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David, um what is uh a podcast that isn't this one that you like?

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Uh I like uh Hidden Minds, that NPR podcast.

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Okay, good.

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Well maybe we should go on them.

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Uh if you're listening to anybody, that'd be great.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um we can give them a bump.

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Um anyway.

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Uh that's funny.

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On that note, um, what are we listening to in this podcast?

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Well, we're not listening to it, but you, the listener, are, and you are listening to uh

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actual evolutionary psychology by actual evolutionary psychologists.

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And the name of the podcast is Evolutionary Psychology the Podcast.

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It was the Royal We, by the way.

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But the bro Yeah, okay.

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I often mix up the Royal We with the code.

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No, it's like it's it doesn't translate over the um acoustic modality.

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Well, actually it doesn't.

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Yeah.

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You there's really no is there a text way to sort of I guess scare quotes.

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This is why we're not as popular as the in brain podcasts.

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We have nonsense introductions like this.

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Well, hopefully we haven't scared you away with our scare quotes or lack thereof.

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Uh keep listening.

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But we do have parentheses.

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Yes.

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They're like, you know, we're like, parentheses are I like I prefer the parentheses.

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Gateway directly scare quotes.

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They really are.

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It's like the the marijuana to the cocaine of steroids.

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I love parentheses.

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I I t I have a habit of overusing parentheticals in my writing.

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I just I can't.

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I do too.

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Yeah.

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It started for me as a young age.

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I just thought parenthetical aside.

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It's the comedian in you.

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It's the bad writer in me on the comedian in you.

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It's true.

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Parentheticals are great for highlighting contradictions and double standards.

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I I made great use of them in in my uh alliance theory paper.

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They're they're they came in very handy.

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Fantastic.

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Yeah.

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Um so if you love parentheses, stay tuned.

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Yep.

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Or hate them.

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Her name is Brooke Shelza, she's a professor at UCLA.

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She uh studies a group of pastoralists in Namibia known as the Himba.

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Uh, and uh she just absolutely does fascinating work um studying a um an

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interesting culture that that will be uh different uh from our vantage point.

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And I think uh her research really complicates and adds nuance to the evolutionary

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psychology of mating and jealousy uh and parental investment.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And I love that we also get in a discussion from there about sort of like what are the

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what's the landscape of the evolutionary social sciences and how are we doing and our

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psychologists and anthropologists talking to each other enough.

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And um we even talk about um uh you know what what else do we

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talk about, David?

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Well, we talked about the manosphere briefly, right and how evolutionary social science can

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sometimes be perverted.

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We talked about uh the perverse incentive structures of academia, the replication crisis.

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Yes, that's right.

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The replication, yeah, we really that was uh I I feel like that was a real um uh moment

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there.

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I think that's a highlight of this episode.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Um it was just really fun, wide-ranging conversation.

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Um I think you'll have a great time listening to it.

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Enjoy.

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Okay, we're recording.

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Today we have Brooke Shelze, who is a biological anthropologist in the Department of

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Anthropology at UCLA.

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It's a fantastic department with lots of uh very wonderful evolutionary

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social scientists.

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Um Brooke, thanks for being here today.

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Thanks for having me on.

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You study a really interesting population that has very interesting

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attributes.

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And I was reading up on them, and we'll talk about it in a second, but I also immediately

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upon reading upon about it, I also imagine that like one worries about essentializing a

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whole category of people or a whole group of people.

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And so I'll just say now that the group of people that you study has noted for the degree

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to which there's promiscuity or uh paternity uncertainty.

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And we'll get into that jargon later.

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But I also imagine that like if I were you, and maybe you can tell me if you're I'm wrong,

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like I'd be a little bit tired about just having the whole community and the whole

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world there that you know so well being distilled down to that weird point.

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Um so can you just sort of start off by by saying like what it is that you study.

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Um, and we can sort of go, you know, over the different topics.

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And we just had Karen Kramer on talking about cooperative breeding.

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And I think people are really interested in issues, especially in modern circumstances,

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um, especially with changes in the mating market of like, you know, cuckoldry and

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especially like the incel movement and those kinds of things, right?

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The manosphere, where there's sort of men who feel uh downtrodden or

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left out.

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Um, and uh yeah, and I know I will shut up in a second and ask a question.

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But basically, you know, I think as I understand, a lot of your work sort of is relevant to

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all of that in this context of a society that has sort of a unique

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uh area on the distribution of mating situations.

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So can you tell us a little bit about who you study and what's unique about them, but then

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also in the context of have we sort of essentialized them too much or what can they tell

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us?

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Yeah.

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Sure.

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So I actually went there to study cooperative breeding.

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My dissertation, uh, which was in Australia, was looking at the roles of grandmothers

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and things like that.

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And so I originally went there wanting to interview women about the sort of

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transition to motherhood.

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And um so that was I I didn't actually go in to study anything about mating at all

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really.

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Um and it wasn't until I started talking to people that these topics came up.

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Um and they started talking to me about this in the context of collecting their

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reproductive histories.

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And then I realized, like, oh, they keep bringing this up.

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Maybe this is something I should ask about.

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So I kind of followed the question found me, I guess.

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Um, but yes, I would say that at this point, the the majority of the work

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that I have done with them has looked at um the the kind of pattern of what I

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call concurrency, right?

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Which is the idea that you have both a formal marital partner and then informal partners as

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well.

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And both men and women have multiple partners, and it's quite common.

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As far as sort of essentializing them, I mean I think one of the things that I was

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hoping would come out of this work was the idea that there's a spectrum, right?

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And they may fall on one end of the spectrum in terms of how prominent these extramarital

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relationships are.

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But the idea was to expose the spectrum because I think so much of what we do is

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on the very other end of the spectrum where extrapare paternity is at, you know, something

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like 1%.

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And that's where all of our work and all of our theorizing and our ideas about like you

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know what's universal and what's not all kind of come from this very thin slice.

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And so it took my sort of working with a population who was maybe at the other end of the

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spectrum to actually highlight the fact that there was a spectrum.

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So I think in that sense, I'm trying not to essentialize them.

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And then, you know, obviously all populations are in flux.

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And so I can see changes in their norms and behaviors about this stuff just in the 15 years

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that I've been working there, right?

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As they become more market integrated and things like that.

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So I can talk more specifically about that.

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But yeah, I'd love I'd love to hear about how their their norms and behaviors have changed

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uh over the past fifteen years and what you think might be behind those changes.

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Yeah, so uh there's when I first started working there, it was

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2010.

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There was pretty much no use of contraception.

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They were um the vast majority of their diet was still quite subsistence based.

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Um, so they are pastureless, so it's a lot of um sour milk and meat.

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Um, and they were they have gardens where they're growing maize and things like that.

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But they had a very long term drought that started a few years after I started

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working there.

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It lasted almost 10 years.

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And that brought more of an influx of things like store bought maize into the communities

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and things like that.

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And then other things also were just changing with the times, right?

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So, like, oh even though there's no electricity out there, they all have little mini solar

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panels to charge their cell phones, right?

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So basically, everyone has a cell phone, um, uh, but no one has indoor plumbing

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or running water or anything like that.

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So as they get more market integrated, you can and they're gonna, their ideas

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about inheritance and things like that are gonna shift.

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So to put my anthropologist hat on for a minute, they have something called double descent,

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is the inheritance practice that they have.

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So that means that everybody has membership with both their maternal clan and their

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paternal clan, and those are both important in different ways.

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But the wealth comes down matrilaterally.

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So instead of going father to son, the majority of the cows go mother's brother to

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sister's son.

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So they pass through the mother's side of the family.

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And typically, when you have that happen, it opens up more

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possibilities to be able to have higher paternity uncertainty because if you don't have to

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worry about whether your son is your son, right?

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But you're giving it to your sister's son, there's it it's a little bit more of a

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safe bet, basically, um, that you're giving your wealth to somebody that you are

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indeed biologically related to.

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So you tend to see more paternity uncertainty in cultures that have

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matrilineal or matrilateral inheritance.

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That's that's really interesting just because it suggests it's it's obvious, but I want to

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say it out loud that it's not just that the psychology is sort of obviously it's

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concerned about paternity uncertainty.

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But I think there's this idea that sort of like it either exists or it doesn't.

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And if it doesn't exist, it's horrible.

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And there's just sort of like a mushroom cloud coming out of somebody's head, as opposed to

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sort of there's just facultative responses to that, right?

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Where it's not only whether or not there's paternity uncertainty, there's also the issue of

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like, well, what's the transmission of wealth or status?

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And we've talked about how um reproduction is not just about sex, it's about

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inheritance and it's about investing.

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And I think the psychology of that and is really important.

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And it sounds like what you're saying is intrinsic to sort of how people get by

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with or tolerate or or or embrace um different kinds of

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reproductive strategies is not just about the sex, but it's intimately tied to resource

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flows, especially intergenerational resource flows.

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Yep.

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And so what you're seeing now is that with more market integration, if cat the more

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cash becomes the currency instead of cows, right?

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So when cows were the currency, everybody knew the rules, right?

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You had to give these cows from uncle to nephew, or and as you get cash

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though, the rules become more flexible, right?

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Like, well, if I sell these cows and I have the cash in hand, can I give that cash now to

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my own kids?

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And so we've asked people about sort of in an ideal world, especially young people, what

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would you prefer?

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Would you prefer to have this uncle to nephew system or the father to son system?

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And a lot of the younger people were saying, no, I'd prefer to go father to son.

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And the way one way to get around that is sell your cows and give the cash to your kids,

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right?

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So the more they switch to the cash economy, the more ability there is to kind of break

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with some of those norms.

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But then along with that, what you also see is that people are going to start caring more

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about paternity certainty because if they're giving their wealth now father to son, then

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they may care more that those sons are biologically their sons.

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So my which then is going to start to constrain women's autonomy and other things.

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So normally I think we think about things like globalization as being good for women's

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autonomy.

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This may be a situation where over the next 10 or 20 years you start to see a lot more

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restrictions on women's autonomy as they become sort of more market

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integrated.

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So it's these things, like you said, are are really sort of situational and context

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dependent.

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a really beautiful example of how uh the relationship between resource flows and mating

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systems is is is a bi-directional causal relationship.

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That on the one hand, that if we if the resource flows through uh mothers, such that uncles

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are investing in their nephews rather than their own direct children, uh then that allows

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uh women to engage in more uh you know extramarital uh relationships because you know

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husbands don't have or their husbands don't have to worry about whether their kids are

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their own because they're not investing in those kids so much as their uh sisters' kids.

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But on the other hand, um uh the resource flow also uh sorry uh affects the mating

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system.

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Or did I get that backwards?

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The mating system affects the resource flow.

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Um and uh so if if we're in a position where I want to be uh investing in my direct kids

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such that we're, you know, I have cash in my pocket and I w I want to make sure it goes to

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uh uh my children as opposed to my nephews.

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Uh then all of a sudden I need to create paternity certainty and that and that affects the

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mating system.

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Um and so uh I think it's a really interesting example of just how complex and mind-bending

240
00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:26,350
these things can become um but uh I I I'm curious.

241
00:14:26,430 --> 00:14:30,830
So like I just I want to get into the like the details of of how this works.

242
00:14:31,230 --> 00:14:36,830
So um right now uh the the men are primarily

243
00:14:36,830 --> 00:14:40,510
investing in their sisters' kids, is that right?

244
00:14:41,470 --> 00:14:42,110
Not exactly.

245
00:14:42,190 --> 00:14:43,310
So this is not exactly okay.

246
00:14:43,550 --> 00:14:46,350
This is the part that I think i complicates it even more.

247
00:14:46,670 --> 00:14:52,670
Is that one of the really interesting things that we found that to me was uh

248
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:59,100
almost more mind-blowing than the high rate of extra pair paternity itself is how much

249
00:14:59,340 --> 00:15:05,340
the men really are still investing in their their kids, whether or not they are

250
00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:06,540
biologically their kids.

251
00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:06,940
Right.

252
00:15:07,020 --> 00:15:11,980
So you would ex-I think our expectation is that in a system like this where there's high

253
00:15:11,980 --> 00:15:15,980
extra pair paternity, that the men wouldn't be investing very much, right?

254
00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:21,750
Yet what we see is side by side a high rate of extra pair paternity,

255
00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:25,910
and pretty high norms of paternal investment.

256
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:30,390
So if you so we've asked men, you know, we we we did these vignettes with them where we

257
00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:36,390
asked, we gave them situations where the men um in this in the

258
00:15:36,390 --> 00:15:42,160
story bias their investment toward their biological child um against the child, their sort

259
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,400
of social child who wasn't biologically theirs.

260
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,840
And the norms are really, really strong that you that that's a bad thing to do, that you

261
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,680
should be treating those kids equally.

262
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:57,680
And then we were we mapped the answers to those vignettes onto actual investment

263
00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:58,320
patterns.

264
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:04,400
So we developed vignettes that mapped onto forms of of uh investment that we

265
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,870
had actual behavioral data on.

266
00:16:07,270 --> 00:16:10,870
And it the norms are stronger than the behavior, right?

267
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:12,550
Which is often the case.

268
00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:17,190
But even the behavior was still quite strong, particularly with things like bride price,

269
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:17,590
right?

270
00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:23,030
So something where it's like a very public form of paternal investment, the men really

271
00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:26,550
didn't want to shirk their duties towards their kids.

272
00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:32,780
So they have really strong norms that you should treat your kids equally, and it's not

273
00:16:32,780 --> 00:16:34,140
because they're being tricked, right?

274
00:16:34,220 --> 00:16:37,500
So you might think, oh, well, maybe that's just because they don't know which kids are

275
00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:41,820
theirs and which kids are not theirs, and so they have to sort of take the risk.

276
00:16:41,980 --> 00:16:42,780
That's not the case.

277
00:16:42,860 --> 00:16:47,660
They're actually very good, and we know this from the genetics now at knowing which kids

278
00:16:47,660 --> 00:16:50,780
are there, are theirs and not theirs biologically.

279
00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:56,460
And um I can there's sort of a fun story of how we figured that out, but um

280
00:16:57,150 --> 00:17:01,710
but they they have these really strong norms about social fatherhood.

281
00:17:01,790 --> 00:17:07,550
And that's and there's a lot of reputation um sort of tied up in being a good father and

282
00:17:07,550 --> 00:17:09,150
treating those kids equally.

283
00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:10,190
Interesting.

284
00:17:10,350 --> 00:17:16,270
So uh uh there is a social norm that th uh the men should treat their wives'

285
00:17:16,430 --> 00:17:21,710
children equally, regardless of whether those children are their biological children or

286
00:17:21,710 --> 00:17:24,830
not, or whether someone someone else has fathered them.

287
00:17:25,070 --> 00:17:27,480
Um it's extremely interesting.

288
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,760
Um so I'm I I want to get into the to the fun story of how you found out that uh men

289
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,800
actually know which kids are their own, because it seems like a pr a pretty tough thing to

290
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,160
figure out if you know you don't know, you know, the timing of of intercourse and and how

291
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:44,200
it related to offspring.

292
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,960
And sometimes kids resemble their their parents, but you know, sometimes it can be kind of

293
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:48,440
ambiguous.

294
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,560
So how how how are they figuring this out and and and what's the fun story behind how you

295
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,320
figure it out what they're figuring out?

296
00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:59,670
So there's a couple different mechanisms that they're using.

297
00:17:59,830 --> 00:18:05,270
One is physical resemblance, and and they talk about the idea that once the kid gets to

298
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:10,150
sort of walking around age, that's when they really can start to get a good look at them

299
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:12,550
and s and start to use resemblance.

300
00:18:12,790 --> 00:18:18,230
But they also are using both gossip and direct communication with their spouses.

301
00:18:18,550 --> 00:18:24,070
So often people know that their partners have other partners, and

302
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:28,500
they uh you know, will sometimes talk directly to their wives, and their wives will just

303
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:30,260
say, like, yeah, this one's from the boyfriend.

304
00:18:30,420 --> 00:18:31,540
Not all couples will do that.

305
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:36,420
That sort of varies depending on the sort of communication in a particular couple.

306
00:18:36,660 --> 00:18:40,260
They also have long periods of spousal separation.

307
00:18:40,340 --> 00:18:44,580
So the men go off to a cattle post and they'll be gone for several months, right?

308
00:18:44,660 --> 00:18:49,750
So in terms of coital frequency and things like that, when they come back, they'll know

309
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:52,550
they were gone for four months and they come back and their wife is pregnant.

310
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:54,550
That's you know a pretty good sign.

311
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:58,070
So they've got sort of a suite of different ways of doing this.

312
00:18:58,310 --> 00:19:02,150
But even so, right, it's we didn't know how accurate they they would be.

313
00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:08,230
So one of the things that when we did this paternity study, we developed the methods

314
00:19:08,230 --> 00:19:09,190
with the community, right?

315
00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:12,310
Because this, as you can imagine, is a difficult thing to do.

316
00:19:12,550 --> 00:19:17,830
And so we developed this whole double blind method where we, the anthropologists, wouldn't

317
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:20,980
know more than they would about the results.

318
00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:24,340
So we have a whole complicated system to do that.

319
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:29,060
Um, but we went back before we published to present the results.

320
00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:35,220
And so we we presented to them uh, you know, uh if if a man

321
00:19:35,220 --> 00:19:41,220
has 10 kids, uh around five of them, it turns out, are gonna be he were uh kids where he's

322
00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:42,980
not the the biological father.

323
00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:45,700
And they were like, Yeah, yeah, we've been telling you this for ten years.

324
00:19:45,860 --> 00:19:50,610
Like this is that so he has so so so any of the kids uh that his wife has, he has about a

325
00:19:50,610 --> 00:19:53,010
50% chance of them being his kids.

326
00:19:53,810 --> 00:19:54,290
Interesting.

327
00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:58,050
What's interesting about that is that it's it's mathematic if you're thinking in Darwinian

328
00:19:58,050 --> 00:20:02,450
terms, you know, it's mathematically equivalent to invest in those kids versus investing uh

329
00:20:02,450 --> 00:20:08,220
in his sister's kids because there his kids are 25% uh genetic overlap with

330
00:20:08,220 --> 00:20:12,540
him and with uh the wife, if half of the kids are his and half aren't, you know, fifty

331
00:20:12,540 --> 00:20:13,820
divided by two is twenty five.

332
00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:19,660
So the in terms of the math in Darwinian terms, investing in either uh w woman's kids is

333
00:20:19,660 --> 00:20:20,540
about the same.

334
00:20:20,780 --> 00:20:21,500
Which is really interesting.

335
00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:26,140
Yes, except that if you go up generation, right, assuming that this is happening across

336
00:20:26,140 --> 00:20:31,580
generations, then your sister, there's a likelihood that your sister is not actually your

337
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:33,090
full sister.

338
00:20:33,730 --> 00:20:34,450
Ah, okay.

339
00:20:34,610 --> 00:20:35,090
Interesting.

340
00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:37,730
So it does get a little bit more complicated than that.

341
00:20:38,050 --> 00:20:41,890
But if but assuming it's your full sister, then assuming it's your full sister, then yes.

342
00:20:42,850 --> 00:20:43,810
And it's 48%.

343
00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:45,490
So it's a little bit less, right?

344
00:20:45,650 --> 00:20:51,490
But um so but um so then we said to them, so the other thing we found

345
00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:55,730
was that both men and women, so we had their assertions.

346
00:20:55,810 --> 00:21:00,180
So the when I first started doing this, I was just asking people, do you think these kids

347
00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:01,220
are yours or not yours?

348
00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:01,460
Right.

349
00:21:01,540 --> 00:21:05,780
So the women had started telling me on their own when I was doing their reproductive

350
00:21:05,780 --> 00:21:06,260
histories.

351
00:21:06,420 --> 00:21:11,380
And then I started when I interviewed the men the following summer, I I a you know, they

352
00:21:11,380 --> 00:21:13,940
would list their wives and their kids, and they have polygyny, right?

353
00:21:14,020 --> 00:21:16,420
So there'd be a often a long list of kids.

354
00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:20,820
And I they would just go through and say, you know, mine, not mine, mine, mine, not mine,

355
00:21:21,150 --> 00:21:21,390
mine.

356
00:21:21,790 --> 00:21:26,830
So we had all those assertions that what we could then map onto the genetic paternity

357
00:21:26,830 --> 00:21:27,470
results.

358
00:21:27,630 --> 00:21:33,630
Um, and neither the community nor us know the

359
00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:35,310
specific individual results.

360
00:21:35,390 --> 00:21:39,790
So a statistician who's never been to the field and doesn't know them got that information.

361
00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:41,310
But we knew the aggregate.

362
00:21:41,390 --> 00:21:46,590
So we knew that both men and women were right about 70 to 75% of the time.

363
00:21:46,750 --> 00:21:51,380
So when I presented that back to them, I said, you know, here's the extra pair paternity

364
00:21:51,380 --> 00:21:52,340
result for the community.

365
00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:58,020
And then about seven out of ten times your uh you know, people are are

366
00:21:58,020 --> 00:22:00,980
correct in knowing whether the child is theirs or not theirs.

367
00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:04,260
And their response to that was, Oh no, we're better than that.

368
00:22:04,580 --> 00:22:09,380
And and I said, Oh, you know what makes you think so, right?

369
00:22:09,860 --> 00:22:15,590
And and they said, well, because when we're talking to you, the men

370
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:21,270
are going, both men and women for different reasons, I think, are gonna tell you that a

371
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:27,110
child is is the husband's, even if they're pretty sure that it's

372
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:27,430
not.

373
00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:33,670
Because we want you to understand those those men think of those kids as theirs,

374
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:34,150
right?

375
00:22:34,390 --> 00:22:38,680
So basically they're telling me that there's gonna be a reporting bias, right?

376
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:45,080
Um, and especially because some of those um assertions we got pretty far back, you

377
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,840
know, it was maybe like five years previous by the time we were telling them about the

378
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,840
paternity results, because we did that earlier on.

379
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,000
So I didn't know people as well, things like that.

380
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,920
So I wanted to take that seriously, right?

381
00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,200
If somebody tells you that people are giving you, you know, skewed data, you wanna actually

382
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,080
look at that, right?

383
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:06,950
So we went back and we looked at the cases where they were wrong, and I'm using

384
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:08,230
air quotes here.

385
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:13,990
Um, and what we found was that 90% of the time that they were wrong, they were wrong in

386
00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:14,950
that direction, right?

387
00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:18,390
Where they were saying the kid was theirs, but it wasn't theirs.

388
00:23:18,790 --> 00:23:24,310
So, given that, we figured that actually that 70-75%

389
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:30,500
accuracy is probably a floor level of accuracy, and they really do know quite well.

390
00:23:30,580 --> 00:23:33,780
Um so I think they're combining all these different methods.

391
00:23:33,940 --> 00:23:39,300
A lot of times these are paternity results not on kids but who you know the on adults,

392
00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:39,620
right?

393
00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:42,260
Because we're taking these data across generations.

394
00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:47,620
So they've had a lot of time to sort of figure this out and they seem to be pretty good at

395
00:23:47,620 --> 00:23:47,780
it.

396
00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:49,860
So they're not being tricked.

397
00:23:50,090 --> 00:23:54,010
I mean, there may be individual cases where they would be surprised by the result, but for

398
00:23:54,010 --> 00:23:56,890
the on the whole, they're not being tricked.

399
00:23:57,130 --> 00:23:57,370
Yeah.

400
00:23:57,930 --> 00:23:59,130
It's it's really interesting.

401
00:23:59,210 --> 00:24:05,130
I mean, from a uh very simple evolutionary perspective, the idea that people are good at

402
00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:11,450
detecting uh paternity would would concomitantly then suggest

403
00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:14,730
that that would go along with sort of design for investment, right?

404
00:24:14,890 --> 00:24:19,580
If you didn't invest, if you were uh, you know, I don't know, a shark or something and you

405
00:24:19,580 --> 00:24:23,740
just, you know, made it and then you like swam away, there's no you don't worry about

406
00:24:23,740 --> 00:24:25,260
paternity because you're not investing.

407
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:30,940
So I think the idea of like parental and especially um uh male parental

408
00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:34,860
investment, uh the idea of that would sort of be consistent with this idea that we're

409
00:24:34,940 --> 00:24:40,620
you're in your data, you're getting evidence of people being quite good at um detecting

410
00:24:40,750 --> 00:24:42,030
paternity uncertainty.

411
00:24:42,190 --> 00:24:46,110
Or that's not the right term, but like yeah, but assessing paternity uncertainty.

412
00:24:46,510 --> 00:24:52,510
Except I think given that they are so good, it's surprising that they have these norms to

413
00:24:52,510 --> 00:24:53,550
treat them equally, right?

414
00:24:53,790 --> 00:24:59,470
So they have these norms set up that are saying, Yeah, we know you can people are

415
00:24:59,550 --> 00:25:00,590
figuring this out.

416
00:25:00,990 --> 00:25:05,640
Despite that, we have set up this strong norm structure that you should treat those kids

417
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:06,120
equally.

418
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,840
And then what yeah, and what do you think is so?

419
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,320
I mean, that's the um, and it sounds like because of market integration, it's kind of

420
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,840
eroding a little bit because of the fungibility of money.

421
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:22,920
But what to what do you attribute the um how do you get a stable dynamic where that norm

422
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:23,560
is there?

423
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,360
What do you have you I'm sure you've thought about a lot about that?

424
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:26,680
Yeah.

425
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,630
Well, I think in so I think part of the reason they got to that place was because of this

426
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:33,750
spousal separation, right?

427
00:25:33,910 --> 00:25:35,830
So you have other pastoralists, right?

428
00:25:35,910 --> 00:25:39,430
Like this isn't just like a thing about pastoralists or something for something, for

429
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:40,150
example, right?

430
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:44,710
But they lots of paras pastoralists have long periods of spousal separation, right?

431
00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:50,150
Sort of somewhat built into sort of to herding, especially in drought prone environments,

432
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:50,550
right?

433
00:25:50,710 --> 00:25:56,150
And yet other pastoralists have very, very strict norms about paternity.

434
00:25:56,390 --> 00:26:00,260
Um And I but you sort of have two choices, right?

435
00:26:00,420 --> 00:26:06,100
One is that you can say we're going to relax these norms and and sort of

436
00:26:06,420 --> 00:26:08,260
not do a lot of mate guarding.

437
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:10,900
The other is to sort of double down on mate guarding.

438
00:26:11,060 --> 00:26:16,180
And the and I so I think it's sort of a there's sort of a package of things that were going

439
00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:16,340
on.

440
00:26:16,420 --> 00:26:21,730
You've got the historical cultural inertia of matriliny, you've got the spousal separation

441
00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:24,050
making the cost of make guarding higher.

442
00:26:24,290 --> 00:26:27,090
You've got high value to those kids.

443
00:26:27,330 --> 00:26:29,970
So the kids are working really hard, right?

444
00:26:30,050 --> 00:26:32,770
So I just listened to your episode with Karen Kramer, right?

445
00:26:32,850 --> 00:26:34,850
And she was talking about how much work kids do, right?

446
00:26:34,930 --> 00:26:38,770
So similar in pastoral societies, the kids are working hard from a young age.

447
00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:42,130
They're they're value added to the household, right?

448
00:26:42,530 --> 00:26:47,720
And so in that sense, that sort of lowers the cost of those kids, right?

449
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,440
And so you've got sort of this whole kind of suite of different things that sort of create

450
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,040
a perfect storm that allows these norms to come into place.

451
00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:02,360
And then for each individual man, he's not just losing paternity on

452
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:03,720
some of the kids of his wives.

453
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,750
He's gaining, because they have, it's not just the wives, boyfriends, right?

454
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:09,510
They also have all these girlfriends.

455
00:27:09,670 --> 00:27:13,270
So they are gaining paternity outside of marriage.

456
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:19,030
And so I think there's sort of a balancing out that happens where and we've

457
00:27:19,270 --> 00:27:23,670
again, we haven't looked at this with the genetics, but when I've looked at sort of across

458
00:27:23,670 --> 00:27:29,180
age cohorts, what you see is that men can't don't get married until their late

459
00:27:29,180 --> 00:27:29,740
20s.

460
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:35,660
They don't really um start sort of building marital families until sort of later.

461
00:27:36,060 --> 00:27:41,500
And so they're getting a lot of extra, they're they're gaining a lot of paternity early on,

462
00:27:41,660 --> 00:27:41,820
right?

463
00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:46,140
In their teens, their twenties, before they can marry, before they've acquired a bunch of

464
00:27:46,140 --> 00:27:46,700
resources.

465
00:27:46,860 --> 00:27:49,550
They're sort of sneaking paternity.

466
00:27:49,790 --> 00:27:54,830
And then as they get older, they are probably losing more paternity.

467
00:27:54,910 --> 00:28:00,270
But over the if you look at the oldest cohort, it sort of is balanced out how much they

468
00:28:00,270 --> 00:28:05,310
think they've lost versus how much they've gained from their their own extramarital

469
00:28:06,030 --> 00:28:07,230
relationships.

470
00:28:07,470 --> 00:28:12,840
So it kind of is is keeps everybody happy in a way too, right?

471
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,200
Because it's like if if the old men were bogarding all of the paternity, you got a lot of

472
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,760
unhappy men, especially when you have polygyny, right?

473
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:27,080
And this is the way to to you know ensure in a way that those young men are still getting

474
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,400
access, they're still fathering kids.

475
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:34,600
Um, but the you know, they're just not doing it through a the sort of traditional marital

476
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:35,640
pathway when they're young.

477
00:28:35,890 --> 00:28:36,050
Right.

478
00:28:36,290 --> 00:28:36,850
That's fascinating.

479
00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:42,450
Do do the uh do the men invest at all in their girlfriend's kids or how how what's the

480
00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:43,170
relationship there?

481
00:28:43,410 --> 00:28:44,610
Yeah, good question.

482
00:28:44,770 --> 00:28:45,730
Um, yes.

483
00:28:45,970 --> 00:28:50,850
And so kids often know who their biological father is, right?

484
00:28:50,930 --> 00:28:54,450
Um, and certainly the social father is primary, right?

485
00:28:54,530 --> 00:28:59,380
So the that husband-wife relationship is still quite strong, but kids will often know.

486
00:28:59,460 --> 00:29:04,260
And so, for example, if a child is sick, um, the mother or somebody from the mother's

487
00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:08,340
family might send somebody to the boyfriend's compound.

488
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:13,860
There's no obligation, but there's sort of a norm that you would do something.

489
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:18,260
So they might just come to the compound and say, This child is sick, right?

490
00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:22,430
And then it's up to them to decide whether they want to contribute, you know, contribute a

491
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:26,350
goat or something that they can sell to get money, but often they will.

492
00:29:26,670 --> 00:29:32,110
Um, so there's those kind of like specific responses to emergencies, but also

493
00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:33,950
boyfriends give stuff to girlfriends.

494
00:29:34,030 --> 00:29:37,550
So we've tracked all those um transfers.

495
00:29:37,870 --> 00:29:42,670
Cash is a really good thing to give a girlfriend because it's easy to sort of slip away

496
00:29:43,310 --> 00:29:47,950
versus a goat or something that you're bringing home, and then then there's sort of you're

497
00:29:47,980 --> 00:29:50,780
sort of breaking the code of silence in a way, right?

498
00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:52,780
Creating common knowledge of the transfer.

499
00:29:53,020 --> 00:29:53,180
Yeah.

500
00:29:53,740 --> 00:29:57,740
If you come home with this goat and you say like, so sometimes they'll have workarounds.

501
00:29:57,820 --> 00:30:00,140
So they might, you know, show me goat.

502
00:30:02,620 --> 00:30:03,420
Just wandered in here.

503
00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:04,220
I don't know where it came from.

504
00:30:05,420 --> 00:30:09,750
But they'll but the the boyfriend will drop a goat off at the girl's uncle's compound.

505
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:12,150
Then she'll go to her uncle's compound and get that goat.

506
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:14,790
And she'll come home and the husband will say, Where'd you get that goat?

507
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:16,870
And she'll say, Oh, from my uncle's compound.

508
00:30:17,030 --> 00:30:17,430
Right.

509
00:30:18,390 --> 00:30:20,710
It was coming from the boyfriend.

510
00:30:20,790 --> 00:30:25,750
So it's so it's it's so like recognizable, right?

511
00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:31,750
I I love this about anthropology or humans, is just or any species really when

512
00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:32,710
it comes to this stuff.

513
00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:36,550
If you if you look past the superficial variation, it's it's all very recognizable.

514
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:42,580
Yeah, So so would you say that the norm that exists with uh the uh the husband's wife's

515
00:30:42,580 --> 00:30:47,620
kids where he has to treat the kids equally is absent from uh the girlfriend's kids, such

516
00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:50,740
that, you know, when it went to his wife's kids, he should he should treat the kids

517
00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:55,620
equally, but if it's his girlfriend's kids, it's okay for him to preferentially uh invest

518
00:30:55,780 --> 00:31:00,500
in his biological kids and not uh the other uh woman's kids.

519
00:31:00,660 --> 00:31:02,100
Is that how it works?

520
00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:04,980
Yeah, I think I think that's right.

521
00:31:05,060 --> 00:31:11,030
I I'm trying to think if we I guess we haven't yeah, we've looked a little bit at

522
00:31:11,030 --> 00:31:11,270
that.

523
00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:13,190
No, yeah, yeah, we have looked at that.

524
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:17,830
So we have the we had another one of these sort of vignette games because we do a we we

525
00:31:17,990 --> 00:31:22,710
these work really well um because we they often have sort of like picture cards and things

526
00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:23,030
like that.

527
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:29,030
So we did another um sort of vignette experiment where we

528
00:31:29,030 --> 00:31:32,800
had cards where we looked at three different sort of things.

529
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,880
So we had wife with your child, wife, not your child, girlfriend, your

530
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:44,800
child, girlfriend, your child, ex, and then ex-wife, your child, ex-wife, not

531
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:45,440
your child, right?

532
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,960
So we varied the paternity, we varied the type of relationship, um, and then we had them

533
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:56,240
allocate like little different kinds of things across those six categories.

534
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,890
And they definitely Favored paternity, right?

535
00:32:02,050 --> 00:32:08,050
Um, in all the cases, but less so um in when it was a formal partner, right?

536
00:32:08,130 --> 00:32:12,770
So you're supposed to treat your wives' kids equally more than your girlfriend's kids.

537
00:32:13,010 --> 00:32:18,370
Um and and in part what they said was that's because the girlfriend typically, you know,

538
00:32:18,450 --> 00:32:21,330
has a husband who can who's gonna care for those kids, right?

539
00:32:21,410 --> 00:32:26,130
So his sort of formalized responsibility, especially the kids that aren't biologically

540
00:32:26,130 --> 00:32:29,960
hids, is gonna be um weaker, right?

541
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,800
And what the women say is when you're choosing a husband,

542
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,040
wealth really matters, right?

543
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,560
Because you're if you're his wife, you're oblig you're you are he's obligated to give you X

544
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,440
percentage of his cows to milk every day or whatever.

545
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,480
If you have a boyfriend, yeah, wealth is important, but generosity is really what's

546
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,870
important because it's up to him to decide whether he's going to, you know, how much he's

547
00:32:56,870 --> 00:32:58,070
going to give you.

548
00:32:58,230 --> 00:33:03,030
And so you could have a really wealthy boyfriend, but if he's stingy, you're not going to

549
00:33:03,030 --> 00:33:05,030
get much out of that relationship.

550
00:33:06,550 --> 00:33:07,990
You want a boyfriend who's generous.

551
00:33:08,150 --> 00:33:13,990
And what the men say is: yeah, being generous is important because if I'm seen as the kind

552
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:19,940
of person who is generous towards both my own kids who are not biologically mind or towards

553
00:33:19,940 --> 00:33:21,220
my girlfriend's kids.

554
00:33:21,380 --> 00:33:24,100
People see that and they respect me for that.

555
00:33:24,340 --> 00:33:30,180
And they get sort of cachet among the men in other kinds of decision-making contexts.

556
00:33:30,340 --> 00:33:36,260
And so, again, this is like another sort of reinforcing norm that sort of helps the

557
00:33:36,260 --> 00:33:37,460
system to work, right?

558
00:33:37,540 --> 00:33:43,490
They're sort of they're sort of rewarded for being a good guy towards these kids

559
00:33:43,490 --> 00:33:46,530
that everybody knows are are not their kids.

560
00:33:47,490 --> 00:33:53,410
And is that in part because number one, um, it's just sort of a uh in some sense

561
00:33:53,490 --> 00:33:57,090
it's like just resource status competition just writ large.

562
00:33:57,170 --> 00:34:02,450
So sort of, you know, like you're it's intrinsically like, you know, if if David has more

563
00:34:02,450 --> 00:34:07,170
stuff than I do, it's easy to get a norm around, like, you know, people preferring the

564
00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:10,960
person who has more stuff, because the person who has more stuff can sort of coerce or you

565
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,640
know favor curry favor, you know, like that just sort of intrinsic.

566
00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:19,840
Um, but is it also because uh those are also then

567
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:20,800
norms?

568
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,560
So if I'm that help the biological f father too, right?

569
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:30,560
So in the sense of if my son is being taken care of by other

570
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:36,240
men, um, right, I, you know, I would almost imagine, and I wonder if this ever happens

571
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:41,850
where, you know, do the do this does the biological father ever talk to the social father

572
00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:46,570
and just sort of say, hey, I noticed, you know, you didn't give my son this.

573
00:34:46,890 --> 00:34:51,050
Like maybe that's too explicit, but like is that ever happened where, you know, you're kind

574
00:34:51,050 --> 00:34:56,490
of monitoring your kid and how the social father is treating your kid?

575
00:34:56,890 --> 00:34:57,450
That's fascinating.

576
00:34:57,610 --> 00:35:02,330
Yeah, I would imagine that the biological father has an incentive to enforce this norm that

577
00:35:02,330 --> 00:35:06,780
the marital father should treat the kids equally because he has a stake in that in that

578
00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:08,460
outcome uh being maintained.

579
00:35:09,180 --> 00:35:13,500
I think I think it's more unspoken than spoken, right?

580
00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:19,580
So I don't think that you have a lot of boyfriends and husbands negotiating

581
00:35:19,580 --> 00:35:21,260
these things individually, right?

582
00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:26,060
Like that that the sort of norm seems to be out of each other's.

583
00:35:32,190 --> 00:35:37,150
that, yes, in general, there is this sort of system of indirect reciprocity going on

584
00:35:37,310 --> 00:35:38,110
underlying this.

585
00:35:38,190 --> 00:35:43,070
And I've talked to Kim Hill about this with Dace, who also have this system of partable

586
00:35:43,070 --> 00:35:48,350
paternity, which is similar where the women have multiple fathers sort of linked to these

587
00:35:48,350 --> 00:35:48,830
kids.

588
00:35:49,150 --> 00:35:53,070
And so you just sort of generally know, right?

589
00:35:53,150 --> 00:35:57,440
Like I'm taking care of some kids who may not be mine, but somebody else is taking care of

590
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,640
my kids in their family.

591
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,600
And so, yes, everybody is sort of enforcing this norm that we should treat them equally,

592
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,960
helps me either now or in the future, right?

593
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:12,720
So for the, I think what's interesting about it is that for the young men,

594
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,990
they're counting on the older men doing that for them, right?

595
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:23,990
And when you get older, you should have more incentive when you get older to then be like,

596
00:36:24,150 --> 00:36:29,590
well, I'm probably not, I guess, having any more extramarital kids, although you might have

597
00:36:29,590 --> 00:36:32,950
extramarital kids still living in other compounds, right?

598
00:36:33,590 --> 00:36:34,310
That's really interesting.

599
00:36:35,270 --> 00:36:39,190
Yeah, it's like a straightforward application of reciprocal altruism, but where the

600
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:43,750
resource being reciprocated is parental investment and there's an indirect reciprocity

601
00:36:43,750 --> 00:36:43,990
system.

602
00:36:44,070 --> 00:36:48,760
And cheating would be the equivalent of you know reneging on that deal and and you know

603
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,800
neglecting my uh non-biological kids.

604
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,000
It's a really interesting uh uh example of that.

605
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,040
That's that's that's so cool.

606
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:56,440
Yeah.

607
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,000
And it's not priv I mean you can't it can't be private.

608
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,640
I mean this maybe is one of the reasons why it's it's it's as you say like you're saying

609
00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:05,960
it's it's you know it's just out in the open, right?

610
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:06,760
It's really hard.

611
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,640
And maybe with I mean maybe this is the point with the money, right?

612
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:15,590
Is that to the extent that it's policeable or visible, um, you can see the dynamic

613
00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:16,550
sting stable.

614
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:17,670
Yeah.

615
00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:23,030
Yeah, it's really, I mean, it's I I was not a person who studied norms or anything when I

616
00:37:23,350 --> 00:37:28,870
started doing this, but it's um the it seems to be like the having those

617
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:34,070
norms built in really makes is like the glue that makes the system work.

618
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:34,660
Yeah.

619
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:37,940
It's a really lovely example of, I mean, just like to cut through.

620
00:37:38,020 --> 00:37:39,780
It's so complicated if you poke on it.

621
00:37:39,860 --> 00:37:44,500
It's like this web of like all these stable, but it's really just like there's a lot of

622
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:48,660
people who are just worried about like, am I getting screwed or not?

623
00:37:48,820 --> 00:37:53,460
And there's a stable norm to the extent that everyone's sort of like, I think I'm okay.

624
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:58,260
You know, like like my overall costs and benefits are sort of like aligned with everyone

625
00:37:58,260 --> 00:37:58,660
else's.

626
00:37:58,740 --> 00:38:01,210
And if that's true, then we can be okay.

627
00:38:01,290 --> 00:38:02,890
And there's lots of different ways to get there.

628
00:38:02,970 --> 00:38:06,970
And this is an interesting portion of the possibility space.

629
00:38:07,530 --> 00:38:07,930
Yeah.

630
00:38:08,250 --> 00:38:13,370
And I think that's where the the infusion of the cash economy is going to be so interesting

631
00:38:13,450 --> 00:38:18,330
because is that going to be kind of the thread that you start to pull where now people can

632
00:38:18,330 --> 00:38:23,680
kind of sneak money in different ways, they can invest differently.

633
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,120
That may shift their mindset right.

634
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,520
So it's like, is that gonna be the string that you start pulling on it and it unravels the

635
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,280
the whole sweater kind of thing.

636
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:31,680
Yeah.

637
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:32,160
Yeah.

638
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,040
Well one question I have is like what do kids have you what do kids think about all of

639
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:37,280
this?

640
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,040
You know, obviously as they get older the kids turn into adults and then you talk to the

641
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,880
adults, but what do the kids think about this?

642
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,960
I mean the kids seem like they're they're aware too, right?

643
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:53,010
Again, like I mean I haven't I guess I haven't asked the kids when they

644
00:38:53,010 --> 00:38:57,730
are kids whether they know that seemed like sort of like yeah, I mean that's that's

645
00:39:00,370 --> 00:39:04,690
but what the adults tell me is that the kids know and they will reflect back on their

646
00:39:04,690 --> 00:39:09,650
childhoods and they'll say like, yeah, I've always known that so and so was my father and

647
00:39:09,730 --> 00:39:13,740
you know, when I was a kid, if I would run into him, because they don't maybe see them as

648
00:39:13,740 --> 00:39:14,380
frequently, right?

649
00:39:14,460 --> 00:39:19,180
But if I'd s if I'd see him, I would he would always give me a little bit of meat or he

650
00:39:19,180 --> 00:39:20,540
would whatever.

651
00:39:20,860 --> 00:39:24,060
Buy me a coke if we were both in town or something like that.

652
00:39:24,220 --> 00:39:28,620
So they they seem to be it doesn't seem to trouble them.

653
00:39:28,780 --> 00:39:34,380
Um, you know, I think again, because there isn't a stigma about it, they aren't

654
00:39:34,620 --> 00:39:37,170
they aren't too worried about it.

655
00:39:37,330 --> 00:39:42,290
I mean, you do and what some of the kids have also interestingly said was sometimes, of

656
00:39:42,290 --> 00:39:43,650
course, people are people, right?

657
00:39:43,730 --> 00:39:46,850
Some men are gonna be more or less jealous than others.

658
00:39:47,250 --> 00:39:52,690
And so we had a vignette about the investment stuff where the vignette was about, you know,

659
00:39:52,850 --> 00:39:58,360
the father comes home from a funeral and he's bringing a bunch of meat because they

660
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:04,360
slaughter cows at funerals, and the non-biological kid runs up to him and

661
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,680
asks him for some meat, and he says no.

662
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:12,840
And then later he's sitting and his biological kid comes up to him and he offers

663
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:13,960
that kid some meat, right?

664
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,760
So that's our like direct bias.

665
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,440
Is this okay or not okay?

666
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:18,760
Right.

667
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,850
And then we add one of the questions we asked them after that was just, you know, we asked

668
00:40:22,850 --> 00:40:24,450
them, is this okay or not okay?

669
00:40:24,610 --> 00:40:27,170
Have you how often do you think this happens?

670
00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:27,730
Right.

671
00:40:28,290 --> 00:40:33,010
Um and then um you know what would happen to somebody if they did that.

672
00:40:33,170 --> 00:40:37,570
And then we asked them if they know of any, you know, tell us a story about this if you

673
00:40:37,570 --> 00:40:38,130
have one.

674
00:40:38,210 --> 00:40:41,250
Um trying to get the sort of ethnographic color.

675
00:40:41,650 --> 00:40:47,260
And a lot of the people said like yeah I either they were in that position or they know of

676
00:40:47,260 --> 00:40:48,140
that kind of thing.

677
00:40:48,380 --> 00:40:54,300
So that was the norms were very strong, the behavior was more mixed, as you would expect,

678
00:40:54,540 --> 00:40:54,860
right?

679
00:40:55,260 --> 00:41:00,940
Um, and people would say, like, yeah, that that happens, but the other thing

680
00:41:01,020 --> 00:41:06,940
people would say to your point was it's the men sometimes start off with

681
00:41:06,940 --> 00:41:11,090
a bias against their non-biological kids, right?

682
00:41:11,170 --> 00:41:15,330
Especially men who maybe are more jealous or jealous of the particular boyfriend or the

683
00:41:15,330 --> 00:41:20,050
particular wife who they maybe you know love more than their other wives or something.

684
00:41:20,370 --> 00:41:25,250
But a lot of times those kids, if they work real, if they're really hard workers in the

685
00:41:25,250 --> 00:41:28,530
compound, they become their father's favorite kid, right?

686
00:41:28,690 --> 00:41:32,450
So this again, these things are are really dynamic.

687
00:41:32,610 --> 00:41:38,100
Um, And so just because you know he might have a bias going in, but you can sort of

688
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:38,740
overcome that.

689
00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:43,540
But sort of what you would expect from an evolutionary perspective, there's more of a

690
00:41:43,540 --> 00:41:45,140
hurdle to overcome, right?

691
00:41:45,380 --> 00:41:50,260
Because you do have the the non-fraternity sort of working against you.

692
00:41:50,420 --> 00:41:56,420
So you've got as kind of good a situation as you can get with having all these norms in

693
00:41:56,420 --> 00:41:56,660
place.

694
00:41:56,900 --> 00:42:00,250
But you know, there there are still biases.

695
00:42:00,330 --> 00:42:03,210
It's not like we found no biases at all in the behavior.

696
00:42:03,450 --> 00:42:03,690
Right.

697
00:42:03,770 --> 00:42:07,210
But if the kids expect it, I mean, there's this thing called like the Cinderella effect,

698
00:42:07,290 --> 00:42:07,370
right?

699
00:42:07,450 --> 00:42:11,290
Like based on the Cinderella story, which is just like, you know, the the non-biological

700
00:42:11,290 --> 00:42:14,170
kid gets gets treated really poorly, like Cinderella, right?

701
00:42:14,250 --> 00:42:18,490
And then she gets, you know, k swept up um in and all is right with the world, right?

702
00:42:18,570 --> 00:42:20,250
And we empathize with Cinderella.

703
00:42:20,410 --> 00:42:26,090
But um, but I mean it's also the thing of if the kids sort of understand or or

704
00:42:26,090 --> 00:42:30,160
calibrated to, you know, this is my social dad.

705
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:36,400
I'm not going to get invested as much in as this, the biological kid next to

706
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:36,640
me.

707
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,800
Then if you're calibrated to that, then you're also not pissed off, right?

708
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,800
You're not like in you're not feeling entitled to that to some degree.

709
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,400
Um, so you know, that might actually kind of counterintuitively um quell that.

710
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,130
Um, and and the thing you said about the even all all sequel, though, the social

711
00:42:56,210 --> 00:42:59,010
relationship you have with the kid changes things.

712
00:42:59,170 --> 00:43:00,130
I think is really interesting.

713
00:43:00,370 --> 00:43:04,850
I think really understudied because I mean there's this whole question of like why is there

714
00:43:04,850 --> 00:43:07,170
so much paternity investment?

715
00:43:07,330 --> 00:43:11,890
Or why do parents, I mean, like the fact that dads say, like, I want to be with my kids,

716
00:43:12,130 --> 00:43:16,770
and it's really important that like, you know, I have an influence on my kids is like a

717
00:43:16,770 --> 00:43:17,650
very universal.

718
00:43:18,130 --> 00:43:21,890
Well, maybe I mean, but but like, you know, to to some extent.

719
00:43:21,970 --> 00:43:27,200
Um, And I think that's really interesting from the perspective of the kind of social

720
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:33,440
uh affordances your kids have, or your social welfare going forward.

721
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:39,280
And I think the sort of abstract social relationship that fathers have with their kids, or

722
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,960
the way that kids embody their father's aspirations for social

723
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:50,000
status and social respect and resources and coalitional support is really

724
00:43:50,170 --> 00:43:51,050
understudied.

725
00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:56,970
And I think what you're describing in terms of um wanting that uh

726
00:43:57,210 --> 00:43:59,610
is is uh is really interesting.

727
00:43:59,770 --> 00:44:00,410
Yeah.

728
00:44:00,730 --> 00:44:01,370
Yeah.

729
00:44:03,930 --> 00:44:09,450
So I want to talk about how your work fits in with the prevailing

730
00:44:09,450 --> 00:44:12,010
ideas in evolutionary psychology.

731
00:44:12,250 --> 00:44:17,820
So there's um a lot of work on sexual jealousy um and sexual

732
00:44:17,820 --> 00:44:20,780
possessiveness uh you know of women by men.

733
00:44:21,020 --> 00:44:26,700
Uh and the evolutionary logic there is pretty straightforward in that uh men face this uh

734
00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:29,660
adaptive problem of ensuring paternity certainty.

735
00:44:29,820 --> 00:44:32,460
Uh women do not have to ensure maternity certainty.

736
00:44:32,620 --> 00:44:34,700
If it comes out of your body, it's your kid.

737
00:44:34,860 --> 00:44:37,820
Um there's this saying, you know, mama's baby, papa's maybe.

738
00:44:38,570 --> 00:44:42,970
And so uh there's a lot of work in evolutionary psychology basically arguing um that

739
00:44:42,970 --> 00:44:46,570
because men face this unique problem of ensuring paternity certainty, that they have

740
00:44:46,570 --> 00:44:50,810
evolved uh mechanisms of sexual jealousy and sexual possessiveness.

741
00:44:50,890 --> 00:44:56,170
There's a lot of empirical work showing that men uh tend to show uh a greater sensitivity

742
00:44:56,170 --> 00:45:01,100
toward sexual infidelities relative to other kinds of emotional infidelities like having

743
00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:02,140
feelings for someone else.

744
00:45:02,300 --> 00:45:06,060
Um and in fact I I believe you've replicated this finding uh uh among the Himba.

745
00:45:06,540 --> 00:45:12,380
Um so I'm curious w where you think your work w fits into this picture.

746
00:45:12,540 --> 00:45:16,940
If if it does fit in, how, if if it challenges certain parts of it, which parts do you

747
00:45:16,940 --> 00:45:19,260
think it challenges and which parts do we need to rethink?

748
00:45:19,740 --> 00:45:20,060
Yeah.

749
00:45:20,380 --> 00:45:26,250
So I I had sort of the same instinct that you uh that you did that this

750
00:45:26,250 --> 00:45:30,810
would be a really interesting population to look at this right because we most of the

751
00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:36,410
studies of this had been done either in in weird societies or if it was

752
00:45:36,410 --> 00:45:41,930
non-weird societies it was still typically sort of university populations in in you know

753
00:45:42,090 --> 00:45:46,890
the global south or something and nobody had done it in a small scale society at the time

754
00:45:46,890 --> 00:45:52,780
that I did it with him but I think um and I didn't know what I

755
00:45:52,780 --> 00:45:53,340
was gonna find.

756
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,300
I I kind of I went in sort of agnostic, right?

757
00:45:56,380 --> 00:46:00,860
I'm I'm I'm trained as an evolutionary anthropologist, but not an evolutionary

758
00:46:00,860 --> 00:46:01,500
psychologist.

759
00:46:01,580 --> 00:46:03,980
So I was but I but I was open, right?

760
00:46:04,060 --> 00:46:06,060
I was I thought, let's see what we find.

761
00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:11,100
And we found, I think, two important things that spurred me to think about this more.

762
00:46:11,260 --> 00:46:15,740
The first was we did replicate the sort of standard bus effect, right?

763
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:21,710
Where men more than women were upset by sexual uh jealousy, sexual infidelity

764
00:46:21,870 --> 00:46:23,710
more than emotional infidelity.

765
00:46:24,670 --> 00:46:30,670
But the other thing that we found was that both men and women were more upset by

766
00:46:30,670 --> 00:46:33,390
sexual uh infidelity than emotional infidelity.

767
00:46:33,470 --> 00:46:34,830
So there was a sex difference.

768
00:46:34,910 --> 00:46:39,790
It was like 96, 90 something percent of men were more upset by the sex.

769
00:46:40,830 --> 00:46:44,030
But like 67% of women or something like that were more upset.

770
00:46:44,190 --> 00:46:50,000
So, right, so it was they if the majority of both were more upset by sexual uh

771
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:51,040
infidelity.

772
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:56,560
And that looks different than like the US, where you s have a sex difference, but it's more

773
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,800
like 40 10 or something, right?

774
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,600
Where like sometimes you've got like actually the majority of both men and women more upset

775
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:09,250
by emotional infidelity, but just more men than women were upset by the sexual

776
00:47:09,250 --> 00:47:10,530
infidelity, if that makes sense.

777
00:47:11,330 --> 00:47:15,170
So to me, that part was underappreciated, right?

778
00:47:15,330 --> 00:47:17,250
So, like, yes, we found the sex difference.

779
00:47:17,330 --> 00:47:20,290
I I'm not, I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, right?

780
00:47:20,370 --> 00:47:22,290
Like, I think that that's real.

781
00:47:22,690 --> 00:47:28,690
Um, but I just think that we've gotten so myopic in the jealousy literature,

782
00:47:28,850 --> 00:47:33,410
in particular, of like focusing on this sex difference and then just like finding the teeny

783
00:47:33,490 --> 00:47:39,020
tiny variation of ways that we can test this, that we lost

784
00:47:39,820 --> 00:47:43,180
the other important things that we could learn about jealousy.

785
00:47:43,820 --> 00:47:49,180
So I then went out and recruited a bunch of anthropologists who were working and had been

786
00:47:49,660 --> 00:47:53,660
importantly had been working in the places that they worked for long periods of time.

787
00:47:53,820 --> 00:47:57,740
I think it was like our average was like 11 years that people had been working at their

788
00:47:57,740 --> 00:47:58,460
field sites.

789
00:47:58,540 --> 00:48:04,350
Because I wanted people who could help um to sort of groupthink about why you

790
00:48:04,590 --> 00:48:06,830
might see variation in these kinds of things.

791
00:48:06,990 --> 00:48:12,030
So we did run that forced choice experiment about which is more upsetting to you.

792
00:48:12,190 --> 00:48:17,950
But we also looked at the severity of you know how good or bad is it that you know

793
00:48:18,030 --> 00:48:21,870
if a partner does this with the different kinds of jealousy.

794
00:48:22,030 --> 00:48:23,950
Because the other, let me take one step back.

795
00:48:24,030 --> 00:48:27,710
So when I was doing this first with Himba, the other thing that would often happen is you

796
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:31,880
know it's a forced choice right so you say you know which is more upsetting to you if your

797
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:37,720
partner has sex with someone else or if they fall in love with someone else and and

798
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:43,480
you tell them that both both things happen which part is more upsetting and a lot of

799
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:49,240
himba maybe unsurprisingly given everything I've I've told you said it's fine both

800
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:55,000
both are fine right and I really had to push them to to

801
00:48:55,690 --> 00:48:57,050
pick one, right?

802
00:48:57,450 --> 00:48:57,930
Interesting.

803
00:48:58,490 --> 00:49:02,570
And so that also, again, is a signal, like, yeah, that's very different, right?

804
00:49:02,650 --> 00:49:07,050
Whereas if you ask this to Americans, they would say both are horrible, right?

805
00:49:07,370 --> 00:49:08,010
That's fascinating.

806
00:49:08,330 --> 00:49:10,090
I had to pick which is worse, right?

807
00:49:10,170 --> 00:49:12,410
But it's a very different sort of starting point.

808
00:49:12,890 --> 00:49:13,130
Right.

809
00:49:13,290 --> 00:49:16,890
So would did you ask, sorry, just to clarify, did you ask this question in regard to

810
00:49:16,890 --> 00:49:21,450
people's um social uh spouse or in regard to their boyfriend or girlfriend?

811
00:49:21,770 --> 00:49:24,570
We asked it about their uh their husband or wife.

812
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:25,320
Got it.

813
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:25,560
Okay.

814
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,760
I it would be interesting to look to see if you would get different results if you asked it

815
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,280
about their boyfriend or girlfriend.

816
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,480
I guess I I well I'm trying to think 'cause there probably were some unmarried people in

817
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:36,200
the sample.

818
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,600
So I'd have to look back what the actual wording was.

819
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:43,000
But it was supposed to be like a long it was a long term partner, not a short term partner

820
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,200
that we were asking about.

821
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:44,600
Yeah.

822
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:45,080
Okay.

823
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,270
Um and so we went out and replicated this.

824
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:55,510
And you know, we had the Chimane and the Hadza and all the the Mosu who

825
00:49:55,510 --> 00:50:01,270
um also have this sort of walking marriage and you know less more informal partnerships.

826
00:50:01,350 --> 00:50:06,710
So we wanted to have sort of a range of societies that we chose for reasons that we thought

827
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:07,670
might matter.

828
00:50:07,990 --> 00:50:13,560
Um and um and then we so we first we ran these

829
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,800
questions about both how upset you were about different kinds of infidelity and then also

830
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:18,680
the forced choice.

831
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:24,680
And we did find pretty I think the Chamani both men and women, like a hundred

832
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,840
percent, said they were more upset by the sex.

833
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,920
So there was no no difference.

834
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:34,990
Um But um, but for the most part, across

835
00:50:34,990 --> 00:50:39,390
all these all these cultures, the the sex difference was there, right?

836
00:50:39,630 --> 00:50:43,950
So that's the thing that like I mean, like I've heard David Buss talk about this, right?

837
00:50:44,030 --> 00:50:45,150
Like he likes it, right?

838
00:50:45,310 --> 00:50:51,150
Because it it it does um reinforce the original hypothesis, which

839
00:50:51,150 --> 00:50:51,550
is fine.

840
00:50:51,710 --> 00:50:57,660
I like again, I'm not but to me, the most important thing was how much

841
00:50:57,660 --> 00:51:01,100
variation there was in the sort of severity of responses.

842
00:51:01,260 --> 00:51:06,780
And then what we tried to do was not just say there is variation, but try to

843
00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:09,180
understand what is driving that variation.

844
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:14,700
So one of the things that we found was that paternal investment was one of the things that

845
00:51:14,700 --> 00:51:15,340
was driving it.

846
00:51:15,420 --> 00:51:20,190
So we, because we had anthropologists who'd been working in these places for a long time,

847
00:51:20,430 --> 00:51:26,110
we came up with these this sort of survey to be able to ask the anthropologists,

848
00:51:26,270 --> 00:51:31,390
you know, how much we didn't have behavioral measures of paternal investment that were

849
00:51:31,390 --> 00:51:33,630
equal across all these different places, right?

850
00:51:33,710 --> 00:51:36,990
So we had to sort of deal with the fact that there were foragers and pastoralists and

851
00:51:36,990 --> 00:51:41,630
agriculturalists, and we had like, you know, market integrated people in Okinawa and in the

852
00:51:41,630 --> 00:51:42,030
US.

853
00:51:42,110 --> 00:51:46,500
And but we asked sort of about different realms of paternal investment and had this sort of

854
00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:47,940
paternal investment score.

855
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:52,100
And that really mattered for the severity of response, right?

856
00:51:52,260 --> 00:51:58,100
So the more uh paternal investment there was, the more people were

857
00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:00,420
upset about about infidelity.

858
00:52:01,220 --> 00:52:05,220
Paternal investment in the particular relationship that was being discussed.

859
00:52:05,380 --> 00:52:09,620
Because you c you could, you know, so in the HIBA, for example, uh, there are norms that

860
00:52:09,620 --> 00:52:13,700
the man should be investing in his wife's kids, but there aren't the same norms that he

861
00:52:13,700 --> 00:52:15,790
should be investing in his girlfriend's kids.

862
00:52:15,950 --> 00:52:21,150
So by your logic, you would expect different jealousy responses depending on which partner

863
00:52:21,150 --> 00:52:22,190
was being evaluated.

864
00:52:22,590 --> 00:52:23,310
Yes, that's true.

865
00:52:23,390 --> 00:52:25,550
Although we didn't actually specifically look at that.

866
00:52:25,710 --> 00:52:30,750
So this was more about like your wife's kid, like your fo your social kids, right?

867
00:52:30,990 --> 00:52:31,230
Right.

868
00:52:31,310 --> 00:52:31,470
Okay.

869
00:52:31,710 --> 00:52:37,070
Um but it but it would be that Himbo would score low l on the lower end because they're not

870
00:52:37,070 --> 00:52:41,220
giving their wealth, there's no the inherited wealth is going to the nephews, right?

871
00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:45,060
So on that form of paternal investment, they're gonna score quite low.

872
00:52:45,380 --> 00:52:50,900
Um, whereas if they had father to child inheritance of some kind, they would score higher.

873
00:52:51,060 --> 00:52:55,540
But we looked at both inheritance norms, we looked at sort of direct care, like so.

874
00:52:55,620 --> 00:52:59,060
This is where it's helpful to have anthropologists who could say, like, yeah, dads are

875
00:52:59,060 --> 00:53:04,350
doing a lot of you know, direct caretaking, kids sitting on their laps, helping with

876
00:53:04,350 --> 00:53:09,230
feeding, helping with so we had sort of different measures and then we, you know, we um

877
00:53:09,390 --> 00:53:11,310
combine them all in sort of a score.

878
00:53:11,550 --> 00:53:11,710
Yeah.

879
00:53:11,870 --> 00:53:16,190
I I like that that the focus on the sex difference at the expense of the variation.

880
00:53:16,590 --> 00:53:21,790
That's important not only because we don't want to just focus on, you know, well, there's a

881
00:53:21,790 --> 00:53:25,630
sex difference, but even from an evolutionary psychological perspective, it tells us about

882
00:53:25,630 --> 00:53:26,910
the design of jealousy, right?

883
00:53:27,180 --> 00:53:31,820
And so, like what you're saying is the fact that there's this variation suggests that in

884
00:53:31,820 --> 00:53:35,900
that it's a function of parental investment, is that it's it comes back to this sort of

885
00:53:35,900 --> 00:53:38,620
basic deeper thing of am I being screwed over?

886
00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:43,020
You know, so it's sort of like this thing of like if I'm investing, then I'm angry.

887
00:53:43,100 --> 00:53:47,900
You know, an analogous thing would be sort of like the theory that, like, if somebody takes

888
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:51,990
my land, I'm gonna be angry, but that's actually going to be calibrated by whether or not

889
00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:53,030
I've invested in that land.

890
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:57,430
Like if it's just my land, but I don't get anything out of it, I've never invested anything

891
00:53:57,430 --> 00:54:03,270
in it, versus my livelihood is tied up into it and I've invested for years or generations

892
00:54:03,270 --> 00:54:03,590
in it.

893
00:54:03,670 --> 00:54:05,910
I'm going to have a very different anger response.

894
00:54:06,150 --> 00:54:09,830
And so if you have your theory is like people get angry when somebody takes their land,

895
00:54:09,910 --> 00:54:13,510
that's not as good of a theory as like you're angry when it's about investment.

896
00:54:13,590 --> 00:54:18,640
And it sounds like what you're describing, it really makes jealousy more sophisticated in

897
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,560
this sort of investment dependent way.

898
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:25,840
Yeah, it's not an anti-evolutionary finding to show that culture match, right?

899
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:26,560
Exactly.

900
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,320
Like I think that's the that's I think the the false dichotomy, right?

901
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:31,280
Exactly.

902
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:34,320
No, no, no.

903
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,600
Like that's what I try to tell my students from day one, right?

904
00:54:38,170 --> 00:54:43,690
But like but understanding how these cultural systems work to sort of reinforce the

905
00:54:43,690 --> 00:54:44,650
evolutionary logic.

906
00:54:44,810 --> 00:54:50,730
So but I I mean that's I think you know one of the sort of frustrations

907
00:54:50,730 --> 00:54:55,690
for me with so much of the mating research that's out there is just

908
00:54:56,570 --> 00:55:01,050
we're I understand that the sex differences stuff is easier to test.

909
00:55:01,290 --> 00:55:07,180
And so and I think Dan Conroy Beam talked about this too when when you asked him on, right?

910
00:55:07,420 --> 00:55:13,100
But it's like we've we've gotten so myopic where we're just like we're just really focused

911
00:55:13,100 --> 00:55:17,980
on these sex differences, and there's it's not the end all be all of understanding our

912
00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:18,700
mating behavior.

913
00:55:18,860 --> 00:55:24,700
Like we need to, and I think we all know this, and yet we, you know, people

914
00:55:24,700 --> 00:55:30,070
keep grasping for it and then doing these sort of small derivations of studies.

915
00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:35,590
So instead of, you know, it's not just, it's not just that they're not seeing the forest

916
00:55:35,590 --> 00:55:39,910
for the trees, it's that they've like picked one tree and like we know everything there is

917
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:44,310
to know about this one tree, and we're you know ignoring everything else.

918
00:55:44,470 --> 00:55:45,590
And I think so.

919
00:55:45,750 --> 00:55:51,750
To me, that was the more important part of that jealousy paper was not that we

920
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:57,080
found support for the bus hypothesis across a bunch of small-scale populations.

921
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,080
It was that it was that we found these other important things and we should be paying

922
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:02,280
attention to those too.

923
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:02,920
Yeah.

924
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,560
I think I think we haven't really talked so much about this, but I think this is a really

925
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:08,120
important point.

926
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:13,720
Is I think from a very naive perspective, people think about evolution as the little parts

927
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:15,800
of you that are not rational.

928
00:56:16,270 --> 00:56:16,510
Right.

929
00:56:16,670 --> 00:56:20,590
And so it's this idea, like, and I think, Brooke, what you're describing, it's very

930
00:56:20,590 --> 00:56:25,630
conducive to being appealing, which is sort of like, well, people, of course, just like

931
00:56:25,950 --> 00:56:28,430
rationally follow costs and benefits.

932
00:56:28,670 --> 00:56:33,310
And it's only those little things that like don't make sense from like a cost-benefit

933
00:56:33,310 --> 00:56:36,190
perspective that our evolution or evolution can tell us about.

934
00:56:36,430 --> 00:56:40,520
And I think there's a kernel of truth to that, which is that if there is this evolved

935
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:44,920
design, and even it's running even counter to modern costs and benefits, then like, yeah,

936
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:46,520
why else would it be there?

937
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,000
But it makes this fallacy that the cost and benefits stuff, like in this case of like

938
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,080
jealousy, is a function of how much investment, that's also evolved design, too.

939
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:00,690
And so I think that this comes back to like a very fundamental misunderstanding that

940
00:57:00,690 --> 00:57:03,730
oftentimes outsiders or untrained people have.

941
00:57:03,970 --> 00:57:08,210
But then it also then means that that kind of work that's framed that way is more appealing

942
00:57:08,290 --> 00:57:14,130
because it just appeals to this like un, I mean, frankly, uneducated perspective

943
00:57:14,290 --> 00:57:16,610
that evolution isn't the little person in my head.

944
00:57:16,690 --> 00:57:19,490
It's the little, it's the things that are tugging on the little person.

945
00:57:19,570 --> 00:57:22,690
Like it's the thing that makes me want chocolate even though I don't want it, you know?

946
00:57:22,930 --> 00:57:25,890
Or it's the thing that makes me want to like have sex with the person even though I don't

947
00:57:25,890 --> 00:57:26,690
want to, you know.

948
00:57:26,850 --> 00:57:29,660
So it's like the things pulling on the homunculus, as they say.

949
00:57:29,900 --> 00:57:30,300
Yeah, yeah.

950
00:57:30,540 --> 00:57:36,300
And it sounds like this is exactly sort of um what is what you're talking about in this

951
00:57:36,300 --> 00:57:36,780
perspective.

952
00:57:36,860 --> 00:57:42,860
And I think it explains um to maybe I I don't have data for this, so it's slightly, you

953
00:57:42,860 --> 00:57:48,620
know, I'm I'm sort of editorializing a bit, but I suspect um some of the history of

954
00:57:48,620 --> 00:57:54,290
that is uh is that that was sort of what was fitting with this sort of

955
00:57:54,530 --> 00:57:59,890
view of sort of if there's a rational reason for it, if there's a cost-benefit logic to it,

956
00:58:00,050 --> 00:58:04,690
especially in that first wave of psych, you had to stick with that stuff, you know.

957
00:58:04,770 --> 00:58:08,450
And I think David's work is a great example of like the second wave where it's like, no,

958
00:58:08,530 --> 00:58:12,610
everything that's cost and benefits, we can take an evolutionary approach and not only just

959
00:58:12,610 --> 00:58:15,970
post hoc explain it, but actually derive new predictions.

960
00:58:16,290 --> 00:58:21,560
But yeah, I I'll yeah, I think I think you're you're you're treading in like very you've

961
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,440
poked on a very deep fundamental issue in the field.

962
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,120
I would um I'll just end with that.

963
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:26,520
Yeah.

964
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:31,720
But I think too it's like when you're a graduate student and you come in you're trying to

965
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:36,840
figure out your dissertation topic, the the push is find something

966
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:37,800
counterintuitive.

967
00:58:38,670 --> 00:58:38,830
Yes.

968
00:58:39,150 --> 00:58:44,430
And so there's a lot of emphasis on, you know, like Dan Fessler always says to, you know,

969
00:58:44,590 --> 00:58:45,790
like, why should I care?

970
00:58:45,950 --> 00:58:46,190
Right.

971
00:58:46,350 --> 00:58:50,990
Like, and I and I and I I think he's right to push on that.

972
00:58:51,070 --> 00:58:51,390
Right.

973
00:58:51,470 --> 00:58:55,150
But I think a lot of the that comes from, well, if I can come up with something that's

974
00:58:55,150 --> 00:58:59,870
counterintuitive, then that's a real why should I care moment, right?

975
00:59:00,350 --> 00:59:03,680
I that's fine if you come up with something like that, right?

976
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:09,200
But I think the idea, like to me, it never sat quite right because there are plenty of

977
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:09,680
things.

978
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:14,560
Just because something is in is intuitive or maps onto what we think doesn't mean that

979
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,480
there isn't a good evolutionary explanation for why we're doing that thing.

980
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:22,880
And it may have to do with the fact that the costs and benefits are, you know, aligned in

981
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:23,680
that particular way.

982
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,670
And I mean, I think this is where behavioral ecology shines is in thinking about some of

983
00:59:28,670 --> 00:59:33,790
that stuff and looking at the variation and why why we might expect there to be variation.

984
00:59:34,110 --> 00:59:36,990
Um, and it often does like it makes sense, right?

985
00:59:37,070 --> 00:59:42,910
So sometimes when you paint it out, it really is sort of intuitive in that

986
00:59:42,910 --> 00:59:48,040
it's not, you know, but I I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, right?

987
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:53,000
You can still really important insights into what into our behavior.

988
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:58,280
Um even I mean in yeah oh sorry go ahead yeah I mean because I even I would I would even

989
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,640
put it more strongly which is like I think psychologists who don't interact with human

990
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,200
behavioral ecologists really fall into that trap.

991
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:08,510
So you know if you're if you're a human behavioral ecologist and you're like well well,

992
01:00:08,590 --> 01:00:12,110
from a psychological perspective, well, what's more obvious than like feeding yourself,

993
01:00:12,190 --> 01:00:12,350
right?

994
01:00:12,510 --> 01:00:15,070
But a human behavioral ecologist is like not trivial.

995
01:00:15,230 --> 01:00:19,310
Like you got to go out, you expend calories, calculation of like what's the return on it,

996
01:00:19,390 --> 01:00:20,750
what's the processing, whatever.

997
01:00:20,830 --> 01:00:25,710
And that keeps the psychologist um honest because then you're like, oh, if I'm an

998
01:00:25,710 --> 01:00:29,630
evolutionary psychologist, I can't just trivialize that it's easy to get food.

999
01:00:29,790 --> 01:00:34,350
There's actually software for calculating like foraging time and the costs I'm incurring

1000
01:00:34,430 --> 01:00:39,400
and the handling time and the return rate and like all this decision making that like the

1001
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,400
the the human behavioral ecologist is telling me as a psychologist I have to look for in

1002
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:43,880
the mind.

1003
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,000
And so I think like I'd actually put it more strongly that I think especially the

1004
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:54,600
evolutionary social sciences have to keep that relationship to the extent that they don't,

1005
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:59,320
it really runs this risk of running this like, well, if your grandmother couldn't tell you

1006
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,920
as a as a a paper published in the psychology journal.

1007
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:07,750
I think just to there's a site, there's a there's a paper in a psychology journal that's a

1008
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:10,070
theoretical paper that I think should be retracted.

1009
01:01:10,630 --> 01:01:16,630
Uh and I think it's this paper that is by um uh by Kurt Gray and somebody

1010
01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:16,870
else.

1011
01:01:16,950 --> 01:01:21,270
And it's about uh um, I think it's Dan Gilbert, and it's about like you should do research

1012
01:01:21,270 --> 01:01:24,150
that's surprising and that your grandmother couldn't tell you about.

1013
01:01:24,310 --> 01:01:28,840
Um, and everybody has like said that's not great, but I think it actually should be

1014
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:29,400
retracted.

1015
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:30,680
It should be made an example of.

1016
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:32,360
And it's exactly for this reason.

1017
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:36,840
And I think like human behavioral ecologists and anthropology and evolution is what keeps

1018
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:40,200
us honest to asking really important questions about basic things.

1019
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:41,880
Like how do you not starve?

1020
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:42,280
Yeah.

1021
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:47,400
It's it's in fact, it's it's even worse than than uh than you know, uninsightful or

1022
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:47,880
unproductive.

1023
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:49,800
It's actually the opposite of what we should be doing.

1024
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,730
If you think about you know doing science from a Bayesian perspective, you want to pursue

1025
01:01:53,730 --> 01:01:56,770
hypotheses with a high prior probability of being correct.

1026
01:01:56,850 --> 01:02:00,850
But if you're searching for the surprising counterintuitive hypotheses, those are by

1027
01:02:00,850 --> 01:02:03,570
definition the ones with the lowest probability of being correct.

1028
01:02:03,730 --> 01:02:07,490
And so what you've produced by pro by with that perverse incentive structure is a false

1029
01:02:07,490 --> 01:02:08,450
positive machine, right?

1030
01:02:08,610 --> 01:02:12,130
You're going out and you're testing all the low probability hypotheses, and you know, by

1031
01:02:12,130 --> 01:02:14,370
chance a few of them will turn up some positive results.

1032
01:02:14,450 --> 01:02:16,930
And what you're getting is a bunch of surprising and false findings.

1033
01:02:17,010 --> 01:02:20,440
It's no, it's no surprise at all that this is leading to a replication crisis.

1034
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:22,440
But anyway, uh sorry, Bert, I interrupted you.

1035
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:23,480
Okay.

1036
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:29,480
I mean, I would I think I would add just one more layer to it, which is that it's

1037
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,280
adding in the cultural evolution layer on top, right?

1038
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:38,120
Which is so I think the behavioral ecologists, the sort of old school first generation,

1039
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:44,110
second generation, even behavioral ecologists, were uh really focused on s those

1040
01:02:44,110 --> 01:02:45,950
rules about the ecology, right?

1041
01:02:46,030 --> 01:02:48,030
The ecology and the behavioral ecology.

1042
01:02:48,190 --> 01:02:48,350
Yes.

1043
01:02:48,750 --> 01:02:53,630
And sort of all the conditional strategies based on based on those kinds of factors.

1044
01:02:53,870 --> 01:02:57,070
And often black boxing the culture, right?

1045
01:02:57,310 --> 01:03:03,150
And I think that the next step is then layering in things like norms and why, because

1046
01:03:03,310 --> 01:03:08,140
you know, sometimes those are helping us to like, like I said, they're sort of the glue

1047
01:03:08,140 --> 01:03:11,980
that's helping to enforce these things and and help these things that may be sort of

1048
01:03:11,980 --> 01:03:15,900
counterintuitive, like how do we get to cooperate in these really large groups or how do we

1049
01:03:15,900 --> 01:03:18,460
sustain a system with extra pair paternity, right?

1050
01:03:18,620 --> 01:03:24,060
And so I think that's where we need to sort of complete the circle of these three different

1051
01:03:24,060 --> 01:03:25,900
perspectives, becoming more integrative.

1052
01:03:26,060 --> 01:03:31,820
And and for me, being at UCLA was like mind blowing in that way because I was

1053
01:03:31,820 --> 01:03:37,410
really, you know, I was trained by Eric, Eric Galton Smith, who's, you know, one of the you

1054
01:03:37,410 --> 01:03:41,730
know foremost early human behavioral ecologists, right?

1055
01:03:41,970 --> 01:03:46,690
And um, and he and not not not that he hasn't also integrated this stuff, right?

1056
01:03:46,770 --> 01:03:51,490
But a lot of his early work was that sort of bread and butter behavioral ecology in a in a

1057
01:03:51,490 --> 01:03:52,770
foraging population.

1058
01:03:52,930 --> 01:03:55,090
And when I but that was what I was trained in.

1059
01:03:55,170 --> 01:04:00,660
I never had any no, no psychology training, really no cultural evolution training.

1060
01:04:00,820 --> 01:04:05,540
And then I got to UCLA and it was the time when Rob Boyd was still there.

1061
01:04:05,700 --> 01:04:11,300
And um and so I we had Dan and Clark and Rob and I was like the

1062
01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:16,020
lone behavioral ecologist, human behavioral ecologist in the department.

1063
01:04:16,180 --> 01:04:21,510
And I was like, I felt like I went back to kindergarten, really started as a faculty member

1064
01:04:21,590 --> 01:04:24,790
because I was like, oh gosh, okay, I have to learn all this stuff.

1065
01:04:24,950 --> 01:04:27,670
I have to learn all this new language, these new perspectives.

1066
01:04:27,910 --> 01:04:33,670
But you know, I in a lot of ways feel like I've had more sort of growth as a scholar in the

1067
01:04:33,670 --> 01:04:39,110
faculty part of my career because of that, because I sort of had to exercise all these new

1068
01:04:39,110 --> 01:04:42,630
muscles and think about how we could integrate these different perspectives.

1069
01:04:42,790 --> 01:04:48,340
And it's been I I see a lot of that in like now

1070
01:04:48,420 --> 01:04:54,260
I'm old, like in the generation below mine, you know, of the like I think people are

1071
01:04:54,260 --> 01:04:58,500
naturally at least the behavioral ecologists, I think that's what I know best.

1072
01:04:58,580 --> 01:05:01,940
I don't know whether this is you can tell me whether you think this is true in psychology,

1073
01:05:02,100 --> 01:05:07,380
but the the but human behavioral ecologists I think are more naturally drawing from these

1074
01:05:07,380 --> 01:05:11,380
different fields and integrating them more in their projects in really you know, really

1075
01:05:11,380 --> 01:05:12,980
cool, exciting ways.

1076
01:05:13,220 --> 01:05:19,010
Um I wish I guess my my stereotypical bias is

1077
01:05:19,010 --> 01:05:24,210
that's happening less in psychology, at least from like when you look at like the HBES

1078
01:05:24,450 --> 01:05:27,490
program, um, just in terms of the titles and stuff like that.

1079
01:05:27,650 --> 01:05:29,330
But I don't know, do you think that's happening?

1080
01:05:29,490 --> 01:05:30,530
I'm gonna ask you a question.

1081
01:05:30,690 --> 01:05:33,490
Do you think that's happening in psychology too?

1082
01:05:35,060 --> 01:05:40,820
David, you wanna I mean we can both yeah I I mean uh so could you could you get clear on on

1083
01:05:40,900 --> 01:05:45,700
on on the question what what were you do you think that the evolutionary psychologists are

1084
01:05:45,700 --> 01:05:50,900
increasingly integrating perspectives from behavioral ecology and cultural evolution or are

1085
01:05:50,900 --> 01:05:53,700
they still sort of siloed off?

1086
01:05:54,020 --> 01:05:56,450
Yeah I It depends.

1087
01:05:56,610 --> 01:06:01,730
I mean, so I think yes, uh, but it's happening more slowly than I would like.

1088
01:06:01,970 --> 01:06:07,650
I think slowly but surely we are integrating uh uh and and merging together the the various

1089
01:06:07,650 --> 01:06:08,370
good ideas.

1090
01:06:08,610 --> 01:06:10,530
But you know, progress is is slow.

1091
01:06:10,850 --> 01:06:13,170
Particularly in the social sciences, it happens very slowly.

1092
01:06:13,330 --> 01:06:14,610
So I'd like it to speed up.

1093
01:06:14,690 --> 01:06:17,250
But yeah, I do see um quite a bit of it.

1094
01:06:17,330 --> 01:06:21,570
Um maybe it's just for my background at UCLA where where that's sort of a really great

1095
01:06:21,570 --> 01:06:26,020
example of a bunch of different um perspectives feeding into each other in a in a in a

1096
01:06:26,020 --> 01:06:26,660
productive way.

1097
01:06:26,820 --> 01:06:28,500
Not every department is like that.

1098
01:06:28,660 --> 01:06:31,620
Um, so I so I don't know, but yes, I've I've seen some of it.

1099
01:06:31,700 --> 01:06:32,340
I wish there were more.

1100
01:06:32,420 --> 01:06:32,740
I don't know.

1101
01:06:32,820 --> 01:06:33,380
What do you think, Dave?

1102
01:06:33,620 --> 01:06:37,300
Yeah, I mean, and I came from, you know, I was a student of Lita Cosby's John Tubi.

1103
01:06:37,460 --> 01:06:41,140
And I, you know, I I was there, I'm a generation after Clark.

1104
01:06:41,300 --> 01:06:46,420
Um, you know, and I I was sort of on the end where I still had a lot of interaction with

1105
01:06:46,420 --> 01:06:49,380
Rob Boyd and Pete Richardson and Richardson.

1106
01:06:49,460 --> 01:06:55,430
And um uh I think in Christina Moya we had on, and I talked to Christina Moya

1107
01:06:55,430 --> 01:06:55,590
about this.

1108
01:06:55,670 --> 01:06:59,350
Christina Moya and I spent a lot of time as representatives of sort of John and Lita and

1109
01:06:59,350 --> 01:07:01,030
Rob and Pete, respectively.

1110
01:07:01,750 --> 01:07:02,710
So diplomats between the two.

1111
01:07:03,110 --> 01:07:03,270
Exactly.

1112
01:07:04,230 --> 01:07:05,350
We really spent a lot of time together.

1113
01:07:05,510 --> 01:07:08,870
Um but um and Sarah Matthew too and other people.

1114
01:07:09,030 --> 01:07:14,870
Um but I think I think what what it is is I don't think the gener the

1115
01:07:14,870 --> 01:07:20,560
generation now, I don't think there's any uh there's very little disagreement, I think,

1116
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:21,200
anymore.

1117
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:27,360
And I think it's largely a division of labor, where I think um a lot of evolutionary

1118
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:33,200
psychologists understand the importance of cultural evolution, um,

1119
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:39,120
but they would view their work as sort of prior to that in the sense of they're still just

1120
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:45,120
interested in the the evolved design, independent of which norms

1121
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:47,610
are feeding into it by and large.

1122
01:07:47,850 --> 01:07:51,930
Now there are certain evolutionary psychologists who are really interested in like why is a

1123
01:07:51,930 --> 01:07:56,970
particular place the way it is, or why are particular norms the way they are.

1124
01:07:57,130 --> 01:08:01,850
And the more you know about the psychology, um, you know, you can predict what the norms

1125
01:08:01,850 --> 01:08:04,650
are, and the more you appreciate that there's cultural evolution.

1126
01:08:04,730 --> 01:08:08,170
Like as in your work, we were just talking about the whole first part of this was there's

1127
01:08:08,170 --> 01:08:09,850
all these costs and benefits, right?

1128
01:08:10,010 --> 01:08:15,440
And so your your, if, for example, just to make it concrete, if an

1129
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:19,360
evolutionary psychologist just went to your field site and never looked at any other

1130
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:25,200
variation in humans, they might make inferences about the evolved design of human

1131
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:31,200
software that would not be as accurate if they didn't realize that some of

1132
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:35,360
this was a consequence of coordinated norms.

1133
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:36,000
Right.

1134
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:41,890
And then there's the question of sort of like uh and so it's it makes your evolutionary

1135
01:08:41,890 --> 01:08:46,210
psychology better because then you can ask the question, well, like, where do those norms

1136
01:08:46,210 --> 01:08:46,530
come from?

1137
01:08:46,610 --> 01:08:52,050
And I think Pete boy like uh Rob and Pete's insight

1138
01:08:52,370 --> 01:08:57,090
was in the same way that John and Lita, for example, and other people, I mean, there were

1139
01:08:57,090 --> 01:09:00,690
Smith and Winter Halder were talking about evolved design in '95, too.

1140
01:09:00,770 --> 01:09:04,370
Like they're even human behavioral ecologists were talking about the evolved psychology.

1141
01:09:04,450 --> 01:09:09,480
Um, but the insight of sort of I'm not satisfied with the mind just is the way that is.

1142
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:11,480
We want an evolutionary explanation.

1143
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:15,080
Rob and Pete were saying, well, we just don't want to say culture is the way it is.

1144
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:17,400
We want a causal explanation as well.

1145
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:22,360
And I think that for, you know, in the same way, like you an old school evolutionary

1146
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:25,880
psychologist may say, well, those are just norms and they are just the way they are.

1147
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,160
And that's culture, but we're interested in the evolved design.

1148
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:34,350
The new school is sort of like, no, no, no, the norms come from the evolved psychology too.

1149
01:09:34,430 --> 01:09:35,390
It loops around.

1150
01:09:35,550 --> 01:09:41,550
So I think that's my long-winded way of saying it's in practice, it might be

1151
01:09:41,550 --> 01:09:47,150
that evolutionary psychologists do de-emphasize the norm

1152
01:09:47,310 --> 01:09:53,230
dynamics, but I don't know any of them that aren't excited or interested when

1153
01:09:53,230 --> 01:09:59,000
a cultural evolutionist then picks up the evolved design they're talking about and

1154
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:03,000
and sort of talks about the dynamics those things create.

1155
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:07,400
And there are more there are some people starting to do that where they think about what

1156
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:11,640
are the dynamics the design creates as a way to think about the design itself.

1157
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:13,800
I don't know if that's helpful.

1158
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:14,520
Yeah.

1159
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:19,510
It is, but I I want to pick up on something you said in the middle there, which was that

1160
01:10:19,590 --> 01:10:24,710
you know, if if evolutionary psychology got its origins in Namibia with the himba, right?

1161
01:10:24,870 --> 01:10:28,550
They might different evolutionary psychology might look different.

1162
01:10:28,950 --> 01:10:33,750
But I mean I think the the counterpoint to that is we have to then understand that

1163
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:39,480
evolutionary psychology looks the way that it does because it was created in a weird

1164
01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:40,040
world, right?

1165
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:43,160
Like Joe had a big contribution, right?

1166
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:49,160
Is that like, and so I I think that's where the anthropology is so important because

1167
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:54,760
we need to keep pushing on this idea of like, is this evolved psychology or not?

1168
01:10:54,920 --> 01:11:00,760
Yeah, like and we can only answer that question if we keep looking at this uh you know

1169
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:06,360
across cultures and we sort of I think also build in the idea that we are

1170
01:11:06,510 --> 01:11:07,070
flexible.

1171
01:11:07,150 --> 01:11:12,270
Like part of our evolved psychology is that we're flexible and we are a social

1172
01:11:12,910 --> 01:11:17,470
species who probab we don't know what the norms were, right?

1173
01:11:17,710 --> 01:11:23,390
10,000 years ago or 20 or 100,000 years ago, but we but we probably had some, right?

1174
01:11:23,870 --> 01:11:29,400
And so um I think assuming that the that the you know

1175
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:33,880
very specific psychology that we have and we were raised with and that's helping us come up

1176
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:39,720
with those predictions, um, you know, we I just think we always need to to push on that and

1177
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:40,360
and question.

1178
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:41,640
Yeah, I agree.

1179
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:46,360
And I think there's a fractal issue too, which is sort of like from uh even even um you

1180
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:51,320
know old school quote unquote John Alita of psych was very cross-cultural.

1181
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:53,720
Like they had, you know, the Clark, the Schwartz site.

1182
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:58,190
And so compared to psychologists, you know, I was like, I was saying this, Christina.

1183
01:11:58,270 --> 01:12:03,630
Like I was I went after UCSB, I went to another university, a psych department had a no

1184
01:12:03,710 --> 01:12:07,710
anthropologist, and I was like the I did the ethnographic veto all the time.

1185
01:12:07,870 --> 01:12:09,390
I was just like, that's not true.

1186
01:12:09,470 --> 01:12:10,270
That's not universal.

1187
01:12:10,430 --> 01:12:11,630
Like there's this other culture.

1188
01:12:11,790 --> 01:12:13,230
Like I was just like, what is this?

1189
01:12:13,390 --> 01:12:14,510
These people are making claims.

1190
01:12:14,670 --> 01:12:19,620
So I think I agree that like even currently evolutionary psychology could still be more

1191
01:12:19,620 --> 01:12:20,580
cross-cultural.

1192
01:12:20,740 --> 01:12:24,420
But then I can imagine a lot of evolutionary psychologists listening being like, yeah, but

1193
01:12:24,420 --> 01:12:27,700
compared to regular psychologists, we're already super not weird.

1194
01:12:27,780 --> 01:12:30,820
And we were super not weird way before the weird paper.

1195
01:12:30,980 --> 01:12:33,860
So I think like, you know, I think everybody's doing their best.

1196
01:12:34,260 --> 01:12:40,100
Um, but I do think I really do strongly feel that um it's and I've said this before,

1197
01:12:40,260 --> 01:12:46,250
it would be terrible if uh field and behavioral ecology work doesn't stay

1198
01:12:46,250 --> 01:12:47,450
together with EV-psych.

1199
01:12:47,850 --> 01:12:51,930
And I would not want to be in an evolutionary psychology or evolutionary behavioral

1200
01:12:51,930 --> 01:12:56,570
sciences where like the psychologists don't interact with the behavioral ecologist or the

1201
01:12:56,570 --> 01:12:57,370
cultural evolutionist.

1202
01:12:57,530 --> 01:13:00,890
And I think to the degree that they're separated, it's not healthy for either side.

1203
01:13:01,210 --> 01:13:01,530
Yeah.

1204
01:13:01,690 --> 01:13:07,440
And I think it's just I mean, I I think that in people

1205
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:13,520
often think of this as like, okay, now I need to go and test

1206
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:17,680
my pet hypothesis in some other place, right?

1207
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:22,720
And if I can find it in the shore and in the US, therefore it's universal, right?

1208
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:28,720
And I mean, yes, and I can talk about the sort of logistical hurdles of doing that, right?

1209
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:32,960
Because I don't I don't think that necessarily like helicoptering in and throwing your

1210
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:38,370
study design that was designed in the West without thinking through how it may or may not

1211
01:13:38,370 --> 01:13:41,250
be working the way you think it's working is a good idea.

1212
01:13:41,490 --> 01:13:46,130
But um, but I think that the conversations, like, I mean, same at UCSB, right?

1213
01:13:46,210 --> 01:13:48,690
Where you've got John and Lita and then you've got Mike, and right.

1214
01:13:48,770 --> 01:13:54,130
So these plays it's the more important thing was like

1215
01:13:54,370 --> 01:14:00,130
keeping your mind fresh and thinking about these things by always having people say, but

1216
01:14:00,130 --> 01:14:00,690
what about this?

1217
01:14:00,770 --> 01:14:01,490
But what about this?

1218
01:14:01,890 --> 01:14:07,440
And so it's it's having developing kind of, you know,

1219
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:11,680
at UCLA we have Beck, which is our behavior, evolution, and culture series, right?

1220
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:15,760
And where we try to bring in people, but different ways to be able to bring those voices

1221
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:16,240
together.

1222
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:22,320
And that that's to me matters almost more than like

1223
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:27,520
doing a cross cultural experiment and having that be a chapter of your dissertation because

1224
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:33,310
it's about, you know, exercising those muscles and thinking about it from like always

1225
01:14:33,310 --> 01:14:34,990
having those other voices in your head.

1226
01:14:35,070 --> 01:14:38,670
I think that helps reframe the way you think about all of this.

1227
01:14:38,910 --> 01:14:44,430
Um and as opposed to just sort of trying to reinforce the beliefs that you already have by

1228
01:14:44,430 --> 01:14:48,190
saying, like, Oh, I'm gonna drop in and go do this study somewhere else or ask some

1229
01:14:48,190 --> 01:14:52,590
behavioral ecologist to run this with the Hadza or the Himba or something like that.

1230
01:14:52,910 --> 01:14:53,230
Yeah.

1231
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:54,520
I couldn't agree more.

1232
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:59,080
Yeah, it's this misguided way of thinking of of doing cross-cultural research as a cudgel,

1233
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:01,320
as a way of saying, aha, see, it's universal.

1234
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:01,960
I told you.

1235
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:03,160
I told you so.

1236
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:09,080
Um whereas what we should be doing as psychologists as is trying to explain that cultural

1237
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:14,840
variation and and show what is at the root of it and and and how the mind is strategically

1238
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:17,880
responding to context to produce that variation.

1239
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:24,010
We seem to forget as social scientists that the reason we have brains is precisely to

1240
01:15:24,010 --> 01:15:30,010
do this kind of flexible, contingent, cost-benefit uh analysis that helps us uh respond

1241
01:15:30,010 --> 01:15:33,210
to the subtleties of our particular circumstances.

1242
01:15:33,370 --> 01:15:37,850
You know, a plant doesn't need a brain because it just does photosynthesis regardless of of

1243
01:15:37,850 --> 01:15:38,570
where it is.

1244
01:15:38,730 --> 01:15:44,200
Uh what once you start having, you know, a body and and multiple things to do and multiple

1245
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:47,960
courses of action to take that are dependent on where you are and what's going on in your

1246
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:48,920
environment, you need a brain.

1247
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:49,800
That's why we have them.

1248
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:54,280
That's why we have the things that we're studying, so that so that we can precisely respond

1249
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:59,720
to these kinds of you know uh subtle distinctions in our environments and our and our

1250
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:01,480
social uh norms, et cetera.

1251
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:05,960
We should be interested in how the mind does that, not trying to look at how the mind does

1252
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:06,680
not do that.

1253
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:07,480
Right.

1254
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:08,360
Yeah.

1255
01:16:08,610 --> 01:16:12,370
No, it's a very different I mean I think it's a it's a h humble approach, right?

1256
01:16:12,450 --> 01:16:17,890
It's sort of it's like it's going in and being like, d do we have theories to explain this?

1257
01:16:18,130 --> 01:16:18,370
Right?

1258
01:16:18,610 --> 01:16:22,610
Like d do we have psychological theories to explain this or not?

1259
01:16:23,010 --> 01:16:29,010
Um and I think the the tradition in psychology that's very domain general, that's

1260
01:16:29,010 --> 01:16:34,800
sort of like reasoning and rationality, is also like a very it's also conveniently

1261
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:40,480
sort of like a very like um uh not to get too anthro but almost sort of like uh

1262
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:46,640
imperial or colonial where it's sort of like um reasoning is hard we do it in

1263
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:51,680
modern circumstances with money and math and spaceships and these people who are digging in

1264
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:52,640
the dirt don't do it.

1265
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:57,600
And so we don't even have to study them because they don't even embody what the hard things

1266
01:16:57,600 --> 01:16:59,310
the mind does is, right?

1267
01:16:59,550 --> 01:17:01,150
I hope that's not the right.

1268
01:17:01,230 --> 01:17:05,070
But I think, but it, but you can you can really see, like, you know, it's very the a very

1269
01:17:05,070 --> 01:17:09,470
domain general view of the mind, which is sort of like reasoning is the pinnacle of what we

1270
01:17:09,470 --> 01:17:15,150
study, and math and like trigonometry is explicit math and trigonometry, the kind we learn

1271
01:17:15,150 --> 01:17:15,950
in schools.

1272
01:17:16,190 --> 01:17:20,940
Like you can see how that very conveniently means you don't even have to study other

1273
01:17:21,180 --> 01:17:21,900
people, right?

1274
01:17:22,060 --> 01:17:25,020
Because it's like it's not even there's not even interesting data there.

1275
01:17:25,100 --> 01:17:26,300
It's a very different way.

1276
01:17:26,460 --> 01:17:31,020
And I actually think an evolutionary approach does this very thoroughly, is it completely

1277
01:17:31,020 --> 01:17:35,020
inverts that and says trigonometry and spaceships don't matter at all.

1278
01:17:35,180 --> 01:17:36,220
That's not hard at all.

1279
01:17:36,460 --> 01:17:40,460
What's really hard is like having a kid and having them not die.

1280
01:17:40,620 --> 01:17:45,090
And then it completely inverts like who you have to be humble f to and you have to go

1281
01:17:45,090 --> 01:17:47,490
around and be like, how do people keep their kids alive?

1282
01:17:47,730 --> 01:17:52,290
That completely changes like who you follow, what questions you ask, what data you collect.

1283
01:17:52,450 --> 01:17:57,410
And as psychologists, we should just be like, do we have theories of like, you know, your

1284
01:17:57,570 --> 01:17:59,010
brook your social network?

1285
01:17:59,170 --> 01:18:00,130
Like, no, we don't.

1286
01:18:00,290 --> 01:18:01,170
So we're still failing.

1287
01:18:01,250 --> 01:18:05,730
You know, like every time we have an anthropologist on, I'm like, we really don't have very

1288
01:18:05,730 --> 01:18:06,530
much yet.

1289
01:18:06,690 --> 01:18:06,930
Yeah.

1290
01:18:07,250 --> 01:18:13,120
I mean, I think answer I mean anthropology makes you humble in a way that maybe

1291
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:16,000
is less common in psychology, right?

1292
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:21,840
Because you're sort of forced at least to go to a place where you know nothing and all of

1293
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:27,200
your sort of intuitions about how the world works are often like it if they're not turned

1294
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:32,000
on their heads, they're at least turned 90 degrees or 30 degrees or something, right?

1295
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:38,070
And so it's um and and you sort of have to figure it all out from the from the

1296
01:18:38,070 --> 01:18:38,870
ground up, right?

1297
01:18:38,950 --> 01:18:43,990
And so there are things, you know, I mean for me the I the idea when I was talking to

1298
01:18:43,990 --> 01:18:48,790
people about their relationships, like the idea that people were adamant about the idea

1299
01:18:48,790 --> 01:18:52,390
that you could be in love with multiple people at once, right?

1300
01:18:52,470 --> 01:18:55,110
Like things like that that I was like, what?

1301
01:18:55,430 --> 01:18:57,910
Like that's not that's not real, right?

1302
01:18:58,070 --> 01:19:02,950
Like that and I and so it you

1303
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:09,840
sort of forced to have to keep your mind flexible in a way that I think helps

1304
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:11,200
the science, right?

1305
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:16,240
Whereas if you're talking to people, if you're working with undergraduates whose minds all

1306
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:18,400
work pretty much the way that your mind works, right?

1307
01:19:18,480 --> 01:19:24,160
You're you're not sort of forced in the same way to have to to flex those muscles and

1308
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:29,040
and figure out, you know, you're challenged to have to think about how these things work.

1309
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:34,270
And um that to me is it's it's that to me is the fun of it, right?

1310
01:19:34,430 --> 01:19:37,230
Is that like it's it's that's the exciting part.

1311
01:19:37,390 --> 01:19:43,230
It's challenging, but that's also you know, what what keeps me in it, I think, is

1312
01:19:43,390 --> 01:19:48,990
is that it's so fascinating to sit down and talk to some old guy for two hours and come

1313
01:19:48,990 --> 01:19:53,070
away being like, Whoa, that is not the way I thought about the world.

1314
01:19:53,150 --> 01:19:59,140
And yet like it makes sense and it like right, but it um it really, you know, forces you

1315
01:19:59,140 --> 01:20:01,140
to to keep your mind open.

1316
01:20:01,460 --> 01:20:01,940
Yeah.

1317
01:20:02,260 --> 01:20:07,380
You you have you're one of the editors of the human behavioral ecology book.

1318
01:20:07,540 --> 01:20:13,140
Um, what how do you think about where the field is going, where it's headed?

1319
01:20:13,460 --> 01:20:19,380
Is it healthy or in in are psychologists um um doing their part

1320
01:20:19,540 --> 01:20:21,140
or are we failing?

1321
01:20:22,970 --> 01:20:28,170
I I think it's I think the more integrative it is, the healthier it is.

1322
01:20:28,330 --> 01:20:31,690
And so we did in this book want to have.

1323
01:20:32,570 --> 01:20:38,090
So this book was still meant to be, it's called human behavioral ecology, right?

1324
01:20:38,170 --> 01:20:42,330
And so it was meant to give you that perspective first and foremost.

1325
01:20:42,410 --> 01:20:46,250
But and so there are chapters, and there's an evolutionary psychology chapter, there's a

1326
01:20:46,250 --> 01:20:50,170
cultural evolution chapter, and there's like a human biology chapter.

1327
01:20:50,500 --> 01:20:56,180
And in an ideal world, the book would the the

1328
01:20:56,180 --> 01:21:00,980
book would be evolutionary social sciences or something and the whole book would be more

1329
01:21:00,980 --> 01:21:01,700
integrated, right?

1330
01:21:01,780 --> 01:21:03,540
But that wasn't really the goal for this book.

1331
01:21:03,700 --> 01:21:08,660
This book was like we wanted to sort of give an update to the nineteen ninety two um Smith

1332
01:21:08,660 --> 01:21:12,500
and Winterholder, the what we call the Green Bible, right?

1333
01:21:13,460 --> 01:21:15,290
I have it on my shelf behind me.

1334
01:21:15,850 --> 01:21:17,770
I love it from Durban's class.

1335
01:21:18,250 --> 01:21:19,210
And it's great, right?

1336
01:21:19,290 --> 01:21:22,410
And it and so we didn't want to, we didn't want to reinvent the wheel.

1337
01:21:22,490 --> 01:21:25,610
We wanted this to be so what does it look like 25 years later?

1338
01:21:25,850 --> 01:21:31,450
But we um and so each chapter is more integrative, I think, but it's

1339
01:21:31,450 --> 01:21:35,610
still mainly, you know, it's like 80% HBE kind of thing.

1340
01:21:35,850 --> 01:21:41,530
But um I think that my hope is that the

1341
01:21:41,530 --> 01:21:47,020
next book finds, you know, would be something that really weaves all

1342
01:21:47,020 --> 01:21:48,940
three in throughout, right?

1343
01:21:49,100 --> 01:21:51,500
And gives a more integrated perspective throughout.

1344
01:21:51,580 --> 01:21:53,260
And I think that is happening more.

1345
01:21:53,340 --> 01:21:59,020
I mean, I like I said, most of the behavioral ecologists that I know are um

1346
01:21:59,980 --> 01:22:05,740
sort of over those debates that, you know, is it domain specific versus domain

1347
01:22:05,740 --> 01:22:06,060
general?

1348
01:22:06,140 --> 01:22:11,820
And is it, you know, like I think that that kind of like universal versus versus variation,

1349
01:22:11,980 --> 01:22:12,220
right?

1350
01:22:12,300 --> 01:22:17,310
Like to me, like those those debates are kind of tired at this point.

1351
01:22:17,470 --> 01:22:22,830
And most of the people who are really actively doing this don't want to just keep

1352
01:22:22,830 --> 01:22:27,150
recycling those old arguments, but we want to now think like, okay, we understand those are

1353
01:22:27,150 --> 01:22:28,350
false dichotomies.

1354
01:22:28,510 --> 01:22:30,110
Now, how do we move forward?

1355
01:22:30,350 --> 01:22:33,790
And I think that's where we need better methods.

1356
01:22:34,030 --> 01:22:37,470
We need, you know, we need people talking to each other more.

1357
01:22:37,630 --> 01:22:39,630
Um, and then we can start to do that.

1358
01:22:39,790 --> 01:22:44,620
I mean, I I I think it's

1359
01:22:45,500 --> 01:22:51,340
I I think we need to I still think we need to do it by more better better

1360
01:22:51,340 --> 01:22:53,980
communication um I really think is key.

1361
01:22:54,140 --> 01:22:58,780
So getting psychologists in, you know, it it doesn't help that we're in different

1362
01:22:58,780 --> 01:23:00,380
departments so often, right?

1363
01:23:00,620 --> 01:23:05,890
So, you know, you and I, all three of us actually came from depart universities where those

1364
01:23:05,890 --> 01:23:08,370
departments were much more integrated with one another.

1365
01:23:08,690 --> 01:23:14,450
Yes, UCLA and UCSB were were kind were gold examples of anthropsy and other

1366
01:23:14,450 --> 01:23:20,290
department inter interdisciplinary but I think that trying to to sort of

1367
01:23:20,290 --> 01:23:24,290
encourage that kind even if you're you may be housed in different departments and there are

1368
01:23:24,290 --> 01:23:30,260
issues about you know sort of the incentive structures of publishing in psychology versus

1369
01:23:30,260 --> 01:23:31,140
anthropology, right?

1370
01:23:31,220 --> 01:23:35,140
Like I think we're a lot more forgiving in anthropology for having being able to sort of

1371
01:23:35,140 --> 01:23:40,340
take your time and publish a little less, but that you know, doing field work is hard and

1372
01:23:40,340 --> 01:23:41,060
long, right?

1373
01:23:41,300 --> 01:23:43,620
Um, and and that those are real things, right?

1374
01:23:43,700 --> 01:23:46,500
Like psychologists still have to get tenure in psychology departments.

1375
01:23:46,580 --> 01:23:50,340
And so you can't ignore the fact that they have a different incentive structure.

1376
01:23:50,580 --> 01:23:56,190
But I think if you can the the conversational part of it, the like get together once a week

1377
01:23:56,190 --> 01:24:00,750
and hash this stuff out in a joint lab group and that kind of stuff, like that that can

1378
01:24:00,750 --> 01:24:05,230
happen even if each party still has their own sort of incentive structures about what and

1379
01:24:05,230 --> 01:24:06,270
where they're gonna publish.

1380
01:24:06,430 --> 01:24:12,030
Like, but getting those conversations to happen more, I think would be the the soapbox I

1381
01:24:12,030 --> 01:24:15,100
would I would stand on about how to move the field forward.

1382
01:24:15,420 --> 01:24:16,220
Yeah, that's great.

1383
01:24:16,380 --> 01:24:18,460
It's just connecting people.

1384
01:24:18,700 --> 01:24:23,180
So it's uh John Tuby always talked about science as a bunch of little villages.

1385
01:24:23,340 --> 01:24:28,540
And it's basically that um it he was always like it's so shocking how you think there's

1386
01:24:28,540 --> 01:24:32,620
these like formal structures, but really it comes down to like who interacts with who on a

1387
01:24:32,620 --> 01:24:33,340
regular basis.

1388
01:24:33,500 --> 01:24:37,660
And I mean it's it's just exactly what you're talking about is if you don't have regular

1389
01:24:37,660 --> 01:24:43,150
interaction face to face with people, you're not going to treat them with the kind of

1390
01:24:43,150 --> 01:24:46,030
thought or even think about what they're thinking about, right?

1391
01:24:46,110 --> 01:24:50,350
It's just the way to sort of be in each other's minds is to be in each other's faces, I

1392
01:24:50,350 --> 01:24:50,510
guess.

1393
01:24:50,670 --> 01:24:51,630
In a in a nice way.

1394
01:24:55,870 --> 01:24:59,470
I think that they were more able to do that, right?

1395
01:24:59,550 --> 01:25:04,280
Because there were like you look at that pic that picture of the at Mich at University of

1396
01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:06,360
Michigan from early meeting, right?

1397
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:10,440
And it's like you've got biologists, you've got psychologists, you've got anthropologists,

1398
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:12,280
like because there weren't very many of them.

1399
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:18,200
And I think maybe that's one of the good things about HBE and the sort of

1400
01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:21,960
downsides of being an evolutionary psychologist is just the size of the fields, right?

1401
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:25,170
So like HBE just has always been smaller.

1402
01:25:25,330 --> 01:25:27,250
And so we've been more forced.

1403
01:25:27,330 --> 01:25:31,490
I mean I think we always thought about it as like we're on the margins of, you know, of

1404
01:25:31,490 --> 01:25:33,410
something like HBAS or something like that.

1405
01:25:33,490 --> 01:25:39,490
But in in some ways that's kept us honest in that we've been forced to have to

1406
01:25:39,570 --> 01:25:44,060
to be a little bit more integrative to sort of, you know, grow our networks and things like

1407
01:25:44,060 --> 01:25:44,220
that.

1408
01:25:44,460 --> 01:25:49,420
Whereas psychologists can be more insular because there's so many of you, right?

1409
01:25:49,580 --> 01:25:53,580
And even even just the evolutionary psychologists within this bigger field of psychology,

1410
01:25:53,740 --> 01:25:54,940
there's so many of you.

1411
01:25:55,340 --> 01:26:01,260
And so you can sort of silo off and still be surrounded by lots of people and

1412
01:26:01,260 --> 01:26:02,220
lots of viewpoints.

1413
01:26:02,380 --> 01:26:06,380
It's just you're not going outside the field as much, right?

1414
01:26:06,620 --> 01:26:06,780
Yeah.

1415
01:26:06,940 --> 01:26:11,390
It's a good example of like you can really fail by succeeding, or even evolutionary

1416
01:26:11,390 --> 01:26:12,270
psychology.

1417
01:26:12,430 --> 01:26:16,990
We talked about this with Dan Conroy Beam about how like a lot of psychologists because of

1418
01:26:17,070 --> 01:26:21,870
psych sort of succeeded in being acceptable, it's become this thing where there's sort of

1419
01:26:21,870 --> 01:26:26,590
the like LaCroix-flavored, uh like evolution, like just very like a light touch of

1420
01:26:26,590 --> 01:26:27,070
evolution.

1421
01:26:27,230 --> 01:26:32,860
So it's not adaptationism, it's not asking about adaptive problems or going adaptive

1422
01:26:32,860 --> 01:26:36,620
problem first or even considering adaptive problems, but it's just sort of like with a a

1423
01:26:36,620 --> 01:26:38,380
little garnish of evolution.

1424
01:26:38,540 --> 01:26:41,340
And then uh and then you get enough people doing that.

1425
01:26:41,500 --> 01:26:46,780
Again, it's this base rate thing where there's tons of people who do that in a small number

1426
01:26:46,780 --> 01:26:47,900
of adaptationists.

1427
01:26:47,980 --> 01:26:50,940
And then you get students coming in, they're like, well, this is all evolutionary

1428
01:26:50,940 --> 01:26:54,730
psychology, and 80% of it is the weird garnish, right?

1429
01:26:54,810 --> 01:26:57,850
And that's that's a concern I certainly feel.

1430
01:26:58,090 --> 01:27:02,010
So um, so yeah, maybe the secret to success is not succeeding.

1431
01:27:02,970 --> 01:27:06,010
And and then you let you put sex on top of that, right?

1432
01:27:06,090 --> 01:27:09,690
So it's like, oh, you want to get undergraduates interested in taking a course?

1433
01:27:10,010 --> 01:27:10,890
Sex is a title, right?

1434
01:27:11,530 --> 01:27:12,490
And sex differences, yeah.

1435
01:27:12,810 --> 01:27:13,690
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1436
01:27:13,770 --> 01:27:17,610
And because again, going back to the intuition thing, like everybody, right, they take that

1437
01:27:17,610 --> 01:27:22,280
class, and this it totally explains why my boyfriend did what he did or this, you know.

1438
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:27,160
Like every everybody loves to to you know sort of to to do this.

1439
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:30,600
But um it and that grows, right?

1440
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:34,440
Everybody it's much it's harder to do the anthropology.

1441
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:36,600
It's it's not as cut and dry.

1442
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:40,840
Like I feel like I my poor students, it's like they come to me with something like that,

1443
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:46,810
and then I'm like, uh yeah, maybe this explains why your boyfriend's doing what they're

1444
01:27:46,810 --> 01:27:47,210
doing, right?

1445
01:27:47,290 --> 01:27:51,850
But I always try to sort of like temper those things when they come into my office with

1446
01:27:51,850 --> 01:27:57,610
things like that because it's like I don't want to reinforce this kind of pop psychology c

1447
01:27:57,770 --> 01:27:59,450
explanation for all these things.

1448
01:27:59,770 --> 01:27:59,930
Yeah.

1449
01:28:00,010 --> 01:28:04,900
I mean, I think there's a trade-off between if you come in with no thought about it and

1450
01:28:04,900 --> 01:28:07,780
then you really discover the insights and you're excited about it.

1451
01:28:07,860 --> 01:28:09,060
That's a wonderful thing.

1452
01:28:09,220 --> 01:28:14,580
But that's the early stage to a more mature grown-up stage, which is

1453
01:28:15,300 --> 01:28:16,980
and those are just different things, you know.

1454
01:28:17,060 --> 01:28:21,700
And I think you have to resp uh one, you know, one wants to respect both things, but

1455
01:28:21,700 --> 01:28:26,370
exactly right, is just sort of saying, that's true and that's great, but it's going to be

1456
01:28:26,370 --> 01:28:30,210
more complicated and let's keep going and not just sort of yeah.

1457
01:28:30,370 --> 01:28:32,370
Do you run into with the work you do?

1458
01:28:32,530 --> 01:28:37,490
I mean, this might be a transition to like you have a paper about like the manosphere and

1459
01:28:37,490 --> 01:28:38,530
what it gets wrong.

1460
01:28:38,770 --> 01:28:41,650
And I don't want to either essentialize a whole group of people too.

1461
01:28:41,730 --> 01:28:47,650
Like I think there's, especially in a modern environment where people um uh, you

1462
01:28:47,650 --> 01:28:52,530
know, and especially like young men feel this deep imperative to be mated.

1463
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:56,720
And we talked to Chris von Ruden and there's always sort of losers in their mating market.

1464
01:28:56,880 --> 01:28:57,680
And it hurts.

1465
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:03,520
And it's like it's very, you know, like it's a, I think a lack of empathy for people who

1466
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:08,960
feel the pain of like not feeling like the world fits them and they don't understand why

1467
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:12,240
they can't be successful in the way they look around that other people are.

1468
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:14,880
I think it's a mistake to not empathize with them.

1469
01:29:15,170 --> 01:29:20,690
But at the same time, that creates a market for bad ideas that aren't either sophisticated

1470
01:29:20,690 --> 01:29:22,530
or just done right wrong or dangerous.

1471
01:29:22,610 --> 01:29:28,450
And so do you have um in your experience or in doing this work,

1472
01:29:28,530 --> 01:29:33,010
uh like where where are you at in terms of like looking at that stuff, or is that something

1473
01:29:33,010 --> 01:29:34,370
you're not really looking at?

1474
01:29:35,330 --> 01:29:40,930
Yeah, I mean, I think when I started looking at cuckaldry, and there sort of was this

1475
01:29:40,930 --> 01:29:46,680
natural use of the term and the within the manosphere but that sort of

1476
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:48,280
played on all of all of that.

1477
01:29:48,440 --> 01:29:53,880
And and I agree about the the empathy piece, but I think that there are every

1478
01:29:54,520 --> 01:30:00,520
it's not just men, right, who are who are you know on the on the downside of

1479
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:06,280
the the mating market is right that this can go either way and in in in often cases I think

1480
01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:12,210
there's an equal um kind of movement of of women, particularly

1481
01:30:12,210 --> 01:30:15,890
as they get older who are worried about finding a partner and things like that in the

1482
01:30:15,890 --> 01:30:18,370
mating market is often against them, right?

1483
01:30:18,450 --> 01:30:18,850
And yet.

1484
01:30:19,650 --> 01:30:25,010
And and there is some, you know, small slice of man hating that goes that goes along with

1485
01:30:25,010 --> 01:30:25,970
some of that too, right?

1486
01:30:26,050 --> 01:30:30,370
So it's not that this is like only men who have these sort of negative perceptions.

1487
01:30:30,530 --> 01:30:35,620
But I think I think some of it, you know, is every

1488
01:30:36,260 --> 01:30:42,100
of course there are differences in people's um eligibility on the mating

1489
01:30:42,100 --> 01:30:43,620
market and things like that, right?

1490
01:30:43,940 --> 01:30:49,860
But I think also you can these things are my concern as the mother of a 12 year old

1491
01:30:49,860 --> 01:30:54,820
boy, right, is that I worry that these things are are getting um

1492
01:30:55,510 --> 01:31:00,790
thrown at them en masse at such a young age that like the first time they have like a crush

1493
01:31:00,790 --> 01:31:06,710
who doesn't like them back and they can like spiral into this um this sort of

1494
01:31:06,710 --> 01:31:12,470
dark web of explanations for why they why that happened to them.

1495
01:31:12,630 --> 01:31:16,550
And in reality, like these are just blips that happen to everybody over the course of a

1496
01:31:16,550 --> 01:31:17,590
long love life, right?

1497
01:31:18,630 --> 01:31:23,680
And so I I I think that's from a personal perspective, that's my concern about it, is that

1498
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:28,880
it's sort of spinning some of you know, some extrapolations of this theory where they're

1499
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:33,920
you know taking some piece and they're they're spinning it off in a way that wasn't it

1500
01:31:33,920 --> 01:31:39,840
wasn't meant to be, you know, spun off in that way, and they're able to sort of foment

1501
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:42,560
all of this kind of misogyny, basically.

1502
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:48,790
Um, But and I do think that we as scientists have a responsibility if we're

1503
01:31:48,870 --> 01:31:54,870
if we are talking about these topics to get out there and and right

1504
01:31:55,190 --> 01:31:57,110
these wrongs in the science, right?

1505
01:31:57,190 --> 01:32:01,990
So I wrote that piece in part because I was concerned about the fact that the science was

1506
01:32:01,990 --> 01:32:03,910
getting written about in an incorrect way.

1507
01:32:03,990 --> 01:32:08,460
And like that Scientific American piece is more about cockledry isn't always what you think

1508
01:32:08,460 --> 01:32:09,020
it is, right?

1509
01:32:09,100 --> 01:32:14,460
Like there's this idea that it's about men being tricked and these wily women.

1510
01:32:14,540 --> 01:32:18,140
And I was trying to sort of counter that with an anthropological perspective.

1511
01:32:18,220 --> 01:32:24,060
But I think generally we need to not just lean on

1512
01:32:24,060 --> 01:32:28,380
the excuse of, well, I didn't mean it that way.

1513
01:32:28,620 --> 01:32:33,850
You know, I only said this one thing, and it's not my fault that that people, you know,

1514
01:32:34,010 --> 01:32:36,170
took it and spun it off in this other direction.

1515
01:32:36,330 --> 01:32:41,850
I think that if, you know, if this is my bread and butter in terms of my research, that I

1516
01:32:41,850 --> 01:32:46,410
also have a responsibility to explicitly say what I think it does and doesn't mean.

1517
01:32:46,490 --> 01:32:52,090
And that to me is personally important, like in terms of like the way that I that I think

1518
01:32:52,090 --> 01:32:53,210
about doing science.

1519
01:32:53,610 --> 01:32:53,770
Yeah.

1520
01:32:54,010 --> 01:32:59,820
Do you think that people I mean, because there I can see two

1521
01:32:59,820 --> 01:33:00,380
arguments.

1522
01:33:00,540 --> 01:33:05,980
One is that people lean on it because it serves their interests and they don't care if

1523
01:33:05,980 --> 01:33:07,740
there's science behind it or not.

1524
01:33:07,900 --> 01:33:11,180
And there's another argument where people lean on it, but other people believe them because

1525
01:33:11,180 --> 01:33:12,700
it has a scientific credibility.

1526
01:33:12,780 --> 01:33:14,540
And maybe both things happen.

1527
01:33:14,780 --> 01:33:18,780
I have no idea, and I don't know to what extent like this is knowable.

1528
01:33:18,940 --> 01:33:23,190
But like, you know, I've heard people sort of say, well, people, it doesn't matter what

1529
01:33:23,190 --> 01:33:24,790
scientists say because they don't care.

1530
01:33:24,950 --> 01:33:27,830
Like they would just use this towards their own ends anyway.

1531
01:33:28,070 --> 01:33:31,430
And I actually don't know what I think about that answer.

1532
01:33:31,590 --> 01:33:35,110
I mean, I guess it's sort of just very much like an excuse to not do anything.

1533
01:33:35,190 --> 01:33:35,670
But I don't know.

1534
01:33:35,750 --> 01:33:37,030
Do you have a thought about that?

1535
01:33:37,190 --> 01:33:42,150
Or I mean, maybe it's sort of obvious that it's just sort of, well, we have to do our best.

1536
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:48,440
I mean I think that there are people very explicitly using the sign like picking

1537
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:53,480
picking little pieces of these papers and and trying to use them to justify it.

1538
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:58,360
So I think that that I don't know what percentage of the audience cares about that argument

1539
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:01,560
versus the other part of the argument or just broader argument.

1540
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:03,880
But I think that it is happening for sure.

1541
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:04,520
For sure.

1542
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:05,640
Yeah that's undeniable.

1543
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:05,880
Yeah.

1544
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:11,850
And so I think that um you know but we need to

1545
01:34:12,010 --> 01:34:17,210
correct that course correct that where we can and I think again like part of it is my role

1546
01:34:17,210 --> 01:34:21,450
as a scientist course correcting it and part of it is my role as a mom course correcting it

1547
01:34:21,610 --> 01:34:27,610
right because I think that it's also you know just taking off the scientist hat like as

1548
01:34:27,610 --> 01:34:31,850
a I'm not having conversations with my 12 year old necessarily about why the science is

1549
01:34:31,850 --> 01:34:37,770
wrong as much as I exactly you know but I mean more and more but I but um but

1550
01:34:37,770 --> 01:34:43,620
I think that that we we need to be aware that this stuff is happening

1551
01:34:43,700 --> 01:34:48,660
and that they are, you know, I mean this gets more into arguments about the role of social

1552
01:34:48,660 --> 01:34:50,100
media and all this kind of stuff.

1553
01:34:50,260 --> 01:34:56,260
But I think that that the science is is feeding into it and and we

1554
01:34:56,260 --> 01:35:02,020
just it I I hope that we can also do the science that gets the

1555
01:35:02,020 --> 01:35:04,500
nuance a little bit more out there too, right?

1556
01:35:04,660 --> 01:35:09,330
Because I think that with all with all things, right?

1557
01:35:09,410 --> 01:35:13,410
It's easier to digest the the soundbite of it.

1558
01:35:13,730 --> 01:35:19,090
And um and I I I worry about our culture being just

1559
01:35:19,090 --> 01:35:21,890
increasingly soundbite oriented, I guess, right?

1560
01:35:21,970 --> 01:35:26,290
It's not just like the cuckledry stuff is one example of that, but I think it's this is a

1561
01:35:26,290 --> 01:35:28,610
bigger, bigger problem that I can't solve.

1562
01:35:28,850 --> 01:35:30,210
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1563
01:35:31,020 --> 01:35:34,940
Yeah, I mean it's it's hard to fight against, you know, because the the internet

1564
01:35:35,180 --> 01:35:39,100
incentivizes the quippy, uh simplistic soundbite.

1565
01:35:39,260 --> 01:35:44,940
Um, and you know, the best we can do is, you know, try to at least make the

1566
01:35:44,940 --> 01:35:49,900
nuance and and the real science available for people who are looking for it and want to

1567
01:35:49,900 --> 01:35:50,300
find it.

1568
01:35:50,460 --> 01:35:55,500
That's I think one of the big impetuses behind this podcast is is not to, you know,

1569
01:35:55,660 --> 01:36:01,030
condense the science into a soundbite or into you know a talking point for one or

1570
01:36:01,030 --> 01:36:06,870
another ideology, but to just give people a real glimpse of what the science is like,

1571
01:36:07,030 --> 01:36:08,070
warts and all.

1572
01:36:08,230 --> 01:36:13,030
It may be boring to some people, but that's okay because reality is complicated and nuanced

1573
01:36:13,030 --> 01:36:18,230
and hard to understand, and it can sometimes overwhelm uh the puny human mind who is trying

1574
01:36:18,230 --> 01:36:19,030
to grasp it.

1575
01:36:19,190 --> 01:36:24,340
Um and so I think that that is one of our goals of of putting this this stuff out there.

1576
01:36:24,580 --> 01:36:30,500
Yes, it's going to be hard for it to compete with the more uh flashy propagandistic stuff

1577
01:36:30,500 --> 01:36:34,660
that's out there, but at the very least it is available to be found for the people who want

1578
01:36:34,660 --> 01:36:35,540
to find it.

1579
01:36:35,780 --> 01:36:41,780
Um so as we're uh approaching um the the end of our time with you, I'm curious if

1580
01:36:41,780 --> 01:36:45,300
there's anything you wish that we had talked about that we didn't ask you, any any

1581
01:36:45,300 --> 01:36:48,260
particular topic that you would have loved to to delve into.

1582
01:36:48,970 --> 01:36:49,530
Oh gosh.

1583
01:36:49,690 --> 01:36:52,090
See, I knew you were going to ask me this and now I still don't.

1584
01:36:53,930 --> 01:36:58,890
So we we we covered we covered you know cuckoldry, we covered you know concurrency and the

1585
01:36:58,890 --> 01:37:04,730
Inva, we covered the sociology of science and human behavioral ecology and the manosphere.

1586
01:37:04,890 --> 01:37:06,010
We really we we covered a lot.

1587
01:37:06,090 --> 01:37:11,370
Is there I mean hmm we didn't get to one of the one of the things that I had on my list, we

1588
01:37:11,370 --> 01:37:12,570
didn't get to women's status.

1589
01:37:12,730 --> 01:37:14,090
I know you had a paper on that.

1590
01:37:14,490 --> 01:37:16,170
I'm I'm very curious about that.

1591
01:37:16,730 --> 01:37:20,700
It's it's actually a perfect example of the of the sound bidification of our culture in

1592
01:37:20,700 --> 01:37:24,380
that you know when men seek status they often do it in a very violent and conspicuous way

1593
01:37:24,460 --> 01:37:25,580
that is hard for us to ignore.

1594
01:37:25,660 --> 01:37:27,420
And in fact that is often by design.

1595
01:37:27,900 --> 01:37:30,540
But yet women's status seeking tends to be less conspicuous.

1596
01:37:30,620 --> 01:37:34,220
But it is still there and it is still hugely important and we need to uh understand it as

1597
01:37:34,220 --> 01:37:34,860
social scientists.

1598
01:37:34,940 --> 01:37:40,380
So I'm curious what what your take is on on on women's status and and what's going on

1599
01:37:40,380 --> 01:37:40,700
there.

1600
01:37:41,370 --> 01:37:46,250
Yeah, I think I mean we did have a paper on this, and we found I think actually what was

1601
01:37:46,250 --> 01:37:51,530
interesting to me was some of the similarities between what was driving men's and women's

1602
01:37:51,530 --> 01:37:52,970
status, at least among himbus.

1603
01:37:53,050 --> 01:37:56,490
So generosity, for example, was important for both.

1604
01:37:56,730 --> 01:38:01,130
Um, so we had found that previously that, you know, as I talked about, sort of being

1605
01:38:01,130 --> 01:38:05,770
generous was is a good trait for a man to have, and be and we found that for women too.

1606
01:38:05,930 --> 01:38:11,560
Surpr would more surprisingly to mean that there wasn't kind of a a as clear

1607
01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:13,560
explicit an explanation for it.

1608
01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:19,560
But I think I think it emphasizes to me the extrinsic

1609
01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:25,480
parts of status are as important as the in like I think because we're focused on men's

1610
01:38:25,480 --> 01:38:31,240
status that we often think about this in terms of like um internal qualities about

1611
01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:34,200
masculinity and strength and and things like that, right?

1612
01:38:34,280 --> 01:38:36,360
And how good a hunter you are or whatever it is.

1613
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:36,760
Right.

1614
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:42,650
But I think that the social aspects of how how connected are you and in what

1615
01:38:42,650 --> 01:38:44,250
ways and how do you treat other people?

1616
01:38:44,330 --> 01:38:50,250
And so things like respectfulness and generosity and things like that um pop out at

1617
01:38:50,250 --> 01:38:54,970
me as some of the things that, and maybe those are things that again, because they're a

1618
01:38:54,970 --> 01:38:58,170
little bit more understated, maybe they're a bigger part of women's status than men's

1619
01:38:58,170 --> 01:38:58,410
status.

1620
01:38:58,490 --> 01:39:01,980
I don't know that we know the answer to that yet, because we just don't have enough data on

1621
01:39:01,980 --> 01:39:03,020
women's status.

1622
01:39:03,260 --> 01:39:08,540
But I think that even for men, like those subtle things that are a little harder to pick up

1623
01:39:08,700 --> 01:39:13,740
because you can't measure them in terms of grip strength or muscularity or something, I'd

1624
01:39:13,740 --> 01:39:18,300
like to see more work on status, I guess, sort of start to look at that.

1625
01:39:18,380 --> 01:39:19,980
And Chris does do some of that.

1626
01:39:20,060 --> 01:39:25,670
But I think that if you look at like the larger body of work, the you know, Male

1627
01:39:25,670 --> 01:39:31,190
attractiveness and male, you know, the ability to get a woman, there's a a much bigger

1628
01:39:31,190 --> 01:39:36,630
chunk of the literature looking at physical strength and status coming out of the sort of

1629
01:39:36,630 --> 01:39:38,310
the legacy of sexual selection, right?

1630
01:39:38,470 --> 01:39:43,430
But I mean, like we said, we're humans, we're complicated, we're cultural, we're navigating

1631
01:39:43,430 --> 01:39:44,390
all of these norms.

1632
01:39:44,550 --> 01:39:49,910
The ways in which we do that I think is probably much more integrated into status than

1633
01:39:49,910 --> 01:39:51,830
we've uncovered so far.

1634
01:39:52,870 --> 01:39:53,110
Yeah.

1635
01:39:53,340 --> 01:39:58,300
I mean, do you do you buy um so there there's this uh approach to you know women versus

1636
01:39:58,300 --> 01:40:02,140
men's status seeking and social relationships that you know uh throughout evolutionary

1637
01:40:02,140 --> 01:40:06,780
history, men were more involved in coalitional competition and and intergroup warfare.

1638
01:40:06,940 --> 01:40:11,740
Therefore their social strategy should be more geared towards forming, you know, larger

1639
01:40:11,740 --> 01:40:12,380
coalitions.

1640
01:40:12,460 --> 01:40:16,620
So they should have a you know a larger number of shallow uh male relationships.

1641
01:40:16,700 --> 01:40:21,410
And if they have a the fight, they should be able to, you know, uh uh make amends more

1642
01:40:21,410 --> 01:40:25,010
quickly, whereas women it's a smaller number of more intense social relationships.

1643
01:40:25,090 --> 01:40:28,530
There's more of a vibe of egalitarianism and mutual trust.

1644
01:40:28,690 --> 01:40:33,090
Uh perhaps it's more geared toward uh cooperative uh breeding.

1645
01:40:33,250 --> 01:40:38,930
Um so that's sort of a perspective I see uh in in the literature approaching, you know,

1646
01:40:39,010 --> 01:40:42,420
women's versus men's uh sociality and status seeking.

1647
01:40:42,580 --> 01:40:44,020
Uh do you do you buy that narrative?

1648
01:40:44,180 --> 01:40:46,900
Do you think it's parts of it are right or parts of it are wrong.

1649
01:40:46,980 --> 01:40:49,460
Where do you where do you fit in with with that picture?

1650
01:40:49,940 --> 01:40:55,460
I mean I think I buy that the

1651
01:40:55,460 --> 01:41:00,340
importance of of status for men and women is going to reflect what their daily lives are

1652
01:41:00,340 --> 01:41:01,060
like, right?

1653
01:41:01,300 --> 01:41:05,060
And and the source the rules and norms that they have to abide by.

1654
01:41:05,220 --> 01:41:11,130
So if you have um but so I

1655
01:41:11,370 --> 01:41:15,690
think first of all, I guess there's this idea that somehow wider, broader networks are

1656
01:41:15,690 --> 01:41:19,370
better than deeper, uh smaller networks.

1657
01:41:19,530 --> 01:41:24,330
And I right like that because I think we've attached this idea that like human sociality

1658
01:41:24,330 --> 01:41:29,050
and the ability to like that's all because of men's, you know, large networks or something

1659
01:41:29,130 --> 01:41:34,010
that we've decided that those are the traits that matter the most and not something about

1660
01:41:34,010 --> 01:41:37,050
these kind of more subtle um connections.

1661
01:41:37,290 --> 01:41:41,540
I mean, women often are often the ones who are moving into a whole new household upon

1662
01:41:41,540 --> 01:41:42,260
marriage, right?

1663
01:41:42,340 --> 01:41:45,940
So so patrilocal residence is more common than matrilocal residence.

1664
01:41:46,020 --> 01:41:49,940
And so women are having to create and build a whole new network.

1665
01:41:50,100 --> 01:41:55,220
Now, maybe that has a few deep connections, but that's still really important in terms of

1666
01:41:55,220 --> 01:41:57,700
alliance building across groups and things like that.

1667
01:41:57,780 --> 01:41:58,660
So that's one part.

1668
01:41:58,820 --> 01:42:04,330
I think the other part is that women's roles in men's networks are really understudied

1669
01:42:04,490 --> 01:42:06,730
because they often again are more subtle, right?

1670
01:42:06,890 --> 01:42:11,610
So if men are making these decisions and the men are the ones who are sitting there having

1671
01:42:11,690 --> 01:42:17,610
the formal discussions, making those decisions, it's often their wives who are they're

1672
01:42:17,610 --> 01:42:22,250
having behind the scenes conversations with their wives, their sisters, their mothers,

1673
01:42:22,330 --> 01:42:22,570
right?

1674
01:42:22,730 --> 01:42:28,440
Who are all you know uh equally involved in that process, but they may not be

1675
01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:33,080
their influence may not be as easily picked up in that it may not be as showy.

1676
01:42:33,480 --> 01:42:38,680
And you know, I think that's another way that I think we need to think about the role of

1677
01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:43,640
women's status that is it's harder to collect those data, but I think it's important and we

1678
01:42:43,640 --> 01:42:49,240
need to again think about new ways that we can try and and actually explicit go

1679
01:42:49,480 --> 01:42:52,200
explicitly go out and try and try and pick that stuff up.

1680
01:42:52,360 --> 01:42:57,470
Because I think I I do push back against this general assumption that it is

1681
01:42:57,470 --> 01:43:03,470
men's um ability to cooperate that has driven us as a species as if women were

1682
01:43:03,550 --> 01:43:08,430
are in the just because they may have been relegated to the backseat doesn't mean that they

1683
01:43:08,430 --> 01:43:11,790
are actually in the backseat in terms of how a lot of these decisions are made.

1684
01:43:12,190 --> 01:43:16,040
Yeah no it's interesting I remember we we we sort of touched on this with our episode with

1685
01:43:16,040 --> 01:43:21,480
with Brenda Bowser on how women's social influence uh may be less

1686
01:43:21,480 --> 01:43:26,520
conspicuous and visible by design, uh and that if it is detected, then it often gets

1687
01:43:26,520 --> 01:43:27,240
penalized.

1688
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:32,200
And so they have strategies where they can try to covertly influence affairs, which

1689
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:36,120
unfortunately makes our job as scientists much harder, uh, because now we have to detect

1690
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:39,720
this thing as that is intentionally being concealed for strategic reasons.

1691
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:44,030
Um but it does it make it uh way more interesting, I think.

1692
01:43:44,190 --> 01:43:48,110
Um I'm curious if you if you have any thoughts about, you know, the the the strategic

1693
01:43:48,110 --> 01:43:51,550
nature of of the ways in which uh influence might be concealed.

1694
01:43:52,110 --> 01:43:57,230
Yeah, I mean I think that if like with Himba, for example, they're making these decisions.

1695
01:43:57,390 --> 01:44:03,310
Like you can wa the this summer when we were there, um they were having a court case.

1696
01:44:03,470 --> 01:44:09,000
Um And so the way that they do that is that everybody sort of gathers and they're talking

1697
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:14,120
this through, and then through sort of consensus, they're deciding on what the punishments

1698
01:44:14,120 --> 01:44:14,760
should be.

1699
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:19,960
And it's the met like you can it's so obvious, right?

1700
01:44:20,040 --> 01:44:24,360
Because the men are the inner circle, the main circle are all of these men, right?

1701
01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:29,550
And then the women are sitting in groups on the outskirts of that main inner circle.

1702
01:44:29,630 --> 01:44:29,870
Right.

1703
01:44:30,030 --> 01:44:33,470
And so you look at that, and your first impression might be, well, it's the men who are

1704
01:44:33,470 --> 01:44:37,550
making these decisions, and the women are just sidelined where they're just sort of

1705
01:44:37,550 --> 01:44:39,550
passively listening or something like that.

1706
01:44:39,710 --> 01:44:39,950
Right.

1707
01:44:40,350 --> 01:44:46,270
And yet most Timba men will tell you that they've had conversations with their wives

1708
01:44:46,270 --> 01:44:48,270
and their mothers and other women in their house.

1709
01:44:48,350 --> 01:44:51,870
So, well, they're all sitting around talking about this stuff and deconstructing it around

1710
01:44:51,870 --> 01:44:52,670
the fire at night.

1711
01:44:52,750 --> 01:44:56,860
And then the men go back the next day and they're, you know they're in that same structure

1712
01:44:56,860 --> 01:45:00,940
where they're talking but to think that they're not being influenced by those fireside

1713
01:45:00,940 --> 01:45:06,860
conversations which are you know mixed gender kinds of conversations or like then they

1714
01:45:06,860 --> 01:45:10,300
go back to their huts and they're lying maybe you know even maybe if the women are more

1715
01:45:10,300 --> 01:45:13,660
silent around the fire but then they go back to their hut at night and just the husband and

1716
01:45:13,660 --> 01:45:19,100
wife and she may tell them what she really thinks and you know so I mean yes it is hard to

1717
01:45:19,100 --> 01:45:24,110
pick up but we know better now right like I I I think this is if you're gonna move the

1718
01:45:24,110 --> 01:45:27,870
science forward, like if you look at like the ethnographic atlas or something like that,

1719
01:45:27,950 --> 01:45:28,270
right?

1720
01:45:28,350 --> 01:45:33,870
Like a lot of what we take for these cross-cultural work, and this is not to throw shade on

1721
01:45:33,870 --> 01:45:35,070
the ethnographic atlas, right?

1722
01:45:35,150 --> 01:45:38,670
Like this was a huge accomplishment to create something like this where we can look at

1723
01:45:38,670 --> 01:45:44,350
cross-cultural patterns, but most of those were collected by male anthropologists in the

1724
01:45:44,350 --> 01:45:47,710
19, you know, 50s, 60s, 40s, whatever it was.

1725
01:45:47,870 --> 01:45:48,110
Right.

1726
01:45:48,270 --> 01:45:50,910
And they are they're it's a first pass, right?

1727
01:45:50,990 --> 01:45:56,680
They're picking up what what they think is going on and um

1728
01:45:56,840 --> 01:46:02,200
and I think that we now can take that information and know to dig a little bit deeper.

1729
01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:07,560
Like and and so there's sort of no excuse for not doing that, I guess, is my

1730
01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:08,920
feeling, right?

1731
01:46:09,080 --> 01:46:15,030
Like we should we we we shouldn't just take for granted that the the way that people

1732
01:46:15,030 --> 01:46:19,110
sit in a circle tells you something about who has the most influence, right?

1733
01:46:19,190 --> 01:46:22,070
It tells you something, but it doesn't necessarily tell you everything.

1734
01:46:22,470 --> 01:46:22,630
Right.

1735
01:46:22,790 --> 01:46:27,190
Make making it what makes it even more challenging is that when the men come forward in the

1736
01:46:27,190 --> 01:46:31,190
political sphere and propose an idea, they often have an incentive to conceal the fact that

1737
01:46:31,190 --> 01:46:34,710
the idea came from their wife or their mother or their sister.

1738
01:46:34,950 --> 01:46:38,390
Or if they're if they're pursuing some agenda, they might have an interest in concealing

1739
01:46:38,390 --> 01:46:42,150
the fact that their you know their wife was goading them to take this course of action.

1740
01:46:42,310 --> 01:46:46,600
And so that makes it, you know, we have concealing happening from both the women's end and

1741
01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:51,000
the man's end, uh, which makes it even harder to figure out what's what's really going on.

1742
01:46:51,160 --> 01:46:51,800
Um, you know.

1743
01:46:52,440 --> 01:46:57,480
If there's a norm of respectfulness, then maybe that like women understand that like it I

1744
01:46:57,960 --> 01:47:03,240
think if women know they have that influence, then whether they're doing if they're

1745
01:47:03,240 --> 01:47:07,230
following the norm of doing it behind the scenes, that's okay as long as they have that

1746
01:47:07,230 --> 01:47:07,550
influence.

1747
01:47:07,630 --> 01:47:10,670
And I and this is not to say that there aren't places where women have very little

1748
01:47:10,670 --> 01:47:11,070
influence.

1749
01:47:11,150 --> 01:47:12,430
Like that is also true, right?

1750
01:47:12,590 --> 01:47:17,150
Like I don't downplay the idea that like you know male coercion is real.

1751
01:47:17,230 --> 01:47:23,230
Um I think that we need to be able to disambiguate the cases

1752
01:47:23,230 --> 01:47:29,150
where it's going on under the scenes versus the cases where where they really are having

1753
01:47:29,150 --> 01:47:30,980
their their thoughts and opinions.

1754
01:47:31,860 --> 01:47:32,180
Absolutely.

1755
01:47:32,260 --> 01:47:35,860
But for you know you know, from an evolutionary perspective, even in cases where women are

1756
01:47:35,940 --> 01:47:40,180
are very clearly oppressed and coerced, you would still expect uh from a from an

1757
01:47:40,180 --> 01:47:43,860
adaptationist perspective that they would effectively play the hand that they were dealt,

1758
01:47:44,020 --> 01:47:48,260
even if the hand they're dealt is shitty, they're still going to do whatever they can to uh

1759
01:47:48,340 --> 01:47:53,060
you know cause whatever influence they can cause to uh advance their their interests.

1760
01:47:53,220 --> 01:47:58,580
Um and so even there I think we we should be trying to delve as as deep as we can to figure

1761
01:47:58,580 --> 01:47:58,980
that out.

1762
01:47:59,590 --> 01:47:59,910
Yeah.

1763
01:48:00,150 --> 01:48:00,390
Yeah.

1764
01:48:00,470 --> 01:48:06,150
I remember John and Brenda saying that um it was only because they knew the community so

1765
01:48:06,150 --> 01:48:11,030
well that they could even relay these anecdotes about this kind of cryptic leadership.

1766
01:48:11,190 --> 01:48:12,870
Um, and that really stuck with me.

1767
01:48:12,950 --> 01:48:18,230
I was like, Oh boy, we're we're really we're the drunk looking for the keys and the under

1768
01:48:18,230 --> 01:48:19,110
the light.

1769
01:48:19,430 --> 01:48:20,070
Yeah.

1770
01:48:20,550 --> 01:48:21,110
Yep.

1771
01:48:21,340 --> 01:48:21,660
Yep.

1772
01:48:22,300 --> 01:48:28,060
I mean, that's like status and leadership was I feel like I've only really barely scratched

1773
01:48:28,060 --> 01:48:29,740
the surface on that as a topic.

1774
01:48:29,820 --> 01:48:32,780
You know, we did this one uh this one paper on it.

1775
01:48:32,860 --> 01:48:38,060
But I think it takes it it takes years to kind of decide that this is your thing and and

1776
01:48:38,140 --> 01:48:39,500
and dive into it.

1777
01:48:39,740 --> 01:48:45,500
Um so and it hasn't been my my area of emphasis so far, but it's you know it's fun to sort

1778
01:48:45,500 --> 01:48:50,770
of you know pick a new pick a new topic and and start to start to dig in on that too.

1779
01:48:50,850 --> 01:48:54,050
So but yeah, John and John and Brendan did a lot of that.

1780
01:48:54,130 --> 01:48:56,050
Um so over many, many years.

1781
01:48:56,130 --> 01:48:59,730
So I trust their data for sure.

1782
01:48:59,970 --> 01:49:00,530
Yeah.

1783
01:49:00,850 --> 01:49:03,490
Well, uh well, uh Brook, thank you so much.

1784
01:49:03,570 --> 01:49:06,530
We'll have to have you on again because I know there's still so much more to cover.

1785
01:49:06,690 --> 01:49:10,690
Um, but that's a good thing because it means that there's just so much more to do.

1786
01:49:10,850 --> 01:49:14,000
Um, but you know, thank you for coming on.

1787
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:15,920
Thank you for doing this work.

1788
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:19,680
Um, you know, I think every time we have an anthropologist on, we basically want to say

1789
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:24,960
thank you for your service because you know, it's hot and dry and uh, you know,

1790
01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:27,200
uncomfortable to go to the field.

1791
01:49:27,440 --> 01:49:30,800
And as you said, it's sort of humbling and difficult.

1792
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:36,850
Um, and you know, we get to sit be in our like comfortable living rooms, you know, uh, or

1793
01:49:36,850 --> 01:49:40,050
talk about it in comfortable chairs, you know, on a podcast.

1794
01:49:40,210 --> 01:49:43,970
In every sentence, you know, there's like a lot of blood, sweat, and tears that goes into

1795
01:49:43,970 --> 01:49:45,330
like the sentences you're saying.

1796
01:49:45,490 --> 01:49:47,490
So we just want to thank you for doing that.

1797
01:49:47,810 --> 01:49:48,050
Yeah.

1798
01:49:48,290 --> 01:49:48,930
Well thank you.

1799
01:49:49,010 --> 01:49:49,810
It was fun.

1800
01:49:50,370 --> 01:49:51,170
Uh yeah.

1801
01:49:51,330 --> 01:49:54,130
So uh uh David, any anything?

1802
01:49:54,450 --> 01:49:55,890
No, this was this was a blast.

1803
01:49:56,050 --> 01:49:57,780
Thanks so much for for talking to us.

1804
01:50:00,580 --> 01:50:04,980
Well, here you are at the end of another episode of Evolutionary Psychology, the podcast.

1805
01:50:05,140 --> 01:50:08,180
If you're still listening, that means you must be liking what you're hearing.

1806
01:50:08,260 --> 01:50:10,820
And if you like what you hear, then what can people do, Dave?

1807
01:50:11,220 --> 01:50:14,420
Uh they can support us by leaving a good review.

1808
01:50:14,660 --> 01:50:16,820
Our reviews have sort of petered off.

1809
01:50:16,980 --> 01:50:21,220
So uh yeah, please, if you're listening, um leave a review.

1810
01:50:21,630 --> 01:50:22,670
Yeah, absolutely.

1811
01:50:23,070 --> 01:50:27,310
Things you like, things you don't like, uh ideas for future episodes, ideas for possible

1812
01:50:27,310 --> 01:50:27,790
guests.

1813
01:50:27,950 --> 01:50:29,790
We are open to hearing all of it.

1814
01:50:29,950 --> 01:50:34,590
Um, if you're so inclined, you can check out our Patreon page and support us there, or uh

1815
01:50:34,670 --> 01:50:37,870
you can just say something uh nice about us on social media, spread the word.

1816
01:50:38,110 --> 01:50:40,030
Yeah, and David still needs that fanny pack.

1817
01:50:40,110 --> 01:50:40,910
So somebody get on there.

1818
01:50:41,390 --> 01:50:44,270
So if you have a fanny pack, please send it my way.

1819
01:50:44,430 --> 01:50:46,120
You can reach out to me uh individually.

1820
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:49,000
I won't give my uh contact information right here, but you you know where to go.

1821
01:50:49,800 --> 01:50:52,120
You can email the the you can email the email the podcast.

1822
01:50:53,960 --> 01:50:56,680
Please send a picture of the fan factor so I can make sure we'll make sure David gets it.

1823
01:50:58,440 --> 01:50:59,800
We'll make sure David gets it.

1824
01:50:59,880 --> 01:51:02,520
It's very the dimensions are very important.

1825
01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:04,360
But thank you very much for listening.

1826
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:07,400
Um and yeah, we're we just have a wonderful guests.

1827
01:51:07,480 --> 01:51:09,000
I'm very happy with our guests.

1828
01:51:09,290 --> 01:51:10,890
Yeah, our guests are fantastic.

1829
01:51:11,050 --> 01:51:12,650
We can send them fanny packs.

1830
01:51:13,050 --> 01:51:13,530
Yeah.

1831
01:51:13,690 --> 01:51:14,330
Yeah.

1832
01:51:14,890 --> 01:51:15,530
All right.

1833
01:51:16,090 --> 01:51:17,610
See you next week.