WEBVTT

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This is Evolutionary Psychology, the podcast.

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I'm David Pinsoff.

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I'm David Petrozowski.

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And this is Actual Evolutionary Psychology by Actual Evolutionary Psychologist.

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David, today we talked to Josh Ackerman.

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Yes.

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Uh this was a really fun conversation um about all things diseasey and immune system y.

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It wasn't a gross conversation at all though.

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I I would say because we've had these kinds of um you know, with like Josh Tiber, Deb

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Lieberman.

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I'm not saying those were gross either.

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Um but uh but this was I don't think there was too much gross in this.

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I think this was more uh That's true was fun and uh in a good way abstracted

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away from the the things that would elicit disgust, I would say.

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That's true.

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And in fact, we get into the distinction between uh anxiety about disease and being

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grossed out and why they are different things.

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It's kind of an interesting question, you know.

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Like you could, you know, why are we why are we grossed out versus just afraid.

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You know, what what are these different emotional profiles doing for us?

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We get into that.

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We get into the the effects of disease concern on social life and

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social networks.

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Um it was yeah, we get into like picking up on sex ratios and population density, and

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just I like this is another example of people doing really cool work that is

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counterintuitive because it's not the kind of thing you would think that pathogens would

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have a big effect on human psychology, but of course they do.

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They're huge selection pressure.

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And by doing an analysis of how pathogens affect our psychology from an evolutionary

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perspective, it suggests a whole area of research to look into.

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And as we talked about, pathogens are not a chapter in intro psych textbooks.

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But Josh is, for example, looking at how why people don't protect other people from disease

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and why why they, you know, and things like that that are really important that you

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wouldn't necessarily find out if you weren't studying the psychology of disease avoidance.

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Yeah, totally.

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And uh we even touch on reality TV a little bit.

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So if you're reality TV fans, this episode's sponsored by uh Survivor.

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David's proselytizing about the Please watch Survivor.

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Do yourself a favor.

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It's it's fantastic.

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Survivor, please send us Survivor as if Survivor is an entity.

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Um I know.

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But anyway, I enjoyed this episode with Josh and uh it was lovely.

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It was nice.

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And David, it's nice to just be back to regular episodes.

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Yeah, good to great to be back.

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Josh Ackerman, thanks for being here.

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Um, Josh, um, we haven't always done origin stories lately, um, but

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I am curious about yours.

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Um, either in terms of in what order you came across evolution versus

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the subfield of behavioral science you apply evolution to.

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Which one came first?

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Yeah.

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Well, thanks for thanks for having me.

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And um in turn, I think evolution came first.

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I was one of those kids in high school that was reading like Stephen J.

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Gould books, uh, those kind of things.

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I think really was one of the places that got me interested in just evolution as a concept.

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Um, but it it wasn't necessarily something that I, you know, knew what to do with, at least

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in terms of my um professional trajectory.

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Uh, but in college, I was undecided about what I was you

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know gonna do.

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And so I was taking uh psychology courses.

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I was also taking uh uh biological anthropology courses.

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And that's what really I think became that starting point

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for integrating kind of evolution and behavior.

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I took a course, and there really was one course that I think started it.

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It was a course on sociobiology, which I don't think was all that common in terms of like

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course offerings at a lot of places at the time.

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But it was taught by Carl van Scheik, who was

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uh he has done a lot of work i think if i remember correctly with orangutans and looking at

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the evolution of behavior but it was really it was non-human behavior and so but at the

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same time it was really clear how this would start to apply to people and um

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so that's what really got me interested in like oh I like psychology.

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I like evolution.

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And so I was still undecided.

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Should I do some kind of primatology work or should I do people?

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But uh I think for many reasons people want out.

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Yeah, um, makes sense.

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Uh did you find, do you know what what about the class you that you found interesting?

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I think it was the uh it was it was several things but I think uh one of

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it was just I mean evolution it evolution is just a fun idea uh in a lot of

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ways and it is so um universal in its

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application I think that it really was uh like sort of a lens through which to see not

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just a particular type of behavior but any aspect of what it means to be human.

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As well as having these real tools to use.

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So a lot of the sub theories that, you know, were sort of classic ones that were discussed,

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like inclusive fitness theory and so on, were things like, oh, I can really see how this is

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directly applied to non humans, but also human behavior.

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And so I think it was a sort of a combination of just sort of loving the

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biological world in general, but having a framework to organize all of that

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into something coherent um with these with these tools that sort of show you where to

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go with this kind of thing.

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And it was, I don't know, it's sort of one of these it's a big picture theory.

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And it, you know, think about like how what what it means to be alive in the universe.

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And so you've got these different sort of major uh big perspectives on how you

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want to do that and you know in different fields, but in in behavior and biology, I think

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it's evolution.

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And so um it was just exciting.

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Yeah.

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I'm I'm curious what both of you think about this.

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And this is sort of fast forwarding to in your both of your experiences.

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Um and Josh, we should start with you.

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Um, but uh I I wonder, do you think that there's individual differences in how much people

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like principles?

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Uh, in the sense of like you're describing like you're really attracted to principle.

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I think we're all here because of that.

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And anecdotally, I don't even know if I think this, but I will say it out loud as a

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hypothesis.

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There seems to be an individual difference where some people don't like principles because

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it sort of detracts from looking clever, um, or sort of being

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having unique knowledge.

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And there are aspects of human life that that makes sense, right?

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Like sort of it's a fashion um dynamic.

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Um, I don't know what do you guys think that that happens where some people dislike

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principles because of that, or am I reading into it too much?

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Um, yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, uh, there probably is.

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I think that there's, you know, I guess principles can uh what what's ringing in my head is

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this um common refrain that you sometimes hear from people about like

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removing the mystery from uh from experience by applying

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principles, right?

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And so I think that if that's the take that you have, then I mean maybe it is an individual

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difference that you just you don't want to know the details about a lot of things and so

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but um on the other side it's just like well how do we actually grapple with these things

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uh I think is I would hope maybe it's not maybe it's not universal

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but I would hope is really just sort of an embedded fundamental part of like a scientific

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mindset.

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Yeah well put yeah Yeah, it's sort of like individual differences and whether you want the

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magic trick to be explained at a magic show.

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I mean I mean me personally, I always like deeply want to know how the trick is pulled off.

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And like it's it's hard for me to enjoy a magic show because I'm just so curious about how

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they pulled off the trick.

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Um and I think some people really just don't want to know it.

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It just ruins the whole show if they if they know how the how the trick works.

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Um and I think there might be something similar when it comes to explaining

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psychological phenomena that it sort of demystifies the

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phenomenon.

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Um I've had that reaction to my work sometimes, but particularly with humor.

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Like when I explain sort of like the mundane, you know, uh game theoretic problem that that

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hu the sense of humor evolved to solve, it sort of demystifies humor uh um in a way

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that uh is kind of unsatisfying for some people.

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Um that that probably is an individual difference variable.

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I don't know.

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If you have to explain the joke, then it's uh no that's true.

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That that's true, yeah.

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But if you have to explain why why jokes exist at all, you know, they could also have have

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have a different effect.

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It's kind of it's funny because it misunderstands the point of a joke, right?

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Which is your point, David.

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Yes, exactly.

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The theory explains why it's sort of funny.

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Yeah.

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Um I wonder there must be I I'm sure there's work on I mean, I know there's individual

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differences on curiosity.

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Um, but I wonder I like this idea of uh uh Joshua this idea of

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um explaining something taking taking it as as sort of deflationary and tr

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understanding it that way.

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I would hope there's work on that as an individual difference as it would be worth looking.

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Um I'm curious I'm curious to see if that's part of the curiosity literature.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.

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for me uh it's almost like a kind of anger when something doesn't make sense.

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It's like I'm like frustrated.

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I'm like, no, it has to make sense.

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That doesn't make sense.

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Yeah, you can't tell me.

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Yeah, you're you're it's a secret.

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Yeah.

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It's sort of like I know, yeah, some people I know they're like it's angry because it's

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like it's keeping something away from you.

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It's like keeping it's uh it's a magician.

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Um yeah.

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Uh maybe this need for uncertainty would be one of the individual differences that is

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that's there.

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Although I was thinking when you're talking about this, I I don't necessarily believe that

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understanding you know how something works removes the I'm gonna say mystery, I don't know

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if that's the right word, but the excitement about it.

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Yeah.

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Uh and you know I also this is I guess I'm just I

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essentially was a nerd as a kid, but I was also into magic.

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And uh I I think that understanding that there is a solution to how this works

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isn't necessarily the same thing as wanting to know the solution.

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So I didn't always want to know the solution to magic, but I got that there was a practical

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way of doing it.

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Right.

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And so I think even when I understand aspects of principles or theories,

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whatever it is, it doesn't take away much like people often assume, it doesn't take away

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from that.

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Um that I guess the mystery of like how it came to be in the first place, what

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it means in the bigger picture, those kind of things.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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For me at least, like when I learned about how my visual system worked, it was more amazing

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because I was like, I can't believe that all those little doohickeys are all summing up to

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this thing I'm doing.

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And that seems even more incredible than just the thing I'm seeing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So PSA kids, don't um don't think that science explains away things.

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But yeah, it is an individual thing.

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Okay.

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Anyway, so that that was great.

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Um uh you study, roughly speaking, um, illness.

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Uh or is that how would you characterize uh yeah, maybe that's completely the wrong way to

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no, I don't think that's wrong.

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Yeah yeah.

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Um I think that the major it wasn't always like this.

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I took a lot sort of a winding route to get to this uh topic area, But um I

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would say I'm interested in the role of infection in our psychology.

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Right.

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So illness can be broader, and there's a lot of overlap, I think, between infection and

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non-infection, but specifically how infection plays a role and uh

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who we are, sort of as what what it means to be human, is very much grounded in the history

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of infection uh and how we think these days and how we manage uh the

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particular threats and opportunities that come along with infection.

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Yeah.

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No, it's it's uh a particularly important point reminds me of the episode we had with Dan

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Conroy Beam about how one of the most widely accepted theories for why we sexually

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reproduce at all as opposed to clonally reproducing is because of the risk of infection of

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pathogens just constantly evolving to hack our biological machinery and

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the need to throw out a lot of variation to make it harder for the pathogens to keep up

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with.

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So you know one of the most basic aspects of who we are as a species, the the fact that we

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have men and women and reproduce sexually, like that itself derives ultimately from the

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threat of pathogen.

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So it really is, really does lie at the at the foundations of who we are.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I think it's true in our history, and it's true even in our current day-to-day life,

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in a sense.

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Um, there's this fact that I like to throw out with uh with evolutionary psych courses, um,

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where essentially if you just think about yourself right here sitting right now on

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this podcast, if you were to count up all the cells in your body, more than half of those

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are bacteria right now.

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So you're actually more bacteria than human, at least by number of cells in your body,

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which is suggesting that there's a very, and it's maybe not what we would call infection

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necessarily, but it is still the agents of infection are there, present at all times inside

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us.

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Yeah, we talked to um uh Catherine White Whiteson about um uh the microbiome too

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which is mind blowing that was a great great episode yeah cool oh thanks yeah we'll pay you

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later um you you mentioned that the what it means to be human is is is

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is really driven by this can you unpack that because that sounds very intriguing.

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Uh what do you mean by that?

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Yeah um I mean essentially what at least the starting point is what David was

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was talking about.

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So this idea that much of how our physical form is set up, but also our

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behavioral tendencies are a response to the very, very long history of

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perfection.

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Right.

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So thinking everything about things like um yeah, the mating behaviors that we

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show, um, the fact that we have uh uh live births

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is is related to infection.

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Um so I think it's something like that.

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I mean, there's an important theory, I think, around the placenta being a response to, or

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actually a both a response to infection, but also the the result of a particular infection.

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Um, and so those in combination with a lot of the I'm

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particularly interested in the social behavior, the ways in which people navigate various

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types of social behaviors and various instances of sociality as a sort of in

00:15:53.520 --> 00:15:56.800
terms of the trade-offs that people have to make with infection.

00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:02.160
And so I think that although it's not something that is top of mind for many people in

00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:06.880
day-to-day life, I think that it is something that is always either lurking beneath the

00:16:06.880 --> 00:16:11.470
surface, or for some of us that are a little bit more germophobic.

00:16:11.790 --> 00:16:17.150
Um, it's a constant issue to navigate through our through our lives because every instance

00:16:17.150 --> 00:16:22.990
of interaction, whether it's with another person, um, some type of food or

00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:28.910
object, uh, is has the potential to create this kind of uh problem for us.

00:16:29.070 --> 00:16:31.550
And so it's it's just always there.

00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:32.480
Interesting.

00:16:32.560 --> 00:16:38.000
So it's kind of like gravity where it's a part of the design baked into the

00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:38.880
phenotype.

00:16:39.040 --> 00:16:44.720
But because gravity is constant, I mean, we we think about it, but we don't usually we

00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:48.400
think about like what objects are falling or could something fall in the same way, like

00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:49.360
could I get sick?

00:16:49.520 --> 00:16:52.640
But the fact of pathogens is invariable.

00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.680
So we it just sort of cancels out and we don't really think about it.

00:16:55.920 --> 00:16:57.520
Yeah, I think that's a great analogy, right?

00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:03.390
It's something that's always affecting us, but it only sometimes comes to top of mind, you

00:17:03.390 --> 00:17:03.550
know.

00:17:03.710 --> 00:17:07.070
Uh maybe not often enough sometimes.

00:17:07.390 --> 00:17:07.470
Yeah.

00:17:07.710 --> 00:17:13.470
So it's an intellect interesting intellectual exercise aided presumably by thinking from an

00:17:13.470 --> 00:17:19.230
evolutionary perspective of how is our psychology shaped, given that this

00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:23.390
is really strong selection pressure, but at the same time there's instinct blindness

00:17:23.550 --> 00:17:28.840
because it's not maybe, I don't know, what what a psychology book 50 years ago did it have

00:17:28.840 --> 00:17:30.360
much much about infection?

00:17:30.520 --> 00:17:31.400
Probably not.

00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:32.600
I don't I don't know actually.

00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:38.200
I mean I think even today, most psychology books would have nothing about infection in

00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:42.920
them, um, unless they're taking this kind of either biological or evolutionary angle to

00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:43.240
them.

00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:44.040
Um, yeah.

00:17:44.120 --> 00:17:48.650
I mean, I I just gave a talk to some people and they were like, oh, this is so interesting.

00:17:48.730 --> 00:17:50.330
It's stuff you would never think about.

00:17:50.570 --> 00:17:53.610
Like, well, we should be thinking about these kinds of things.

00:17:53.930 --> 00:17:54.010
Yeah.

00:17:54.170 --> 00:17:58.490
It reminds me of Annie Wirts's like plants where it's just like it's so foundational.

00:17:58.570 --> 00:18:02.090
It's like poison versus food, you know, like infection.

00:18:02.330 --> 00:18:03.610
So many people die.

00:18:03.770 --> 00:18:06.090
So many of our ancestors died from infection.

00:18:06.330 --> 00:18:10.490
We're very lucky uh to to not to take that for granted.

00:18:10.570 --> 00:18:15.600
And like we're I think we're like 1.5 point five or point seven five generation of taking

00:18:15.600 --> 00:18:18.240
that for granted and it's already biting us.

00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:23.520
Taking it for granted is already we're we're we're quickly eroding that taking for granted

00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:23.840
issue.

00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.720
Um where like outbreak childhood diseases outbreaks.

00:18:26.800 --> 00:18:31.920
But yeah but yeah, so I mean it's really it's it's it's funny um to just interject that um

00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:34.960
people are like, Oh yeah, that's that's what a novelty, right?

00:18:35.120 --> 00:18:37.920
Uh yeah, exactly.

00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:42.910
Uh there's this it's not really evolutionary, I guess, but just essentially the taking it

00:18:42.910 --> 00:18:43.550
for granted, right?

00:18:43.630 --> 00:18:48.030
So if you look at the places that are showing the biggest spikes in vaccine hesitancy, so

00:18:48.190 --> 00:18:51.870
people who are, you know, not as interested in getting vaccinated, it's the places where

00:18:51.870 --> 00:18:53.630
vaccines have been the most effective.

00:18:53.870 --> 00:18:56.830
And you're just not, you just don't have the constant exposure.

00:18:56.910 --> 00:19:00.830
So you don't think that you need to worry about things like vaccines.

00:19:00.990 --> 00:19:06.000
Um, so yeah, that's uh definitely not top of mind for a lot of people.

00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:10.480
But yeah, I mean, I think that's yeah, one of the things that I I thought was the most

00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:15.120
interesting about an evolutionary perspective with psychology is that you do have to kind

00:19:15.120 --> 00:19:21.120
of back away sometimes from the most complex kinds of thought patterns or behaviors that

00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:24.480
people you know might have been studying for a long time and really get down to the the

00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:30.480
core of what people what what is what are the key affordances or motivations or

00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.520
or uh inputs that are really out there.

00:19:33.770 --> 00:19:34.090
Hmm.

00:19:34.810 --> 00:19:40.570
Do you think the um our our infection or pathogen psychology could perversely

00:19:40.650 --> 00:19:43.850
play a role in driving vaccine skepticism?

00:19:44.090 --> 00:19:49.930
And that there is something kind of scary about stabbing yourself and putting a

00:19:49.930 --> 00:19:55.530
foreign substance into your body, you know, based on you know faith that the person who's

00:19:55.530 --> 00:20:00.170
telling you to do this has your best interests at heart, uh and and knowing that the

00:20:00.170 --> 00:20:03.740
substance you're putting in your body is itself a a disease.

00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:08.940
Like it it seems like, you know, um uh you know people often talk about vaccine skeptics as

00:20:09.020 --> 00:20:13.980
you know being you know gullible or un unintelligent or something but it in many cases like

00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:18.460
the uh it is more counterintuitive to take the vaccine.

00:20:18.620 --> 00:20:23.020
It is it is uh it's kind of hard to wrap your head around like I feel like that's more

00:20:23.020 --> 00:20:27.020
psychologically mysterious is why so many people go along with vaccines than why so many

00:20:27.020 --> 00:20:28.380
people are are resistant to them.

00:20:29.020 --> 00:20:34.770
Because it takes a lot of you know uh overriding uh uh of your instincts of

00:20:34.930 --> 00:20:40.850
of what is you know a good idea absolutely i mean uh i think it might have been josh tiber

00:20:41.090 --> 00:20:47.090
that's done some work on this idea of um what is i think in the field called body envelope

00:20:47.090 --> 00:20:52.930
violations uh yeah so the idea of like yeah stabbing yourself creating an open wound

00:20:53.330 --> 00:20:56.930
uh to protect yourself not not the most um

00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:05.320
And I don't know that I would be interested to know.

00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:10.520
I don't think that most of the people who are hesitant about vaccines are really thinking

00:21:10.520 --> 00:21:16.440
deeply about the idea that they're getting injected with bacteria or virus of some sort,

00:21:16.840 --> 00:21:17.880
even if it's inert.

00:21:18.520 --> 00:21:23.320
I think it's probably more the superficial, either don't want the needle, maybe it's

00:21:23.320 --> 00:21:28.750
something about the information that they're receiving around these things, whether it's

00:21:28.750 --> 00:21:34.750
historically from how certain parties have used vaccines and other kinds of injections in

00:21:34.750 --> 00:21:39.790
the past, to you know, the messaging that's out there today around

00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:47.310
what vaccines mean, how what role they play in people's group identities, and so on.

00:21:47.950 --> 00:21:53.860
But certainly the sensory experience of it is really the

00:21:53.860 --> 00:21:56.900
opposite of what you would to help protect yourself.

00:21:57.220 --> 00:21:59.220
It certainly makes it easier for a bunch of people.

00:21:59.300 --> 00:22:02.900
Like if you got up on a soapbox and said, Hey, you know this thing where we all have to go

00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:04.740
through this painful thing at the doctor's office?

00:22:04.820 --> 00:22:08.180
Let's not do that anymore, versus like, hey, let's not eat candy anymore.

00:22:08.260 --> 00:22:12.100
You know, like one of those things is going to be easier to get people on board with on if

00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:13.780
they're not like burying their kids, right?

00:22:13.860 --> 00:22:18.020
Um because they're they died from some disease, which was happening, you know, two

00:22:18.020 --> 00:22:18.740
generations ago.

00:22:19.090 --> 00:22:21.570
Yeah, it makes me think about most places, many places.

00:22:22.130 --> 00:22:22.770
Yeah, exactly.

00:22:22.850 --> 00:22:28.690
It makes me think about that whether there is a uh correlation with this kind of

00:22:28.690 --> 00:22:33.730
hesitancy around something like vaccines or other types of injections.

00:22:34.050 --> 00:22:40.050
And this tendency towards towards wanting to, like if you're a parent, I guess,

00:22:40.290 --> 00:22:46.050
not expose your children to any type of hardship, despite the fact that those kinds of

00:22:46.050 --> 00:22:51.760
experiences can produce better outcomes where our minds and our bodies are

00:22:51.760 --> 00:22:57.040
designed to, in some sense, expect some of those kinds of experiences.

00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:01.280
And when you don't trigger them, then you might have problematic downstream outcomes.

00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:07.360
I wonder how much there is that kind of sense that it's really about removing

00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:08.880
all difficulty.

00:23:09.350 --> 00:23:10.070
That's interesting.

00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:10.390
Yeah.

00:23:10.470 --> 00:23:14.950
I also I would love to have somebody, and again, maybe I I haven't looked this up.

00:23:15.110 --> 00:23:19.030
I would, I would, I would love to have a cultural evolution person collaborate with like a

00:23:19.030 --> 00:23:24.550
developmental psychologist on this because the idea that you should um protect your kids

00:23:24.550 --> 00:23:27.510
from difficulty, I think Josh, that's like spot on.

00:23:27.670 --> 00:23:29.350
But it's clearly not universal.

00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:33.270
I mean, even German, Germany is very different than the US in that respect, and

00:23:33.270 --> 00:23:39.040
hunter-gatherer, like the the um uh Akka kids, for example, kind of, you know,

00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:43.920
like famously are very self-sufficient, you know, or you know, Schwar kids, you know,

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.160
they're like using machetes and things like that.

00:23:46.320 --> 00:23:49.440
Um, you know, we talked to Shinalu Levy about, you know, they're keeping an eye on the

00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.960
kids, the toddlers using the machete, but they're and it's not, you know, but they're still

00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:54.160
using a machete, you know.

00:23:54.320 --> 00:23:59.920
Um, but this idea, I wonder if it's just this thing of if there's a market for

00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:06.130
precaution and um combined with other things, you can

00:24:06.130 --> 00:24:11.810
just imagine this thing of there's always this appetite for easier

00:24:11.810 --> 00:24:14.770
things um or protective things for your kids.

00:24:14.930 --> 00:24:20.930
And it just creates this sort of bad dynamic where you um you overprotect yourself

00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:22.850
and kids from difficulty.

00:24:22.930 --> 00:24:23.410
Yeah.

00:24:23.730 --> 00:24:24.050
Yeah.

00:24:24.210 --> 00:24:27.170
Um to the detriment of their well-being sometimes.

00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:27.560
Yeah.

00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:28.120
Yeah.

00:24:28.280 --> 00:24:29.560
I mean it would be interesting to see.

00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:34.440
I mean, I uh it's probably a very complicated phenomenon, but I bet one factor is just the

00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:36.440
total fertility rate of the population.

00:24:36.520 --> 00:24:40.440
Like if you have a smaller number of kids, you're gonna be more precious about each

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:42.760
individual kid and try to minimize the risk.

00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:47.320
But if you have a lot of kids, then your your fitness interests are more distributed and

00:24:47.320 --> 00:24:52.370
you could be you could afford to be a little more risk prone uh uh in evolutionary terms

00:24:52.450 --> 00:24:56.450
but if your all of your fitness is bound up with one kid or two kids, like you really need

00:24:56.450 --> 00:25:01.410
to make sure that nothing bad happens to them because you know I don't know.

00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:07.090
Yeah that's also uh there's also a thing of like um if the kids get hurt is it going to be

00:25:07.090 --> 00:25:12.140
catastrophic so like just US versus Germany like I I'm much more worried about getting hurt

00:25:12.300 --> 00:25:15.260
just because there's like, you know, health insurance is worse here.

00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:20.220
So um I'm sure that plays a part too, although that doesn't explain the hunter-gatherer

00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:20.380
thing.

00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:25.820
But I guess, David, the point would be then you're you've got multiple irons in the fire,

00:25:25.900 --> 00:25:27.980
as it were, in terms of the next generation.

00:25:28.060 --> 00:25:28.540
Yeah.

00:25:28.860 --> 00:25:29.020
Yeah.

00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:34.670
And I think the the culture evolution piece might be useful in thinking about whether

00:25:35.150 --> 00:25:40.910
some of this precautionary tendencies is forecasting potential blame

00:25:40.910 --> 00:25:45.790
that people might um might expect that if uh you know somebody gets your kid gets hurt,

00:25:45.870 --> 00:25:46.750
it's gonna come back to you.

00:25:47.550 --> 00:25:50.030
You are the bad parent, uh essentially.

00:25:50.190 --> 00:25:52.670
And so anything you can do to ward that off.

00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:55.470
Yeah, or like legal repercussions.

00:25:55.630 --> 00:25:58.430
I also think, you know, like just the structure of the society, right?

00:25:58.590 --> 00:26:04.500
Like where if you're um yeah, if you have to be defensive, um, and you know, or like even

00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:05.220
as a school, right?

00:26:05.300 --> 00:26:08.740
Like if where you're worried you're gonna get sued, it just selects for an institution that

00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:12.180
isn't like, well, what's the way we're gonna expose most kids to good risk?

00:26:12.340 --> 00:26:16.820
It's what's the way we're gonna keep all kids as safe as possible so the one kid doesn't

00:26:16.820 --> 00:26:18.820
sue, you know, the one family doesn't sue us.

00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:19.060
Yeah.

00:26:19.300 --> 00:26:19.380
Yeah.

00:26:19.540 --> 00:26:21.060
How are we gonna reduce our own risk?

00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:22.260
Yeah, exactly.

00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:22.900
Exactly.

00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:23.780
Yeah, yeah.

00:26:23.860 --> 00:26:27.730
No, that's that would be a really great area for there's just all these unintended

00:26:27.730 --> 00:26:28.290
consequences.

00:26:28.770 --> 00:26:31.570
Really this the a lot of this is about risk, as you just put.

00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:35.170
Like I think that's really putting the the the heart at the heart of it.

00:26:35.250 --> 00:26:40.050
It's really uh strategies for uh guarding against different risks.

00:26:40.370 --> 00:26:40.690
Yeah.

00:26:40.850 --> 00:26:41.490
Yeah.

00:26:42.130 --> 00:26:43.250
Interesting stuff.

00:26:43.650 --> 00:26:48.770
So you you I mean, speaking of how different features of the ecology might affect our this

00:26:48.850 --> 00:26:50.450
this parental overprotectiveness.

00:26:50.530 --> 00:26:55.320
I know you've done a lot of work on how different features of people's environments might

00:26:55.320 --> 00:26:56.680
affect their decision making.

00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:58.760
We've just talked about pathogens.

00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:05.080
What are some of the other ecological features that might push me to behave in a

00:27:05.080 --> 00:27:08.280
different way or make different decisions for myself or for my family?

00:27:08.760 --> 00:27:11.960
Yeah, I mean, some of them still relate to pathogen risk in some sense.

00:27:12.120 --> 00:27:15.240
So something like population density is a big one.

00:27:15.320 --> 00:27:20.920
And a lot of these are I'm I'm drawing to some extent on work from a former

00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:26.070
postdoc of mine, Oliver Singh, who has done a lot of work like mapping some of the

00:27:26.070 --> 00:27:31.270
dimensions that are common in behavioral ecology work onto human ecology work, essentially.

00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:33.510
So population density being one of those.

00:27:33.670 --> 00:27:38.630
So if you live in these places where there's just a lot of people around, that does present

00:27:38.630 --> 00:27:43.190
an increased chance of infection transmission, pathogen transmission, but also a lot of

00:27:43.190 --> 00:27:48.200
other things in terms of competition for resources and what you have to do to navigate

00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:48.520
that.

00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:55.160
Another dimension that I've done probably more work on has to do with the sex ratio of

00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:56.280
the environment.

00:27:56.760 --> 00:28:02.200
So this is something that's widely known to have an effect, even at small scale

00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:03.880
increments of difference.

00:28:04.840 --> 00:28:10.280
And so, yeah, if the population or at least the local population that you're exposed to is

00:28:10.490 --> 00:28:15.930
shifted or biased in one direction or the other in terms of women versus men, that has an

00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:20.490
impact on a variety of things that people think about and do, behave.

00:28:20.810 --> 00:28:26.810
So again, things related to, in some sense, resource competition, but at the heart

00:28:26.810 --> 00:28:32.640
of it is probably some connection to mating opportunities,

00:28:32.800 --> 00:28:36.560
or at least people's forecasted mating opportunities.

00:28:37.360 --> 00:28:43.040
And so yeah, so sex ratio is one where we've seen a wide

00:28:43.040 --> 00:28:48.240
variety of effects, everything from things related to changes in aggression or associations

00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:53.280
with aggression to decision making around risk again.

00:28:53.520 --> 00:28:59.450
So how much people are wanting to essentially uh be cautious about the kinds of

00:28:59.450 --> 00:29:00.490
decisions that they're making.

00:29:00.650 --> 00:29:04.410
We've looked at that often in sort of financial decisions, but I think it probably spreads

00:29:04.410 --> 00:29:06.090
to other kinds of decisions.

00:29:06.250 --> 00:29:08.730
Um, versus kind of going all in.

00:29:08.970 --> 00:29:14.730
Uh, and these kind of patterns are things that we see again in non-human animals just as

00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:17.690
much as we see them in human animal uh humans.

00:29:17.850 --> 00:29:23.020
Uh, and so um those are probably some of the ones that we've looked the most at.

00:29:23.580 --> 00:29:27.820
But there's there's others like mortality risk, how dangerous is the environment that

00:29:27.820 --> 00:29:31.420
you're in, how much are people being aggressive towards each other?

00:29:34.060 --> 00:29:35.500
It's all that's coming to mind right now.

00:29:35.820 --> 00:29:35.980
Yeah.

00:29:36.060 --> 00:29:40.460
The the uh riskiness, can you unpack what the direction is?

00:29:40.620 --> 00:29:44.060
Is this with so unmated men acting risk?

00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:46.060
What can you unpack what the result is?

00:29:46.300 --> 00:29:46.700
Yeah.

00:29:46.940 --> 00:29:52.450
So um The influence of some of these

00:29:53.010 --> 00:29:58.130
uh dimensional factors is not always simple.

00:29:58.370 --> 00:30:04.290
So it does we we sort of see different kinds of effects depending upon the um

00:30:04.450 --> 00:30:07.890
the type of question that you're looking at, but also the the sample that you're looking

00:30:07.890 --> 00:30:08.050
at.

00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:12.450
So sometimes we see, for instance, sex ratio effects on a whole population, sometimes it's

00:30:12.450 --> 00:30:14.450
only on, like, for instance, males.

00:30:14.770 --> 00:30:20.740
Um, But yeah, so if you have a male skewed uh population

00:30:21.060 --> 00:30:26.580
where there's more men than women, that means, you know, from the point of view of uh

00:30:26.580 --> 00:30:31.300
mating opportunities, it reduces the number of potential opportunities for any given man,

00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:32.980
you know, all else equal.

00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:38.980
Um, and so that can produce different outcomes like um a

00:30:39.300 --> 00:30:45.070
desire to essentially show off more, so to be competitive with other

00:30:45.070 --> 00:30:48.030
men, so to stand out from the crowd.

00:30:48.430 --> 00:30:53.710
It can lead to things like feeling like, okay, well, if I don't have uh

00:30:54.430 --> 00:30:59.150
strong possibility of finding a partner, and I don't know that a lot of this is especially

00:30:59.150 --> 00:31:04.780
top of mind, but this is the logic anyway, um, That if you don't have a strong opportunity,

00:31:04.860 --> 00:31:07.740
well, you might need to really break out.

00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:11.260
And so what that means is taking more risks.

00:31:11.580 --> 00:31:17.340
And so doing things like we sometimes are doing studies where we're looking at financial

00:31:17.340 --> 00:31:22.300
decision making where people were having to make decisions between spreading out their

00:31:22.300 --> 00:31:27.820
investments essentially in finances into different options, which is essentially a form of

00:31:27.820 --> 00:31:33.350
bet hedging, and uh versus uh sort of putting everything into one risky option like where

00:31:33.350 --> 00:31:38.790
the payoff could be big but the risk is high um and in these male skewed environments or at

00:31:38.790 --> 00:31:42.470
least when people were thinking about male skewed environments you see more risk-taking

00:31:42.470 --> 00:31:48.150
behavior so less bet hedging and that's not inconsistent with what we see and again some

00:31:48.150 --> 00:31:52.470
other species like birds will do this in terms of the number of eggs they lay depending on

00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:55.760
the environmental conditions or the sex ratio of that.

00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:02.080
So, but in terms of like larger scale work at like a population or

00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:07.360
a country level uh analysis, there's a lot of interesting work suggesting that when you

00:32:07.360 --> 00:32:12.800
have these kinds of shifts in a sex ratio, you get really wide-scale

00:32:13.520 --> 00:32:16.880
population level uh changes in behavior.

00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:22.240
So things like at least at the mating level, if you have a more female skewed environment,

00:32:22.530 --> 00:32:27.970
that means that it's always about the minority sex having more power on the mating market,

00:32:28.130 --> 00:32:28.370
right?

00:32:28.530 --> 00:32:34.530
And so you see things like less um long-term relationships, people be more open to

00:32:34.770 --> 00:32:36.130
shorter-term relationships.

00:32:36.210 --> 00:32:40.050
Uh, whereas you get the opposite of that when in these male skewed environments, people

00:32:40.050 --> 00:32:42.210
want to stay the relationships if they find them.

00:32:42.370 --> 00:32:46.770
They want to, so men actually do more caregiving of children.

00:32:47.010 --> 00:32:51.560
Um, but there's a lot more people, a lot more men, I guess, left out, and those are the

00:32:51.560 --> 00:32:54.680
ones showing higher degrees of aggression and competition.

00:32:56.280 --> 00:32:56.760
Interesting.

00:32:56.920 --> 00:33:02.760
Uh it reminds me of um some work uh I saw at HBus uh by Pat Barclay on

00:33:02.840 --> 00:33:07.160
on risk taking, yeah, where he uh defines two different types of risk taking.

00:33:07.320 --> 00:33:12.520
One is where you would expect it to be higher among uh people with l in you know bad shape

00:33:12.600 --> 00:33:18.200
or in in poor condition or in dire straits, where they're below some need threshold.

00:33:18.450 --> 00:33:22.370
Um you know, let's say you know they're they're not going to find a partner, they don't

00:33:22.370 --> 00:33:26.530
have adequate resources to survive uh or be healthy.

00:33:26.610 --> 00:33:30.690
Uh and in that case, they just want to do anything possible to get above that need

00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:31.170
threshold.

00:33:31.330 --> 00:33:34.770
And that means they're going to accept riskier uh decisions.

00:33:34.930 --> 00:33:37.490
And then there's the other type of risk taking where it's actually the opposite, where

00:33:37.490 --> 00:33:40.130
you're when you're in particularly good condition and in good shape.

00:33:40.210 --> 00:33:41.810
Uh you have a lot of resources.

00:33:41.890 --> 00:33:45.170
And in that case, the costs of risk taking are just going to be lower because you're going

00:33:45.170 --> 00:33:49.860
to be buffered against the downside, presumably, and you might have greater ability to to

00:33:49.860 --> 00:33:51.140
show off by taking risks.

00:33:51.460 --> 00:33:56.260
If you're wealthier, you can afford to gamble more and show off your wealth.

00:33:56.900 --> 00:34:01.460
And so that predicts, you know, basically the opposite pattern based on, you know, where

00:34:01.780 --> 00:34:03.700
you're doing your best, where you're doing your worst.

00:34:03.940 --> 00:34:08.100
But it seems like if in a in a biased sex ratio environment, you know, both of those

00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:11.930
factors would be at play because you're going to have more, let's say, you know, it's a

00:34:12.010 --> 00:34:14.090
it's a male-biased sex ratio.

00:34:14.250 --> 00:34:18.570
You're gonna have more men who are below that need threshold where they uh it's looking to

00:34:18.570 --> 00:34:22.090
them like they're not gonna be able to find a mate and they're need to take whatever risk

00:34:22.090 --> 00:34:24.730
is necessary to get above that threshold.

00:34:24.890 --> 00:34:29.770
And then at the same time, um, the men who are doing better, they might want to show off

00:34:29.770 --> 00:34:33.530
more uh and and and better outcompete uh other men.

00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:36.650
And so you might have both of those types of risk-taking increase.

00:34:37.050 --> 00:34:37.770
Yeah, exactly.

00:34:37.930 --> 00:34:42.580
I think what you're hitting is this idea that it's you're often when you're thinking about

00:34:42.580 --> 00:34:48.180
this idea of risk as a function of some of these ecological dimensions, you're it's often

00:34:48.180 --> 00:34:51.620
not going to be a linear relationship in terms of how those are connected, right?

00:34:51.700 --> 00:34:56.100
So um, and this will depend on you know other factors that come into play.

00:34:56.180 --> 00:35:02.100
But if it's like something around sex ratio and romantic intentions, well,

00:35:02.260 --> 00:35:06.420
so the people that are likely to want to take those risks are the people who are most

00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:10.010
relevant to romantic encounters in the first place, right?

00:35:10.170 --> 00:35:14.090
So if you are um thinking specifically about age.

00:35:14.250 --> 00:35:19.450
So if you are somebody who's post-puberty and you don't have a lot of um

00:35:19.690 --> 00:35:24.090
resources or like you don't have a lot of uh ways of uh of breaking past that threshold,

00:35:24.170 --> 00:35:26.810
then you might need to take more risks to do that at the same time.

00:35:26.890 --> 00:35:31.450
As you're saying, David, people at the high end also have less less cost of taking those

00:35:31.450 --> 00:35:31.610
risks.

00:35:31.850 --> 00:35:32.490
You might see that.

00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:38.500
But if I'm pre puberty, then uh it might make sense actually to, and

00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:44.580
and I'm still in a in a biased sex ratio where there's a lot more of my same sex in that

00:35:44.580 --> 00:35:45.460
population.

00:35:45.620 --> 00:35:49.780
That does present a problem, but it's a problem where I might approach it differently.

00:35:50.020 --> 00:35:54.580
And so I might, instead of taking risks, I might use that opportunity.

00:35:54.660 --> 00:35:58.870
And again, a lot of I'm not intending to talk about this in a way that is a, you know,

00:35:59.030 --> 00:36:04.710
conscious top of mind processing, but you might essentially uh want to

00:36:04.710 --> 00:36:08.870
build up your resources before you start taking risks, right?

00:36:08.950 --> 00:36:13.590
So you might start acting in a way that improves your own condition, right?

00:36:13.750 --> 00:36:17.910
Who you are, what are the skills that you have to show off, what are the, you know, what

00:36:17.990 --> 00:36:22.460
kind of maybe even what kind of job interests you have in terms of like, are you going to

00:36:22.460 --> 00:36:26.300
go for you know a career that's more exciting and sexy versus not?

00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:30.220
Um and we see those kinds of patterns with other ecological dimensions.

00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:34.540
So I mentioned Oliver Singh before he's got this interesting work on population density

00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:39.180
suggesting that if you were in a really population dense place, that inherently means

00:36:39.180 --> 00:36:41.420
there's competition for resources, right?

00:36:41.740 --> 00:36:47.260
But what the consequence of that can be is essentially leading people to

00:36:47.260 --> 00:36:52.970
act in more, I don't love the slow, fast language of life history

00:36:52.970 --> 00:36:57.850
theory, but essentially in slower ways, where they instead of just going all out, they step

00:36:57.850 --> 00:37:02.650
back and they focus on building up their ability to obtain resources.

00:37:02.810 --> 00:37:08.490
So things like education, things like health and fitness, those kinds of

00:37:08.490 --> 00:37:14.220
things, which are a way of managing risk down the road, but not

00:37:14.220 --> 00:37:18.380
something that you're you would say is like an you're trying to achieve an immediate

00:37:18.380 --> 00:37:20.700
solution to the to the issue.

00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:24.700
So I think you're always going to get these kinds of interesting nonlinear relationships

00:37:24.780 --> 00:37:29.100
depending upon something could be like age or it could be other kinds of factors.

00:37:29.260 --> 00:37:31.500
Um depending on the demand.

00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:34.140
Is that related to sort of like niche?

00:37:34.300 --> 00:37:40.270
I mean we we talked uh also about that like Patrick Durkey about you kind of

00:37:40.270 --> 00:37:42.990
look out in the world and you say, How can I make my living?

00:37:43.150 --> 00:37:46.350
This is also David's point about like choosing a status scheme.

00:37:46.830 --> 00:37:49.310
Um, is that related to this too?

00:37:49.470 --> 00:37:55.390
Where, you know, if you're in a higher density place, there may be more I mean, there's

00:37:55.390 --> 00:38:00.270
some evidence that, you know, with more with more density, essentially social capital.

00:38:00.510 --> 00:38:03.710
If you're in a place with higher social capital, there's more opportunities for different

00:38:03.710 --> 00:38:05.310
ways of making a living, maybe?

00:38:05.390 --> 00:38:05.710
I don't know.

00:38:05.790 --> 00:38:05.950
Yeah.

00:38:06.380 --> 00:38:06.860
I think so.

00:38:06.940 --> 00:38:07.180
Yeah.

00:38:07.340 --> 00:38:13.100
I think um, and I don't know how true this is just under general high levels of

00:38:13.100 --> 00:38:18.220
competition, but I think in these situations, I think you would expect that it's uh you

00:38:18.220 --> 00:38:21.980
could try to go all in and take risks to outcompete the entire crowd, or you could break

00:38:21.980 --> 00:38:27.900
off and create new ditches um and try to specialize essentially uh in ways that

00:38:28.110 --> 00:38:32.270
it's easier, essentially it's the you know, the big fish in the small pond kind of

00:38:32.270 --> 00:38:32.990
approach.

00:38:33.230 --> 00:38:36.990
Um and so yeah, I think that that fits very well with that idea.

00:38:37.390 --> 00:38:38.350
It's not straightforward.

00:38:38.430 --> 00:38:42.190
It's quite complicated as you as you as you put it, because I mean if if your higher

00:38:42.190 --> 00:38:46.350
resource or your higher density, it might also be that externalities of lots of people

00:38:46.350 --> 00:38:48.990
around mean that there's roughly speaking more resources.

00:38:49.070 --> 00:38:51.070
So you don't have to discount the future.

00:38:51.310 --> 00:38:51.550
Right.

00:38:51.720 --> 00:38:56.360
Um, so it is quite, I mean, it's it it as you're saying, it's not top of the mind, but it

00:38:56.360 --> 00:39:02.200
really suggests that there's these very smart systems that are detecting features in the

00:39:02.200 --> 00:39:05.240
world that we're not conscious of and they're having these weird effects.

00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:06.600
And it's it's weird.

00:39:06.680 --> 00:39:11.000
I mean, weird precisely in the sense of it's not intuitive, but it might be things like

00:39:11.160 --> 00:39:12.600
should I discount the future?

00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.000
Is the density such that I should or not?

00:39:15.160 --> 00:39:17.560
Or it affords delaying things.

00:39:17.720 --> 00:39:21.240
I mean, the even what those inputs are is not straightforward.

00:39:21.650 --> 00:39:24.530
Yeah, I mean, I think it is an incredibly complex problem.

00:39:24.770 --> 00:39:30.210
And it's it shows that you know we're not just paying attention to one particular type of

00:39:30.210 --> 00:39:30.690
input.

00:39:30.850 --> 00:39:36.050
But at the same time, there are people that make mistakes uh with these kinds of this this

00:39:36.050 --> 00:39:37.490
complex decision making.

00:39:37.570 --> 00:39:41.490
Um, and they might go off down a path where things are not as beneficial to them.

00:39:41.650 --> 00:39:46.690
Uh, but it I think it just points to this idea that there's this a lot of machinery that's

00:39:46.690 --> 00:39:50.370
involved to have to have to manage all the variety of inputs that are there.

00:39:50.600 --> 00:39:50.920
Yeah.

00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:52.520
David, go ahead.

00:39:52.600 --> 00:39:53.000
Yeah.

00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:58.760
Uh so I'm curious, do you think the mind has systems for

00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:03.720
representing features of the ecology like sex ratio or population density, and that affects

00:40:03.720 --> 00:40:04.200
behavior?

00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:08.600
Or is it another possibility I can think of is that the mind isn't actually representing

00:40:08.600 --> 00:40:10.120
these features of the population.

00:40:10.200 --> 00:40:14.360
It's just looking at, you know, what's best for me, what are my options here right now.

00:40:14.600 --> 00:40:20.410
Like if the sex ratio is male biased, for example, I might not have a representation of

00:40:20.410 --> 00:40:20.890
that fact.

00:40:20.970 --> 00:40:24.250
I might just be aware of the fact that, hey, uh, there aren't a lot of women who are

00:40:24.250 --> 00:40:24.970
interested in me.

00:40:25.050 --> 00:40:26.410
Uh most of the women are taken.

00:40:26.650 --> 00:40:30.650
Uh there are a lot of men out there who are also looking for relationships and they're

00:40:30.650 --> 00:40:31.530
pretty competitive.

00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:33.370
Like, uh, I don't know what I'm gonna do here.

00:40:33.450 --> 00:40:36.250
I better, you know, change my strategy, right?

00:40:36.570 --> 00:40:42.520
Uh and and I can do that without knowing that the sex ratio is male biased, right?

00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:47.720
Um, in the same way, you know, if I'm in a really population-dense area, I don't need to

00:40:47.720 --> 00:40:47.880
know.

00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:51.480
I I my mind doesn't need to calculate the population density of that area.

00:40:51.640 --> 00:40:55.240
I could just be aware of the fact that, hey, there aren't really a lot of opportunities for

00:40:55.240 --> 00:40:57.080
me to stand out or gain status.

00:40:57.240 --> 00:41:01.560
And I have a lot of competitors who also want those limited positions of power or those

00:41:01.560 --> 00:41:03.320
limited jobs or or whatever.

00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:07.960
And uh, I better change the way I behave to really make sure I get those limited

00:41:07.950 --> 00:41:08.750
opportunities.

00:41:08.910 --> 00:41:13.950
And so do you view it as more just looking at at what is best for me in terms of my

00:41:13.950 --> 00:41:17.870
individual situation, or is the mind actually representing these population level

00:41:17.870 --> 00:41:18.670
variables?

00:41:20.350 --> 00:41:24.910
My take on it is probably the former, that it's it's not that people have some kind of

00:41:24.910 --> 00:41:28.110
holistic representation of each of these dimensions.

00:41:28.350 --> 00:41:32.460
I think that would be difficult for in a lot of situations for people to do, right?

00:41:32.620 --> 00:41:38.300
I mean, there are there are maybe some modern uh technologies that help people do this

00:41:38.300 --> 00:41:38.860
today.

00:41:38.940 --> 00:41:44.860
If you're thinking about like an online dating pool, maybe people look up data

00:41:44.860 --> 00:41:46.140
on these kinds of questions.

00:41:46.300 --> 00:41:46.460
Yeah.

00:41:46.620 --> 00:41:50.940
But I think in general, um, it's really what you're exposed to and who you're seeing or

00:41:51.180 --> 00:41:51.980
around you.

00:41:52.300 --> 00:41:56.650
And um yeah, I don't think that it's I think these are just kind of convenient ways of

00:41:56.650 --> 00:41:58.890
carving up the the research space.

00:41:59.050 --> 00:42:03.850
Uh and but really it's about that that exposure that people have and like what their

00:42:03.850 --> 00:42:08.090
experiences are on the ground rather than that that that bigger uh representation.

00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:08.410
Yeah.

00:42:09.450 --> 00:42:13.930
I like that too, because I mean, like in behavioral ecology, so like Hannah Coco had some

00:42:13.930 --> 00:42:18.010
work on like the asymmetric or of attrition where there's decision thresholds for

00:42:18.010 --> 00:42:19.770
continuing or withdrawing from conflict.

00:42:19.850 --> 00:42:25.080
And she had a paper that was amazing where she argued that there might even be tuning of

00:42:25.080 --> 00:42:28.360
that for an organism based on how often it encounters conflict.

00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.520
So it's a really nice example of this middle thing where it's it's sort of it's a

00:42:32.520 --> 00:42:35.720
consequence of the ecology or the population.

00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:41.640
But it's still this thing that David's pointing out, which is still it's sort of the local

00:42:41.640 --> 00:42:45.880
experience of how when I'm just motoring around in the world, how often as a squirrel do I

00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:47.160
see other squirrels fighting?

00:42:47.240 --> 00:42:49.160
How often do squirrels fight me?

00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:55.090
And that is a function of lots of population or or ecological level things,

00:42:55.330 --> 00:42:59.570
but the squirrel can't, you know, fly a drone to find out or like, you know, work with the

00:42:59.570 --> 00:43:03.650
local wildlife biologist to find out like what's the holding capacity of the of the land

00:43:03.650 --> 00:43:04.210
I'm in.

00:43:04.370 --> 00:43:05.970
So it's got to use these on-the-ground cues.

00:43:06.050 --> 00:43:10.850
So I really like that, that even the description of the population density still requires

00:43:10.850 --> 00:43:13.010
this cue-based middle ground.

00:43:13.090 --> 00:43:13.330
Yeah.

00:43:13.730 --> 00:43:13.890
Yeah.

00:43:13.970 --> 00:43:19.500
And I think that if you think about the wide array of uh ecological factors that are really

00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:20.460
existing out there, right?

00:43:20.540 --> 00:43:25.180
It's like, am I as a squirrel or as a human, am I

00:43:25.900 --> 00:43:31.020
understanding like a long history of seasonal rainfall that's going to affect things?

00:43:31.100 --> 00:43:35.980
Or do I have to create, let's say, technologies to track that if I really care about it?

00:43:36.060 --> 00:43:40.540
Is it something that is just in my mind is designed to like track, or is it just whatever

00:43:40.540 --> 00:43:44.110
the, you know, the the current rainfall is is going to predict what I'm going to be doing

00:43:44.110 --> 00:43:45.790
over the next season something like that.

00:43:46.110 --> 00:43:46.350
Yeah.

00:43:46.430 --> 00:43:51.150
Although I will say on the uh counter to what I'm saying also there are like well plants,

00:43:51.230 --> 00:43:56.350
you know, they have the variability in rainfall or season or temperature, they actually

00:43:56.350 --> 00:43:58.670
account for that to make good blooming decisions.

00:43:58.830 --> 00:44:04.680
So they actually do um aggregate um so it's not if you're too I I forget

00:44:04.680 --> 00:44:09.400
the statistical if you basically overfit or if you if you're too sensitive you can make the

00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:13.880
wrong decision and you actually want to aggregate over some noise because you know if it's

00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:19.080
spring maybe there's one warm day and if you just have a simple mechanism you bloom and

00:44:19.080 --> 00:44:20.280
then you freeze the next day.

00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:24.990
But if you average across some of the variability that's a smarter um system.

00:44:25.230 --> 00:44:30.830
So so even plants, for example, have in their uh mRNA the ability to sort of track

00:44:30.830 --> 00:44:32.910
aggregate um temperature, for example.

00:44:33.230 --> 00:44:33.390
Yeah.

00:44:33.470 --> 00:44:37.710
So there's probably this like this this window and which uh or to subtract.

00:44:37.790 --> 00:44:41.390
And when I was talking about birds and and egg laying, they do the same thing in terms of a

00:44:41.470 --> 00:44:47.390
you know, a few seasons in terms of what the egg cache number should be, how you

00:44:47.390 --> 00:44:51.710
know how much to invest in a lot, just a single egg versus a few, those kind of things.

00:44:51.790 --> 00:44:53.470
And but it's a sh it's a short window.

00:44:54.020 --> 00:44:54.340
Yeah.

00:44:54.500 --> 00:44:59.060
Um, for um for sex ratio things, you mentioned they're shorter term things.

00:44:59.140 --> 00:45:03.460
So like, you know, uh anecdotally, like when a bunch of guys get together, typically, I

00:45:03.460 --> 00:45:09.140
mean, depending on, you know, what their what their status schemes are and what their, you

00:45:09.140 --> 00:45:12.020
know, uh uh yeah, did their personal histories are.

00:45:12.180 --> 00:45:16.020
You know, a group of guys getting together versus a mixed sex group versus a bunch of women

00:45:16.020 --> 00:45:19.780
getting together, um, which I've never been because I'm, you know, not a woman, but you

00:45:19.780 --> 00:45:24.570
know, anecdotally or I I've been told, um, you know, typically these things are different.

00:45:24.730 --> 00:45:30.730
Do you think that really short time frame is that a sex ratio thing in the same

00:45:30.730 --> 00:45:30.970
way?

00:45:31.130 --> 00:45:36.170
Or is it just that, you know, the the the kind of way that we affiliate or the status games

00:45:36.170 --> 00:45:42.090
we play or what what counts as status or what's acceptable behavior um just changes real

00:45:42.090 --> 00:45:42.250
time?

00:45:42.410 --> 00:45:43.530
Like how have you thought about that?

00:45:43.610 --> 00:45:46.250
You know, because I'm sure there's studies where like you get five guys in a room and all

00:45:46.250 --> 00:45:47.450
of a sudden they're more competitive.

00:45:47.770 --> 00:45:53.640
Does that is that analogize to like you have a high male ratio population where

00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:57.960
that's just a permanent feature when kids are growing up till the time they're 16, like

00:45:58.040 --> 00:45:59.800
that seems like a different situation.

00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:00.200
Yeah.

00:46:00.600 --> 00:46:01.400
Yeah, I agree.

00:46:01.560 --> 00:46:07.400
And I think in the sort of how uh how this type of

00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:13.080
work has progressed, I think there has been at least up until a point, uh,

00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:18.840
this idea that these really temporary changes are reflective of these longer scale uh

00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:19.800
behaviors.

00:46:20.200 --> 00:46:25.990
And I think, you know, this kind of just relates to a lot of the the uh I guess the

00:46:26.470 --> 00:46:31.350
meta science uh on on priming type work uh and so on.

00:46:31.510 --> 00:46:35.430
And so I think that people are a lot more hesitant to think that, okay, maybe these

00:46:35.430 --> 00:46:36.310
short-term changes.

00:46:36.390 --> 00:46:42.230
And I and I know in the work that that we've done, those short-term effects are much

00:46:42.230 --> 00:46:47.260
less reliable than the ones that are associated with either individual differences or long,

00:46:47.500 --> 00:46:50.540
long time periods of exposure to environments.

00:46:50.780 --> 00:46:56.780
And so whether those are really reflective of something like the the sex ratio of a

00:46:56.780 --> 00:47:00.780
place you've been in for a a substantial period of time, I'm I'm less convinced about that.

00:47:00.860 --> 00:47:04.140
I think it's more these social dynamics that just might pop into play.

00:47:04.460 --> 00:47:10.310
Um and yeah so I would I would definitely not want to go out in the

00:47:10.310 --> 00:47:16.230
limb and say that uh yeah these short term things are um producing the same

00:47:16.230 --> 00:47:18.630
kinds of of calculations as the long term ones.

00:47:18.870 --> 00:47:19.030
Yeah.

00:47:19.190 --> 00:47:19.750
Which makes sense.

00:47:19.830 --> 00:47:22.790
I mean as a uh evolved system that would that would make sense.

00:47:22.950 --> 00:47:27.350
It would make sense to have contingency based on who you're interacting with, right?

00:47:27.510 --> 00:47:32.140
Like just even the individual identity you interact with, if it's somebody different, you

00:47:32.140 --> 00:47:33.660
pull up what you know about them versus them.

00:47:33.740 --> 00:47:34.300
That makes sense.

00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:36.140
That's a real-time quick change.

00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:39.740
But yeah, that would be different than you know, um, the lifetime's experience.

00:47:39.820 --> 00:47:39.900
Yeah.

00:47:40.140 --> 00:47:40.860
Yeah, exactly.

00:47:41.020 --> 00:47:41.340
Exactly.

00:47:41.500 --> 00:47:45.100
And I think, you know, just in terms of like these groups of guys and groups of women that

00:47:45.100 --> 00:47:49.580
get together, um, throw out these social dynamics, whether it's the status competition or

00:47:49.580 --> 00:47:52.540
whether it's just um who else is around, right?

00:47:52.620 --> 00:47:58.270
If you're, you know, if it's just the guys who are by themselves versus guys in the room

00:47:58.270 --> 00:48:00.190
with groups of women, you got different things going on there.

00:48:00.830 --> 00:48:01.470
Yeah, yeah.

00:48:01.550 --> 00:48:03.230
And and beyond sex too, right?

00:48:03.310 --> 00:48:08.590
Like a bunch of like 10-year-olds versus uh 16-year-olds versus 80-year-olds, a bunch of

00:48:08.590 --> 00:48:12.590
academics versus a bunch of firefighters versus a bunch of people sports fans.

00:48:12.670 --> 00:48:13.150
It's all different.

00:48:13.230 --> 00:48:13.710
Yeah, yeah.

00:48:13.870 --> 00:48:14.110
Right.

00:48:14.430 --> 00:48:14.830
Yeah.

00:48:15.070 --> 00:48:15.710
Absolutely.

00:48:15.950 --> 00:48:18.590
Um are you are you a fan of uh reality TV?

00:48:19.470 --> 00:48:20.030
Josh?

00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:23.120
I am not so edit this up.

00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:26.880
I feel like this is a test of an individual difference.

00:48:27.040 --> 00:48:29.520
Um I'm not so much.

00:48:29.680 --> 00:48:32.720
I my wife got me into Survivor.

00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:34.640
So I've watched quite a bit of Survivor.

00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:35.120
Nice.

00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:35.840
I am as well.

00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:36.720
I'm very much into it.

00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:38.640
And so I do like that.

00:48:38.720 --> 00:48:41.440
Um, but most reality TV, not so much.

00:48:41.520 --> 00:48:46.720
Um there was a period of time in in grad school where I was doing some work in the space of

00:48:46.720 --> 00:48:52.110
romantic interactions, including on things like how people use groups of uh of

00:48:52.110 --> 00:48:56.350
same-sex others like friends to navigate some of the romantic goals that are out there.

00:48:56.910 --> 00:49:02.830
And I was doing a little bit of um work interacting with or consulting with

00:49:02.830 --> 00:49:05.150
one of one particular reality TV show.

00:49:05.230 --> 00:49:10.660
But um aside from that, you know It's a little too I think

00:49:10.820 --> 00:49:12.900
scripted, I think, than uh for me.

00:49:13.220 --> 00:49:13.700
That is fair.

00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:14.420
That is fair.

00:49:14.580 --> 00:49:19.700
Uh I do recommend Survivor for everyone listening in terms of just understanding the

00:49:19.700 --> 00:49:20.820
psychology of alliances.

00:49:20.900 --> 00:49:23.060
It's just it's one big alliance game.

00:49:23.140 --> 00:49:28.180
Uh and there's no better source of data for how humans make alliance decisions than just

00:49:28.180 --> 00:49:29.460
watching Survivor.

00:49:29.620 --> 00:49:34.260
Um in my sponsored by who does Survivor's MBC MBC MBC.

00:49:35.750 --> 00:49:37.270
I think there it's on Paramount Plus now.

00:49:37.350 --> 00:49:37.910
It's been a minute.

00:49:38.470 --> 00:49:39.910
I'm so yeah.

00:49:40.230 --> 00:49:40.550
Yeah.

00:49:40.630 --> 00:49:44.310
Uh any but anyway, the reason I brought it up because is because you know the Bachelor or

00:49:44.310 --> 00:49:47.110
the Bachelorette is the most extreme possible sex ratio there is.

00:49:47.190 --> 00:49:50.950
There's one man or one woman and a bunch of different women competing for the man or a

00:49:50.950 --> 00:49:52.630
bunch of different men competing for the women.

00:49:52.870 --> 00:49:58.600
Uh and you might naively expect it to be a bloodbath between all the different uh

00:49:58.680 --> 00:50:00.040
same sex competitors.

00:50:00.200 --> 00:50:04.360
Uh and you know, there is, you know, obviously some some conflict and some bitterness uh in

00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:05.000
every season.

00:50:05.160 --> 00:50:10.440
But what's surprising to me is the deep friendships that form among the same sex

00:50:10.680 --> 00:50:16.040
competitors, despite the fact that they're literally in zero sum competition, uh you know,

00:50:16.200 --> 00:50:17.800
for for the same mate.

00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:23.190
Um and that to me is is surprising and and kind of hard to explain that th you're in this

00:50:23.190 --> 00:50:27.590
intense zero sum competition and yet you have a deep friendship with this person that

00:50:27.590 --> 00:50:29.110
you're competing with.

00:50:29.350 --> 00:50:34.470
Uh and you know, you in some sense you might be heartbroken if you're, you know, let go,

00:50:34.710 --> 00:50:40.310
but you might also be happy for your friend that, you know, they ended up with this person.

00:50:40.870 --> 00:50:43.190
So I I I don't know how to explain that.

00:50:43.270 --> 00:50:44.950
I I find it very interesting.

00:50:45.560 --> 00:50:49.080
Yeah, I it's been a very long time since I've done this.

00:50:49.160 --> 00:50:53.320
But so it was it was the bachelor actually that I was uh working with a little bit about

00:50:53.320 --> 00:50:58.040
this kind of stuff because we were again doing this work on coalitions and friendship

00:50:58.040 --> 00:51:02.680
coalitions and how they navigate how you navigate opposite sex romantic goals uh

00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:03.720
interactions.

00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:06.840
Um, and showing that people were not just competitive, right?

00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:08.520
So they were cooperative with each other.

00:51:08.600 --> 00:51:12.920
Sometimes they play different roles in terms of who is going to be essentially the lead or

00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:15.160
the target of the interaction.

00:51:16.090 --> 00:51:21.930
But it was interesting how, at least from our point of view, how men did it in a certain

00:51:21.930 --> 00:51:26.010
fashion and women did it in another fashion, both of which were complementary to each

00:51:26.010 --> 00:51:26.170
other.

00:51:26.250 --> 00:51:32.090
So it was sort of really directly showing this interface of different kinds of goals

00:51:32.090 --> 00:51:36.090
that each team in a sense was using.

00:51:36.540 --> 00:51:40.620
But we didn't go, I think, into the level of depth you're talking about, uh, David, in

00:51:40.620 --> 00:51:45.740
terms of like how do people then continue to navigate those relationships uh among their

00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:48.220
those people who are part of their coalitions.

00:51:49.420 --> 00:51:54.300
I mean, David, a facile answer would be right, it's like, you know, whether or not you get

00:51:54.300 --> 00:51:59.100
the guy, you know, he might not be a good fit for you, but a friend is worth a lot too,

00:51:59.180 --> 00:52:00.540
yeah, if not more.

00:52:01.180 --> 00:52:02.460
Yeah, totally.

00:52:02.620 --> 00:52:05.010
Um Uh yeah, no, I just I I find that interesting.

00:52:05.250 --> 00:52:06.690
Um yeah.

00:52:06.930 --> 00:52:12.850
Uh so speaking of friendship, I I know you've done a little bit of work on that

00:52:13.410 --> 00:52:14.610
um a little bit.

00:52:14.770 --> 00:52:20.450
Uh is is friendship just a kind of fictive kinship, an extension of kinship

00:52:20.450 --> 00:52:20.930
psychology?

00:52:21.090 --> 00:52:21.890
Is it something more?

00:52:21.970 --> 00:52:23.410
How are you thinking of it?

00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:30.200
uh that's a that's a tough one um so we did a long time ago this was again

00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:36.200
grad school uh have this work where we're trying to make a claim that uh men and women

00:52:36.200 --> 00:52:41.960
treat friendship differently and you might expect given a history of um

00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:47.640
um interaction among people and and individuals moving

00:52:48.330 --> 00:52:54.330
between their sort of home bases and their partners, home base in

00:52:54.330 --> 00:53:00.090
a sense, that you might expect differences in how women and men treat

00:53:00.090 --> 00:53:03.930
friends, uh, how they conceptualize them, how they interact with them.

00:53:04.090 --> 00:53:08.330
Um, and finding that women were essentially thinking about friends a little bit more like

00:53:08.330 --> 00:53:09.690
they were thinking about kin.

00:53:09.850 --> 00:53:15.040
So whether that's fictive kinship, I don't know that they actually think that there's

00:53:15.040 --> 00:53:19.680
probably more examples of men using things like fictive kinship terminology, but at least

00:53:19.680 --> 00:53:25.360
in terms of the actual patterns of um of behavior, I think we found women were doing that

00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:29.600
more with their friends, essentially showing closer types of cooperative behaviors uh with

00:53:29.600 --> 00:53:31.040
friends than men were.

00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:35.520
Whereas men oftentimes in some of these kinds of game type environments were treating

00:53:35.520 --> 00:53:37.040
friends like strangers.

00:53:38.650 --> 00:53:42.810
So that was some of the early, early work we were doing on that.

00:53:43.530 --> 00:53:47.050
I've only kind of sporadically come back to friendship.

00:53:47.450 --> 00:53:52.570
It hasn't really been at the at the heart of things, although I was convinced early on by

00:53:52.570 --> 00:53:57.290
some of the um, I think it was a paper by uh

00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:04.160
martin and margo so martin daily and margot wilson where they were saying um actually they

00:54:04.240 --> 00:54:10.080
i think martin might have brought this up in the podcast he was on uh that uh kinship

00:54:10.080 --> 00:54:16.000
was really an underrepresented uh type of concept

00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:21.970
in human psychology research and so was convinced by that, thinking

00:54:22.050 --> 00:54:24.050
like, we need to have have more of this.

00:54:24.530 --> 00:54:28.930
And so that was part of the motivation of trying to think, okay, how do people think about

00:54:28.930 --> 00:54:30.290
friends and kin?

00:54:30.370 --> 00:54:34.610
And are there is there overlap between these kinds of concepts?

00:54:36.210 --> 00:54:39.810
Do people think of friends as just fictive kin?

00:54:43.060 --> 00:54:44.100
Probably not.

00:54:44.500 --> 00:54:49.060
There's probably a lot of places where that would break down, I think, if people are

00:54:49.060 --> 00:54:49.700
pushed.

00:54:50.180 --> 00:54:56.100
To you know, is it the case that you're really going to be inspiring things like

00:54:56.420 --> 00:54:59.140
incest avoidance mechanisms with friends?

00:54:59.380 --> 00:55:00.420
Probably not.

00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:07.230
But yeah, so I I that's as probably

00:55:07.230 --> 00:55:10.590
as as deep as I can go in answering that particular question.

00:55:10.750 --> 00:55:15.070
Um, but I think more recently we've been thinking about friends in terms of the the other

00:55:15.070 --> 00:55:20.990
kinds of uh dilemmas that they present to people, in terms of the uh both

00:55:20.990 --> 00:55:23.870
the opportunities and the threats that they uh provide to people.

00:55:23.950 --> 00:55:28.350
Because we often don't think about friends at the level of threat, although there's always

00:55:28.430 --> 00:55:34.140
you know competitive interactions that people have and so on but we've married that with

00:55:34.140 --> 00:55:39.580
things like the infection psychology that people are um are really concentrating on and so

00:55:39.580 --> 00:55:42.940
the more people you have that you're engaged with the more there's an infection risk

00:55:42.940 --> 00:55:48.620
possibility there and so we were interested in this question this is with a former grad

00:55:48.620 --> 00:55:53.790
student uh soyan choi who was really interested in this question of do people

00:55:54.110 --> 00:55:59.310
alter or modify their friendship networks as a function of these types of things like

00:55:59.310 --> 00:56:00.190
infection threat?

00:56:00.350 --> 00:56:03.070
And they do apparently.

00:56:04.910 --> 00:56:05.310
Interesting.

00:56:05.390 --> 00:56:09.390
So what what is how are you measuring an an infection threat?

00:56:10.190 --> 00:56:16.030
Um so in that work, it was primarily thinking about individual differences in

00:56:16.030 --> 00:56:17.870
concern around infection.

00:56:17.950 --> 00:56:23.900
And there's all sorts of this is a sort of a whole other uh project area that uh that

00:56:23.900 --> 00:56:26.780
some people in our lab but also other labs are interested in these days.

00:56:26.940 --> 00:56:30.700
How do you measure these kinds of uh these kinds of factors?

00:56:31.020 --> 00:56:36.700
And some of these measures that exist out there have to do with um how

00:56:36.700 --> 00:56:38.540
concerned I actually am about infection.

00:56:38.620 --> 00:56:42.140
Do I pay attention to the idea that I could get sick from other people?

00:56:42.380 --> 00:56:45.190
Others are more superficial in a way.

00:56:45.270 --> 00:56:47.750
That is just do I get grossed out easily?

00:56:47.910 --> 00:56:53.110
They're more having to do with these sensory inputs that have that are in some sense

00:56:53.350 --> 00:56:54.070
icky.

00:56:54.950 --> 00:57:00.710
And so, but these kinds of um these kinds of individual individual differences are what we

00:57:00.710 --> 00:57:06.470
looked at primarily to think about how people then might construct or

00:57:07.140 --> 00:57:12.100
construct a friendship network, or maybe even remove people from their friendship networks.

00:57:12.340 --> 00:57:17.140
So, what is essentially the threshold that we have for who is part of our networks?

00:57:17.300 --> 00:57:22.260
And we were finding things like the people who are most concerned about infection through

00:57:22.260 --> 00:57:27.860
these various measures, they tend to have smaller networks, generally speaking.

00:57:28.020 --> 00:57:32.260
And I think that makes logical sense in terms of just reducing the number of contacts that

00:57:32.260 --> 00:57:32.900
you have.

00:57:33.220 --> 00:57:38.190
Those, that reduction was all happening at the um at the

00:57:39.070 --> 00:57:42.110
form that the layers of the network that were less close.

00:57:42.270 --> 00:57:44.910
So it's not like people had, they still had really close friends.

00:57:45.070 --> 00:57:49.390
They still had best friends to the same degree that people who didn't care about germs did.

00:57:49.550 --> 00:57:55.310
But they were just sort of not engaging as much with people, at least at a frequent

00:57:55.470 --> 00:58:00.910
regular level, with people that were just more distant in their in their environment.

00:58:01.500 --> 00:58:07.500
And that was really interesting, I think, because it could be there's like just sort

00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:13.100
of the one form of logic you could you could ask about that is um it may be that if I

00:58:13.100 --> 00:58:17.020
prioritize infection, of course I'm going to interact with with fewer people and I'm going

00:58:17.020 --> 00:58:18.540
to be fine with that, right?

00:58:18.620 --> 00:58:19.980
Because I'm meeting my goal.

00:58:20.140 --> 00:58:23.820
But it turns out those people who are most concerned about infection who had the smaller

00:58:23.820 --> 00:58:29.210
networks were unhappy with their network, more so than the people who had the larger

00:58:29.210 --> 00:58:32.970
networks, because they weren't getting everything else that a you know somebody might get

00:58:32.970 --> 00:58:33.850
with from their friend.

00:58:34.010 --> 00:58:37.450
They weren't getting enough social support, they weren't getting enough emotional support,

00:58:37.530 --> 00:58:42.490
um, tangible support from like you know, what people are actually doing to help you out.

00:58:42.650 --> 00:58:48.170
And so it really showed the, I guess, the psychological dilemma of this

00:58:48.170 --> 00:58:54.160
trade-off where people couldn't these people who were really concerned about infection

00:58:54.240 --> 00:58:58.800
couldn't necessarily bring themselves to to start incorporating more people in their lives,

00:58:59.520 --> 00:59:05.040
but also to the detriment of all the other stuff that that exists in life.

00:59:06.240 --> 00:59:06.800
That's interesting.

00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:12.960
I mean, uh so you've did you find uh correlations both with disgust sensitivity and with

00:59:13.200 --> 00:59:16.450
uh germophobia, uh for lack of a better term.

00:59:16.610 --> 00:59:21.410
So people who are explicitly trying to avoid disease and people who are just more easily

00:59:21.410 --> 00:59:22.130
grossed out.

00:59:22.290 --> 00:59:25.090
Both of those things are both predicting a smaller social networks?

00:59:25.410 --> 00:59:26.050
We did.

00:59:27.170 --> 00:59:30.930
And one I think was a little bit more reliable.

00:59:31.410 --> 00:59:36.770
We've this might get into the weeds a little too much, but there's the people who are the

00:59:36.770 --> 00:59:41.580
researchers who study a lot of this infection psychology work, however they wanted to label

00:59:41.580 --> 00:59:46.220
that, um, tend to gravitate towards certain measures more than others.

00:59:46.300 --> 00:59:50.140
And but it just depends on who's doing the gravitating.

00:59:50.380 --> 00:59:55.980
Uh, and so we tend to do a little bit more work focusing on things like

00:59:56.220 --> 01:00:02.220
um the uh concerns that people have, the anxieties that are raised from

01:00:02.220 --> 01:00:08.030
uh the possibility of infection, whereas disgust sensitivity, I think, is a little

01:00:08.030 --> 01:00:13.710
bit more of a this kind of like sensory experience of something, there's a trigger that

01:00:13.710 --> 01:00:17.630
just creates this aversive reaction in me.

01:00:17.950 --> 01:00:23.470
And so, uh, which other other researchers tend to focus on a little bit more, but we've

01:00:23.470 --> 01:00:24.350
sometimes married those.

01:00:24.430 --> 01:00:29.070
And so in some of these studies, we had both of these measures, and we found, I think, a

01:00:29.070 --> 01:00:34.030
little bit more reliable uh effects with, in terms of everything I've just been talking

01:00:34.030 --> 01:00:39.380
about, with something like germ aversion or something where it's a bit a little bit more,

01:00:40.020 --> 01:00:45.940
I'm gonna say cognitive in terms of how people are thinking about uh the risk of infection.

01:00:46.100 --> 01:00:50.660
But we still set we still saw the same pattern of effects with discuss sensitivity.

01:00:51.380 --> 01:00:52.020
Interesting.

01:00:52.420 --> 01:00:56.790
And I think like I I I imagine, you know, personal incredulity is not a scientific

01:00:56.790 --> 01:00:57.110
argument.

01:00:57.270 --> 01:00:59.670
I want to wear a t-shirt like that whenever I get a review.

01:00:59.910 --> 01:01:01.430
My personal incredulity is.

01:01:01.510 --> 01:01:07.190
Um, but uh, but let me unpack this because I think people listening might think this, and I

01:01:07.190 --> 01:01:08.790
want to hear what your response to this is.

01:01:08.870 --> 01:01:14.470
So the idea is that the more concerned I am about germs, the more I'm going to

01:01:14.710 --> 01:01:18.630
not extend sort of my zone of frequent interaction with people.

01:01:19.350 --> 01:01:24.230
One one question I think people might have, and one question I have is that

01:01:25.120 --> 01:01:30.960
is it is it that you're restricting how many friends you

01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:36.960
have because you're worried about getting sick, or is it that if you're in a

01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:42.720
bad state for for different reasons, like you're you don't have a lot of um

01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:47.280
resources, you're just I mean different people are just more or less lucky or different

01:01:47.280 --> 01:01:50.560
paths in life, you might just be in a worse state.

01:01:50.640 --> 01:01:55.350
And so consequently you're both more worried about disease because compared to everyone

01:01:55.350 --> 01:01:59.830
else, when I get sick, it hurts me financially, physically more.

01:02:00.950 --> 01:02:06.550
And because of that, I also just have fewer social connections.

01:02:06.790 --> 01:02:12.790
So, in other words, um, it's it's the same point where they go together, but it's kind of

01:02:12.870 --> 01:02:17.030
they they're combined because of the dynamics of the environment, as opposed to the

01:02:17.030 --> 01:02:19.760
psychology is sort of tying them together.

01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:21.200
I'm sure I'm sure you've thought of this.

01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:24.000
I'm just curious like what that what that is or if both are going on.

01:02:24.080 --> 01:02:24.400
Yeah.

01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:27.760
So it correct me if if if I'm characterizing this wrong.

01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:33.040
So the the first one is really about the the role of the individual who's concerned about

01:02:33.040 --> 01:02:33.200
this.

01:02:33.280 --> 01:02:36.560
And the second one is the role of the friends who are like I'm out of here because you're

01:02:36.720 --> 01:02:41.010
there's too much you're you're taking too much from me or asking too much for me.

01:02:41.170 --> 01:02:47.010
Uh one that's one way of putting it or even just that uh if I if I'm a low

01:02:47.170 --> 01:02:52.690
uh I'm gonna just be very like impolitic about this to just put it in like brass tacks

01:02:52.850 --> 01:02:54.050
biological sense.

01:02:54.290 --> 01:03:00.130
If I'm a organism I'm I'm a human agent I have a certain social bargaining power or like

01:03:00.130 --> 01:03:05.970
what I can offer to the world you know and there's variation in that and if mine

01:03:05.970 --> 01:03:11.720
is lower it might mean uh that I have fewer resources to

01:03:11.720 --> 01:03:15.000
deal with problems that come up, including infection.

01:03:15.160 --> 01:03:20.920
But then it's also going to mean that as I just try out to be accepted by the

01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:25.000
social world, the degree to which the social world accepts me is just going to be

01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:25.560
shallower.

01:03:25.720 --> 01:03:27.880
Like so that's the brass tax way of putting it.

01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:28.120
Yeah.

01:03:28.600 --> 01:03:34.600
I think the possibility that somebody who has been chronically worried about infection

01:03:34.600 --> 01:03:40.450
over long periods of time are is going to develop a different set of strategies

01:03:40.610 --> 01:03:44.370
of social interaction, or maybe in some sense, maybe a less

01:03:46.770 --> 01:03:52.610
complex or less uh well designed for

01:03:52.610 --> 01:03:54.690
actual social interaction set of strategies.

01:03:54.930 --> 01:03:56.370
I think that's a really interesting question.

01:03:56.450 --> 01:04:00.940
Um, not one we we've explored, but I think that would I think it would make a lot of sense.

01:04:01.180 --> 01:04:07.100
What the the factor that we were able to identify in a way with this was that it seemed to

01:04:07.100 --> 01:04:12.860
be that the people who are most concerned about infection also had the highest standards

01:04:12.860 --> 01:04:14.060
for their friends.

01:04:14.460 --> 01:04:20.140
So they were wanting people that also prioritized

01:04:20.140 --> 01:04:21.500
concern around infection.

01:04:21.900 --> 01:04:25.900
And so those people who are really concerned it's going to be more top of mind for them

01:04:25.900 --> 01:04:27.340
than somebody who's not concerned, right?

01:04:27.500 --> 01:04:30.670
They're going to be thinking about this at least more regularly.

01:04:30.910 --> 01:04:36.910
And so these standards were essentially a way of maybe

01:04:36.910 --> 01:04:42.750
in inadvertently, but a way of essentially walling off that individual from a lot of

01:04:42.750 --> 01:04:44.830
opportunities, a lot of social opportunities.

01:04:44.990 --> 01:04:45.230
Yeah.

01:04:45.470 --> 01:04:51.060
And so I think it's at least what we found was that's more of that that that individual

01:04:51.060 --> 01:04:52.420
agent was causing something.

01:04:52.740 --> 01:04:53.380
Yeah, no, that's great.

01:04:53.700 --> 01:04:58.980
That would not what you just said would not be predicted by this alternative sort of fewer

01:04:58.980 --> 01:04:59.780
opportunities.

01:05:00.340 --> 01:05:01.380
That's really interesting.

01:05:01.620 --> 01:05:06.820
Is there a is there um do you know what predicts being worried about

01:05:06.820 --> 01:05:07.780
infection?

01:05:08.980 --> 01:05:11.140
Hmm that's a big question.

01:05:11.380 --> 01:05:11.620
Yeah.

01:05:11.780 --> 01:05:17.220
Uh so there's been um some obvious this is an important question.

01:05:17.300 --> 01:05:23.110
There's been some work in this space How

01:05:23.430 --> 01:05:28.790
how reliable I think the data are there, I'm not fully convinced.

01:05:28.950 --> 01:05:31.030
So I'll give you some some examples.

01:05:32.150 --> 01:05:37.670
It does seem to be the case that having a history of infection across development is one of

01:05:37.670 --> 01:05:37.830
these.

01:05:37.910 --> 01:05:39.510
And I think that's that makes a lot of sense.

01:05:39.590 --> 01:05:41.110
That's pretty reasonable, right?

01:05:42.550 --> 01:05:46.150
And so the more you got sick, the more concerned you are about these things.

01:05:46.230 --> 01:05:50.240
And it actually that also predicts getting sick less in the future.

01:05:51.120 --> 01:05:55.520
People have looked at also other kinds of things like, well, what about something a little

01:05:55.520 --> 01:05:56.800
bit more physiological?

01:05:56.880 --> 01:06:02.640
Like maybe it's something around how um robust your physiological immune

01:06:02.640 --> 01:06:03.280
system is.

01:06:03.600 --> 01:06:08.960
And if that is really, and there's people have had these different models of how this could

01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:09.200
work.

01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:10.800
Maybe one is compensatory.

01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:15.890
So if your um If your immune system is compromised for some reason, you're going to be

01:06:15.890 --> 01:06:21.330
really over the top about avoiding sickness cues psychologically.

01:06:21.410 --> 01:06:24.370
Or maybe they just kind of work together in a complementary way.

01:06:25.890 --> 01:06:31.810
My take on that literature is that it is just it's too messy

01:06:31.810 --> 01:06:34.690
to really draw strong conclusions right now.

01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:39.880
And so there was some really interesting initial work on this from people like Dan Fessler

01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:42.040
and Carlos Navaret and some other people like that.

01:06:42.360 --> 01:06:45.320
And then Sarah Hill has done some work in that space too.

01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:51.240
But I think that part of the issue is that the more that psychologists, I think, have

01:06:51.240 --> 01:06:56.810
gotten into studying the physiological immune system, The more I think we

01:06:56.810 --> 01:06:58.810
realize how complicated it is.

01:06:59.370 --> 01:07:04.970
And so it is there's just a lot of noise and a lot of

01:07:04.970 --> 01:07:10.410
unknowns about which particular markers of immune functioning we should be looking at.

01:07:10.970 --> 01:07:14.650
And so it's, yeah, I I think we're

01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:19.600
very early in that process.

01:07:19.680 --> 01:07:20.880
There's still a lot more to be done.

01:07:21.040 --> 01:07:24.400
So I think that's those are some of the things that people have talked about as predicting

01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:26.160
this this kind of stuff.

01:07:26.560 --> 01:07:29.600
But I think there's probably some some other really interesting ones.

01:07:29.680 --> 01:07:32.240
I mean, obviously there's got to be cultural effects on this, right?

01:07:32.400 --> 01:07:37.920
There's just cultural differences in discuss sensitivity based on whatever the norms are

01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:40.160
that are common in those places.

01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:46.250
But yeah, I mean, I think a whole you could have a whole um body of work on

01:07:46.250 --> 01:07:47.370
this this very question.

01:07:47.610 --> 01:07:48.250
Yeah.

01:07:49.290 --> 01:07:52.090
There's something about this literature that confuses me.

01:07:52.330 --> 01:07:55.850
I'm hoping you can maybe clear up this confusion for me.

01:07:56.170 --> 01:08:02.170
So uh the idea is that disgust serves a pathogen avoidance function, and that makes

01:08:02.170 --> 01:08:02.490
sense.

01:08:02.570 --> 01:08:05.050
It explains a lot of data in the discussed literature.

01:08:05.210 --> 01:08:10.060
Um, But then there's also this separate construct that has been developed, which is like

01:08:10.060 --> 01:08:15.900
fear of germs, like how consciously, you know, worried you are about getting sick.

01:08:16.140 --> 01:08:22.140
And disgust and explicit fear of disease are not actually very highly correlated

01:08:22.140 --> 01:08:22.860
with each other.

01:08:23.500 --> 01:08:25.100
They seem to be separate things.

01:08:25.260 --> 01:08:27.660
And also phenomenologically, they feel very different.

01:08:27.740 --> 01:08:31.870
When you're grossed out, that feels very different than being worried about getting sick.

01:08:32.030 --> 01:08:36.350
I mean, during COVID, I wasn't really feeling a lot of disgust or being grossed out by

01:08:36.350 --> 01:08:36.590
things.

01:08:36.750 --> 01:08:38.270
I was just worried about getting COVID.

01:08:38.430 --> 01:08:43.150
And I know Josh Tiber has data showing that disgust didn't really change throughout the

01:08:43.150 --> 01:08:43.630
pandemic.

01:08:43.790 --> 01:08:47.070
It was more of this explicit worrying about disease.

01:08:47.310 --> 01:08:52.830
Um, and so my question would be: why does it seem to be the case that we have these two

01:08:52.830 --> 01:08:58.700
separate systems that are both phenomenologically distinct and

01:08:59.020 --> 01:09:01.740
to some extent take in different types of inputs.

01:09:02.060 --> 01:09:05.100
And yet they serve the same function.

01:09:05.260 --> 01:09:06.860
Why wouldn't we have just one system?

01:09:07.020 --> 01:09:10.300
Why wouldn't disgust just be applied to COVID?

01:09:10.460 --> 01:09:10.620
Right?

01:09:10.780 --> 01:09:13.180
Like why weren't people more grossed out during COVID?

01:09:13.420 --> 01:09:18.460
So why do we seem to have these two systems that serve the same function when we could just

01:09:18.460 --> 01:09:18.860
have one?

01:09:19.180 --> 01:09:23.900
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a it's a critical question, and one that

01:09:25.020 --> 01:09:28.990
I think early on there was some theorizing about this.

01:09:29.150 --> 01:09:31.390
I think there are people who are taking this more seriously now.

01:09:31.470 --> 01:09:33.550
So I have a grad student who's working on something related to this.

01:09:33.630 --> 01:09:38.590
And I know there's some other uh labs that are doing some more trying to sort of pit these

01:09:39.550 --> 01:09:45.070
systems or models against each other and ask what is the what is the reason for this?

01:09:45.230 --> 01:09:50.780
And I think one of the explanations that I think makes a lot of sense

01:09:51.420 --> 01:09:54.140
is from Mark Schaller, who's uh big in the space.

01:09:54.220 --> 01:09:59.340
And he talked about this idea of a differentiation between reactive responses and proactive

01:09:59.340 --> 01:10:00.060
responses.

01:10:00.300 --> 01:10:03.660
And so disgust is a reactive system, right?

01:10:03.820 --> 01:10:07.900
You it's very difficult to get yourself to feel disgust, absent cues.

01:10:08.300 --> 01:10:08.460
Right.

01:10:08.790 --> 01:10:14.710
I can't just, unless I'm thinking about a cue in a really sort of very embodied

01:10:14.710 --> 01:10:17.910
way, then it's going to be really difficult for me to experience disgust.

01:10:18.230 --> 01:10:24.230
But these proactive responses could help to, in some sense, prevent the

01:10:24.230 --> 01:10:29.830
disgust response in the first place, but really help me manage the situations that I engage

01:10:29.830 --> 01:10:35.660
with and the ways in which those various infection type of threats uh that are

01:10:35.660 --> 01:10:41.660
out there might be mitigated when there aren't cues that are relevant to

01:10:41.660 --> 01:10:42.780
the disgust system, right?

01:10:42.940 --> 01:10:48.780
So COVID is a great example because early on, um, there just weren't a lot of

01:10:48.780 --> 01:10:52.140
sensory cues that people were exhibiting that would trigger disgust.

01:10:52.300 --> 01:10:58.300
And so, in fact, if you think about diseases that are often spread um sort

01:10:58.490 --> 01:11:03.610
pre-symptomatically, which is a lot of them, there are no cues at all.

01:11:03.850 --> 01:11:09.450
And so unless you're taking in information from other sources, then you're just leaving

01:11:09.450 --> 01:11:11.130
yourself exposed to that.

01:11:11.370 --> 01:11:16.730
Now that idea brings with it a lot of interesting implications.

01:11:17.050 --> 01:11:22.080
So that more proactive system is likely to have more

01:11:23.760 --> 01:11:26.720
be shaped more by cultural evolutionary forces.

01:11:27.440 --> 01:11:32.640
It's likely to be historically, I would assume historically less old.

01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:38.160
Depending on I think that some of the original, some of the work at least by some of the

01:11:38.160 --> 01:11:42.960
original people in psychology undiscussed, was really grounding that in the uh the the role

01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:46.080
of food, not actually a person to person interactions.

01:11:46.160 --> 01:11:47.360
So how do we avoid certain foods?

01:11:47.520 --> 01:11:48.880
They're going to make us sick.

01:11:49.110 --> 01:11:53.430
Obviously, that's a problem we've faced for for a very long period of time.

01:11:53.670 --> 01:11:59.510
Whereas things like communicable diseases between groups of people were

01:11:59.510 --> 01:12:05.510
likely very rare up until a particular period in our history where we're able to maintain

01:12:05.510 --> 01:12:07.590
denser populations, right?

01:12:07.910 --> 01:12:11.910
Beyond that, we were before that, we were really getting sick from things like foods or

01:12:11.910 --> 01:12:16.550
animal transmission, where there are probably going to be or disgust related cues.

01:12:16.710 --> 01:12:22.100
And so I would say that the, at least my take on it is that this

01:12:22.900 --> 01:12:28.820
precautionary system, the prospective system, is probably more evolutionary novel to

01:12:28.820 --> 01:12:33.300
some extent, but it's still likely to be shaped by these forces.

01:12:33.380 --> 01:12:37.140
Like if I'm somebody who's chronically concerned about germs, I'm avoiding certain kinds of

01:12:37.140 --> 01:12:41.300
situations, even though I can't detect, I don't really know that there's an infection

01:12:41.300 --> 01:12:41.860
threat there.

01:12:42.020 --> 01:12:44.820
If there is, I'm safe, other people are not.

01:12:44.980 --> 01:12:50.370
And so over time, you could imagine that there is uh the evolution of this kind of a system

01:12:50.370 --> 01:12:50.770
as well.

01:12:53.010 --> 01:12:53.810
Great response.

01:12:53.890 --> 01:12:56.850
Um that cleared up a lot of confusion on on my end.

01:12:56.930 --> 01:13:02.770
Um I wanted to ask you uh about the relationship between the

01:13:02.770 --> 01:13:08.680
behavioral immune system and um avoidance of outgroups or attitudes toward

01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:09.480
outgroups.

01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:15.160
I know we talked to Josh Tiber about this, um, and he expressed some skepticism about this

01:13:15.160 --> 01:13:16.040
hypothesis.

01:13:16.200 --> 01:13:20.200
Uh I'd like to get your take on this, whether whether you share that skepticism or whether

01:13:20.200 --> 01:13:24.360
you're more sympathetic to the idea and what you think the state of the evidence is there.

01:13:26.040 --> 01:13:26.520
Yeah.

01:13:26.680 --> 01:13:32.510
Um also a one of these topic areas that people have started to revisit, like Josh Tiber, to

01:13:32.510 --> 01:13:37.470
ask questions, which I think are really important ones, about um how

01:13:39.390 --> 01:13:45.230
um careful, I guess, have we been about making predictions in this space?

01:13:45.390 --> 01:13:48.990
And I think, I mean, you can think about this in any kind of research space, where as soon

01:13:48.990 --> 01:13:54.720
as the topic area becomes popular in some sense, people make predictions about all sorts of

01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:54.960
things.

01:13:55.120 --> 01:13:57.920
Just how far can we push the boundaries of this idea?

01:13:58.160 --> 01:14:01.840
And then I think there's some scaling back and saying we went too far and so on.

01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:07.280
So when it comes to out groups, um I

01:14:08.560 --> 01:14:13.910
do agree with Josh uh Tiber that the types of

01:14:13.910 --> 01:14:19.830
interactions that really matter for presenting infection threats are probably going

01:14:19.830 --> 01:14:25.350
to be those in which people you're engaging with people who are practicing different

01:14:25.350 --> 01:14:31.110
kinds of behavioral X, cultural traditions, things that are

01:14:31.110 --> 01:14:36.920
likely to essentially not have culturally evolved to

01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:39.880
prevent infection in the environment that you are in, right?

01:14:40.120 --> 01:14:45.960
Because different types of bacterial and even viral threats that exist in an

01:14:45.960 --> 01:14:51.720
ecology and cultures have developed in many ways, uh, many places, ways of

01:14:52.040 --> 01:14:57.400
at least minimizing some of that danger if you engage in the right kinds of acts for that

01:14:57.400 --> 01:14:57.880
location.

01:14:58.040 --> 01:15:03.770
So somebody who is an outsider who's bringing in new norms, new practices, That person is

01:15:03.770 --> 01:15:08.570
going to present a potential risk because they're not doing the behaviors that minimize

01:15:08.570 --> 01:15:09.450
that infection.

01:15:09.690 --> 01:15:11.450
So I think that makes a lot of sense.

01:15:11.610 --> 01:15:15.530
So it's like a particular type of outgroup number.

01:15:16.410 --> 01:15:21.210
Um, I think as a superficial feature of

01:15:21.530 --> 01:15:27.290
difference and a potential threat, I I do still believe that there's some

01:15:27.930 --> 01:15:30.980
um Reaction, some essentially a cue.

01:15:31.060 --> 01:15:34.580
This is still a cue that I think people are reactive to to some extent.

01:15:35.220 --> 01:15:38.980
When there's any given threat that that is uh existing there.

01:15:39.140 --> 01:15:40.500
So that could be an infection threat.

01:15:40.660 --> 01:15:41.620
It could be another kind of threat.

01:15:41.700 --> 01:15:45.220
So I don't think it's outgroups are specific, like outgroup threat is specifically tied to

01:15:45.220 --> 01:15:46.100
infection.

01:15:49.300 --> 01:15:50.500
Oh sorry, David, go ahead.

01:15:50.830 --> 01:15:55.150
I mean, could it just be an extension of this social network idea that you're, you know,

01:15:55.310 --> 01:16:00.190
more restrictive about uh the people you spend time with more choosy and you're uh and

01:16:00.190 --> 01:16:04.750
you're less willing to have a you know a larger social network which could include quote

01:16:04.830 --> 01:16:08.030
unquote outgroups, uh but doesn't necessarily have to.

01:16:08.510 --> 01:16:09.390
Yeah, absolutely.

01:16:09.550 --> 01:16:11.790
I mean, I think that that makes a lot of sense.

01:16:11.950 --> 01:16:17.600
Um so your if your standards are higher, that means that anybody who's you know not

01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:23.600
meeting those standards is going to be treated uh as somebody uh you need to be

01:16:23.600 --> 01:16:25.680
more cautious around, you're to keep them at a distance.

01:16:25.840 --> 01:16:30.880
And that could in some cases end up looking like prejudice, uh, depending upon what the

01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:32.960
kind of measure is that you're that you're looking at.

01:16:33.120 --> 01:16:34.400
So I think that makes a lot of sense.

01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:40.410
And I think um we see that a lot when it comes to large-scale events like

01:16:40.410 --> 01:16:46.330
COVID, where there are there can be these really explicit outgroup

01:16:46.330 --> 01:16:48.570
prejudices that emerge, right?

01:16:49.450 --> 01:16:54.170
Whether it's really a function of being prejudiced to all outgrowths, I don't think that's

01:16:54.170 --> 01:16:58.810
necessarily the case, but it is probably an outgrowth of that same kind of a system.

01:17:00.160 --> 01:17:05.840
And and and at the same time, disgust uh and disease fears can be very profitably

01:17:05.840 --> 01:17:11.440
mobilized by political entrepreneurs and used uh to to to

01:17:11.440 --> 01:17:14.800
generate uh you know opposition to a particular group.

01:17:14.960 --> 01:17:16.000
Uh exactly.

01:17:16.160 --> 01:17:22.160
And there's a long history of using language uh to trigger disgust and create those kinds

01:17:22.160 --> 01:17:25.610
of um Barriers or conflicts with other groups.

01:17:25.930 --> 01:17:26.090
Yeah.

01:17:26.330 --> 01:17:31.770
I think one way of putting maybe how I'm hearing the answer to Josh is that, or one version

01:17:31.770 --> 01:17:37.770
of the hypothesis is that of all the group boundaries, when a group boundary

01:17:38.250 --> 01:17:44.090
involves differences in practices that evoke disgust

01:17:44.330 --> 01:17:46.330
or different hygiene practices.

01:17:46.570 --> 01:17:51.900
So if I'm in a culture and I go somewhere and everybody is even cleaner and and more

01:17:51.900 --> 01:17:54.780
hygienic than me, I'm gonna notice that.

01:17:54.860 --> 01:18:00.300
And like I've crossed a norm, a culture boundary of hygiene, or like conversely, if it's

01:18:00.300 --> 01:18:01.260
less right.

01:18:01.420 --> 01:18:07.100
And so, I mean, thinking like Borat, like, you know, the humor of uh doing uh, you know,

01:18:07.180 --> 01:18:11.500
like bodily functions or cleaning differently, you know, like that really stands out.

01:18:11.660 --> 01:18:17.500
And so I I I one version of this hypothesis is that there's lots of group boundaries,

01:18:17.750 --> 01:18:23.590
but there's a particular noticing of the system when you cross

01:18:23.910 --> 01:18:29.910
any behavior that activates this sort of pathogen or hygiene

01:18:29.910 --> 01:18:33.830
practice or this open entry for like infection risk.

01:18:33.910 --> 01:18:39.350
And then that really that that's that's a very strong um

01:18:40.310 --> 01:18:44.860
detector that really draws that boundary in a unique way.

01:18:44.940 --> 01:18:47.980
It's sort of saying we're crossing a hygiene boundary.

01:18:48.140 --> 01:18:52.700
And then as you said, that because that's true, then you can have demagogues using it to

01:18:52.940 --> 01:18:54.860
really reinforce a group boundary as well.

01:18:55.020 --> 01:18:55.260
Yeah.

01:18:55.660 --> 01:19:00.940
And I think something that's interesting with that idea is that people don't have a ready

01:19:01.020 --> 01:19:06.790
or at least a a um I will say evolved, I don't not

01:19:06.790 --> 01:19:12.470
gonna rest on that word, but uh evolved um understanding of what a good hygiene practice

01:19:12.470 --> 01:19:12.630
is.

01:19:12.950 --> 01:19:13.670
No, totally, yeah.

01:19:13.830 --> 01:19:13.990
Right?

01:19:14.070 --> 01:19:18.950
Yeah, and so you could have a group of people who is engaging in a behavior that's actually

01:19:18.950 --> 01:19:23.670
better than the one that your group is using to prevent infection, and you still might

01:19:23.670 --> 01:19:25.110
treat that as a problem.

01:19:25.190 --> 01:19:25.350
Yeah.

01:19:25.750 --> 01:19:29.540
So think about like mask wearing prior to COVID, right?

01:19:29.700 --> 01:19:32.580
That was often treated as some sort of weird thing that people did.

01:19:32.740 --> 01:19:36.900
And even post-COVID, like even uh as COVID started, it was like, why?

01:19:37.060 --> 01:19:38.900
Why are we what's going on here?

01:19:39.140 --> 01:19:45.060
And so um even though though it's an effective strategy, uh people can still

01:19:45.060 --> 01:19:50.180
react negatively and and it's a useful one for, like you were saying, those demagogues to

01:19:50.260 --> 01:19:50.980
to leverage.

01:19:51.290 --> 01:19:51.450
Yeah.

01:19:51.530 --> 01:19:55.610
I think uh all the anthropologists listening are like thinking of all the examples in

01:19:55.610 --> 01:19:59.930
ethnographic history of colonialists going to a native population that had culturally

01:19:59.930 --> 01:20:02.090
evolved a really good way of making the living there.

01:20:02.330 --> 01:20:06.650
And then being like, no, that's the wrong way to do it, because in England we do it this

01:20:06.650 --> 01:20:06.810
way.

01:20:06.890 --> 01:20:11.450
And then it's a terrible idea and people die and get diseases or like it doesn't work.

01:20:11.690 --> 01:20:17.040
So yeah, no, totally like the the the sort of um the uh uh

01:20:17.280 --> 01:20:22.640
parochialism of the way we do things is the right way everywhere uh is a very human thing

01:20:22.640 --> 01:20:22.960
to do.

01:20:23.360 --> 01:20:23.760
Exactly.

01:20:24.160 --> 01:20:24.800
Yeah, it is.

01:20:24.960 --> 01:20:29.760
And I guess that's suggesting that there's some ecological insensitivity that the events

01:20:30.880 --> 01:20:31.120
No.

01:20:31.200 --> 01:20:34.720
I mean there's a kernel of truth to that, which is as you said, like I think something Rob

01:20:34.720 --> 01:20:38.640
Boyd always said that it really stuck with me is that the world is opaque, right?

01:20:38.720 --> 01:20:41.440
Like we don't have a germ theory like until very recently.

01:20:41.600 --> 01:20:45.870
So there's this open slot for it seems like magic.

01:20:46.270 --> 01:20:50.030
We kind of do this thing, and it's like this proactive thing, right?

01:20:50.110 --> 01:20:54.190
It's like, you know, it's like we do this thing and somehow it keeps the spirits away.

01:20:54.430 --> 01:20:57.470
Or we're we're maybe dying less, but we don't know, you know.

01:20:57.550 --> 01:21:01.870
So it's a really hard thing to get right, these like opaque things in the world.

01:21:02.110 --> 01:21:07.550
And that's why you get all these hitchhiking things of rituals um or spirit

01:21:07.550 --> 01:21:08.830
accusations, right?

01:21:08.990 --> 01:21:14.860
Um the this this open entry, like you said, this proactive thing it reminds me of Pascal

01:21:14.940 --> 01:21:20.300
Boe's work too about sort of like precautionary stuff with this issue of being

01:21:20.300 --> 01:21:24.620
precautionary about infections really hard to get right you know if you're not if you don't

01:21:24.620 --> 01:21:29.420
have like a lab to test pathogens and even that like that's not so reliable either.

01:21:29.740 --> 01:21:33.180
Yeah and you can't even rely on the cues of infection because they're so variable.

01:21:33.260 --> 01:21:36.620
Even within person the same disease could present differently different ways.

01:21:36.780 --> 01:21:42.230
So you just kind of have to gloss over a lot of those uh

01:21:42.550 --> 01:21:44.790
things we can't really understand very well.

01:21:45.190 --> 01:21:45.510
Yeah.

01:21:45.830 --> 01:21:50.390
And in a in a world where there are lots of false positives because of you know error

01:21:50.390 --> 01:21:55.510
management logic where people are assumed to be unclean or unhygienic or impure or

01:21:55.510 --> 01:21:59.670
contamination risk for whatever reason, even though they're perfectly fine, you know, that

01:21:59.670 --> 01:22:01.430
itself can become a selection pressure.

01:22:01.590 --> 01:22:06.180
If that is a dynamic that exists in your social world where you run this risk of being

01:22:06.180 --> 01:22:12.100
perceived by others as a contamination risk or unclean or uh unhygienic, then you might

01:22:12.100 --> 01:22:18.100
have to actively perform certain rituals or send certain signals to minimize that risk

01:22:18.180 --> 01:22:23.540
that you're going to be uh excluded and and uh ganged up on and or treated as a as a

01:22:23.540 --> 01:22:24.180
pariah.

01:22:24.340 --> 01:22:29.300
And you might want to, you know, incur lots of costs to really signal to people that um

01:22:29.780 --> 01:22:32.730
you're not a contamination risk.

01:22:32.970 --> 01:22:33.290
Yeah.

01:22:33.850 --> 01:22:36.250
I think that's a that's an excellent point, David.

01:22:36.330 --> 01:22:40.650
And it's really um we didn't set this up in advance, but that's that's sort of the

01:22:40.650 --> 01:22:43.210
direction that uh some of my work is going in these days.

01:22:43.370 --> 01:22:43.770
Oh, cool.

01:22:44.010 --> 01:22:49.610
Is um really interested in that question of how people manage those kinds of trade-offs or

01:22:49.610 --> 01:22:54.540
those kinds of dilemmas that they have uh with respect to this, you know, how they're going

01:22:54.540 --> 01:22:59.580
to be treated by other people, how they're going to manage uh the risks that they're seeing

01:22:59.580 --> 01:23:04.220
around infection versus versus social life, um, and then what are the strategies that

01:23:04.220 --> 01:23:05.740
people are taking to do that, right?

01:23:05.820 --> 01:23:10.460
So are they having to go far in one direction in terms of showing something about

01:23:10.460 --> 01:23:10.940
themselves?

01:23:11.100 --> 01:23:17.020
Are they hiding cues to that that are gonna that could be used to ostracize

01:23:17.020 --> 01:23:18.780
them, those kinds of things?

01:23:22.150 --> 01:23:22.790
All right.

01:23:23.430 --> 01:23:29.190
Well, we're we're starting to to get up uh to uh a long time uh in this

01:23:29.190 --> 01:23:35.030
conversation so I mean I I think it might be s time to start zooming out a a little bit

01:23:35.270 --> 01:23:41.190
and um moving toward uh if there are any topics that you uh wish

01:23:41.190 --> 01:23:45.430
we had gotten to or any things that you're really excited about right now that that you'd

01:23:45.430 --> 01:23:47.030
love to delve into.

01:23:47.350 --> 01:23:50.060
Um is there anything Yeah.

01:23:50.300 --> 01:23:56.060
Um so I would say that one of the arms of work in this space that we've been doing for the

01:23:56.060 --> 01:23:59.500
past few years, um I I just think it's really a fun topic.

01:23:59.580 --> 01:24:04.940
I I always hesitate to say fun when we're talking about sickness, but it's fun for me.

01:24:05.100 --> 01:24:10.940
Uh and is is one of the ways in which people manage these kinds of

01:24:10.940 --> 01:24:16.410
uh dilemmas or trade-offs, and that is through concealment of sickness.

01:24:16.570 --> 01:24:20.810
And so we've been doing a lot of our uh the work that I was doing early on in this space

01:24:20.890 --> 01:24:25.130
was more about kind of fitting in the behavioral immune system literature, really about how

01:24:25.130 --> 01:24:26.650
do we prevent infection.

01:24:26.810 --> 01:24:29.770
We've been doing a lot more about post infection psychology.

01:24:29.930 --> 01:24:33.450
So once you get sick, what do you what do you do about that?

01:24:34.010 --> 01:24:36.970
And uh specifically around social life.

01:24:37.200 --> 01:24:42.960
And so we have this whole series of projects where we're

01:24:42.960 --> 01:24:48.480
thinking about this idea that people hide signs of illness from others

01:24:49.200 --> 01:24:52.880
because they are concerned about the reactions of other people, right?

01:24:52.960 --> 01:24:57.360
I don't want to trigger somebody else's behavioral immune system such that they're now

01:24:57.360 --> 01:25:03.030
going to react negatively to me, want to avoid me, you know, not allow me to

01:25:03.030 --> 01:25:05.990
engage in in social life in other ways.

01:25:06.230 --> 01:25:12.070
And so we were approaching that from the question of okay, there's lots of things that

01:25:12.070 --> 01:25:13.990
people could do to sort of alleviate that.

01:25:14.070 --> 01:25:18.710
But the the easiest, it's not in some ways, it would be to just not trigger those reactions

01:25:18.710 --> 01:25:19.750
in the first place.

01:25:20.150 --> 01:25:25.910
And so we have been studying that and uh asking people about how they uh

01:25:25.910 --> 01:25:28.470
engage in social life when they're sick.

01:25:28.630 --> 01:25:33.760
Uh and uh maybe good for us, bad for everybody else.

01:25:33.840 --> 01:25:39.760
Um, this is a really common behavior that that uh yeah people engage in.

01:25:40.080 --> 01:25:40.880
That's super important.

01:25:40.960 --> 01:25:44.240
I mean, that's so useful to know because again, that's like another thing where like if I

01:25:44.240 --> 01:25:47.520
wear a mask, then everybody knows I'm sick, but then I could prevent people.

01:25:47.600 --> 01:25:49.680
But I but you want to that deal with that psychology.

01:25:49.760 --> 01:25:54.320
I love this idea, like the self-conscious emotions dealing with infection.

01:25:54.480 --> 01:25:57.200
You would imagine there's this this huge um thing.

01:25:57.360 --> 01:25:58.640
That's awesome that you're doing that.

01:25:58.720 --> 01:25:59.040
Yeah.

01:26:00.030 --> 01:26:00.190
Yeah.

01:26:00.270 --> 01:26:01.150
It's been really interesting.

01:26:01.230 --> 01:26:01.550
I'm sorry.

01:26:01.870 --> 01:26:07.230
I mean, I I would I would imagine that um anger or anticipated anger is also at play uh in

01:26:07.230 --> 01:26:12.510
addition to concerns about being the object of disgust or contamination fear.

01:26:12.670 --> 01:26:17.310
And that, you know, if I'm putting someone at risk of being sick, I'm inflicting a cost on

01:26:17.310 --> 01:26:21.870
them uh for a particularly small benefit, just so I can have the pleasure of, you know,

01:26:21.950 --> 01:26:24.110
hanging out or being outside or or whatever.

01:26:24.270 --> 01:26:28.800
I'm you know, I'm inflicting cost on them for a comparatively low benefit to myself, Uh,

01:26:28.880 --> 01:26:30.160
and that could trigger anger.

01:26:30.240 --> 01:26:33.200
It could signal that I have a low welfare trade-off ratio toward other people.

01:26:33.360 --> 01:26:36.480
I'm not very concerned about other people and and their well being.

01:26:36.640 --> 01:26:41.120
And I might anticipate that and hide the fact that I'm sick to avoid eliciting other

01:26:41.120 --> 01:26:41.760
people's anger.

01:26:41.840 --> 01:26:46.320
It's sort of like I'm getting away with a a transgression of of putting people at at risk.

01:26:46.480 --> 01:26:49.200
So I I bet that is a part of it as well.

01:26:50.160 --> 01:26:52.810
So I can speak a little bit to that.

01:26:52.890 --> 01:26:57.210
Um where we've we so we've tried to collect data on the reasons that people give us, at

01:26:57.210 --> 01:26:58.730
least for why they do these things.

01:26:59.290 --> 01:27:04.970
And what we've found so far, which I think so I had the same intuition that uh that you

01:27:04.970 --> 01:27:05.210
did.

01:27:05.290 --> 01:27:10.330
Um what we found so far in terms of the reasons that people give for why they would hide

01:27:10.330 --> 01:27:13.850
illness, this is specifically in face-to-face social interactions.

01:27:15.100 --> 01:27:20.780
There's about 20% of people that we've talked to say they do it

01:27:20.780 --> 01:27:23.980
specifically to avoid those reactions from other people.

01:27:25.020 --> 01:27:26.140
But it's only 20%.

01:27:27.260 --> 01:27:32.140
And there's some other reasons that seem to dominate this much more.

01:27:32.300 --> 01:27:37.090
In fact, when I when I tell people, like why would you engage in in social life when you're

01:27:37.090 --> 01:27:37.330
sick?

01:27:37.490 --> 01:27:42.530
The number one thing that people seem to to respond with is, well, if I'm thinking about

01:27:42.610 --> 01:27:46.930
like going to work when I'm sick, or if I'm a student going to class when I'm sick, it's

01:27:46.930 --> 01:27:47.890
because I have to, right?

01:27:47.970 --> 01:27:51.810
It's because I don't have adequate sick leave or I have the, you know, there's a policies

01:27:51.970 --> 01:27:52.530
in place.

01:27:52.690 --> 01:27:56.290
But really, that one is also not uh leading the pack.

01:27:56.370 --> 01:27:58.130
That's only five percent of people.

01:27:59.580 --> 01:28:05.580
The majority of the reason why people say they do this is a combination of

01:28:05.820 --> 01:28:08.620
feeling like they are, they would burden other people.

01:28:09.100 --> 01:28:14.460
So if like if I I'm going to go to work when I'm sick because other people would have to

01:28:14.460 --> 01:28:16.140
take my work on if I wasn't there.

01:28:17.260 --> 01:28:22.370
And equally as strongly is basically just, I think, FOMO.

01:28:23.410 --> 01:28:26.450
They are just prioritizing their own goals.

01:28:26.530 --> 01:28:28.290
They don't want to stay home.

01:28:28.450 --> 01:28:32.450
They don't want, they don't, it's it's less about the reactions of other people.

01:28:32.610 --> 01:28:37.410
It's more about like my goals are what matter.

01:28:37.810 --> 01:28:43.680
And that is a that is both in some ways maybe an expected uh uh

01:28:43.680 --> 01:28:47.360
behavior, but also a tough one to really deal with, right?

01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:53.040
Um it's and so I'm not saying that that I don't that that people are not worried about the

01:28:53.040 --> 01:28:56.960
anger of other people or the welfare trade-offs that they're they're expecting, um, that

01:28:56.960 --> 01:29:01.200
other people might calculate about them, but at least in terms of their top of mind

01:29:01.200 --> 01:29:06.720
explanations, it's really they're just prioritizing their own goals to some extent over

01:29:06.720 --> 01:29:08.000
those of other people.

01:29:08.530 --> 01:29:14.530
And we get that, I mean, I think that where that anger and concern for others would would

01:29:14.530 --> 01:29:18.930
probably rest is in when you have a pre-existing close relationship with other people.

01:29:19.090 --> 01:29:22.690
So we do see that people do this less with close others.

01:29:23.890 --> 01:29:26.050
But there's a lot of places where they do it.

01:29:26.530 --> 01:29:30.450
They do it a lot, this kind of hiding behavior.

01:29:30.850 --> 01:29:35.860
And I think it was really interesting to find that it's really, as far as we can tell, so

01:29:36.020 --> 01:29:40.100
right now, it's really about this goal prioritization where it's just like either I'm just

01:29:40.100 --> 01:29:45.940
gonna go after my own goals, and it's partly it's because people believe that uh

01:29:47.060 --> 01:29:49.780
that it's everyone's gonna get sick.

01:29:50.100 --> 01:29:55.460
And so if you're out in the world and you get sick,

01:29:55.780 --> 01:29:58.970
maybe it's my fault, but you know, people can't see germs.

01:29:59.050 --> 01:30:00.810
So maybe you got to see somebody else.

01:30:01.050 --> 01:30:03.450
So there's some plausible deniability there.

01:30:04.090 --> 01:30:08.090
And it's like, oh, you're going into social life, you're, you're running the risk yourself.

01:30:08.170 --> 01:30:11.850
You know, you're interacting with me, uh, whether I'm sick or not.

01:30:12.010 --> 01:30:16.890
And so you're just putting yourself out there as a possible infection target.

01:30:17.130 --> 01:30:21.770
And so I think there's a lot of ways that people can sort of navigate that that those those

01:30:21.780 --> 01:30:24.660
cognitions around that sounds like a rationalization.

01:30:24.980 --> 01:30:29.300
I think I think what we need to do is we need to get this subset of your population, Josh,

01:30:29.380 --> 01:30:29.860
that does this.

01:30:29.940 --> 01:30:32.820
And we need the David to sit down with them and explain to them.

01:30:32.980 --> 01:30:35.780
I feel like there's a there's an intervention for it.

01:30:35.940 --> 01:30:36.180
Yeah.

01:30:36.820 --> 01:30:37.140
Okay.

01:30:37.380 --> 01:30:43.140
So this the subset uh of people who actually hide illness in in our studies so far has been

01:30:43.140 --> 01:30:44.260
75% of people.

01:30:44.900 --> 01:30:45.140
Yeah.

01:30:45.300 --> 01:30:45.540
Wow.

01:30:46.340 --> 01:30:51.190
And that included, we did some studies during COVID with healthcare workers, and that

01:30:51.190 --> 01:30:53.590
included people who work in hospital systems.

01:30:53.830 --> 01:30:58.230
Um, and it was less, but it was still over 50% of people.

01:30:58.790 --> 01:31:02.390
And we have some recent data, like people we were presenting with some of this.

01:31:02.550 --> 01:31:04.950
A lot of this work has been led by by graduate students.

01:31:05.110 --> 01:31:08.870
I should shout out Wilson Merrill as being a lead on some of this work.

01:31:09.030 --> 01:31:13.990
Um he was doing some presentations, uh, he's a post hoc in Denmark right now with people in

01:31:13.990 --> 01:31:18.660
Europe, and they kept saying, Oh, it's an American thing, because Americans are just you

01:31:18.660 --> 01:31:23.780
know self-interested, and so we've done some international data collection, and the US is

01:31:23.780 --> 01:31:28.580
actually at the low end, one of the least frequent countries doing this behavior.

01:31:29.140 --> 01:31:34.660
So um it seems to be really common, seems to be really prevalent, and uh

01:31:35.620 --> 01:31:41.460
yeah, and it does seem to be the biggest predictor we found, I think, is exclusion concern.

01:31:41.750 --> 01:31:46.630
So people who are worried about those those negative reactions from in terms of ostracism.

01:31:46.870 --> 01:31:50.870
I hope you're getting a tremendous amount of funding for this because like getting sick and

01:31:50.870 --> 01:31:55.350
illness is a huge uh uh harm to everybody.

01:31:55.590 --> 01:32:00.230
I mean, forget about a you know, they're just just yeah, like missing school, missing loved

01:32:00.230 --> 01:32:02.630
ones, missing social interaction.

01:32:02.790 --> 01:32:05.580
Uh I hope you're getting a lot of funding for this.

01:32:05.740 --> 01:32:09.100
They're laughs I just environment I'm not sure.

01:32:09.420 --> 01:32:11.740
Yeah, but this is super incredibly important.

01:32:11.820 --> 01:32:17.820
I mean, just yeah, this this idea that like missing out um is why uh people are getting

01:32:17.820 --> 01:32:23.340
each other sick is it makes sense, but it's it's it feels like there would be a way around

01:32:23.340 --> 01:32:23.980
all of this.

01:32:24.140 --> 01:32:24.780
Um yeah.

01:32:25.100 --> 01:32:25.900
Yeah, yeah.

01:32:27.110 --> 01:32:30.950
Can you try an intervention where you just record me just yelling at these people?

01:32:31.670 --> 01:32:32.870
I really want to get this Tony.

01:32:33.030 --> 01:32:34.470
Yeah, this you self-entitled.

01:32:34.630 --> 01:32:35.270
Yeah, no, exactly.

01:32:35.830 --> 01:32:36.070
Yeah.

01:32:36.710 --> 01:32:36.870
Yeah.

01:32:37.030 --> 01:32:40.070
I actually one question is this is this what is the population?

01:32:40.150 --> 01:32:42.310
Is it is it undergrads at a convenience sample?

01:32:42.390 --> 01:32:44.230
Not as a duck uh a knock on it.

01:32:44.310 --> 01:32:48.310
I'm just curious, like what is the are these people with kids or not, or old people?

01:32:48.390 --> 01:32:48.630
Yeah.

01:32:49.030 --> 01:32:49.350
Right.

01:32:49.670 --> 01:32:54.940
So the first group of studies where we looked at this was a combination of undergrads.

01:32:55.100 --> 01:32:58.460
We we did some online samples with different different platforms.

01:32:58.540 --> 01:33:00.380
We did the healthcare workers.

01:33:00.700 --> 01:33:04.780
Um since then, we've been mostly doing various online platforms.

01:33:04.860 --> 01:33:10.380
Um international study was um with this platform that does a lot of different countries

01:33:10.380 --> 01:33:14.700
around the world, focusing a lot of it on non weird uh uh populations.

01:33:15.340 --> 01:33:20.810
And so most of it is people, I would say, who are adults, you know,

01:33:20.890 --> 01:33:24.490
ranging from, you know, I think the average age is like 35 to 40.

01:33:24.730 --> 01:33:29.450
So I, you know, we haven't actually looked at the kids' question yet.

01:33:29.610 --> 01:33:29.770
Yeah.

01:33:30.010 --> 01:33:31.290
That is definitely an important one.

01:33:31.370 --> 01:33:33.290
But we've we have not explored it yet.

01:33:33.450 --> 01:33:37.130
So I think it would be um interesting to see what happens there.

01:33:37.520 --> 01:33:43.520
Anecdotally, we've been told many times that um people do this for their kids.

01:33:43.760 --> 01:33:47.520
So you know there's always the the question of kid like kids saying, oh, I'm sick mom, I

01:33:47.520 --> 01:33:48.560
don't want to go to school.

01:33:48.880 --> 01:33:54.560
But if your kids are young and you want to put them in daycare and go to work

01:33:54.720 --> 01:34:00.640
and they're sick, well now you're faced with that dilemma of like, do I hide

01:34:00.640 --> 01:34:02.960
illness on the part of my child?

01:34:03.120 --> 01:34:03.280
Yeah.

01:34:03.440 --> 01:34:07.490
And we've been told that parents are not uncommonly doing that.

01:34:07.730 --> 01:34:08.370
Yeah.

01:34:09.810 --> 01:34:10.370
Yeah.

01:34:10.690 --> 01:34:15.010
Uh have you found any correlates of you said you looked at this in a bunch of different

01:34:15.010 --> 01:34:15.330
countries.

01:34:15.490 --> 01:34:21.090
Is there something that predicts the likelihood with which people are are um going to hide

01:34:21.090 --> 01:34:22.530
their disease cues?

01:34:22.850 --> 01:34:23.970
So I hope so.

01:34:24.130 --> 01:34:30.130
But what's really interesting uh in in where we've looked so far, we have found

01:34:30.130 --> 01:34:33.490
no country level factor that predicts this.

01:34:33.880 --> 01:34:34.280
Wow.

01:34:34.520 --> 01:34:34.920
Interesting.

01:34:35.400 --> 01:34:37.000
Not even collectivism or anything like that.

01:34:37.160 --> 01:34:38.920
I would expect naively expect that to be the case.

01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:39.160
No.

01:34:39.400 --> 01:34:39.880
Yeah, I know.

01:34:39.960 --> 01:34:43.400
We had a lot of predictions about these things, and we have found nothing so far.

01:34:43.560 --> 01:34:47.960
We have found individual level predictors that that have come within each country.

01:34:48.120 --> 01:34:50.360
So exclusion concern is the biggest.

01:34:50.520 --> 01:34:53.960
Um, I think followed by psychopathy.

01:34:54.200 --> 01:34:56.710
Uh and that makes sense.

01:34:56.950 --> 01:34:57.190
All right.

01:34:57.430 --> 01:34:58.630
Yeah, that's that's I'm gonna include that.

01:34:58.870 --> 01:35:00.150
That's a group that David needs to talk to.

01:35:00.230 --> 01:35:01.190
That's yeah, I don't care.

01:35:01.510 --> 01:35:02.470
Get me all the psychopaths.

01:35:02.790 --> 01:35:03.430
It's opaque.

01:35:03.510 --> 01:35:03.910
Exactly.

01:35:04.150 --> 01:35:04.550
Yeah.

01:35:04.870 --> 01:35:08.710
Uh the last one is this is this disease avoidance motivation that people like.

01:35:08.790 --> 01:35:13.430
So if you're more concerned about illness yourself, like you're somebody who's germ averse

01:35:13.430 --> 01:35:18.020
or whatever, um, it turns out you actually are more pro-social in a sense.

01:35:18.180 --> 01:35:20.740
You hide it less from other people when you do miss it.

01:35:21.140 --> 01:35:27.140
So I think that's an interesting sort of benefit, I guess, to being um a

01:35:27.140 --> 01:35:29.540
little bit more, you know, uh germ concerned.

01:35:29.940 --> 01:35:34.820
Well it's yeah, it suggests that you know you perceive disease as a higher cost.

01:35:34.900 --> 01:35:38.650
And presumably, you know, if it's a higher cost to you, then you translate that as a higher

01:35:38.650 --> 01:35:41.450
cost to other people and you're less willing to inflict those costs on them.

01:35:41.690 --> 01:35:41.850
Yeah.

01:35:42.330 --> 01:35:44.650
So long as you're not a sociopath or psychopath.

01:35:44.810 --> 01:35:44.890
Yeah.

01:35:45.050 --> 01:35:45.130
Yeah.

01:35:45.690 --> 01:35:46.250
Exactly.

01:35:46.570 --> 01:35:51.450
So I'll just mention one other project that's related to this that the sociopath thing

01:35:51.450 --> 01:35:52.010
triggers.

01:35:52.250 --> 01:35:56.490
But I it can't be all sociopaths in these samples.

01:35:56.650 --> 01:36:02.410
So what we've looked at also is not just the individual decision makers' behavior

01:36:02.490 --> 01:36:06.570
once you're sick, but third-party evaluations of this behavior.

01:36:06.900 --> 01:36:11.300
And so does this influence the judgments that you have about people engaging in this?

01:36:11.380 --> 01:36:14.900
Like, does it change your perception of their moral character or something like that?

01:36:14.980 --> 01:36:16.420
Because they're being deceptive.

01:36:16.740 --> 01:36:20.420
Um, and what's really interesting is the answer is only sometimes.

01:36:20.580 --> 01:36:26.260
There are certain situations where most people excuse this

01:36:26.260 --> 01:36:30.450
behavior, Not just the person who's doing it, but like the observers.

01:36:30.610 --> 01:36:34.610
They're like, yeah, it doesn't change my judgment of them because it's something like if

01:36:34.610 --> 01:36:40.530
they're going to work or they're having to go to an obligation, I expect them to hide

01:36:40.530 --> 01:36:40.850
it.

01:36:41.730 --> 01:36:42.050
Yeah.

01:36:42.210 --> 01:36:43.570
Um, which is weird, right?

01:36:43.650 --> 01:36:48.130
Yeah, I think you, if you really cared about this stuff, you should expect them to admit to

01:36:48.130 --> 01:36:49.010
it and still do it.

01:36:49.170 --> 01:36:54.240
But I guess that they're the calculation is that if they did that, they would be somehow

01:36:54.240 --> 01:37:00.160
prevented from um engaging in that that behavioral I mean that suggests that,

01:37:00.240 --> 01:37:04.640
you know, in order to avoid inflicting the cost on you, I would have to inflict an even

01:37:04.640 --> 01:37:09.840
bigger cost by like missing work when I'm really financially strapped or or missing, you

01:37:09.840 --> 01:37:14.450
know, important social obligation like missing that would be a huge cost to me and it it

01:37:14.450 --> 01:37:17.570
seems reasonable that we wouldn't expect people to incur those costs.

01:37:17.810 --> 01:37:18.050
Yeah.

01:37:18.130 --> 01:37:22.370
And so it doesn't translate into um any kind of knock on your your character, your moral

01:37:22.450 --> 01:37:23.010
your moral character.

01:37:23.250 --> 01:37:23.330
Yeah.

01:37:23.570 --> 01:37:24.530
It's a common knowledge problem.

01:37:24.610 --> 01:37:27.810
David, this is another thing you got to get on the common knowledge pathogen avoidance.

01:37:27.890 --> 01:37:31.570
So like is the chef going to wear like a mask and be like I have a cold and everybody

01:37:31.570 --> 01:37:32.450
thinks that's fine.

01:37:32.770 --> 01:37:38.380
You you know nobody's gonna knock the chef, but ideally uh everyone would have a norm of

01:37:38.460 --> 01:37:40.300
well, if he has to work, he should do that.

01:37:40.380 --> 01:37:42.620
But there's not common knowledge.

01:37:42.700 --> 01:37:46.700
So we wouldn't we wouldn't expect the chef to do that because we know the chef would know

01:37:46.700 --> 01:37:49.500
that everyone would be think that's terrible.

01:37:49.580 --> 01:37:51.260
And what are you gonna do?

01:37:53.340 --> 01:37:55.580
I keep thinking of yeah, yeah.

01:37:55.660 --> 01:37:58.940
I keep thinking about the somebody just being like, excuse me, while I sneeze on your baby.

01:37:59.020 --> 01:38:04.410
This is Um I I I had one last question about this that that occurred to me.

01:38:04.490 --> 01:38:05.210
I'm curious about.

01:38:05.290 --> 01:38:11.130
It seems like um the psychology of um hiding a contagious

01:38:11.130 --> 01:38:16.970
temporary illness um is going to be very different from the psychology of hiding

01:38:16.970 --> 01:38:21.210
a chronic and a potentially uh non-contagious illness.

01:38:21.290 --> 01:38:24.250
And the reasons for doing so might be very different in in either of these cases.

01:38:24.330 --> 01:38:29.860
Have you looked at at the different types of illnesses uh or or or and how that might be a

01:38:29.860 --> 01:38:30.500
factor here.

01:38:30.740 --> 01:38:31.380
Yeah.

01:38:32.020 --> 01:38:37.620
We have um not looked at comparisons with chronic illness, but we've looked at

01:38:37.620 --> 01:38:40.260
comparisons with uh hiding other types of information.

01:38:40.420 --> 01:38:46.340
So like um the chronic illnesses, I think the the major reason this these have been studied

01:38:46.340 --> 01:38:46.980
a fair amount.

01:38:47.060 --> 01:38:51.540
Uh the major reason people hide those is because they're anticipating some type of stigma

01:38:51.540 --> 01:38:52.180
to result.

01:38:52.660 --> 01:38:57.770
And but there's other types of information, people do this also because of the the stigma

01:38:58.010 --> 01:38:58.490
concern.

01:38:58.650 --> 01:39:04.010
So hiding something about your identity could be like sexual orientation, it could be like

01:39:04.010 --> 01:39:06.250
criminal history, it could be all sorts of things.

01:39:06.970 --> 01:39:12.730
We have done those comparisons and we find that people

01:39:13.210 --> 01:39:19.210
who do, who are, who are hiding the contagious illnesses, they do anticipate some type

01:39:19.210 --> 01:39:20.570
of stigma associated with that.

01:39:20.650 --> 01:39:26.340
But even over and above that, they are still likely to engage in that

01:39:26.340 --> 01:39:26.900
behavior.

01:39:27.140 --> 01:39:31.780
So it I think that it is an appropriate comparison to make with something like chronic

01:39:31.780 --> 01:39:33.140
illness or identity concealment.

01:39:33.460 --> 01:39:38.100
But the major difference is those don't create the potential for direct harm.

01:39:38.500 --> 01:39:43.620
There's no transmitted harm just from interacting with somebody.

01:39:43.700 --> 01:39:49.060
Even if the deception was not uncovered, you still can have harm that results from that.

01:39:49.220 --> 01:39:53.540
And I think that's what makes this contagious illness concealment interesting.

01:39:55.210 --> 01:39:55.850
Cool.

01:39:57.130 --> 01:39:58.090
All right, Josh.

01:39:58.170 --> 01:40:01.450
I mean, this was a really fun conversation.

01:40:01.610 --> 01:40:03.290
I had a great time chatting with you.

01:40:03.770 --> 01:40:04.330
I enjoyed it.

01:40:04.410 --> 01:40:05.370
Yeah, this is fun.

01:40:05.610 --> 01:40:05.770
Yeah.

01:40:06.010 --> 01:40:06.250
All right.

01:40:06.330 --> 01:40:07.610
Um yeah.

01:40:07.690 --> 01:40:08.650
And thank you for coming on.

01:40:08.730 --> 01:40:14.650
And yes, please, uh, if you are sick, uh what can we can we end on a

01:40:14.650 --> 01:40:15.050
PSA?

01:40:15.290 --> 01:40:16.970
If you're sick, what do you recommend people do?

01:40:17.130 --> 01:40:19.840
Like watch reality TV so they don't feel FOMO.

01:40:20.160 --> 01:40:23.840
Like can we wrap us all up in a watch survivor?

01:40:24.240 --> 01:40:24.880
Yeah.

01:40:25.280 --> 01:40:28.240
I probably shouldn't have mentioned that thing about people excusing it.

01:40:28.480 --> 01:40:30.240
Uh no, it's good.

01:40:30.560 --> 01:40:31.440
That's not helpful.

01:40:32.320 --> 01:40:38.080
No, it's it it reality is we should always accept the data and deal with the data.

01:40:38.160 --> 01:40:38.480
Yeah.

01:40:38.800 --> 01:40:39.040
Right.

01:40:39.200 --> 01:40:43.570
I would say just admit to it or prepare to be yelled at by David.

01:40:44.050 --> 01:40:45.170
Yeah, I I will find you.

01:40:45.250 --> 01:40:45.730
I will find you.

01:40:45.890 --> 01:40:46.370
Wear a mask.

01:40:46.530 --> 01:40:47.170
Wear a mask.

01:40:47.650 --> 01:40:51.410
Or, you know, just be on like if you're you have a social thing, just like tell your

01:40:51.410 --> 01:40:55.890
friends that, you know, you have a cold and you know, if if if you don't want to risk

01:40:55.890 --> 01:40:57.730
getting sick, then you you understand.

01:40:57.970 --> 01:41:00.450
But if you know, leave put it in their hands.

01:41:00.610 --> 01:41:05.010
Like let them, you know, have the the full information and make an informed decision.

01:41:05.250 --> 01:41:05.490
Yeah.

01:41:05.650 --> 01:41:08.210
Everybody gets sick and there's always other stuff that's gonna happen.

01:41:08.610 --> 01:41:10.210
If you miss this one thing, so whatever.

01:41:10.450 --> 01:41:10.690
Yeah.

01:41:10.900 --> 01:41:11.700
Yeah, exactly.

01:41:11.860 --> 01:41:12.100
All right.

01:41:12.260 --> 01:41:13.220
Josh, that was awesome.

01:41:13.300 --> 01:41:13.940
Thank you so much.

01:41:14.260 --> 01:41:14.500
Okay.

01:41:14.660 --> 01:41:14.900
Great.

01:41:15.060 --> 01:41:16.420
Great to talk to you both.

01:41:21.780 --> 01:41:24.500
Uh David, do we think we still need to be doing these outros?

01:41:24.740 --> 01:41:26.820
I mean we're here anyway, so we should say something.

01:41:27.220 --> 01:41:29.060
Yeah, we we should say something.

01:41:29.300 --> 01:41:34.970
I really do like your um uh your song The Oh the this the music?

01:41:37.130 --> 01:41:37.610
Can I ask you?

01:41:37.770 --> 01:41:39.690
It's called, can I tell people what it's called?

01:41:39.930 --> 01:41:40.250
Sure.

01:41:40.410 --> 01:41:41.370
It's Manafort.

01:41:41.530 --> 01:41:42.490
What is that?

01:41:42.890 --> 01:41:44.090
Uh it was totally random.

01:41:44.250 --> 01:41:48.490
I think I might have been like watching a documentary where Paul Manafort was mentioned and

01:41:48.490 --> 01:41:50.250
it was just on my head and I needed a title swift for it.

01:41:50.490 --> 01:41:52.170
It's a great, it's a great, it's a it's perfect.

01:41:52.250 --> 01:41:52.570
I love it.

01:41:52.650 --> 01:41:54.650
But in case you're wondering, it's called Manafort.

01:41:54.730 --> 01:41:54.890
Yeah.

01:41:55.210 --> 01:41:55.610
Yes.

01:41:55.880 --> 01:41:58.920
Um again not not enough Glockenspiel.

01:41:59.080 --> 01:42:05.000
Um David, what should we do in this uh outro other than remind people to um

01:42:05.640 --> 01:42:06.680
make comments?

01:42:06.760 --> 01:42:07.960
That's not the verb.

01:42:08.440 --> 01:42:10.600
Produce comments, excrete comments.

01:42:10.840 --> 01:42:13.960
That was a very excited, yeah.

01:42:14.440 --> 01:42:14.680
Yeah.

01:42:14.760 --> 01:42:18.120
Uh comment, like, uh subscribe.

01:42:18.360 --> 01:42:18.600
Yeah.

01:42:18.760 --> 01:42:21.000
Uh say nice things on social media.

01:42:22.130 --> 01:42:22.690
Patreon.

01:42:22.770 --> 01:42:23.490
Uh Patreon.

01:42:23.810 --> 01:42:24.770
We do have a Patreon, yes.

01:42:24.850 --> 01:42:25.010
Yeah.

01:42:25.250 --> 01:42:25.490
We do.

01:42:25.650 --> 01:42:27.090
Has anyone we have?

01:42:27.250 --> 01:42:27.410
Yeah.

01:42:27.570 --> 01:42:27.810
Yeah.

01:42:27.890 --> 01:42:28.930
It's just it's just yeah.

01:42:29.170 --> 01:42:30.850
We I sh yeah we there we do.

01:42:30.930 --> 01:42:34.610
I mean we should actually figure out what we're gonna do with with those ten cents.

01:42:34.690 --> 01:42:35.570
But yes we do.

01:42:35.810 --> 01:42:36.610
Oh, all right.

01:42:36.690 --> 01:42:37.010
Yeah.

01:42:37.170 --> 01:42:37.570
Hmm.

01:42:37.730 --> 01:42:39.490
What can we spend that money on?

01:42:39.570 --> 01:42:42.130
Maybe we'll enjoy a a Snickers bar.

01:42:42.210 --> 01:42:46.850
Uh I was gonna say we could support a graduate a graduate student for a summer or

01:42:46.850 --> 01:42:51.330
something, you know, two people on MTurk.

01:42:51.560 --> 01:42:57.480
Or we can uh we can advertise the podcast to m we can we should advertise shorts

01:42:57.720 --> 01:43:01.400
um on YouTube and then because we do no advertising.

01:43:01.800 --> 01:43:02.360
That's true.

01:43:02.520 --> 01:43:07.000
So yeah maybe we could put that that money into some ads for yeah and then grow the grow

01:43:07.000 --> 01:43:08.600
the thing like a pyramid screen.

01:43:08.680 --> 01:43:12.590
Um one of the comments people gave uh somebody was listening to one of the episodes on

01:43:12.590 --> 01:43:16.670
YouTube and they said, Oh, you guys could get a lot more hits and views if you had gotten

01:43:16.670 --> 01:43:18.590
on this like bandwagon cultural thing.

01:43:18.670 --> 01:43:18.990
I don't know.

01:43:19.070 --> 01:43:20.110
I'm just, you know, whatever.

01:43:20.270 --> 01:43:24.590
Um, it was something I think it was like the Colton Scrivener episode where they said, You

01:43:24.750 --> 01:43:26.590
you guys could have had a lot more.

01:43:26.830 --> 01:43:30.430
It was a great episode, and you guys could have had a lot more views if you had gotten on

01:43:30.430 --> 01:43:35.870
this, like, you know, people watching horror movie reaction bandwagon, if you had got on

01:43:35.870 --> 01:43:36.110
this.

01:43:36.270 --> 01:43:40.820
And I was just thinking, like, that assumes we uh what band the movie reaction band?

01:43:41.140 --> 01:43:41.300
What?

01:43:41.540 --> 01:43:45.220
You know how there's like YouTube videos of people like playing video games and people

01:43:45.220 --> 01:43:49.780
watch people playing video games and I think it's like that where you like react to horror

01:43:49.780 --> 01:43:50.100
movies.

01:43:50.180 --> 01:43:50.820
I have no idea.

01:43:50.900 --> 01:43:54.020
I I I I only spent about four seconds looking into this.

01:43:54.500 --> 01:43:56.580
People watching people watching horror movies.

01:43:56.900 --> 01:43:57.540
Correct, correct.

01:43:57.700 --> 01:43:59.380
Which is actually kind of interesting.

01:43:59.700 --> 01:44:01.810
That is a recursive for sure.

01:44:02.130 --> 01:44:02.370
Okay.

01:44:02.530 --> 01:44:03.090
Um, yeah.

01:44:03.170 --> 01:44:04.450
So number one, that exists.

01:44:04.610 --> 01:44:10.530
Number two, this commentator on YouTube said if we had gotten into this, I guess,

01:44:10.770 --> 01:44:14.290
um uh we could have gotten a lot more views and likes.

01:44:14.370 --> 01:44:20.290
And so if we watched movies and videotaped us watching movies, I don't know.

01:44:20.370 --> 01:44:24.690
I don't know how we were gonna get out on the ground floor of the people watching people

01:44:24.690 --> 01:44:25.650
watching horror.

01:44:25.810 --> 01:44:26.770
I don't know.

01:44:27.460 --> 01:44:29.220
Maybe we can ask them what they meant.

01:44:29.540 --> 01:44:31.620
Yeah, I think we need some clarification.

01:44:31.940 --> 01:44:36.660
Some guidance and how but what at my point in saying bringing the whole stuff is it assumes

01:44:36.660 --> 01:44:38.980
that we want to be like a viral podcast.

01:44:40.820 --> 01:44:42.500
Where we want more views.

01:44:42.820 --> 01:44:43.540
It assumes that.

01:44:43.620 --> 01:44:44.980
And I I don't know that's true.

01:44:45.060 --> 01:44:45.220
Yeah.

01:44:45.380 --> 01:44:48.340
I mean it's a reasonable assumption to make that you know we wouldn't want something.

01:44:48.660 --> 01:44:52.740
But I would I would poke on that like the idea that like numbers are what counts.

01:44:52.820 --> 01:44:58.670
Like if I I don't maybe this is a justification for not um being more

01:44:59.150 --> 01:45:02.270
Yeah, it sounds sounds like rationalization I I don't know, man.

01:45:02.350 --> 01:45:07.230
I I this is this thing of like I I I really question this modern assumption that like

01:45:07.310 --> 01:45:13.070
everything should be like entertaining and everybody should be putting content up for the

01:45:13.070 --> 01:45:16.750
point of having as many people like it as possible.

01:45:17.150 --> 01:45:21.660
Maybe it's the um it it feels like very hollow to me.

01:45:21.820 --> 01:45:25.740
Like the point is you present stuff that you care about and that you're happy people are

01:45:25.740 --> 01:45:29.340
engaged with, but there's always a higher number, you know?

01:45:29.660 --> 01:45:30.140
That's true.

01:45:30.380 --> 01:45:34.380
Like what yeah, what hole in your soul are you trying to fill by having more people like

01:45:34.380 --> 01:45:35.500
your stuff?

01:45:35.980 --> 01:45:38.700
Yeah, that to I mean, I I totally get that.

01:45:38.780 --> 01:45:41.580
Yeah, I I don't you know, we don't need to have a massive following.

01:45:41.740 --> 01:45:42.540
Uh but at the same time.

01:45:48.810 --> 01:45:50.810
mom, I'm talking to you, Mom.

01:45:50.890 --> 01:45:51.530
You gotta listen.

01:45:52.810 --> 01:45:55.130
If you've got a neighbor, go knock on their door.

01:45:57.770 --> 01:46:02.570
No, I mean I I'm with you that we don't want to be too we don't want to water down um the

01:46:02.570 --> 01:46:05.050
science or or be too flashy.

01:46:05.130 --> 01:46:09.770
Uh um but at the same time, numbers matter in the sense that we don't want it to be zero,

01:46:09.850 --> 01:46:11.130
in which case it would not be worth doing.

01:46:11.290 --> 01:46:14.810
No, that's they matter in the sense that it would be nice to have more a bigger audience.

01:46:14.970 --> 01:46:17.050
I wouldn't I wouldn't uh complain.

01:46:17.700 --> 01:46:19.540
Uh I'll have to think about that.

01:46:19.620 --> 01:46:23.220
But I appreciate if you're listening now, and especially if you're getting to the end of

01:46:23.220 --> 01:46:24.020
this nonsense.

01:46:24.180 --> 01:46:25.220
Thank you for listening.

01:46:25.380 --> 01:46:27.140
Uh David, this was really fun.

01:46:27.300 --> 01:46:28.740
Um, I'll see you next week.

01:46:28.900 --> 01:46:32.820
Next week we'll have another normal episode with a guest, I assume.

01:46:33.380 --> 01:46:34.020
Sounds good.

01:46:34.180 --> 01:46:34.420
Yeah.

01:46:34.500 --> 01:46:34.820
Uh good.

01:46:35.140 --> 01:46:35.540
All right.

01:46:35.780 --> 01:46:37.300
Thank you everybody for listening.

01:46:37.380 --> 01:46:38.900
And uh hey, your two.

01:47:01.720 --> 01:47:06.840
Ponton Pontin Do Pontum Pan

01:47:07.000 --> 01:47:12.120
Pontan Do Penton Ponton Pont

01:47:12.280 --> 01:47:17.080
Ponton Pon Ponton Do Pont Pontum

01:47:17.560 --> 01:47:20.040
Pontan Do Pont Punning