }, { "start": 7945.88, "end": 7947.4, "text": "Well, I shouldn't say fairly easily." }, { "start": 7947.56, "end": 7950.12, "text": "I could see that uh bridge happening." }, { "start": 7950.28, "end": 7956.12, "text": "Um, you know, one thing that I've pondered about with this shared phenomenology, which" }, { "start": 7956.12, "end": 7958.12, "text": "people say that they're sick to their stomach." }, { "start": 7958.2, "end": 7963.56, "text": "And I personally have experienced phenomenology that seems to overlap with smelling" }, { "start": 7963.56, "end": 7969.21, "text": "something bad toward social violations that others have engaged in." }, { "start": 7969.69, "end": 7975.69, "text": "I think back to an analogy that Rob Kurzman made in terms of effort, in" }, { "start": 7975.69, "end": 7981.13, "text": "that you can have people talk about something being effortful in terms of mental" }, { "start": 7981.13, "end": 7987.13, "text": "effort related to, you know, the old ego depletion studies are not eating chocolate chip" }, { "start": 7987.13, "end": 7992.68, "text": "cookies or eating radishes instead, or having to identify circle dot every I in a sentence" }, { "start": 7992.76, "end": 7993.8, "text": "or something like this." }, { "start": 7993.88, "end": 7999.88, "text": "Um, and that feels effortful, uh, not in an identical way, but in a similar enough" }, { "start": 7999.88, "end": 8004.84, "text": "way that it feels effortful to run a marathon or something like that, or lift weights a" }, { "start": 8004.84, "end": 8005.08, "text": "lot." }, { "start": 8005.32, "end": 8010.92, "text": "Um, and that this similarity in phenomenology isn't reflecting underlying" }, { "start": 8010.92, "end": 8016.57, "text": "similarity in uh metabolic effort or uh or" }, { "start": 8016.57, "end": 8021.93, "text": "something like that, which that assumption kind of led some research down the wrong path in" }, { "start": 8021.93, "end": 8023.61, "text": "trying to explain mental effort." }, { "start": 8023.77, "end": 8026.97, "text": "But it's probably some kind of representation of opportunity costs." }, { "start": 8027.13, "end": 8032.89, "text": "And you can pay high opportunity costs by um proceeding with a" }, { "start": 8032.89, "end": 8038.6, "text": "mundane uh typing task when you're not getting any feedback of things that are" }, { "start": 8038.6, "end": 8044.52, "text": "beneficial for you, or you can pay opportunity costs in terms of uh caloric or muscle," }, { "start": 8044.76, "end": 8050.28, "text": "muscle, or strength, or whatever output in terms of a task where you're also not getting" }, { "start": 8050.28, "end": 8053.0, "text": "feedback of any kinds of benefits." }, { "start": 8053.24, "end": 8058.36, "text": "Um and so their proposal was that sense of effort is actually a representation of" }, { "start": 8058.36, "end": 8063.0, "text": "opportunity costs, but opportunity costs can vary quite a bit across domains." }, { "start": 8063.27, "end": 8068.63, "text": "Now, whether that commonality across moral disgust and pathogen disgust is a" }, { "start": 8068.63, "end": 8074.15, "text": "representation of contagion, but in pathogen contagion versus" }, { "start": 8074.15, "end": 8079.27, "text": "reputational or reliance or social contagion, which I have not thought about in those terms" }, { "start": 8079.27, "end": 8083.11, "text": "before, versus something else that I've thought about, which is some representation of" }, { "start": 8083.11, "end": 8088.94, "text": "valuation, which is you can have low valuation in terms of caloric or contact benefits" }, { "start": 8088.94, "end": 8094.7, "text": "relative to pathogen costs, or you could have low valuation in terms of association" }, { "start": 8094.7, "end": 8100.62, "text": "based on that person's behavior rather than how other people are going to" }, { "start": 8100.62, "end": 8102.7, "text": "treat you for being around that person." }, { "start": 8103.34, "end": 8105.74, "text": "Although those aren't mutually exclusive either." }, { "start": 8106.14, "end": 8110.94, "text": "A person's valuation could partially be what your relationship with them would be" }, { "start": 8111.1, "end": 8113.02, "text": "reputationally in the eyes of others." }, { "start": 8113.58, "end": 8119.35, "text": "So all of this is to say I find the account uh promising and convincing" }, { "start": 8119.51, "end": 8125.51, "text": "um but whittling down on why there's that commonality in phenomenology and" }, { "start": 8125.51, "end": 8128.95, "text": "outputs, uh I I'm not completely sure yet." }, { "start": 8129.27, "end": 8130.55, "text": "Yeah, cool." }, { "start": 8131.51, "end": 8133.27, "text": "Well, this was great." }, { "start": 8133.43, "end": 8139.34, "text": "Um Josh, you're um you're you're well into the evening hours" }, { "start": 8139.34, "end": 8141.5, "text": "here and we might have just lost Josh." }, { "start": 8141.58, "end": 8142.78, "text": "Uh can you hear us?" }, { "start": 8143.02, "end": 8143.34, "text": "All right." }, { "start": 8143.58, "end": 8144.14, "text": "I'm back." }, { "start": 8144.3, "end": 8149.58, "text": "I think I think my I think my connection cut me off like mid-sentence after no you are" }, { "start": 8149.58, "end": 8149.9, "text": "great though." }, { "start": 8149.98, "end": 8154.7, "text": "We I think we got that all that um you are just saying how ego depletion is is all right." }, { "start": 8156.86, "end": 8157.34, "text": "Thumbs up." }, { "start": 8157.5, "end": 8162.38, "text": "Yeah that's no yeah I think you you left off where yeah uh where you think it's interesting" }, { "start": 8162.46, "end": 8167.81, "text": "but then uh getting more specific about why the the phenomenology um uh overlaps in in" }, { "start": 8167.81, "end": 8171.89, "text": "those two cases it would would be uh promising." }, { "start": 8172.45, "end": 8176.69, "text": "Yeah, the idea that there might be a common higher level commonality in terms of sort of" }, { "start": 8176.69, "end": 8180.37, "text": "what it affords to the organism is sort of this possible idea." }, { "start": 8180.85, "end": 8181.09, "text": "Yeah." }, { "start": 8181.25, "end": 8181.81, "text": "Yes, exactly." }, { "start": 8182.05, "end": 8182.53, "text": "Very cool." }, { "start": 8182.77, "end": 8184.93, "text": "Well, Josh, uh we've taken up a lot of your time." }, { "start": 8185.01, "end": 8185.89, "text": "I know it's late there." }, { "start": 8186.05, "end": 8189.41, "text": "I don't even think we have time for the what we should have asked you question, but I think" }, { "start": 8189.41, "end": 8194.86, "text": "you uh you've already done that unless there's another uh think we've covered all the" }, { "start": 8194.86, "end": 8195.18, "text": "bases." } ], "text": "I'm David Pinsoff. I'm David Petrozowski. And this is Evolutionary Psychology, the podcast, actual evolutionary psychology. By actual evolutionary psychologists. Nailed it. Today we have a wonderful guest, Josh Tiber. Yes. Uh Josh is a uh expert in the field of disgust and disease psychology, contamination. Um he's such a fun person to talk to, and his knowledge of this area is quite expansive and breathtaking. Particularly because this is an area in evolutionary psychology that has led to a lot of ideas. It's been very generative. Some of these ideas are more dubious than others, and Josh is the perfect person to uh cut through the bullshit and tell you what is uh real, or at least what is the most promising direction to head in and what is maybe more dubious. Um for me, I think it's it's extremely clarifying to get his take on all these issues in the literature on disgust, and it's such a huge topic. I mean, disgust touches on so many different aspects of our lives uh in a way that is really hard to appreciate um until you uh talk to Josh. So um we get into lots of stuff. Discuss, disease. And I really appreciate about Josh that he is very careful and not a partisan in the sense of I always feel like I can I very much trust Josh's opinion about things in that he is just so careful um and is not fragile epistemically. Like he'll entertain an idea, but then think about does this make sense? And I just he's just a lovely person to uh emulate in terms of the stance one takes towards ideas in in the sense of entertaining them, but also taking an arm's length take on them and saying, does this actually make sense, even if it's coming from within Ev Psych, for example? Yes, he's one of the best examples I think of of a marriage between really good theory and really good empirics. He's very good in both of those areas, which is rare. Absolutely, yes. So Josh is a shining example of how to do evpsy. So without further ado, here's Josh Tiber. Enjoy. So Josh Tiber, you are in the Netherlands. Um, how did you get there? Uh via airplane, Dave. Um good, we're done. Okay. Have a good week, everybody. Josh, thanks for coming on. That was good. So uh yeah, I can give you the backstory. I was in a position to finish my PhD right when the great financial crisis was unfolding. And I struck out on the job market, which was exclusively targeted at the US for a couple years, and I decided to try my luck out at a job ad in Amsterdam. And it turned out to be the only hit that I got. And I thought, well, that sounds like an exciting adventure to go continue my career in a foreign country. So I moved over to Amsterdam in 2011. It was initially just a two-year contract. So jobs worked a little bit different out here rather than a 10-year track. It was just you're an assistant professor for two years, and we'll see how it goes from there. And um yeah, I've I've I felt very at home here and uh both academically and personally. So I've ended up staying here and now I'm married with a kid and fairly uh integrated into the academic system. Um for those people who are, I mean, you know, I think we're mostly American listeners. Uh, how is how is it different either academically or personally, not to get too personal, but we we're we we have we have four hours, so let's well, uh academically, I mean there there's tons of differences. The commonalities are that European researchers, or at least uh Dutch and UK, and to an extent French, German, many other countries, they're publishing in uh overlapping, largely similar academic journals. And a lot of them are coming to the same academic conferences. Um, but there are differences in the education system. For example, uh at my university, it's a three-year bachelor's degree, and we have six periods rather than uh quarters or semesters or trimesters. Um, most people take a fourth year, which is technically a master's, but it's kind of like the fourth year of a bachelor's in the US. Uh tuition is noticeably different. So in the Netherlands, I think that our bachelor tuition is something like 2800 euros per year if you come from the EU. And our master's tuition, I think, is 5,000 per year. Um A financial burden. Financial burden. Yeah, it's quite a bit different. So uh I would I would vastly prefer my son to attend a European or a Dutch university to a US one uh when he gets to be that age. Yeah, Germany is free. Um yeah. I would imagine the funding for scientific research is also uh more forthcoming there, or is it as uh as bad as it is here in the US? Um I don't know about the proportion of proposals that are funded through the Dutch National Science Foundation versus the US National Science Foundation, but there's certainly been austerity recently. There have been budgetary issues in European countries similar to those uh in the US. And some of them have been caused by common kind of political movements in the US versus the Netherlands, but also there have been some constraints with economic recovery after the pandemic in uh in Europe versus the US. And you were in you were there for the pandemic, yeah. I was here for the pandemic, and that was uh that was an interesting experience, both uh research-wise, which we can get to in a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also personally, um I I really learned Dutch well during the pandemic. So I'd already been in the Netherlands for eight years and I'd taken several courses and um had some Dutch competence, but I really focused on language education and followed the news a lot during that period. And also living in a very urban and walkable environment, my wife and I would take 45-minute walks to the city every night. And it was like being in that scene in the movie 28 days later, when the main character Jim leaves his hospital and there's just no one in downtown London. It was exactly like that in Dam Square in Amsterdam, where you just wouldn't see another human being where typically you'd see hundreds of people during the middle of the day. Yeah, like a CGI that post apocalyptic scene. Yeah. It was. It was also the first time that I'd really, I don't know, know if regret is quite the right word, but I lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico for seven years, which just has incredible skies, mountains, landscapes. And I really regretted not being able to just get in my car and drive somewhere. An urban environment felt a little bit more like a prison. And of course, there were uh I think that the term lockdown is used very sloppily to refer to a lot of things that um are not the same. Uh, but we did have curfews and a lot of restaurants and bars were closed. So uh options for social and just recreational activities were pretty limited. Yeah. David, you were in LA L you were in LA for that? I was, yeah. Uh also, you know, things were locked down. It was a bummer for everyone. Uh it was, you know, it was it was dark times. Uh but I wanna transition into your your research because um because everyone's like, no, tell us more about what it's like to walk through Amsterdam. Yeah, let's just remember how how bad it was. Yeah, exactly. Uh so like you actually, as far as I'm aware, you have done some of the best and uh highest sample size research on the effects of pandemics on our psychology. Uh and also you're one of the foremost experts on disgust and contamination psychology. And so here you are in the middle of a pandemic. You have uh this huge sample size of studying people's attitudes throughout the pandemic, both you know, uh before it really peaked and and after. And you have this uh huge, awesome data set. I I remember seeing some of your slides at HBES and was really impressed by it. Um And I would just love to get some of the takeaways from that project because I found it really interesting at the time I saw it at HBS. And I I'd love a recap of it. Yeah, sure. So at the beginning of the pandemic, I was contacted by a lot of journalists because there aren't that many researchers who specialize in the psychology of pathogen avoidance. And then all of a sudden, there's a once-in-a-generation or multiple generation pandemic. And they wanted my insights into how human psychology was going to change as a function of COVID-19. And initially, I was very skeptical that we would see many changes that had any kind of correspondence with our functionally specialized pathogen avoidance psychology. Nevertheless, I felt like it would be a good idea to start collecting some data. And so I partnered with a local panel research company in the Netherlands called Flycatcher. And I started with, gosh, I think our first sample was a thousand individuals. And we collected data during, let's see, I think that it was May of 2020. So just about the peak period of deaths and ICU occupancy in the Netherlands. And we had a plan to just collect data every nine months or so, as long as necessary until the pandemic was over. And the goal was to assess some variables that psychologists have said relate to our motivations to avoid infectious disease. I can list some of these. One of them is disgust sensitivity. So, as you and listeners are probably aware, some people are more easily disgusted by bad smells and, you know, just based on our folk psychology, gross things than others. Um, and researchers have often tied variation in how easily disgusted you are to your motivations to avoid pathogen cues. So we measured that across the pandemic. Um, we measured attitudes toward outgroups. So there's a literature suggesting that part of our psychology of inner group biases and negativity toward outgroups reflects adaptations for avoiding pathogens, with the idea that in our ancestral history, outgroups have posed a greater pathogen threat than in-groups. And we assessed a variable that I've been assessing in several studies over the last five years that we just refer to as contact comfort. So it's not how disgusted you are by pathogen cues, but rather how comfortable you would be um with indirect contact with another person. So an example is if um Dave P, you take a big swig out of a Dasani bottle and you offer it to Dave other P. I just made that mistake that all of you guys do. Right here, look at this. Sam Pellegrino. Okay, if Pinsoff offers, if Pinsoff takes a swig out of a Sam Pellegrino bottle and offers it to Petrozki, uh, how comfortable are you with that, Petrazuki? How comfortable are you, Dave? I have a cold right now. So yeah, you don't. All right. You can pass. And then we also asked them about their explicit concerns about disease. So uh items here are, you know, I'm concerned about getting an infectious disease right now. And we could um track how these variables relate to each other, but also how they changed across these assessments during the pandemic to see if early on the pandemic, when disease is very salient, you know, there's press conferences weekly or so in the Netherlands, there's lockdowns, people are worried about dying and about the parents dying. They don't want to get close to each other because they're worried about these pathogens transmitted by invisible respiratory droplets and aerosols. If then these variables that we think reflect pathogen avoidance motivations are changing with the intensity of the pandemic. So ultimately, we had four assessments every nine months starting in 2020 and ending in 2022 when the World Health Organization had declared that the pandemic was complete. And uh what what did you find from from this uh massive undertaking? We found zero differences in most of these variables. So discuss sensitivity uh did not change across the pandemic. This was actually a little bit contrary to some early papers that were pushed out very early in the pandemic, um, but were kind of small sample size, and we're just looking at what a mean was here and what a mean on another sample was that would have been pulled out of the literature. Since we could follow our participants across time, uh we had a very high-powered uh study for detecting fairly small effect sizes. And we didn't see that, you know, when people were very worried about disease and they were getting cues to at least socially transmitted cues to there being uh threats posed by disease, we didn't see that they were more disgusted by mold or bad smells or sores or anything like that. Um, we also saw no differences in anti immigrant bias across the pandemic. Um, so when people were explicitly saying, Yes, I'm quite worried about disease, they were no more um negative toward immigrants than uh when they weren't as concerned. Now I just skipped it a little bit. When we did ask them their kind of reflective concerns about disease, I'm worried about getting sick right now, we saw very large effect sizes. Yes, people were consciously worried about disease early, not late, but that didn't correspond with then greater anti immigrant bias. Maybe most interestingly, there was no change in contact comfort. So people weren't saying I'm less comfortable sharing a water bottle with someone, even when health authorities were saying you really don't want to be doing this on the self-report instruments, uh, they were no less comfortable early in the pandemic um than late in the pandemic. And that might seem counterintuitive, but if you actually saw behavior during the pandemic, some people were you know consciously worried about things. Um, but when I would go out in public, the majority of people were disregarding most of these recommendations. They were not keeping their in Europe their meter and a half, uh, or I don't know if it was it was six feet uh in the US. And they were rushing out to bars and restaurants when they were uh opened again. So I I'll leave that there if you have any follow-up questions, then I can explain something else that was interesting that we found. Uh is the idea that the stable were there are there stable individual differences in these things that what were already in the literature and that you found again. Yes. Yeah. So there's high test-retest reliability for these measures. Okay. So if you look at the interclass correlation coefficient in the multi-level model that we used, you have a very high ICC reflecting stable individual differences. Got it. So if you know I sit down in a chair and it's still warm from the previous person, that fine, I find that gross. Somebody else doesn't. whether or not we're in a pandemic, I'm gonna still find it gross. The other person still isn't. So the idea is that the individual stable differences wash away any effect there might have been from the overarching pandemic cues. Is that the general idea? That's right. And you know, any effect there might have been, again, we had very high power to detect very small effects, and we didn't even detect those. Yeah. And then did you find any within cohort correl correlations? So like within a a cohort, say, you know, one of you know, between one of your nine month separations or whatever, did you find correlations between say disgust sensitivity and anti-immigrant sentiment or fear of disease and anti-immigrant sentiment or or anything like that? Yeah, we replicated these effects. So um individu individuals who are higher in disgust sensitivity are more negative toward immigrants. pretty small effect size, but uh we we did detect that, yes. And what what what is if I can just push on that for a second, what's the logic? You talked a little bit about the logic, but can we unpack that? Because I think one of the one of the reasons why people find the behavioral immune system stuff interesting is number one, it's just interesting to think about psychological adaptations for avoiding disease. But number two, I think there's been an argument that it has a host of concomitant effects that might seem sort of irrational from a naive or or maybe standard social science model to be sort of coalitional about of psych. Can you either unpack like what's the logic of avoiding out groups? And is this uh a real in your opinion? Like what's up with that? And can you just talk more about that for people who may not know? Absolutely. And I'll take a circuitous route to doing that and hopefully not monologue or lecture too much because I think that this is a really interesting topic. So there's a social psychologist, evolutionary psychologist named Mark Schaller, who really pioneered this area. And Mark wrote a nice chapter in Buss's handbook of evolutionary psychology, in which he described the behavioral immune system as an evolutionary success story. And when Mark first started working on this stuff in the early aughts, I was only familiar with a couple papers that engaged with the psychology of disease and disease avoidance. Most of it was looking at attitudes toward gay men in the 1990s because they were explicitly associated with HIV, and researchers thought this might underlie part of anti-gay prejudice. And then uh the evolutionary psychologist Rob Kurzban and co-author Mark Leary wrote a classic paper that really kind of uh got me thinking about evolutionary psychology in 2001 on stigmatization, and they proposed that one of three reasons uh explaining general stigmatization processes in humans is parasite avoidance. Um, regardless, Mark Schaller, being a social psychologist largely interested in prejudice, started thinking well, people kind of have aversions to a lot of individuals for seemingly irrational reasons. So um birthmarks, physical disability, just looking different than other people. And a lot of theories in social psychology have difficulty explaining that. And so he started proposing that a lot of this might be our specialized pathogen avoidance psychology treating features of different individuals in our social environments as diagnostic of an increased infection risk. Now, this again is something that if you're not thinking about evolution and what our minds should be designed to do, you really have a tough time coming to that hypothesis. And if we unpack that a little bit further, in talks I give on this topic, I often give a picture of this really cool looking virus virus, a bacterial phage. And phages are specialized for infecting bacterial cells. So some bacteria that infect humans, like E. coli, they're actually infected by these viral cells. And what this suggests is that pathogens have been a problem for life on Earth pretty much as long as life on Earth has existed. And they should be one of the most important factors in shaping the evolution of life. And we should expect a lot of complex adaptations for this problem in all animals, and specifically what we're interested in as psychologists, humans. Now, if we think about all of the things that humans have to do that have non-zero disease risks, well, eating puts things in our mouths. We often need to touch our food with our hands, which are coming into contact with other things that are pathogen risks. Um, having sex requires close proximity and contact with someone else. And evolutionary psychologists have pointed out that sex is pretty important and make preferences for understanding uh the mind. Um, basic social interactions, so touching things that other people have touched, so exchanging artifacts or physical contact for cooperative interactions, uh, interacting with animals, either as food or with dogs. And the list goes on: child rearing. And so by unlocking better knowledge about how our minds have evolved to deal with pathogens, to detect them and then manage the threats posed by them, we should be able to make inroads in a lot of different research areas in evolutionary psychology. So that's kind of the pitch for why this is important. Let me stop there for a second before we go on to the outgroup thing, just to see if you guys have any questions or comments. No, it's it's it's a wonderful um tour of of the history of this thinking. And uh I'm eager to get to the punchline of you know what is real here uh and what uh was a wrong turn. Yeah and I just want to say too uh before I to interrupt um it's also a great example of it reminds me of Annie Wirtz's plant work where you know people are like, oh, that's weird that there's like psychological stuff for pathogen avoidance or any with like with plants. But then if you and that's from a very like ivory tower, like the purpose of cognition is thinking, we don't think about the embodied physical environment or nature really at all. But if you come from this other perspective, yeah, like pathogens have been around forever. I mean, there's arguments that the evolution of sex is because of pathogens, right? And uh and something like plants or pathogens, it's the prior for there being lots of adaptations for these things is so high. So I just love this idea that you're taking a thing that is sort of counterintuitive from this very narrow perspective, but really there's really good evidence or arguments or logic for why it would be. So I think it's just a good example of the argument of taking an evolutionary approach, providing a novel, different way of thinking about things. But that's that's just my commentary before we proceed to the street. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely agreed. So when we get to outgroups, I'll also say that in this research area, there were a lot of exciting hypotheses early on. And then, as is the case with you know all kinds of generative and productive scientific enterprises, there's uh pruning, and then there's more generation, and then there's further pruning. And there's not an absolute consensus in this area. I think that you could have guests that might disagree with some of my perspective, but I'll give you mine here. Some of the early work in this area, uh, by Mark Schaller, by uh really, really smart people like Dan Fessler, Carlos Navarrett, also uh Randy Thornhill, a lot of it was focused on this idea of outgroup biases and prejudices having something to do with pathogen avoidance. And the authors that I just mentioned, some of them have slightly different perspectives on this. But I'll give you the account from the parasite stress model, which has some commonalities with other accounts. The idea here is that people specialize their immune responses to pathogens in their local ecologies. And the pathogens in different ecologies are going to be different. And so if you have two groups that live, let's say, on two different sides of a mountain or across an ocean, they're going to develop some immunity based on their exposure to specific pathogens in their ecologies. And so the average interaction with someone from your ecology who shares some immunity to the type of pathogens there, that's going to be less of a threat to you simply because you have some immunity to the pathogens that that person is going to transmit to you if you're shaking their hand or eating food with them or something like that. However, if you have an interaction with a person on the other side of that mountain who has exposure to different pathogens that you might not have some adaptive immunity toward, that interaction is going to be more likely to infect you with something that has higher costs for you. And those costs could ultimately be death. But of course, pathogen with pathogens is not you die or you don't die. There are metabolic costs. You could infect social partners or kin. There could be phenotypic differences that lead you to be stigmatized. You have less time and energy to hunt, to invest in friends, all sorts of bad things with infection. So the idea here is that the mind might have evolved to treat out-group membership as a cue to pathogens, or at least to the infectiousness or the danger of pathogens to you. And hence, we should see these relations between disgust sensitivity and outgroup biases. So the individuals who, when they see pathogen cues, they feel more disgusted. Their affective systems are basically investing more in avoidance in response to these cues than the people who are low on disgust sensitivity. Those high disgust sensitivity individuals should be more biased against outgroups. uh, we should see greater inner group biases in parts of the world with a higher concentration of parasites, et cetera. So that's the argument. And there are a lot of studies that have been interpreted as supporting that argument. Um, I have personally been skeptical of that argument for a few reasons. And part of this might be uh my background in social psychology as it is. And Dave Petrozky, uh, given that you're interested in groups and group psychology, you might have some thoughts to add to this as well. Um, one is that the psychology of groups has very little overlap with uh ecological origin. And this perspective really is centered around people come from different ecologies that have different pathogens. So the minimal group paradigm, which was developed in the 1970s, demonstrates that if you just get a bunch of strangers in a room and you tell half of them that they are people who favor the artist Klee, and the other half that they favor the artist Kandinsky, you can get these manifestations of intergroup biases. The erasing race work, and Dave, your other work on alliance detections and the Who Said What paradigm suggests that the way that group membership is encoded based on phenotypic features is kind of flexible and probably tracking coalitions more so than it's tracking ecological origins. And the work by uh Tosho Yamagishi and others that kind of follows up on minimal group paradigm studies suggests that these perceptions or at least behaviors of intergroup biases are really tracking assumptions of interdependence. So kind of first principle aspects of this account leave me skeptical that we would actually be treating out group members per se as accused of pathogens. I'll pause there in case, yeah. Yeah. So I I fully agree. I I share your skepticism of this hypothesis. And uh I I I would add though, I mean, and this connects to some of your other research, there may be a grain of truth to it uh insofar as you know, any kind of social interaction has some pathogen risk associated with it. And we should have evolved to weigh the costs of those pathogen risks against the potential benefits. And so, insofar as you view outgroups as lower value social partners, then the costs of interacting them with them may outweigh the benefits. So, in that sense, it wouldn't be that you're viewing outgroups as a as a particularly high pathogen risk and therefore you're avoiding them. It's that you already don't like them for other reasons. Uh, and because we evolved to uh um not bear the costs of interacting with people we don't like, then that could uh contribute to some you know, say greater disgust toward outgroups or disgust might win the battle in terms of the cost-benefit analysis of interacting with them. Do you do you buy that um grain of truth story? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So that's a nice segue, uh Dave, in that one thing that I've argued for recently is that uh the majority of our path to avoidance psychology in terms of social interactions is based on two things. One of them is: does this person actually have a feature that is diagnostic of infection? And I'm skeptical that things like old age or obesity, uh, some cues that have been proposed uh when this literature first started developing are actually treated as diagnostic of being contagious with an infection right then. I would bet, well, maybe not bet money, but uh reputation, that um the the cues that people interpret as diagnostic of contagion are really going to be limited to things like oozing sores on the face, things related to skin color, skin texture, irregular dots of color, that type of stuff. So that's going to be one feature that's important in kind of regulating this. Do I take a risk associated with pathogens? How likely is this person that has uh has an infection? One interesting thing about that is that the actual pathogens that infect people now don't need to be the same as the pathogens that infected people 50,000 years ago or 100,000 years ago or two million years ago or anything like that. A lot of times what we're responding to is other individuals' immune systems activating. And in fact, some researchers at the Karolinski Institute have this really cool method where they inject their participants with something called lipopolysaccharide. It's like the cell wall of bacteria that cause infections. And when you inject people with it, they don't, they're not actually infected, but these cell walls do provoke an innate immune response, high level, high increases in things like interleukin 6, pro-inflammatory cytokines, and they feel really sick for like six hours. And so um awesome study. They uh they bring the people to the lab twice, one time with the placebo, one time with the LPS. And yeah, I've spoken with the researchers who do this, and they say, yeah, people pretty much know what condition they're in pretty quickly. Um, but in some of their studies, they've taken photographs of the individuals who have gotten the LPS, uh, and then you know, at time two or time one, depending on the counterbalanced order, gotten the placebo. And um you can really tell which one was the sick one. So uh just based on internal inflammation, you can detect cues to another person having uh an immune response. Is it anyway? What do you what do you what do you think the is it because I would imagine a big part of it is they just look really like tired and out of it, their eyes are probably droopy. I imagine that's part of it, but is there's probably skin coloration effects as well, or do we or do we not know what cues they're picking up on? Oh yeah. I mean, I I show this image in my episode class that I teach and everyone loves it. But um yeah, they look paler, the eyes look a little puffy. Um uh there's there's a little bit uh of irregularity in the cut in the color. Uh the sclera look a little bit less clear. And that's just with visual cues, right? Like, I mean, if you know the person, like I mean, I have a slight cold, like I said, it's like right on time for you. And like I sound different. I assume a lot of the inflammation of of these areas is also has really, you know, we have a lot of machinery for detecting very subtle acoustic differences. Um, you know, so I think you could if you know what the person usually sounds like, you can really tell when somebody is like, you know, congested and or not. Yeah. Absolutely. I I find this interesting just to think about the number of times that people might say, are you sick? Are you feeling okay? Do you think no it's allergies. Yeah. No, somebody will be like, yeah. Yeah. yeah. Um, another evolutionary psychologist, Josh Ackerman, has an interesting research program right now on people uh concealing whether they're sick because there could be cost to disclosing that you're infected to other individuals based on how they treat you, uh opportunities they might give you, etc. But uh regardless, there's this one part of our pathogen avoidance psychology, which should be um trying to detect or estimate how likely someone is to uh be contagious, right, at this moment. The other part is well, we basically don't know if anyone we can't, we don't have perfect knowledge that people are contagious. And some of these cues can update our estimates that they're contagious, but we're never going to have perfect knowledge. And, you know, some sometimes infections aren't producing any symptoms at all. Sometimes these symptoms are are of, you know, they could be false alarms in terms of detection. But we do need to take these risks with all individuals who don't necessarily have symptoms. And so we should be calibrating those risks based on things not related to pathogens, but rather based on how beneficial is contact and proximity with this individual? And how much of a cost would I pay to categorize them as posing a pathogen risk to me in the absence of any kind of visual cues. So, in one paper that Deb Lieberman and I and Tom Kupfer and some other Le Fan and Rainette Fries published a while ago, we tested this idea that it's one of those ideas where you have a giant effect size, and uh, yeah, your grandma would know this kind of thing. Um, we just randomly assigned participants to think about uh a target. And we asked them to think about a target who is either their romantic partner or their closest friend or an acquaintance or an enemy, someone that they know well, but they really can't stand. And we asked them these questions how comfortable would you be sharing drinking from a water bottle that this person drank from, touching this person's socks after they exercised, taking a bite out of a sandwich that this person had taken a bite out of. So none of them required them to actually touch the person or risk transmitting pathogens to that individual, but basically just touch something they touched and have some risk of pathogens being transmitted to them. And you just get these gigantic effect sizes, even though these individuals have no cues to pathogens that we're aware of. You know, we just ask them to think about this person. And so that's some good evidence that people are calibrating their pathogen avoidance tendencies for specific individuals based on how important that person is to them. But we further propose that within these folk categories, there should be variation in how much you value that relationship with that target. So Dave Pinsoff, you might value your best friend more than Dave Petrozowski, you value your best friend, or you might value the acquaintance that you think of more than Dave Petrozzewski values the acquaintance that he thinks of. So we also administered something called a welfare trade-off task, something developed by uh Dave Petrozicki. You probably went to grad school with Andy Delton and uh Tess Robertson. You were probably there at the same time. But this is this is developed from the UCSB group. And if there are psychologists in the audience, this is very similar to something called social value orientation, but it's target specific. But effectively, what you assess is the proportion of benefit that you would be willing to give up for a target to get some benefit. So, said differently across 10 trials, I could ask, I could ask you 10 questions where Dave Dave Petrozowski always gets uh 30 bucks. Um, and Dave Pinsoff has asked, well, would you rather get 80 bucks or Dave Petrozki get 30? Would you rather get 60 or Dave Petrozki get 30, etc., etc.? And based on the point at which they start saying, well, I'll give up the benefit for uh Dave Petrozowski to get that benefit, you can estimate the ratio of uh the target's welfare uh relative to your own that you're willing to give up. So, with that kind of long-winded explanation for what this task is out of the way, we find these really consistent correlations also within these kind of folk categories. The people who value their closest friend more are also more comfortable with these pathogen risks. And at a bivariate level, if you just look at welfare trade-off ratio and contact comfort, correlation coefficients are like 0.7. It's insanely large. We replicated this over multiple studies. We even replicated it, we even uh tried it where we gave photos of strangers and we described them with the personality traits uh high in honesty, humility, and agreeableness, or low in honesty, humility, and agreeableness. And these are personality traits that meta-analyses show predict cooperation in anonymous interactions between strangers. So amount of money you give in a prisoner's dilemma, for example. And we see the same thing. Um, you see the same thing in that context, meaning even with a stranger, you're more likely to tolerate disease from them if they're higher on these traits. That's correct. I'm more willing to share a drink with a nice guy than with an asshole. And it's interesting that we use that term asshole because it itself elicits disgust. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So looping back to the COVID study, this was one thing that we replicated strongly within that COVID study. So at the four different time points that we surveyed participants, we randomly assign them to have a different target and assessed welfare trade-off ratio across those times. And we see that within participant as well as but as well as between participants. So if you ask the same person to think about different targets, you know, at nine months apart, you have this really strong relationship that, yes, an individual, when they think of someone who they have a higher interpersonal value for, they're more comfortable taking these uh infection risks just based on touching things that another person has touched than someone that they have a low interpersonal value for. I mean, this seems bad for the generic outgroup hypothesis in the sense of you're getting sensitivity on these measures to other things that sort of from first principles you would expect. So like relationship, yeah. I mean, so what's can we is that it seems like a problem, but is it is there an argument to steel man that hypothesis? Is it the argument that it's specific kinds of groups? Or how it sounds really bad for the group, the the group pathogen idea. Um so with my former PhD student, Annika Karnan, we have another paper in which um this was a registered report where you have hypotheses peer review before the data are uh are published or before the results are known. But we randomly signed participants to read about an immigrant that was either uh really low on assimilation or really high on assimilation. Um, and we also had another uh it was cross with this in the vignette, they're really high in contact or low in contact. So they were either living in kind of a ghetto with other immigrants, or they were really integrating in town. They're really adopting the local norms or they were really keeping the norms of their home country. We did see that discuss sensitivity was related to anti-immigrant attitudes when they were not assimilating, but they were not related to the anti-immigrant attitudes when they are assimilating. So I think this ties back into the other account well in and that the assimilation might be a cue for being a good co-op, a valuable uh interactions uh partner. Um, when they're not assimilating, then you're getting the people who are higher in disgust sensitivity who are really like, uh, I really don't want to one that person around me. And so you could still have people varying on their trait level pathogen avoidance, and depending on how they're framing that immigrant in terms of being uh a likely uh benefit socially versus not, you could get this relationship. So to summarize, if I'm hearing you right, it's that it's not that the pathogen system is sort of overriding the social valuation system. It's that the social valuation system is sort of tracking: is this somebody worth interacting with? Is it a friend? Is it somebody who I'm going to get benefits from? What's the what's the likely forecast of social value? And then if that's already low, then all of the problems or cons of interacting with that person anyway are just going to be like the excuse or come to the fore. And one of those cons might be pathogen. but but it sounds like roughly speaking, that's the order. Is that a fair characterization of the literature as you see it? Um yes. Although I I I think that this idea of outgroups being categorized as a pathogen thread is still prevalent in the literature. Um, so of course, I'm I'm giving you my read, which is shaped by uh my data, But I I would be curious how uh how others generally uh look at this. Um now there is another issue though, and uh Dave Pinsoff, I know that you mentioned this, maybe it was in your podcast with Deb Lieberman, some other work on uh pathogen avoidance and sexual strategies. So there's another finding that's been prevalent in the literature, and that is that largely in US samples, although there's some cross-cultural data that support this as well. Individuals who are higher in discuss sensitivity tend to be more politically conservative. So they score higher on measures of right-wing authoritarianism and traditionalism and just self-identification as liberal versus conservative, especially on social issues. And again, the argument for this relation has really tied back to intergroup interactions for the most part, suggesting that those who are more invested in avoiding pathogens should find these right wing ideologies more appealing because they interrupt intergroup interactions and they're anti immigrant and that type of stuff. For the same reasons that I articulated earlier, that there are some reasons to be skeptical of that account. My colleagues, including uh Yal Imbar and Catherine Moulho, and I suggested that maybe this could be a byproduct of something else, namely sexual strategies, in that having kind of more permissive reproductive lifestyles or reproductive strategies exposes people to higher pathogen threats. So people need to kind of weigh how valuable is having a less restricted sexual life to me relative to the higher pathogen costs imposed by that lifestyle. And this need not just be what we call sexually transmitted infections, which are called that because they are transmitted via sex specifically. So they infect largely genitals and are transmitted via genitals. But if you can get the flu by standing in a room with someone, you can get the flu by having sex with them. And so individuals who are especially invested in avoiding pathogens, they might actually select reproductive strategies that uh lower that risk of pathogen transmission. And once you have a specific reproductive strategy, certain political ideologies are more favorable versus disfavorable to those strategies. So, of course, this is in line with David Pinsoff. You've probably discussed some of this on one of these podcasts. But uh conservative ideologies, they're often disincentivizing these more unrestricted type of sexual lifestyles. So they're making it harder to get abortion abortions, access to birth control, they're moralizing pornography and hookups and that type of stuff. And so you might get this relation where you have more pathogen avoidant individuals. They select these specific sexual strategies. And then based on sexual strategies, people sort into these political coalitions partially. And so this bivariate relation between pathogen avoidance and political values might be operating through these uh sexual strategies. And that's what we find. And over and over and over, if you ask people how disgusted they are by sexual things, um, and you ask them how disgusted they are by pathogen things, and uh there's no independent relation between how disgusted they are by the pathogen things and um political values, once you control for the the sexual disgust. Some of that uh original work, too. I I my understanding was it didn't really replicate. So some of the like I like John Hibbing, for example. I remember he came to UCSB when I was a graduate student and presented a lot of work on conservatives being more disgust prone. Um, but uh, but that was sort of during the days of um, you know, uh John was a lovely person and I know he's retired now so I've I can say like I'm not sure how much that stuff holds up. Um is you what is your understanding of that? Um that sounds like you guys replicate some of it or at least that like if there is a difference it's driven through this sexual um path. So the the this is quite robust actually just the the self-reports of discuss sensitivity relating to the self-reports of political ideology. What uh John Hibbing and others have published that is not replicable is largely, I believe, psychophysiological measures. So, you know, they were looking at conservatives versus liberals in threat reactivity using things like galvanic skin response, etc. And uh multiple researchers, Ev and Eva in the Eve community have contributed this, basically suggesting that uh a lot of what these measures, a lot of what these methods are assessing is is noise. And uh papers publishing these findings have capitalized on um noisy data at best. Okay, great. Well, thank you for clarifying that. Um, what what is your bottom line take on on like wrapping this aspect up? How important is this behavioral immune system idea? From there's two ways I understood like broadly, and maybe this is an oversimplification. One is you have to deal with the fact that pathogens exist while making a social living. And there's another one that sort of says pathogens really matter a lot more for your social choices than you might think, even in terms of like interacting with somebody. So the the first one is sort of like, well, yeah, we have to we make our decisions about social partners and then we just deal with the fact that sometimes they're sick or not. The other one is sort of saying, No, you actually really choose your soul social partners even based on cues of illness. Are both right in different contexts, or is one really wrong, or is that a wrong dichotomy? No, I think that they're both right. The thing is that individuals get sick all the time. So of course you have long-term social relationships and you don't just abandon someone when they're sick. I mean, that could happen. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that's but um but generally you don't. And I mean, one thing that all three of us have in common, we all have young children, and of course, child rearing takes a lot, uh puts you at risk of a lot of uh infections. And of course, that's exacerbated in modern contexts with you know indoor air sharing and respiratory viruses and daycare. There is something to kind of short-term interactions, interactions with strangers where we might kind of approach specific individuals for those types of interactions differently depending on whether they're infectious. And of course, we could try to manage the infection risk by individuals when they do have uh cues to infection, even if they're close to us. Um, but yes, I would say that pathogens, huge problem, impact all sorts of aspects of our social psychology and our food psychology and our mating psychology, et cetera. And uh we are we are going to be able to tell to a degree uh which people are sick when. Um, but even in the absence of those cues, we're still going to be assuming a non-zero pathogen transmission risk, just because humans are the most likely things to infect us, even in the absence of things that we can detect. Right. Cool. Yeah. And so what one of the things we've talked about before, in and I think it was, I forget which episode, was that something like sex, it might have been with Deb, um, Deb Lieberman. Was that, you know, given that this pathogen avoidance is a primary thing in our psychology, then as you say, certain other co-adaptations or other adaptations will co-vary the disgust sensitivity when there's a benefit. So, for example, like sex should turn down disgust, parenting, like I don't know about you guys, but like my my child is the one person where I'm like, I don't even care what happens to me. I just I don't want to get them sick, but like if they're sick, whatever, like I don't care at all. At least that's my experience. So has there been work in mating or parenting on the turning down of disgust sensitivity, which you would expect like there to be really big effects for? Yeah, it's it's difficult to do this work well. I I would say that those things are absolutely true. It's it's so has to be true based on your priors and based on your lived experience. I don't know if the the way that a social science study comes out should inform how we're thinking about that that much. But I can comment on the little research that's been done with parenting. There is a study in which uh some researchers in Australia, Dick Stevenson, Trevor Case, and others, asked parents to imagine how disgusted they would be by their own baby's diaper versus other people's baby's diapers. And they said that they'd be more disgusted by other people's baby's diapers. And then they had a smell test where parents actually did a blind diaper smelling test. Oh, that sounds like a fun study to these are these are like the real hits of like So in this study, you will be smelling diapers. Some of them will be uh the the finding reported is that parents find their own baby's diapers smell to be less aversive even when they don't know it's their own baby's diaper. The replicability of that I'm I can't say based on the sample size and the methods at the time. Um, but I I'm not familiar with other research on the topic. One PhD student and I are about to launch a big study that I'm kind of excited about, looking at uh these same variables of contact comfort, but having the child be the um the target and then very uh sampling people who have children who are a bunch of different ages to see if this is invariant across child's age or if this is kind of dialed to the dependency of the child on you. So stay tuned. We might have some interesting results at some point. In terms of mating, there's a similar issue in that it's both difficult methodologically and then also questioning whether the method that you're using actually tracks with the question that you want to be asking. So there's a famous and perhaps infamous study by Dan Arielli in which he asked participants to uh masturbate while they were completing questionnaires. And they said that they were willing to do all sorts of disgusting things in the participants were masturbating condition more than in the other condition. There are other aspects of that study that maybe make you question what you can take from it. And then there are various studies in which participants have watched erotic videos or had guided visualizations, and then you ask them to do disgusting things. And some studies have found that yes, that's the case. People are willing to do more disgusting things. But this is a broader issue in these kinds of approaches of what can broadly be described as priming, which is do you should you actually expect the system to be designed so that you're in a state of sexual arousal and you're just indiscriminately more open to exposure to pathogens versus should this be really targeted toward um whatever is elisting that sexual arousal and targeted toward the specific types of pathogen risks that are necessary for sex. So of course, you know it's an open question how the system is designed, but um it would be a pretty blunt design feature to say, okay, I I'm in a state of sexual arousal. I'm going to eat that yogurt that expired two months ago. Not impossible. This happens all the time. You know, this could be this could be a byproduct, depending on how general the system is. Yeah. But I would guess that it has uh better design features than that. Yeah. Yeah, No, I love the way you're thinking about this. And in many ways, um what you're discovering is that the system is smarter than we thought it it was. And that people um in their first pass at sort of laying out the design features uh of this system, they sort of underestimated just how sophisticated and well-designed uh it, in fact, is that we're not just indiscriminately viewing anyone from a quote unquote out group as a pathogen threat or anyone who quote unquote looks different as a pathogen threat, that the system is actually more subtle and sophisticated than this. It's actually using valid cues to uh pathogen risk. And most of the decision-making variance is going to be explained by more subtle calculations of social valuation. Um, and that uh if if the disease risk is held constant, then the main source of variance is gonna be how valuable I find you or someone else as a social partner and whether those costs are going to be um worth incurring to get the benefits of the social relationship. So I I I think it's it's really um outstanding work and and and a huge leap forward to to think about this system uh in terms of this logic. I also think it sheds a lot of light on um rituals and uh signals of affiliation. So around the world we have handshakes, hugs, uh kissing on the cheek. Um, these are ways that we signal affiliation with a group of people. And if I refuse a handshake or refuse to hug or like step back when you're trying to hug me, um that could be viewed as insulting, and rightly so. And I think your theory explains why these are such common signals of social affiliation. Uh they are in fact costly signals. You are incurring uh a slight cost of pathogen risk in order to signal that you value uh a relationship with someone. Um and so it is no coincidence that around the world we have contact rituals as signals of affiliation. And it's also honestly, um, I've I've been thinking, I have a pet theory about um sort of quote unquote kinky sexual practices that I think also fits in with your with your theorizing, uh, which is that if um um doing if pathogen risk can be a costly signal of affiliation, it might be that doing disgusting things sexually can be a costly signal of sexual arousal. So if sexual arousal dials down your disgust, then if you're willing to do really gross things in the bedroom, then that uh is a is a hard-to-fake signal that you truly are aroused. And insofar as there is an arms race between, you know, figuring out if someone is truly aroused versus faking it, um, if they're willing to do disgusting things, then that could be a hard to fake signal that they truly are aroused. And the same thing goes for potentially dangerous things in the bedroom, like BDSM stuff. If sexual arousal requires you to dial down your fear, then if you're willing to expose do dangerous things like getting handcuffed or choked or whatever, then that is a hard to fake signal of sexual arousal. Anyway, that's my pet theory about what might explain some of these practices. I'm curious if you if you buy it or not. I I look forward to the BBS paper. No, that sounds really that sounds really interesting. I mean this is um you point out something that for evolutionary psychologists this is uh this is a mystery. Why are these types of things uh prominent across cultures? Of course there are um uh a minority of individuals um as a as a brief aside I've also done some behavioral genetics work And I've collaborated with a researcher in Finland who runs the genetics of sexuality and aggression database. So he has population level data on BDSM practices. And it's a it's a fairly small amount of the population in his data that reports engaging in these. But that small proportion is present in Finland, present in Germany, present in the Netherlands, present in the US, present in Japan, etc. and uh presumably via independent kind of pathways popping up. This probably isn't something that's just culturally transmitted uh from one source to all of these different locations. And of course, individuals develop these preferences and practices within their own relationships, and they're not uh probably broadcasting broadly their desires or their practices to do this. So it demands some kind of explanation. And I think that I tentatively buy it. I mean, it it sounds compelling what you say. Definitely, I think that their costly signaling has some kind of explanation to play in it. David, can I just poke poke on this idea, which is that is an alternative, because the way I had been thinking about it as like just this is not my area, but just sort of as like, you know, uh an amateur was that um there's just individual differences already in sort of like aggressiveness or proneness to pathogen sensitivity or not. And then if you're getting this human universal of when sexually aroused certain things get turned up or down, whatever the state of these other systems are in people, like some people are just lower in um disgust sensitivity to begin with, or when the sex they're sexually aroused, they're really sexually aroused, or the relationship between the sexual arousal system and the disgust system is just really stronger in some people, just as just a distribution. I mean, it's sort of boring. Um, that you would you would get, oh, the disgust sensitivity is so low in some people, and there's just like a market for um uh um for sort of uh I don't know how to put it, but just yeah, I mean uh uh do you see you're the byproduct of just sort of like the discuss sensitivity is so low with the caveat of Josh that it's not going to be like a meeting stale yogurt or something or expired yogurt. But is that a different account? Or or is your account that there's sort of more functionality, that it's a signal or a cue of uh that's sort of in the marketplace of like I'm uh I'm more aroused by you than this other person. Yeah, so I would so I would make the prediction that people who engage in kinky practices will be judged as more aroused than people who are not engaged in kinky practices. And if we're trying to say estimate the probability that someone's faking an orgasm, I would predict that um a a person who is engaged in a kinky practice would be viewed as less likely to have faked the orgasm. And so I would view it as a costly signal. And because we are aroused by the other by our partner's arousal itself, then those costly signals should be arousing to us because they're signaling to us in a hard-to-fake way that our partner is aroused and we should be aroused by our partner's arousal. And that can create a kind of feedback loop where each partner is aroused by the other's arousal, which is you know they're aroused by our arousal, and so forth. And so uh for that reason kinky practices can create mutual uh arousal uh uh through this this signaling function. Um and so if it's just um a random variation I wouldn't necessarily expect it to take uh to take on this the signaling function. Right. Yeah. And the and the argument then is maybe, and this is like obvious when you say it out loud, but it's that there's design for sexual recipient receptivity in the partner. And that's the primary target of sort of like this is how aroused I am. And there's design for gauging that, which makes sense, right? For lots of reasons. Yes, exactly. So the argument isn't that kinky practices themselves are adaptations, is they're a byproduct of uh systems for gauging partner sexual arousal, uh and um avoiding uh sexual deception, uh, and trying to accurately gauge arousal and and in turn um calibrating your own arousal to uh estimates of your partner's arousal, and kinky practices emerge as a byproduct uh of those um of those systems of trying to gauge arousal or not. And they emerge perhaps in cultures where um that are more sexually uh liberal uh in terms of norms and and and and what have you and then they probably are less likely to emerge where um sex is more um taboo, I guess. Yeah, cool. Josh, do you um this is a slight change of topic, but it's still in the neighborhood is um do you ever encounter people when they're talking to you or misunderstanding or understanding your theories I think to some people it might sound sort of reductive that um well the reason why we have these um uh adaptations is because of pathogens. Like I think like you know that we we prefer to think well it's like something like David's like you know ideology, right? Sort of um the idea that sort of anything is driven by pathogen avoidance. Uh how do uh how do humans view that idea? And I can imagine two things. One is some people pushing against it because they're like, why do why does our highfalutin psychology care about something so low brow is disease? But then another version would be like, yeah, it's good that we don't like out groups because they're riddled with pathogens and like lice, and you know, like obviously that's like rhetoric of of um So, like, have you have you brushed up against either of those reactions where one is sort of like, how dare you contaminate the ivory tower with disease? We don't, we don't we need to worry about that. We're doing math and science. And then the other version is like, you know, racist xenophobia that uses disease, you know, as a cudgel. So um I'll I'll give a brief anecdote about a social psychologist named Paul Rosin, who was maybe the first and most well-known disgust researcher. In a paper he wrote in I think the 1980s, he commented on how no one was researching disgust. And it might be because when you tell people you research disgust, they draw some really weird inferences about you. Why would you why would you study that? You know, you have to be thinking about these weird things. It's kind of like responses to people who work in a morgue or something like that, undertakers. And uh I I've experienced that a little bit. Uh so not talking about pathogens is actually uh a little bit less of that reaction. But if you say you research disgust or you're interested in disgust, um you do get some weird looks. That said, relative to evolutionary psychologists who study mating or maybe even politics, I think that I found very little pushback. I think that people are very open to the idea that we have specialized aspects of our psychology for navigating pathogens. I think that it's not controversial or offensive or butting up against other kinds of priors or ways of looking at the world or science in the way that some of these other topics are. It seems orthogonal to a lot of other theoretical approaches within social psychology. And I think people find it both a part of it has to be true, um, B important, and C perfectly compatible without uh stepping on any toes. Um, so in terms of evolutionary psychologists sometimes getting some resistance in terms of uh scientific, ideological or political ideological reasons, I really have experienced very little of that in my career. Cool. And then the the other half was like the sort of cudgel of racists pathogens sort of thing. Yeah. Uh yeah, I I haven't run into too many racists that I'm aware of. Or at least I I haven't um I haven't gotten pushback from perspectives that might be motivated by seeing races as differentially clean or wanting to uphold the idea that there's some something essential in our categorization of races or groups that does have some correspondence with a real threat like pathogens. I know those people are out there, but they haven't really engaged in my research so much, and I haven't had conversations with them. Yeah, cool. Um, I I was just gonna ask about um some other areas of discussed research that may not be holding up so well. Um, like the idea that we're grossed out by, say, fat people or old old people or people with physical deformities or abnormalities that make them look different or weird. Uh the idea there, presumably, is that this is a kind of dumb pathogen avoidance system, and we're just kind of being grossed out by anyone who deviates from species typical proportions or whatever. Um, I uh am skeptical of that. Uh it seems like a pretty dumb way to design a pathogen avoidance system. But I think what might be going on there is that the reason why we're grossed out uh by, say, you know, physical abnormalities is that w what it's really cueing is low social value, uh, or or perhaps the expectation that others will view the the person as low social value. And that is driving the disgust response. Do you do you buy that that way of thinking about it? I do. I should say that some of these hypotheses were generated in the the mid to late aughts, uh, the obesity and the um the elderly. And there was some preliminary evidence published consistent with that, but again, with methods that were kind of standard for the time. And those ideas, I think, have really stuck around in the literature, but based pretty much only on some studies that don't provide the most diagnostic evidence for the hypothesis, I would say. And so there's not been a lot of recent research looking at pathogen avoidance and obesity. I would guess to the extent to which there is a kind of pathogen avoidance response toward people with those features. It is based on social value or the idea that in certain ecologies, obesity is associated with other features that people interpret as diagnostic of infection. So we talked about the kind of skin coloration differences that correspond with inflammatory responses in laboratory experiments. If you're in the US and people with a BMI of 35, you know, they might be in uh settings where they're not getting a lot of physical activity, which affects vascular health. Um, they're not eating a lot of nutrient-rich uh foods, which can affect, I I forget the name, carotene, some something with carotens that can affect the type of skin coloration that people find attractive in mates and social partners and take as diagnostic to metabolic condition potentially, and maybe also contagiousness, that there you might have something where you're treating BMI or obesity as a Q2 infection. Whereas if you're in some foraging society and you have someone of a similar BMI, they're only going to maintain that if they're getting a lot of nutrients and if they're in fairly good condition and able to resist and have high tolerance for pathogens. So I I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there is something where some features of people who are obese are being interpreted as related to infection. But I'm guessing that most of it is the social value hypothesis that obesity is associated with low social value for a number of reasons. A lot of these for individuals are probably perceptions that other people find obese people to be less valuable. And therefore, you know, you're just not willing to invest in that pathogen risk that's present for any interaction partner. Right. And what's great is about that is that it's eminently testable, this idea. You could look at disgust toward people with physical abnormalities or obese people or whatever, and see if that uh if the relationship between the physical abnormality and the disgust is mediated by say a welfare trade-off ratio. And if that accounts for the relationship, then that would confirm the hypothesis that this is driven by social valuation uh rather than um a uh the uh a pathogen cue per se. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. You know, another interesting thing is that out of out of being very overweight versus being very underweight, I would suspect that underweight individuals are probably um that would be more similar to the appearance of someone who is uh struggling to handle an infection than someone who's very overweight. That hasn't really been I don't I can't say that it hasn't been proposed, but I'm not familiar with the test of that hypothesis in the literature. On that note of somebody struggling to deal with infection, uh, one of the standing most important questions for all evolutionary psychologists to answer is what's up with zombies? Uh, have you thought about that? Uh do you have a pet theory of zombies? I've never thought of zombies, I'm afraid. And um, because we talked about this Colton uh in his uh I think we talked about Colton Swivner uh in the morbidly curious stuff. Um in just the genre of horror. Um and right there's like a lot of cues of, you know, this is a this is a incapacitated, con specific with sort of a lot of cues of, you know, I I don't know a channel edithagan like zoonotic infection too, right? Like that's another I mean it seems like a supernormal stimulus of pathogen risk. I mean, like their flesh is literally falling off their body. Exactly. And the zom their zombiehood is literally contagious. Yeah, they're eating brains. They're exactly like it feels like a very deep scrope. Yeah, it's exactly of like a zoonotically infected conspecific who's coming for you, who's like got rabies or something. Yeah. Yeah, it it's really interesting because um people who have severe infections, they don't move around much. Um and I I was I was an anthropology minor at ASU where I did my bachelor's degree, and I took multiple classes in the the evolution of infectious disease. And my professor was fond of talking about how people pictured Ebola as zombies running after you. Yeah. Because Ebola, you know, it's a hemorrhagetic, hemorrhagic, hemorrhagic. Yeah. I think I'm mispronouncing that. Anyway, um, it causes bleeding. But uh, you know, people are just listless, they're laying down, it's not like they're vomiting blood. Well, it's not like there's blood pouring from their pores all the time. And uh, this is gonna be the case with most infections. And so when you think about zombies, whether they're sprinting like in the 28 Days Later franchise, or kind of shuffling along like Dawn of the Dead, these are pathogen risks that you're almost never going to encounter. When I talk about emotional reactions to pathogen threats, you know, emotion researchers might think about emotions varying along the lines of along an approach or avoidance continuum. Disgust and fear are both avoidance emotions. But the thing with disgust is that pathogens are not chasing you. You know, viruses and bacteria, um, they don't have legs, they can't travel long distances. They get in you by you touching something that has them on them. Um, lions and tigers and bears, these are the things that have their own legs and their own motivations to get to you. And that's where you need different kinds of coordinating affective responses that motivate a different types of avoidance reaction. And so looping back to zombies a little bit, it is interesting that kind of this archetype is combining the paths to threat with the locomotion. Other than saying that's interesting, I haven't thought about zombies beyond this. Yeah, I think it may be worth just saying, like, too, like this is also like the natural selection of like vectors, right? So disease vectors. So like from a pathogens perspective, you can't you have to maintain your spreadability, right? So this is why diseases that involve like mosquitoes can really um incapacitate the the victim or the host. But other diseases that require, you know, interaction, like if you if you really incapacitate a host right away, that might curtail your ability to spread, right? So like a cold, the person can still get up, walk around and like spread it. But if you immediately incapacitate the person, then you're not going to spread. And so that's why, for example, like you know, diseases that are spread by mosquitoes or other like vectors that are not the primary host can be more virulence. So it's this virulence spreadability trade off. And that's also something you kind of get from an evolutionary approach that you might not think of otherwise. Yeah, that's exactly right. So uh Paul Ewold wrote a book that uh also inspired me when I was an undergraduate, the evolution of infectious disease, largely making this broad art argument. And arboviruses, these are things spread by vectors or insect vectors. If falciparum malaria causes someone to just be bedbound for a week, well, the mosquito can just go to him and bring the parasite to uh to someone else. And of course, that's not in the mosquitoes' interest either. The parasite is also manipulating the mosquito. Bibonic plague is similar. So the rats are running around with the fleas. It it does get a little bit complex with these trade-offs. Uh, and there's uh, you know, asymptomatic periods also influence this. Um, how naive the population is. I'm I'm not really deep in the literature, but I've been told that it's not quite as straightforward as we might think in terms of just selection to low virulence versus spreadability. But yes, ultimately it is not a thing that only an evolutionary perspective gets you. Yeah, cool. Speaking of an evolutionary approach, and you know, we can transition to other stuff. I saw you at the most recent HBES, and you had a diatribe against evolutionary mismatch. And I at the time I didn't even have anything about evolutionary mismatch in any of my work, but like since I thought about free will, um, I'm arguing that mismatch is important about free will. But I still think f mismatch is over over uh extended. But I don't know, do you still have the do you want to give us the the your your take on evolutionary mismatch being uh and what do you think about it? Yeah, I I think I gave you that. Um, I would call it a monologue after a few beers. So maybe maybe it did turn into a diatribe. Maybe the bar was just loud. So no, it was all the above. It was, it was uh, yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, sure. Uh so I I've been there's been something about the concept of mismatch that has struck me as um uh not quite right for several years, and just slowly I've I've kind of been able to articulate a few of those reasons, although I haven't really talked with people about them other than a few side conversations. So maybe this can be a nice exercise that the audience can also listen around with. So the idea of evolutionary mismatch, as it's articulated in the evolutionary psychology literature, is that we have adaptations that are specialized for ancestral environments and are good, are good for our fitness. But the environment has changed in some way. And it's often, authors often say that the environment has changed more rapidly than we've had time to evolve psychological adaptations or non psychological other types of adaptations to catch up, to then behave adaptively in this new environment. And so these mechanisms are no longer adaptive. uh, they no longer have the same fitness associations. And um authors often say that this has consequences for our well-being and our values and this type of stuff. And so um, is there anything that you guys have to add to that in kind of the boilerplate definition of a mismatch that I've missed? Uh the example that people love to throw out is junk food, that we gorge ourselves on on junk food because it was scarce in ancestral environments and that causes all sorts of health problems. People sometimes talk about pornography uh as a mismatch. Um trying to think of other examples of the case. not to deal with large scale social dynamics, um, whether that involves like meeting strangers or understanding complicated social dynamics. Like the argument is social reactions and understandings are plainly for a smaller scale interpersonal world, not a large scale international world, for example. Would be another example, yeah. So these are good examples. And I did listen to your guys' interview with uh Daniel Nettle, which I enjoyed quite a bit. And Daniel has uh written about and argued nicely on your uh podcast that the I this junk food idea doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, and that um in ancestral environments we should have you know, not rarely encountered situations where we could gorge ourselves on honey, for example. And that lots of other animals, non-human animals, have kind of stop mechanisms to keep themselves from overconsuming calories. And that obesity is not just eating too much sugar. There's a bunch of other factors during development that seem to lead people to vary in their BMI and their obesity and how they store body fat, etc. So I think that that is a nice pushback to how some people have thought about in terms uh junk food and just our modern food ecology mismatching with our evolved psychology. Um, but I further question if the basic concept of mismatch is useful to evolutionary psychologists. I question the coherence of the idea. Um, and I'll I'll I'll give you a few reasons why. Uh one of them is that you know, if if you take the Santa Barbara style uh evolutionary perspective, which both of you guys do, and it's kind of the mainstream capital E, capital P evolutionary psychology, it's uh its orientation is to make hype uh generate and test hypotheses about design features, not to look at the fitness consequences of those design features in any specific ecology, um, especially a specific ecology at a specific time. And so just even saying that this is mismatch because it has a different effect on fitness seems to be conflating, you know, some kind of behavioral ecology perspective with an evolutionary psychology perspective in a way that's not really furthering knowledge in either area. But further, when we make these claims about a mismatch, no one is actually measuring fitness. So it's not that it's unfalsifiable, it's just never actually tested if it's a mismatch. Further, there's no consideration typically in what kind of phenotype would actually be matched, so to speak. So let's for a second go back to the junk food example. Um, we say that our preferences for sugar are mismatched in the modern environment because ancestrally, sugar, you know, glucose or fructose, or I'm afraid that I might not be getting the terms exactly correct, but they're in fruits that have a lot of vitamins and nutrients that are really fitness good for us. Now they're in these low nutrient foods that are fitness neutral or fitness negative. Well, is the proposal then that our taste perception should find sugar disgusting right now? If we just could not tolerate the taste of sugar, is that a better phenotype than the current phenotype that we have? And are we then expecting, I would guess no, that people who find any flavors of sugar to be disgusting, that outcome would be worse than our current phenotypes that have their current sugar preferences. So are we saying that between these two kinds of theoretical endpoints that we could have, that anything is going to be a mismatch if it's not perfectly calibrated to the best fitness consequences of sugar preferences in this specific environment. If that's the case, are our adaptations mismatched in every single ecology we could be in? Because humans live in a ton of different ecologies. And in fact, I mean that's the case now. But if we think about how the EEA, the environment of evolutionary adaptedness, is conceptualized And just borrowing from how Tuby and Cosmes have discussed this, it's a statistical composite of the invariances across ecologies. But this is going to be a ton of different ecologies with a ton of different food sources, a ton of different social structures, et cetera. And so we should be kind of, you know, aiming for some composite or average of all of these, not saying that, okay, this is how the condition was in the ancestral past, um, and our current environment is different than this one thing. The reality is every ecology is going to be different in some way from the statistical composite. And so both everything is a mismatch and nothing is a mismatch. And the final kind of point that I think I'll make is that identifying things as having bad fitness consequences or matching poorly is not at all straightforward. So if we think about uh snake detection, for example, so this is the classic kind of signal detection or error management theory uh outcome, there are asymmetric costs to false alarms versus misses in detecting snakes. And so the idea is that if you give people some ambiguous stimulus, like a little piece of wood that's shaped kind of like a snake, people's intuitive immediate response might be to categorize that as a snake until they get more information. And you could look at that and say, well, our minds are mismatched to that because we've acted like it's a snake, even though it's not a snake. And we've paid some metabolic cost and attentional cost to doing that. And a perfectly matched psychology wouldn't make that type of mistake. But the design feature is to make that kind of mistake because ancestrally there are asymmetric costs to having the mental mechanism be biased in one way versus the other. So simply, simply, the uh idea that we can observe something that doesn't appear to be optimized for the modern environment or for any kind of ecology, it's not at all clear to me that that's evidence of the ecology being different or there being a misfiring in terms of the mental mechanism, it might be, it might have error uh by design for the benefits of having a certain number of errors over a certain amount of time. Um, I might have one or two others, but I'll uh I'll leave it there. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna, um, your your physical neighbor, Mark von Vogt, uh has has made a lot of mismatch. Have you had discussions with him about this? Um You know, I I chatted with Mark a little bit about this a while ago, but haven't chatted about uh it since then. I would be curious, uh curious to do so. I don't know if he listens to the podcast. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Um, I mean, I think to characterize my understanding of how he uses it, like my read of his work is often he's talking to like organizational psychologists and sort of saying, like, look, I'm studying leadership, and things that you might not think would factor into people's leadership decision making are leaking in because they were evolutionarily relevant. Like, and I think like his argument is the reason to use mismatch. And I actually don't, I don't know what I think of this, but I'm curious what you think about this. Like his argument, I think, would be like, it's it's code for sort of like you would think this would be irrelevant, but it turns out it is relevant. Like, kind of like the pathogen thing, right? Like if you're coming from a business perspective, if you don't take an evolutionary approach, then you might think this would be irrelevant. But it turns out our evolved psychology is like for a world where other considerations other than like profitability is relevant, and there's leakage of these other things that are in fact, you know, hurting profitability, for example, maybe. I don't know. Um, but it's because our minds desire are evolved for evolution and offspring and in a natural ecology, not you know, maximizing the the bottom line. I don't know. I mean, does that what what what what would let that would be my argument that like that would be Marx's argument? I don't know. What what what is the what do you think about that? Well I I'm quite sympathetic to this idea that if you're talking to lay people and they have some impression that if there's any evolutionary function of the mind, it's to figure things out and maximize utility or make us feel good or something like that, that it can be rhetorically useful to say that look, our minds evolve for one thing, and uh that's not perfectly matched with what our we consciously might be trying to do in a business environment. Right. My my comments earlier are more how useful this is, this concept is to us as evolutionary psychologists. And uh the the term pops up in a lot of scientific papers of academics talking to each other and in fact evolutionary psychologists talking to each other. And I I wonder, um I mean I'm I don't know if it's been a if I'm right here, if these thoughts are sensible. I don't know if it's been a huge uh handicap to our field, if there's if we've lost out on something by allocating time or energy to this idea, or if uh, you know, it's just something that people feel obligated to write in a paragraph without thinking about it too deeply and then moving on and doing the same stuff they would otherwise. Right. Like it's boilerplate. I mean, to straw man your argument, and I'll make this even stronger than what you're saying. I'm not saying you're saying this would be it's it's sort of reflecting a laziness about not being adequately design-minded, and that if you take input, output, output, input, output process seriously, then you you it doesn't buy you anything. And if you just translate everything into like, here's one account, it says this is the design features, here's another account, these are the design features. You know, you're not really it's not really buying you anything. I don't know. Is that is that fair or you know, I'm not saying you're saying that, but is that I think it is fair. And uh, I mean, you guys have discussed multiple times how hard evolutionary psychology can be since we have our own evolved psychologies to be perceiving ideas and individuals and uh our lived realities in in different ways that aren't necessarily reflecting the design features of the mind. And I I do think that it's it can be easy for evolutionary psychologists to think in these terms of mismatch because it's a very lay intuitive way to think about evolution. And so even if you're being extremely rigorous in one area and you're very focused on something, uh that it can be easy to slip into that kind of layperson type of thinking in other areas or at other times. Yeah. It's easy to do FSI because it's just uh just so stories. So Yeah. No, interestingly, I feel like, you know, the just so story uh might be valid when it comes to like lazy mismatch stories. Like it's easy to tell a lazy mismatch story to explain pretty much anything. And I think that speaks to the problem you're you're raising, uh Josh, is that this is not a useful tool and it can be very easily abused to uh explain anything you want to explain. Um it's it's the opposite of the kind of adaptationism and design mindedness that we want to be taking. And it I I think probably part of the motivation is um is that it gives us a kind of power to say you're wrong and bad and here's how you can be right and smart. And I have the answers for how you can you know live a better life and you know I've discovered the source of all of our problems. uh, you know, give me status and attention for for giving you the solutions. Um, I think it's too easy to slip into that mindset of of wanting to have the answers, of wanting to, you know, give people solutions to all their problems. When really what which what we should be focused on is first understanding how the damn thing works. And then once we really get have a good handle on how the mind works, then maybe we could start to get into tentative, you know, proposals and solutions to people's problems and applications. But first, we just have to understand the thing. And I think we too often lose sight of that and we skip ahead to the proposal part of it too quickly. Yeah, I'll loop back into something else that your guest Daniel Nettle said a few episodes ago, which was kind of evolutionary psychology 1.0 or first generation evolutionary psychology was really popular because it was saying all these things that are obviously true that other academics didn't want to really talk about or dismiss away with language that's kind of non-intuitive. Evolutionary psychology 2.0 or more in-depth stuff is less penetrable and less intuitive. And I think there might be some overlap with mismatch in that it's really kind of the evolutionary psychology 1.0. But then if you uh if that terminology makes any sense. But when you when you drill down to the meta theory and thinking about trying to identify and understand design features, the the concept loses some of its appeal, some of its benefits and coherence. Yeah. I mean, to bring it back to pathogen and discuss, do you think some of that early pathogen and discuss work was a little bit by like a mismatchy? Yeah, I think so. I think that it might be drawing a little bit on uh kind of lay intuitions about how these systems might work. Although I'll also say that I I think that it's perfectly scientifically defensible to think about the system being very general. And that I I don't think that the uh the people working early in this area were doing anything intellectually wrong or lazy. Uh I I think that um it was an open question. And my read of the data is that there's greater specificity than first assumed. But I wouldn't attribute that outcome to laziness or anything by those researchers. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think to just say the loud part out loud is my read of that work was people wanted genuinely to provide a biologically plausible account of a phenomenon. And you're allowed to say, be speculative and say, here, here's this other biologically plausible thing. Maybe it accounts for this thing that doesn't yet have an adequate biological grounding. Yeah. Yeah. But it might be wrong. And that's that's great. Then we'll we'll know something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, part of why I love your work, Josh, is that you've you've um led the charge in sort of clearing away some of these first pass ideas that um were wrong turns or or misleading in various ways. And this isn't to disparage the people who came up with them, but you know, this is part of how science works, is we we come up with ideas and we, you know, dismiss the ones that aren't working or that aren't are colliding uh with with uh reality. Um and uh uh I I like that you have shaped my thinking both on um on outgroups, also on on this this idea that uh discuss sensitivity should lead you to uh prefer facial symmetry and sexual dimorphism more. I was reading one of your papers on that, that that turns out that hasn't really panned out. Um I'm curious, what do you think about this idea that uh pathogen sensitivity should relate to conformity. I know this is another one that was popular in the field. I'm curious. Has has that stood stood the test of time or has that been shaky as well? You know, I I can't comment on it too much. Um, my collaborator Florian van Leuwen, who also works in the Netherlands, has published a like an eight-study paper evaluating that idea. And my my read of it is that uh this is not a robust phenomenon. Okay. But I'm afraid that I don't recall enough of the nuances to comment on it deeply. I can uh recommend a pivot. Uh, we'll see how deeply we can get into it in the interest of time. And that is a different aspect of disgust, and that is how it relates to moral judgment. Yeah, what is morality and disgust here? This could this could be like another two-hour podcast. So uh we'll we'll see if we want to do a 15-minute now or uh just go for another two hours. But uh so, yes, and this is a strong pivot. Oh, I'm glad you did. I would have, I would have done it myself. I was looking to get to this topic myself. So yeah. Maybe not quite as much of a high-level overview as I did with uh pathogen avoidance, but there's a classic paper in social psychology by John Heidt, who uh researchers might be more familiar with for moral foundations theory or for his more recent work on advocating against social media for teenage girls. But his uh highest impact paper, and I'm not sure if this has the same impact as the Henrik et al. Weird paper, it's like that kind of level of citations. But it was effectively arguing that a lot of our moral judgments are not stemming from moral reasoning and considerations of uh who's been harmed or victimized by certain interactions, but rather by social or emotional intuitions. And then our argumentation afterward, or our just, well, our justifications and our reasoning is actually argumentation for why we're having these judgments. And one of Height's examples really focused on, or some of Height's examples really focused on disgust related things because they seem to be victimless crimes. And he pointed out what, you know, it's kind of a thought experiment. It was described as a study, although it was never really uh published. Um, this famous in the moral psychology literature story about Mark and Julie. Mark and Julie are brother and sister, they they love each other deeply, they go on vacation, uh, they care about each other, and so they decide to have sex. Um, and then in the story, all of the kind of plausible harms that could result from this are neutralized in the vignette. They take Shizan hormonal contraception, they use a condom, they're not emotionally damaged by it, they never do it again, no one ever finds out about it. And according to this idea, participants are morally dumbfounded. They still find that it's wrong, even though they can't justify it at that point. So this led to an idea that people's intuitions about disgust are feeding into and producing a lot of their moral judgments. And this led to a small explosion of research in social psychology in the mid to late aughts, testing whether if you make people disgusted, that increases the degree to which they will morally condemn actions. And so there were a lot of, you could call them disgust primes, people smelling bad odors or looking at gross pictures or being hypnotized. And finding after finding after finding showed that when you make people disgusted, they think that stealing is more wrong. You know, all these individual items that describe something that could be morally condemned. People condemn them more on a liker scale. Well, in 2015 or so, there was a meta analysis of this literature, and uh the outcome was that there's nothing there, that the meta analyzed effect size is very, very small. And if you take into account uh publication bias, uh it's it's effectively zero. And so this idea uh combined with another line of research on um not priming, but uh Reports of disgust toward immoral behaviors. So not feeling disgusted and then condemning something, but seeing something that's condemnable and saying you're disgusted by it has led to kind of a backlash against the idea that disgust is at all relevant to moral psychology. And some social psychologists have made uh strong arguments, or at least strong statements along these lines, that there's nothing important about it discussed in terms of moral cognition. Um, and uh others, uh, you had uh Leo Fatucci on a while ago. And he has also argued uh that purity can be just boiled down to perceptions of self-control and other kinds of more general um dimensions of uh reciprocity and interdependence, etc. And in some of those arguments, there's been some connection back to this discussed literature, although it's it's not a complete uh critique. I think that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater a little bit too early here. And so a lot of the research that I'm currently doing uh alongside the pathogen research is trying to better under untangle this potential relation between disgust and morality, which might be several different types of relationships, and try to understand why that relationship might exist. Have you have you discovered anything so far? Do you have any uh guesses as to what you'll find? Uh so we do we do have some findings that I'm kind of excited about, but um maybe uh maybe just think higher level what the phenomenon are that we're talking about. So, for one thing, we talk about disgust as uh one thing. It's kind of a folk emotion. And there's been a lot of resistance to talking about moral disgust because when people say disgust, they're thinking specifically about pathogen disgust. And they're saying that if something doesn't have, from an emotions perspective, um appraisals and action tendencies, uh, et cetera, that correspond with pathogen disgust, then it's not really discussed. And so, if we're talking about any relation between disgust and morality, that's not really disgust. That's just some kind of metaphor, that's really anger, or that's people being confused, or something like that. So I think that that's really limited our scientific understanding about this relationship, in which people are really saying pathogen disgust is the only thing important in terms of all these things that we could call disgust. And so if there's disgust in the moral domain, that's kind of a category error. And we shouldn't really be even thinking about that as something distinct from anger. My lab does have a lot of findings showing that you can get distinct reports of disgust versus anger to moral violations, dependent on whether the moral violation impose costs on you versus someone else. So if you take the exact same action and you describe it as happening to you, the participant versus someone else, you get different effects on disgust versus anger. If it happened to someone else, disgust is higher than if it happened to you. And if it happened to you, anger is higher than it happened to someone else. And we further ask participants: what can what kind of motivations do you have in response to this moral violation? And we divide them into direct aggression versus indirect aggression. And we see that reports of anger relate to desires to directly aggress against someone, whereas reports of disgust relate to desires to indirectly aggress towards someone. We have several studies replicating this finding, also showing that the identity of the victim in terms of their interpersonal value relates differently to disgust and anger. So the more valuable the victim is, the more angry you are, but not necessarily the more disgusted. And when we show uh participants photos of people making disgust versus anger expressions and disgust versus anger vocalizations, they make inferences about direct aggression and indirect aggression differently across those. So again, if I interrupt real quickly, have you also looked at the social value of the perpetrator in addition to the social value of the victim? Because you might expect that if we uh view the perpetrator uh as having lower social value, that that might predict greater disgust relative to anger. That that's a major part of what we're looking into right now. So um it when when I tell people about this uh research program, you know, I tell them that in the moral foundations theory literature, a lot of the disgust and morality literature, the ideas are really tied to the content of the action itself rather than who the who is involved in the action. But if you think about, and uh sorry to get political here, guys, but um there was uh this was topical at the time when I was giving these talks a lot. Uh Donald Trump had recently gone to Arlington National Cemetery and had this photo op where he had thumbs up and a big grin over a guy's grave. Um, and you had very different responses depending on who you were and what your value of Trump was, your coalitional value and him as a leader in your coalition. And people who um were not in the the MAGA coalition often expressed disgust toward this. Um, and so and people who are not in the MAGA coalition were not bothered by it at all. Um who were in the who were in the MAGA coalition, yeah. Yes, sorry, people who were in the MAGA coalition uh were not bothered at all. Um, and so that has something very specific to do with the identity of that person and what their interpersonal or coalitional value is to you. And you could also think uh about anger having a different relation with valuation in that for people who are higher value to you, or people who you're going to have a long-term relationship with, directly intervening and broadcasting how you view your valuation, how you view, how you perceive how you're valued by them and changing that and letting that be known can be beneficial to you versus being discussed by them and maybe not directly intervening, but spreading reputationally damaging information about that person, that's not beneficial to you if that person is a valuable interaction partner to you. So, anyway, this is one phenomenon of the relation between disgust and morality in that we we observe people engaging in behaviors and we often have these morally condemning responses, but the affective tinges of those responses differ depending on who is affected by the action and who is engaging in the action. And I think that just saying that disgust is irrelevant to this and we should just be thinking about general outrage or this just being anger loses out on understanding a lot of important things. The other body of findings is that when people engage in behaviors that you yourself would be disgusted to engage in, we sometimes condemn those individuals. Again, that's a very different phenomenon, potentially, with a different explanation that needs to be demanded. But I think that that is a phenomenon, and it's not just representative of assessing people on self-control or assessing the degree to which their behaviors harm other individuals, which are kind of the alternatives that have claimed that there's nothing unique or important about the relation between disgust and morality. So I can just share with you guys a couple of findings that we have that I find are interesting and supportive of this idea. One is that we've sampled vegetarians who are a really nice population for the testing this idea because they vary on the degree to which, well, they vary on their feelings toward uh meat eaters. They also vary on how much disgust they would experience by consuming meat. So we asked them specifically a bunch of questions with imagine that you ate a veggie burger that would have been cooked in the same pan as a beef burger. Imagine you ate a pasta sauce and you later found out that it actually had some ground beef in it, et cetera. And then we ask them how negatively they feel about individuals who engage in a variety of what you could call norm violations. Some of these are cooperative violations, some of these are hygiene violations, some of these are unusually large amounts of eating meat. And what we find is that vegetarians self-disgust, how disgusted they would be by eating meat, uniquely and most strongly predicts their negative evaluations of these meat-eating actions, not the hygiene actions or the cooperative norm interactions. And further, it predicts that independent of their moral motivations for being a vegetarian. So we also ask them: Are you a moral vegetarian or a health vegetarian? we have them complete individual differences measures that assess how strongly their vegetarianism is motivated by these moral motivations. There's really the strong residual and strongest effect of their own disgust toward the behavior in terms of condemning other individuals for engaging the behavior. We have further research that's extended this, where we use multi level modeling approaches, where we both look at within participant the degree to which they're disgusted by a bunch of things that could evoke disgust, and then their condemnation of other individuals who engage in these behaviors. And the relation within participant between their own disgust toward engaging in behaviors and how strongly they condemn people is there. And that's stronger than if you do the same thing with other emotions like fear. So you see how scared they would be of doing different things. And then you ask them how much they condemn people who engage in these behaviors that could be scary. And so we we think that there is something here. It is important, and it hasn't been adequately tested by just using priming studies or having discussed sensitivity instruments. Um, and we have some other ideas as to why this might be the case, uh, but we haven't really tested those, but we could talk about some of those ideas. I I would love to. I mean, that that's actually absolutely fascinating. Um, really excited to you know read the stuff when it comes out, and that those are those are really cool results. I'd love to hear you know what your thinking is on the on the why question. So it's really strongly influenced by ideas that were originally developed by uh Peter DeSholy and Rob Kurzman. And those were, of course, probably influenced by John Tuby and Lita Cosmes as well. So Peter and Rob, in one of their great papers on the mysteries of morality, proposed that you might see disgust being moralized sometimes because it could be acting as a cue to whether you have any advantage in engaging behavior in the future. And their general idea is that people should be having moral sentiments that contribute to shaping or resisting rules that are either beneficial, shaping rules that are beneficial to you, or resisting rules that are costly to you. The idea that you feel disgust toward doing something is a good indication that you would never do it yourself. And so there's very little cost toward endorsing rules against that. Now, going back to uh Deb Lieberman's conversation with you guys on this topic, Deb has a slightly different view on this, I think, although the our views are quite complementary. Deb really emphasizes the idea that people who engage in behaviors that other find others find disgusting are good candidates for exploitation, and that they're just generally going to be low value. So this could be a good kind of coordination mechanism for people to all gang up on the same individual. I think that that probably happens, although I think that there are probably other types of processes in which people just don't resist rules that don't actually impose costs on them. And so through processes of cultural evolution, you can kind of get these as gravity points where if rules are constantly or repeatedly being proposed and cycling through, and some of them are transmitted and maintained in populations. And part of what influences whether they're whether they're maintained and transmitted is people objecting to them or making arguments against them. Well, if if people only pay costs in terms of arguing against certain rules and they don't get any benefits from arguing against them, you could get these disgust-oriented ones popping up quite a bit and being a little bit sticky and a little bit cross-culturally prevalent. So I think that this line of thinking has something to say about the prevalence of incest taboos, which is kind of a puzzle because almost no one wants to engage, wants to sleep with their siblings or their parents. It can happen occasionally, but it's very, very rare. And the actual consequences of it for most people are almost zero. Um, so it's not good for your kin. Like if your sibling sleeps with your parent, that has some inclusive fitness uh costs to you. Um, but for other people, it's it's not really all that relevant. Um, what we should expect is that people really don't want to do it themselves, but to actually condemn other people and for this again to be so cross-culturally prevalent is kind of strange. Now, if you do think about the idea that if different rules are proposed all the time and certain ones are sticky and people just don't disagree with them, well, if people are, if incest is one of the most disgusting things that people could kind of imagine engaging in, you're going to have very little pushback. And then people can maybe coordinate around this specific rule. And so this might partially explain why you get so many rules around uh kind of minority sexual behaviors that most people would be disgusted to engage in. I think that this has something to say with the cross-cultural condemnation of homosexuality. So this is kind of difficult for um us weird researchers to completely understand, although us older millennials may be a little bit better than my Gen Z students, but Western Europeans and to an extent Americans are living in really extraordinary times in terms of acceptance of homosexuality. And when I show Pew research data on the proportion of individuals in different countries who think that uh homosexuality is unacceptable. Um, it's really shocking. Uh, and you get this across countries with very different economic systems and very different religions and very different cultural histories. And so for some reason, this has just been popping up in different areas. And of course, it's been transmitted uh into some areas. Um, But again, you get, you know, China, South Korea, the Middle East, Sub-Saharan Africa being very large with very different kinds of colonial histories and cultural transmission histories. And so you get this being fairly sticky, but you also have this fascinating phenomenon where it's quickly extinguished. So it seems like it'll never change until it does. And then it changes very quickly. And I think that this is also somewhat compatible with thinking about disgust shaping rules, in that if if we take the perspective of an average person in a society, and you know, the rule is proposed that homosexuality is wrong. And they implicitly think, okay, I engage in homosexuality, I'm disgusted by that thought. And that's not to say there's anything disgusting about homosexual individuals, but most people are disgusted by the thought of engaging sex with most other individuals. But if you're not homosexual, that thought uh might have a tinge of disgust. And that might be a cue to well, I'm never going to benefit from that behavior in the first place because I experience disgust toward it. So I'm not going to resist review uh rules that homosexuality is wrong. Well, if enough people start resisting that rule, then you also don't have much of a benefit in saying, no, I really, really want homosexuality to be wrong. Of course, some people do, depending on how many people in their coalition are saying that. But for a lot of people, this house could crumble pretty quickly if they're not in those coalitions where that rule is kind of a sacred value that's non-negotiable. And so you can have potentially these phenomena where it lasts at a very stable level for a long time, but then can crumble quickly. And I looked at general social survey data a while ago, and you saw very high, uh, very consistent ratings of homosexuality being extremely wrong or always wrong or something from when the survey started in the early 70s until the mid to late 90s. And then it just assessment after assessment. It's almost going down in a linear fashion. And that's not the case with other types of sexual rules. So another question on the survey was is adultery wrong? And there, you started out at almost the exact same level as homosexuality. It's kept at almost the exact same level. And there, that's a rule where pretty much everyone can be disadvantaged by having their spouse commit infidelity. So you should see people being much less flexible in dumping that once there's momentum from other people in doing so. And in fact, we do see, and I'm sometimes um approached with surprise from people in the polyamory community or the ethical non-monogamy community that, oh, this is getting really big. Um, and no, it's not. It's getting big within very, very small uh circles, but it's really not penetrating the broader population because people do perceive these costs in terms of their monogamous relationships. Yeah, so just to just to put a bow on that, I think that there is this relation between self-experience disgust and your degree, the way that you view other individuals who engage in these behaviors. And I think that part of the reason why these disgust-based rules seem to pop up a lot and be a little bit sticky is because of the the information that one's own experiences have discussed gives about the consequences of these behaviors or rules in the ecology. Fascinating stuff. Yeah. Super. Yeah, really important. I do kind of lean toward uh Deb's take here, and that um I I think it I I totally buy the logic that it is less that um s endorsing a rule against something that I find disgusting uh doesn't cost me anything, right? But it in order for for my own disgust to affect my moral judgments, it also has to affect the benefit side of it as well. Like if it merely didn't impose a cost on me, then I would be neutral about it. But um in order for me to actively morally campaign against something, there has to be something in it for me, some sort of benefit um for for for my own disgust to translate into moral judgment. And I think something like the deb reasoning where it gives me an opportunity to exploit or exclude or or dominate someone else, um, that that benefit side of things might also be playing a role here as well. And you could make the further prediction that when there is, say, greater resource scarcity, greater zero-sumness, greater incentive to exclude and exploit people, that you might uh see an increase in these kinds of uh disgust-based moral rules. And that people are just looking for opportunities to exclude people or exploit people and are actively searching the rule space uh for for rules that they can use to marginalize people because it's in a very zero-sum context or a very uh resource-limited context. And you might see these uh uh discuss-based rules more likely to pop up in those kinds of environments. I'm curious what you think of that idea. Yeah, that's that sounds uh totally plausible to me. Um and I I should um emphasize again that I think that these different perspectives are completely compatible. Um there there is a cost to not moralizing that is independent of benefits of exploitation, I think, in that if you if there's 10 people in a circle and nine of them have said, I think that um incest is wrong, and then you say, actually, I don't want to moralize that, or actually, I don't think it's that wrong, um, you could then be a target of that coalition. Correct. And so you could certainly benefit from ganging up on the person who's accused of committing incest. And there's probably a lot of overlap between that, but simply not agreeing with the moral sentiment when other people are advertising it or asking your opinion about it is a cost in of itself. That's true. Yeah, but uh but you but that presupposes that peop that you have the nine people who are coming out against it or g asking your opinion about it. And it it seems like it's still kind of mysterious why people would have an opinion about it or ask your you know your judgment about it in the first place. Like why why do people care at all? Um unless they're actively looking for rules that they can enforce and use to uh exploit or marginalize people. Yeah, no, I I think that's totally true. I mean, another question is should it be your own disgust toward engaging in the behavior versus your perception of how disgusted other people are toward engaging the behavior? So is your own disgust going to be diagnostic of uh of the exploitation value of this individual, or is your perception of um how disgusted other people? Yeah. And I think I think like a lot of people, uh, their moral outrage is just sort of throwing things on the wall and seeing what sticks. Like I think a lot of people like rail against things and everyone's like, why you why do you care about that? You know? I mean, I think some people are clever and really gauge the reaction of third parties. Like if you're if it seems like to me there's design in all of us to just sort of be morally outraged and just generate like this bothering me, I'm gonna say it out loud, but there's another um subset of people who are sort of like, um, I'm gonna look and see what gets reaction from people, like a politician, whether explicitly a politician or not. And that seems like it's a um a strategy uh of people, and there's real sensitivity to like what I'm getting a response from and not. And those are the people who are sort of like internalize the the ambient cultural reactions of people, but may not may not feel them themselves. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, that's a that's a good example of of a case where someone would actively benefit from from the rule, um, like a politician who might rise to power by uh demonizing uh say a group a group of people or a disgusting practice. Um I it it seems that you could test um the the deb perspective by seeing if say dark triad traits um uh interact with personal disgust uh to predict moral condemnation such that um I'm more likely to to moralize um behaviors I find disgusting if I'm a high dark triad person who's looking for opportunities to exploit people or to aggress against people. Uh and uh it seems like that would be a a a prediction entailed by by the deb perspective. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thought. Um, going back to John Heid's work and moral foundations theory, um, the idea there is that people vary in the degree to which they prioritize these different kinds of domains in terms of making their moral judgments. And some people prioritize purity more in deciding whether or not something is wrong. And, you know, I think that you can uh, regardless of whether the categorization of moral domains or or that idea is correct, it is recognizable that um, you know, you could have two people who are uh equally disgusted by yeah, engaging in some kind of sexual practice, and one of them is going to strongly morally condemn someone, and another person is going to say, uh, live and let live, or this is not my business. And understanding what separates those people in terms of personality variation, which you've referred to, um Pinsoff, or um kind of broader strategic orientations based on uh exploitation versus cooperation. There's also a thing of it's not just exploitation of certain outgroups, it even happens within an individual. Like I'm thinking like religious beliefs, where we are to sort of say, all of us are sinners, we all have bad parts of us, And I'm broadcasting an idea of we all have temptations to do the wrong thing. And I'm signaling we're all going to coordinate about the right thing to do. So the moralization is sort of like there's a counterfactual world where we all do the wrong thing. But I'm going to sort of um broadcast, we're going to curtail that in ourselves, but instead do this other thing. Um, and I think that also could be a benefit, David, without exploiting anybody, where it's sort of the what we're moralizing is we might all do the wrong thing, but I am advertising this is a way to be better or get better stuff or do the right thing, which is something organisms should care about. Um, But I get some benefits by being the leader of that. You might defer to me. I might have status. I might say, look, we've all had bad things happen to us. I'm going to show you the right way to do things. And so the moralization of what's bad may not be individuals that we exclude. It might be the paths that we might all take. And I'm going to say we might fall into moral badness. We might get bad outcomes. Listen to me, and I will guide you to the morally superior outcome. I think that's also a trope. And that and that can involve even not in excluding anybody per se, but just up paths of policy or or paths individuals might take, even within our own group. Hmm. I I like that way of thinking. So insofar as you care more about the right non-disgusting thing to do, you might be more likely to moralize the disgusting wrong thing to do. And that say if I if I care more about a certain type of of sexual strategy and and and I view that as the right path and I and I I really care about coordinating around that particular sexual strategy, I'm going to be more likely to moralize anything that is is outside of that sexual strategy or or deviant from it. Um whereas if I don't know Yeah, or even the reverse. It's just like the question is like, what would the benefit be? How would I benefit from moralizing that doesn't involve excluding somebody? And it would just be that I just do the calculation of I want to have high status, I want to be listened to, I don't want to exclude anybody. How can I square that circle? Well, I'm just gonna say, look, everybody who I'm not I'm not excluding anybody, but I'm just sort of saying, look, you should listen to me because there's a class of outcomes that we might all engage in that are disgusting or morally bad. But I can give you a way to avoid that. Um so it's just an example of so you might not even like care about the thing, but it's just you're like, okay, this is a way to get status without excluding anybody. Um, But still using that cudgel of disgust and moralization as a way to get your own status uh achieved. Yeah, that makes sense. Um we've been going on for so long, but I want to just get one last question because I've been thinking about I've I've been thinking about um alliances and and the role they might play in disgust. Uh, and so I've been doing some some math modeling work on the simple majority game, which is a three-player game where or or three or more where a subset of players coordinate to receive a benefit while uh the outsider to that subset incurs a cost. And so it's basically a coordination game, uh, where you can coordinate to get a benefit, and whoever is outside of the subset incurs a cost. Uh, and there are a number of situations that might apply to. Say there's a communal resource, we could form an alliance and exclude uh one or more people from that resource to get a higher share of it for ourselves. If we all have our own private resources, two of us could gang up on someone and take their resource, assuming they submit to us. These are all kind of versions of the simple majority game. And I I'm thinking of another of a bunch of different examples of this, how this would play out. But one one thing I've discovered is that there are a lot of uh ESSs or evolutionarily stable strategies in this game that relate to what I call transitivity. So the uh the friend of my friend is my friend, The enemy of my friend is my enemy. The uh friend of my enemy is my enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. So these are all uh ESSs in the simple majority game because they um facilitate coordination on an alliance. It's much easier for me to coordinate on an alliance with you if we share the same enemies and share the same friends, right? If we have different enemies and different friends, uh were going to disagree about what alliance we prefer, about who we prefer to be an insider and who we prefer to be an outsider. And so because of these transitivity rules, that creates a kind of social contagion, such that if I uh do something that signals my enmity toward the group or disloyalty to the group, um that not only means that you should um oppose me, you should oppose anyone who supports me. And if we use cues of similarity as cues of allegiance, then you might also want to oppose anything that's similar to me, or that suggests that you're similar to me, or that suggests that you're maybe even if you're a family member of me, uh my uh norm violation might contaminate to my family members because they're going to be viewed as my friends. And um, from the group's perspective, the friend of my enemy is my enemy. Right. And so because uh of these alliance dynamics, when you do anything that uh signals disloyalty or enmity toward a group of people, it creates a kind of contagion where everyone is rushing to signal that they oppose that person and anyone or anything who is associated with that person, which is isomorphic to the logic of contagion, right? In the same way, if that person is contagious, you also want to avoid that person and avoid anyone who has made contact with them and avoid any objects that have been in contact with that person. And so because the logic of contagion is similar with alliances and with pathogens, um, it would have been a very ideal motion, a motion to co-opt by natural selection to serve this new function of dealing with social contagion uh as opposed to pathogen contagion. I think this might uh explain some of the uh properties of moral disgust and that it's geared toward um the the kind of contagion that can flow through a social network when a moral violation is committed or when a signal of disloyalty is sent. And so I'm curious what what you think of that logic and whether that fits in with some of your research on on moral disgust. Yeah, what what you say about the common properties with physical contamination and contagion makes a lot of sense to me. And uh, you know, I what I really like about that, um, David, is uh you've taken something that kind of when you don't think too hard about it makes sense and you've kind of laid a foundation to understand it more systematically. Um there are critical differences, of course, in that uh with pathogen disgust, it really is about physical contact versus with moral disgust, um not so much, but it is maybe about being seen associating with the individual, as you suggest. Now, if we think about the types of uh behavioral motivations that we've observed that are corresponding with reports of disgust versus reports of anger, um these are related to indirect aggression, uh, damaging the person's reputation, gossiping about them, letting people know what they've done. And we've mostly been thinking about those things in terms of imposing costs on the individual. But uh gossip could also be protecting you from inferences from others that you agree or that you're uh an ally of that target. Um And uh, you know, oftentimes when people think about moral disgust versus pathogen disgust, the reason why there's a common word is that there is some commonality in the phenomenology, and there's some overlap in the facial expressions. Um, so, and of course, this gets encoded in language and it's not unique to English as well. Um, and so a question is is there something that's sufficiently overlapping in the in the phenomenology that's reflecting both of those functions, the the contamination avoidance, the contagion avoidance in terms of physical properties versus the contamination avoidance uh in terms of alliance detection or or cooperation. Um I I'm I'm not sure. You know, I don't have an answer to that. What the function of the phenomenology, if there is one in terms of uh discussed in the moral realm. In terms of facial expression or vocal expression, that could be co-opted pretty easily, I think, if there's a signal of contagion physically, that then people can make an inference of contagion perception more socially or symbolically. I could see that happening uh fairly easily. Well, I shouldn't say fairly easily. I could see that uh bridge happening. Um, you know, one thing that I've pondered about with this shared phenomenology, which people say that they're sick to their stomach. And I personally have experienced phenomenology that seems to overlap with smelling something bad toward social violations that others have engaged in. I think back to an analogy that Rob Kurzman made in terms of effort, in that you can have people talk about something being effortful in terms of mental effort related to, you know, the old ego depletion studies are not eating chocolate chip cookies or eating radishes instead, or having to identify circle dot every I in a sentence or something like this. Um, and that feels effortful, uh, not in an identical way, but in a similar enough way that it feels effortful to run a marathon or something like that, or lift weights a lot. Um, and that this similarity in phenomenology isn't reflecting underlying similarity in uh metabolic effort or uh or something like that, which that assumption kind of led some research down the wrong path in trying to explain mental effort. But it's probably some kind of representation of opportunity costs. And you can pay high opportunity costs by um proceeding with a mundane uh typing task when you're not getting any feedback of things that are beneficial for you, or you can pay opportunity costs in terms of uh caloric or muscle, muscle, or strength, or whatever output in terms of a task where you're also not getting feedback of any kinds of benefits. Um and so their proposal was that sense of effort is actually a representation of opportunity costs, but opportunity costs can vary quite a bit across domains. Now, whether that commonality across moral disgust and pathogen disgust is a representation of contagion, but in pathogen contagion versus reputational or reliance or social contagion, which I have not thought about in those terms before, versus something else that I've thought about, which is some representation of valuation, which is you can have low valuation in terms of caloric or contact benefits relative to pathogen costs, or you could have low valuation in terms of association based on that person's behavior rather than how other people are going to treat you for being around that person. Although those aren't mutually exclusive either. A person's valuation could partially be what your relationship with them would be reputationally in the eyes of others. So all of this is to say I find the account uh promising and convincing um but whittling down on why there's that commonality in phenomenology and outputs, uh I I'm not completely sure yet. Yeah, cool. Well, this was great. Um Josh, you're um you're you're well into the evening hours here and we might have just lost Josh. Uh can you hear us? All right. I'm back. I think I think my I think my connection cut me off like mid-sentence after no you are great though. We I think we got that all that um you are just saying how ego depletion is is all right. Thumbs up. Yeah that's no yeah I think you you left off where yeah uh where you think it's interesting but then uh getting more specific about why the the phenomenology um uh overlaps in in those two cases it would would be uh promising. Yeah, the idea that there might be a common higher level commonality in terms of sort of what it affords to the organism is sort of this possible idea. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Very cool. Well, Josh, uh we've taken up a lot of your time. I know it's late there. I don't even think we have time for the what we should have asked you question, but I think you uh you've already done that unless there's another uh think we've covered all the bases.", "warnings": [] }