1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,640
This is Evolutionary Psychology, the podcast.

2
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,120
Actual Evolutionary Psychology by Actual Evolutionary Psychologists.

3
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:27,920
Who is our guest, Dave?

4
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,680
It is Daniel Schnitzer.

5
00:00:30,090 --> 00:00:31,770
The great, the preeminent.

6
00:00:32,010 --> 00:00:33,370
Uh Daniel Schneezer.

7
00:00:33,530 --> 00:00:33,690
Yes.

8
00:00:33,930 --> 00:00:35,690
Uh what what is there to say about this guy?

9
00:00:35,770 --> 00:00:37,370
He's so lovely, uh, so funny.

10
00:00:37,530 --> 00:00:40,810
Uh research is is is absolutely brilliant, beautiful.

11
00:00:41,370 --> 00:00:45,530
He's really pushing the the boundaries of sort of like functionalist approaches to

12
00:00:45,530 --> 00:00:49,770
emotions, evolutionary approaches to emotions, particularly things like shame, pride,

13
00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:55,760
guilt, Um, and you know, there's a lot to unpack about how those work and th they're really

14
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,280
important and there's sort of a trope that like shame is useless, for example.

15
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,520
Um, and we really cover the ground of sort of the history and then also like what what's

16
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,360
the evidence and what's the argument for what's the logic for why we have this emotion.

17
00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:07,920
Yeah.

18
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,920
A lot of fun things came up in this conversation, whether self-esteem is bullshit, the

19
00:01:11,950 --> 00:01:17,550
three breasted woman from Total Recall, uh traveling, uh uh whether uh

20
00:01:17,790 --> 00:01:22,750
reading uh long uh boring books makes you a better person.

21
00:01:22,910 --> 00:01:24,590
Uh this was a really fun conversation.

22
00:01:24,910 --> 00:01:29,070
Oh yeah, you had sort of like a fire around well, what is that called when you like it's uh

23
00:01:29,710 --> 00:01:30,590
I gave him some stumpers.

24
00:01:30,830 --> 00:01:32,190
Yeah, you gave him some stumpers, yeah.

25
00:01:32,270 --> 00:01:32,590
That's right.

26
00:01:32,750 --> 00:01:34,430
And it was fun to kind of tackle those.

27
00:01:34,510 --> 00:01:36,030
Yeah, maybe we can have that as a segment.

28
00:01:36,110 --> 00:01:39,820
Like, Yeah, maybe we should do a recurring thing where we where we stump the guest.

29
00:01:40,140 --> 00:01:40,780
Stump the guest.

30
00:01:40,860 --> 00:01:41,180
Ooh, good.

31
00:01:41,260 --> 00:01:43,180
And maybe we can f dial a friend.

32
00:01:43,580 --> 00:01:44,300
Oh yeah.

33
00:01:44,460 --> 00:01:44,700
Yeah.

34
00:01:44,860 --> 00:01:47,420
And then we can give the guest a million dollars if they get it right.

35
00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:52,460
Uh well w maybe we uh quote unquote, we can get it.

36
00:01:52,620 --> 00:01:57,020
Well let's let's wait and see if maybe more people support us on Patreon and then we can

37
00:01:57,020 --> 00:01:58,700
use the Patreon funds for that project.

38
00:01:59,100 --> 00:01:59,180
Yeah.

39
00:01:59,340 --> 00:01:59,500
Okay.

40
00:01:59,660 --> 00:02:01,260
It'll be some dollar amount.

41
00:02:01,580 --> 00:02:02,060
Yeah, yeah.

42
00:02:02,380 --> 00:02:02,540
Okay.

43
00:02:02,860 --> 00:02:02,940
Yeah.

44
00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:05,740
It'll be a it'll be to the left of the decimal point.

45
00:02:06,070 --> 00:02:06,470
Yeah.

46
00:02:06,710 --> 00:02:07,030
Okay.

47
00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:08,150
All right.

48
00:02:08,470 --> 00:02:08,870
Enjoy it.

49
00:02:09,430 --> 00:02:10,950
Without further ado, Daniel Schnitzer.

50
00:02:11,030 --> 00:02:11,670
Yeah.

51
00:02:16,390 --> 00:02:16,870
All right.

52
00:02:17,030 --> 00:02:22,550
So today we are very blessed to have Daniel Schnitzer on.

53
00:02:22,710 --> 00:02:25,430
We were just going over a pronunciation of your name.

54
00:02:25,590 --> 00:02:31,430
Um, I I my name is horrible, Petra Zuski, and my dad has like three uncles, and they each

55
00:02:31,430 --> 00:02:32,860
pronounce it differently.

56
00:02:33,020 --> 00:02:34,060
Is that true in your family?

57
00:02:34,220 --> 00:02:35,660
Does everybody pronounce it differently?

58
00:02:35,900 --> 00:02:41,580
Uh in Spanish it's more uh uh common, but in in in Polish it would be

59
00:02:41,580 --> 00:02:43,100
Petroszywzewski.

60
00:02:44,060 --> 00:02:46,380
Oh I didn't realize your name was Pietrofkitting.

61
00:02:46,460 --> 00:02:47,100
No, no, no, yeah.

62
00:02:47,180 --> 00:02:50,780
No, uh the correct Polish way for my name is uh Pietroszewski.

63
00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:51,820
Pietroszewski.

64
00:02:51,980 --> 00:02:55,660
I went to Warsaw and somebody I checked in a hotel, and it was the first time in my life

65
00:02:55,740 --> 00:02:58,940
where they were like, I didn't they weren't asking me how to say it.

66
00:02:59,150 --> 00:03:02,110
And then I said, so they so I asked them, like, how do I say my name?

67
00:03:02,190 --> 00:03:02,910
And then they said it.

68
00:03:02,990 --> 00:03:08,590
And then I said, um, my then I then them were like, well, how do you say your name to me?

69
00:03:08,670 --> 00:03:10,030
And I was like, Petrozuski.

70
00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:11,790
And then they like stopped for a second.

71
00:03:11,950 --> 00:03:13,710
They were like, Well, it is your name.

72
00:03:13,790 --> 00:03:15,070
I guess you could say it however you want.

73
00:03:15,230 --> 00:03:17,310
So they were very, very kind about it.

74
00:03:17,470 --> 00:03:20,110
But uh Daniel, we're very happy to have you here.

75
00:03:20,510 --> 00:03:20,990
Likewise.

76
00:03:21,070 --> 00:03:22,430
Uh great to be here with you.

77
00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:28,600
Um, and we've we've had some people on, we've talked about anger and emotions.

78
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:34,120
Um, you study, as far as I understand it, what is considered

79
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,360
self-conscious emotions.

80
00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:42,520
Um, that term uh is that I think I even sort of came

81
00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,480
across that term most consistently in some of your reviews of the past literature.

82
00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,710
Can you tell people a little bit about what is that?

83
00:03:52,190 --> 00:03:53,550
And then there's two options.

84
00:03:53,710 --> 00:03:57,710
One is either, you know, how do you think about what you study and is it different than

85
00:03:57,710 --> 00:03:57,950
that?

86
00:03:58,110 --> 00:04:02,750
And then the other option is sort of like what's the history of that research on

87
00:04:02,750 --> 00:04:04,510
self-conscious emotions.

88
00:04:05,790 --> 00:04:09,630
Uh okay, those you ask uh many uh questions.

89
00:04:09,790 --> 00:04:10,670
Uh and it's a question.

90
00:04:11,070 --> 00:04:12,270
We're professional questions.

91
00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:14,340
I'm gonna give you 10 questions.

92
00:04:14,740 --> 00:04:20,340
I thought we were gonna talk about TV shows and TV diners and now you give me

93
00:04:21,700 --> 00:04:21,940
a question to you.

94
00:04:22,020 --> 00:04:22,260
Yeah, I know.

95
00:04:22,500 --> 00:04:23,140
Can I check my notes?

96
00:04:23,220 --> 00:04:24,180
Can I chat we sand?

97
00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:29,940
Yeah, we were like we were just chatting for like 20 minutes about nothing, and then boom,

98
00:04:30,020 --> 00:04:30,660
yeah, exactly.

99
00:04:30,820 --> 00:04:32,020
No, we have plenty of time.

100
00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:34,260
We can edit out you searching chat GPT.

101
00:04:34,340 --> 00:04:35,380
No, no, for s for real.

102
00:04:35,460 --> 00:04:35,620
Yeah.

103
00:04:35,700 --> 00:04:39,060
So I'll I'll check GPT if I uh exactly.

104
00:04:39,220 --> 00:04:41,300
But what's up with the emotions?

105
00:04:41,380 --> 00:04:41,620
Yeah.

106
00:04:41,910 --> 00:04:47,590
So so uh you're getting me self-conscious now, but uh the thing began back in the

107
00:04:47,590 --> 00:04:52,470
early days when I was uh a young boy, I guess.

108
00:04:52,550 --> 00:04:56,630
And Tubi grabbed me by the uh John Tubi Graphic.

109
00:04:56,870 --> 00:04:57,350
John Tubi.

110
00:04:57,510 --> 00:04:58,710
The the great John Tubi, yeah.

111
00:04:58,870 --> 00:05:04,070
Yeah, grabbed me by the by the shirt and he told me, Sonny, uh you're gonna study shame.

112
00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:07,510
And I said, Yes, sir, uh whatever you say I'll do.

113
00:05:07,990 --> 00:05:13,000
Um Okay, and uh the self conscious emotion, yeah.

114
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,960
So so your origin story for getting into this area was uh John Tubi told me to.

115
00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:18,680
Yes.

116
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,320
Okay, that's a pretty good reason, which is the best way to start any research project.

117
00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:29,640
So yeah, I started doing that, and the self conscious uh moniker is a

118
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:35,240
moniker that comes from uh psychodynamics and Freudian, I think, uh

119
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,400
ways of looking at shame.

120
00:05:38,010 --> 00:05:41,530
And uh there's a prehistory of this which I'm a little bit shady on.

121
00:05:41,610 --> 00:05:43,610
I and I should know much more than I do.

122
00:05:43,850 --> 00:05:48,090
But what I can say, there's a woman named HR Block.

123
00:05:48,410 --> 00:05:49,610
Uh HR Lewis.

124
00:05:49,850 --> 00:05:51,530
No, HR Block is the taxes.

125
00:05:51,770 --> 00:05:57,770
HR Lewis, uh, and she was a psychologist, she

126
00:05:57,770 --> 00:06:03,640
was a clinician, and she was of the idea that uh shame and

127
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,840
guilt were self-conscious in that um now

128
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:14,920
emerging with her disciple of uh or some some more experimental person who

129
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:16,440
took research from H.R.

130
00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,720
Lewis and translated more into the research context, uh Jun Tangney.

131
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:27,970
Her object of study is not so much shame and guilt, but rather the

132
00:06:28,130 --> 00:06:33,650
contrast between shame and guilt, like in free variation, uh,

133
00:06:33,890 --> 00:06:38,210
like two sounds that you can make in free variation.

134
00:06:38,370 --> 00:06:44,370
So, in some context, uh you can make two different sounds in

135
00:06:44,370 --> 00:06:48,050
a language, and linguists refer to that as free variation.

136
00:06:48,450 --> 00:06:53,160
And June uh was important in

137
00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:59,240
establishing uh differences, similarities and differences in shame and guilt.

138
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:05,400
Basically, when people feel guilt, uh they,

139
00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:11,320
at least in the American reports of the label guilt, they appro it it's kind of an approach

140
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,390
and make up and apologize and uh stuff like that.

141
00:07:16,710 --> 00:07:22,470
And the theme in shame is uh illusion, avoidance, um,

142
00:07:22,950 --> 00:07:26,150
and um uh escape.

143
00:07:27,670 --> 00:07:33,350
And uh she was very instrumental in alerting people to these

144
00:07:33,350 --> 00:07:34,550
interesting differences.

145
00:07:34,710 --> 00:07:39,280
Uh when you mess up, when you screw up, people feel people say that they feel shame, they

146
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,720
feel guilt, they feel embarrassed, and and we go back and forth with these labels.

147
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,480
Uh, although there's some for some reason, people they're

148
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:56,800
they tend to roughly match what we believe is the reputation management uh system

149
00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:02,730
to the shame level and uh imposing undue costs on someone that

150
00:08:02,730 --> 00:08:04,890
you value the guilt label.

151
00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:08,330
Okay, the all of this is boring and academic and no one cares.

152
00:08:08,410 --> 00:08:10,730
But uh they they're we're done with the episode now.

153
00:08:10,810 --> 00:08:10,890
Okay.

154
00:08:11,210 --> 00:08:14,890
They pay me to they pay me to dissertate about things that no one cares.

155
00:08:14,970 --> 00:08:17,130
So I'm um I'm inured to it.

156
00:08:17,290 --> 00:08:18,090
So I'm gonna do it.

157
00:08:18,490 --> 00:08:19,770
I love the verb dissertate.

158
00:08:20,890 --> 00:08:25,210
I'm gonna I'm gonna do it unless and until you you you stop me.

159
00:08:25,690 --> 00:08:31,600
Uh no we're gonna children tell me all the all to shut up all the time, so

160
00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,360
I'm I'm also inured to that, so you can tell me to shut up anytime and I'm happy.

161
00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:36,000
I'm happy.

162
00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:43,040
So the so so shame is about hiding, escaping the situation, covering

163
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:44,080
yourself up.

164
00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,920
Um guilt is about eva evasion evasion evasion is a good label.

165
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:48,080
Yeah.

166
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:48,720
Evasion.

167
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:50,560
So shame is about evasion.

168
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,280
Guilt is about apologizing and making amends.

169
00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,360
Is that a fair characterization of the distinction that had been in the literature for for

170
00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:57,680
a while?

171
00:08:58,090 --> 00:09:03,690
And yeah, and June was uh very important in uh uh recognizing these

172
00:09:03,690 --> 00:09:09,210
facts and sorting what goes with what, and saying that there's similarity that that

173
00:09:09,610 --> 00:09:15,210
in the general scene when you screw up, uh people may feel shame, people may feel guilt,

174
00:09:15,290 --> 00:09:16,650
people may feel embarrassment.

175
00:09:16,970 --> 00:09:22,010
And one question that she elaborated in her career is what are the conditions under which

176
00:09:22,330 --> 00:09:27,610
what functions, if any, these things have, and do they have functions at all?

177
00:09:27,850 --> 00:09:30,340
And what are the conditions that elicit these emotions?

178
00:09:30,580 --> 00:09:36,180
And her answer, based on her reading of Helen Lewis and her own research,

179
00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:41,780
is that shame is the poor cousin of guilt.

180
00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:48,500
Um if you uh this is the free variation, there are two elements that could uh

181
00:09:48,580 --> 00:09:54,010
two alleles that could uh compete for a uh place in the in the lousa in the

182
00:09:54,010 --> 00:09:58,970
locus uh of evolutionary genetics reference to make things easier for

183
00:10:01,210 --> 00:10:06,970
to use the sim very you you you you can you can feel one thing or the other thing in this

184
00:10:06,970 --> 00:10:12,650
context and they're more or less interchangeable except that they're not interchangeable in

185
00:10:12,650 --> 00:10:18,490
the sense that if you have a healthy attributional style if you if you've been socialized

186
00:10:18,490 --> 00:10:24,180
to and you had socialization is a big uh aspect of this theory, and

187
00:10:24,180 --> 00:10:25,220
maybe other things too.

188
00:10:25,380 --> 00:10:31,060
But if you had a good socialization with nurturing parents and uh a healthy way

189
00:10:31,380 --> 00:10:37,300
to disentangle that maybe you're not stupid necessarily because you failed the exam, you

190
00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:40,900
can correctly you know give yourself a break, etc.

191
00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:47,210
Uh, then you impute that uh unfortunate event to something specific about

192
00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:47,770
yourself.

193
00:10:47,930 --> 00:10:53,850
It's the self judging the self or some part of the self, uh judging the

194
00:10:53,850 --> 00:10:54,250
self.

195
00:10:54,490 --> 00:10:59,530
And it's it's very much what it's a very much it's very much a psychodynamic

196
00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:01,610
intra-personal question.

197
00:11:01,690 --> 00:11:05,280
It's how I uh judge the event.

198
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:11,280
So if I judge the event as reflecting poorly upon my whole self, and that's the

199
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:16,800
maladaptive slash pathological, pathogenic, uh bad and

200
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,760
ugly way to do it, uh the system s flips to shame.

201
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:22,880
And why?

202
00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,560
Well, because thinking oh bad dad, so my my daughter says bad daddy, bad

203
00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:29,120
daddy.

204
00:11:30,350 --> 00:11:35,070
If I screw up the exam or the whatever, I didn't tip the waitress or something.

205
00:11:35,230 --> 00:11:40,830
If I if I for whatever reason I my judgment of myself is bad daddy, bad Daniel,

206
00:11:41,310 --> 00:11:46,990
yuck, disgusting self, uh, I feel shame because it's very

207
00:11:46,990 --> 00:11:47,550
painful.

208
00:11:47,630 --> 00:11:53,220
And the pain of the attribution makes me want to escape and uh hide,

209
00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:53,700
etc.

210
00:11:54,020 --> 00:11:59,700
And there's uh June recognizes that there's a paradoxical thing that Chef uh it's he's a

211
00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:00,820
guy, so it's very interesting.

212
00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:06,580
Sociologist at UCSB, he studied shame, he studied something he called the shame rage

213
00:12:06,580 --> 00:12:12,420
cycle, and he, in marital disputes and so on, he sees that you know, uh,

214
00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:18,470
I'm ashamed for something that I did, I lash out in anger at my wife and then

215
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:24,390
my wife is hurt and I feel additional shame now in addition to the baseline shame but

216
00:12:24,390 --> 00:12:30,390
now I have shame about the rage and I have further taint to my honor and I need further

217
00:12:30,390 --> 00:12:36,150
aggression maybe an honor killing in order to uh paper over the slide or something.

218
00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:38,390
That sounds like it makes absolutely no sense.

219
00:12:38,860 --> 00:12:41,820
I don't usually I don't usually engage in onorky links.

220
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:43,420
I have never done it so far.

221
00:12:43,660 --> 00:12:43,820
Okay.

222
00:12:44,140 --> 00:12:47,580
I think David meant the science, not the um but anyway, yeah.

223
00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:48,860
But it's good to know both my own.

224
00:12:49,180 --> 00:12:54,220
I was referring to the the shame leading to rage leading to shame model of how this uh I

225
00:12:54,220 --> 00:12:54,700
don't understand that.

226
00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:55,740
It sounds terrible.

227
00:12:55,820 --> 00:13:00,300
I mean, just if it does happen, but uh so just to just so we're on the same page.

228
00:13:00,380 --> 00:13:05,970
So self-referential emotions, the self-refer or self-conscious it's self-referential.

229
00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:06,610
I misspoke.

230
00:13:06,690 --> 00:13:11,810
So basically, it's that there is a there is a representation of not only the social world

231
00:13:11,810 --> 00:13:13,410
and others and how I feel about them.

232
00:13:13,570 --> 00:13:14,050
Are you nice?

233
00:13:14,210 --> 00:13:15,090
Are you good?

234
00:13:15,890 --> 00:13:21,730
For some reason, so far, which the theories haven't come up with or talked about, there's

235
00:13:21,730 --> 00:13:26,850
another set of uh attention placed upon the self.

236
00:13:27,010 --> 00:13:31,250
And then there's an evaluation of as I'm bumbling through the world, doing good things and

237
00:13:31,250 --> 00:13:36,660
bad things, there's an attribution to like if I I'm the source of this good thing or bad

238
00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:38,180
thing, how do I feel about that?

239
00:13:38,260 --> 00:13:43,140
And then how does that in consequence, if I attribute it a bad thing to myself, all of a

240
00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:46,100
sudden I'm judging myself if it's self-referential.

241
00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:52,020
And then there are these emotions when the detection of I've judged that bad,

242
00:13:52,260 --> 00:13:53,060
Dave, bad.

243
00:13:53,460 --> 00:13:55,380
That's a very good um summary.

244
00:13:55,540 --> 00:13:55,780
Yes.

245
00:13:56,340 --> 00:14:00,580
And there are good emotions and bad emotions, and this model applies to guilt and shame,

246
00:14:00,660 --> 00:14:05,590
the bad pair, and also to what Tiny calls alpha pride and beta pride.

247
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:11,670
If you achieve uh and you attribute to the self, that's alpha pride, uh, Jessica Tracy

248
00:14:11,830 --> 00:14:17,430
calls that hubris, uh hubris, the arrogant

249
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:23,270
variety of pride, uh, whereas if you impute the success to something

250
00:14:23,270 --> 00:14:28,560
transient, unstable about yourself, controllable,

251
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:35,040
then that's beta pride, slash authentic pride, slash achievement

252
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:35,840
oriented pride.

253
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,760
We're writing a paper on pride.

254
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:43,680
And there's not much of a question of why there should be these things in the head,

255
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,760
which are the functions of these things.

256
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:51,690
They they're universe or their referential frame is

257
00:14:51,930 --> 00:14:57,530
these things happen, there's an antecedent to these things, so the antecedent is king here.

258
00:14:58,330 --> 00:15:04,090
But moreover, uh Jessica Tracy, then in further models, she incorporates the social

259
00:15:04,090 --> 00:15:04,410
view.

260
00:15:04,490 --> 00:15:10,400
But Tanny says explicitly in some papers that um not only

261
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:16,400
these things are about the self, but emphatically she thinks that these things are very

262
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,240
much not about other people.

263
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,800
Uh any which is I think weird, but uh interesting.

264
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,440
Interesting, nevertheless, uh testable.

265
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,280
We have tested that recently with Mitchell Landers and Patrick Durkey.

266
00:15:34,210 --> 00:15:40,210
And uh yep, and um so okay, so and the the

267
00:15:40,210 --> 00:15:45,010
the data in the the data in support of these uh so-called attributional theories of

268
00:15:45,010 --> 00:15:50,450
self-conscious self-conscious emotions are mostly correlational.

269
00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:56,210
Uh, for example, they find correlations between your attributional style more more to more

270
00:15:56,450 --> 00:16:02,280
bad daddy goes with shame, and I should have studied more goes with guilt as they

271
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:02,840
predict.

272
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:03,880
But the teacher.

273
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,840
So individual differences and tendency to do these things.

274
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:07,480
Exactly.

275
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:07,720
Yes.

276
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:08,440
Got it.

277
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:09,080
Yes.

278
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:14,520
You know, it it's I guess it uh meshes with the clinical framework.

279
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:14,840
Right.

280
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,080
There's variation among people, there's healthier people with healthier attributional

281
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:19,640
styles.

282
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,600
And there's more pathological people, pathological, pathogenic, whatever people.

283
00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:29,890
There's an interesting, there's a very interesting paper of Tanyi on on the a number of

284
00:16:29,890 --> 00:16:31,730
papers on the correlates of shame.

285
00:16:31,890 --> 00:16:36,770
Fantastically informative and important work on the correlates of shame.

286
00:16:36,850 --> 00:16:41,410
And shame correlates with a whole bunch of interesting things.

287
00:16:41,970 --> 00:16:47,810
It correlates with suicidality, it correlates with feelings of inferiority, with feeling

288
00:16:47,810 --> 00:16:53,340
small, wanting to hide, um in the clinic with

289
00:16:53,340 --> 00:16:58,220
paranoia, with anxiety, with all the kind of all all

290
00:16:58,940 --> 00:17:04,780
items that you would predict uh if you adopt a more functionalist or

291
00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:10,700
adaptationist uh interpersonal view of this emotion, as in you screwed up, you

292
00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:16,220
emitted costs, and people are aware of these costs and now uh they

293
00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:21,250
recalibrate how much they value you, and that's uh fitness uh decreasing.

294
00:17:21,410 --> 00:17:27,090
And the question is how to evade detection, evade the their

295
00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:28,690
imposition of costs, etc.

296
00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:29,170
Okay.

297
00:17:29,410 --> 00:17:35,250
So let me let me see if I can s summarize what but put a put put a footnote

298
00:17:35,250 --> 00:17:38,210
that the evidence is is correlational.

299
00:17:38,530 --> 00:17:43,890
There's a few experiments, but the experiments were confirm in the confirmationist uh

300
00:17:44,210 --> 00:17:47,880
framework or uh things to confirm.

301
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,600
And we've recently f uh run falsificationist approach.

302
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,400
But yeah, go go ahead and we'll setting the stage for Daniel Sneezer to come in and tell

303
00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:58,440
everyone why they're wrong.

304
00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:58,920
Exactly.

305
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,240
So you've let you've laid the groundwork for the pre-existing research that has been done

306
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:04,600
on shame and pride.

307
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,680
And it's mostly it's descriptive.

308
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,950
It's, you know, shame is about David is bad, guilt is about David did a bad thing, Pride,

309
00:18:12,270 --> 00:18:14,510
there's authentic pride and hubristic pride.

310
00:18:14,670 --> 00:18:16,750
Hubistic pride is David is awesome.

311
00:18:16,990 --> 00:18:19,630
Authentic pride is David did an awesome thing.

312
00:18:20,110 --> 00:18:25,070
And this is coming from not an evolutionary functionalist approach, but more of a how do we

313
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:25,870
make people feel better?

314
00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:27,470
How do we fight mental illness?

315
00:18:27,710 --> 00:18:33,600
And so the thinking there is, oh, well, shame is bad because you're thinking that you

316
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,640
yourself are bad, that's gonna lead to depression and suicidality.

317
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,560
So we want to avoid shame, shame is bad, guilt is better, it's it's not about you, it's

318
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:41,440
about what you did.

319
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,320
Um so shame is a bad emotion, guilt is okay.

320
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,760
When it comes to pride, uh you don't want to be too arrogant and think that you yourself

321
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,760
are awesome, you want to attribute it to what you did.

322
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,890
So uh, you know, hubristic pride bad, um authentic pride good.

323
00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:58,170
I mean, it's even baked into the words authentic has positive connotations.

324
00:18:58,250 --> 00:19:02,090
So this is basically the paradigm where we're we're thinking in terms of good or bad

325
00:19:02,090 --> 00:19:05,930
emotions, in terms of mental health, not in terms of what their underlying functions are

326
00:19:05,930 --> 00:19:08,090
and why they exist, why they're in the head.

327
00:19:08,250 --> 00:19:13,050
Um, but we are now we are on the evolutionary psychology podcast, and we want to know why

328
00:19:13,050 --> 00:19:15,050
these systems are in the head.

329
00:19:15,130 --> 00:19:19,210
Uh and so that's where Daniel Sneer comes in and tells us why are these systems.

330
00:19:20,010 --> 00:19:23,180
I I I very much agree with uh platforming me.

331
00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:28,860
I've been deplatform, but you're platforming me, so I'm very happy and I thank thank you

332
00:19:28,860 --> 00:19:29,340
very much.

333
00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:35,180
But before I'm being I'm platforming myself about my my theory and Tubi's

334
00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:41,180
theory, I we should say that a public choice theory of

335
00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:46,300
why people do what they do, including ourselves, is the the more funding is needed theory

336
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:47,740
of everything of academia.

337
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:53,130
We are government employees and we do what they pay us to do, and if they pay us to find

338
00:19:53,130 --> 00:19:56,410
things we find and if they pay us to not find things we don't find.

339
00:19:56,650 --> 00:20:02,650
And um and the the what they pay and I'm not saying this dismissively, we uh

340
00:20:02,650 --> 00:20:07,690
everyone is an apparatus, everyone is uh government here in Academia, most of people not

341
00:20:07,690 --> 00:20:13,610
you not talented people like you Pinsov who made it in the real world, but uh

342
00:20:13,690 --> 00:20:18,890
and also smart people that but um okay.

343
00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:21,100
So everybody listen.

344
00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:27,660
So so so what so Tangni, and again, this is not this I I have high respect for her.

345
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:31,500
Tangni is being paid to do clinician work.

346
00:20:31,660 --> 00:20:35,900
And she I believe she does uh I don't know if she's a clinician or not, but okay.

347
00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:41,650
So um yes, exactly like you said, there's uh

348
00:20:42,450 --> 00:20:47,890
the if shame is associated with bad things, in the clinical uh uh

349
00:20:48,210 --> 00:20:53,490
scene, we want to help people to avoid bad things and to be happy.

350
00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:59,090
And it stands to reason that if guilt is associated with more making up and restoring the

351
00:20:59,090 --> 00:21:04,960
relationship and etc., Then maybe it stands to reason that uh and and

352
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:10,880
people in shame go crazy and kill their daughters or more more salary

353
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,320
they kill themselves or they harm their wives, etc.

354
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,960
It stands to reason that you want to fix that.

355
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,800
But but so so maybe there's a link between the what they pay you for and what you

356
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:30,610
find, And uh, but like you said, also it's important to note that one big goal of the

357
00:21:30,610 --> 00:21:35,090
clinical work on this is to remove or minimize the experience of shame.

358
00:21:35,170 --> 00:21:39,090
So, shame is a bad thing, uh, it's not a messenger of bad news.

359
00:21:39,330 --> 00:21:42,130
It there's an analogy straightforward with the physical pain system.

360
00:21:42,290 --> 00:21:46,770
Uh, you feel pain, you pay you take painkillers, but actually, physical pain is a highly

361
00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:47,970
organized adaptation.

362
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:50,860
The bad thing is the damage to the tissue.

363
00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:54,380
And if you don't have physical pain, you die young because you're harming, you're burning

364
00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:57,180
yourself and you're not removing your hand.

365
00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:00,460
And so there's a I think there's a direct analogy with that.

366
00:22:00,620 --> 00:22:05,820
And in the clinical context, if you um they want to get rid of the bad stuff and shame is

367
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:11,670
in the ledger of the bad stuff, but okay, now I can platform myself, and uh but but but

368
00:22:11,670 --> 00:22:17,670
we believe that sh shame is not the bad thing but the the bad thing is the consequences of

369
00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:23,110
being demoted uh in the representation of value in the heads of other people when

370
00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:28,550
information reaches their brain and those are badly sorry let's unpack that so th the the

371
00:22:28,550 --> 00:22:34,420
representation of value in other people's brains is being demoted when you

372
00:22:34,420 --> 00:22:35,060
feel shame.

373
00:22:35,220 --> 00:22:38,580
So what what let's unpack all what is a representation of value?

374
00:22:38,740 --> 00:22:40,660
What makes it go up or down?

375
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:47,940
Okay, so uh Tubi and Lida got a grant in 2005, the

376
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:54,020
grant in NIH to do explore uh their brilliant ideas that they had since the 90s,

377
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:58,500
or perhaps since they were born, because they came to the world with all the knowledge.

378
00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:03,910
And uh there was uh there was a lot of work in our lab, this the

379
00:23:03,910 --> 00:23:09,910
CPUCSB lab under Tubion Lida and and our and other labs too, but but uh

380
00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:15,510
the idea is that the brain has machinery for um

381
00:23:16,150 --> 00:23:21,590
things, events, states of affairs, partners, anything, pretty much anything has

382
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:26,710
positive, negative, or neutral effects on the probability that your genes will replicate in

383
00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:32,600
the long term, and we expect um organisms designed by selection to have

384
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:38,840
ways to capture the goods and to like the okay I I I I I I

385
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:44,600
am usually okay like the standard uh the the JAS standard

386
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:50,760
accentuate the positives eliminate the negatives uh it's a nineteen forty Bing Crosby

387
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,470
I think uh we can put it in the show notes.

388
00:23:55,550 --> 00:23:57,150
Yeah, there's a lot that'll be great.

389
00:23:57,310 --> 00:24:00,910
I'm trying to be weedy because I think people are trying to be weedy in these things, but

390
00:24:00,990 --> 00:24:01,630
uh I don't know.

391
00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:02,830
Tell me anime.

392
00:24:03,390 --> 00:24:04,590
Can I can I pause real quick?

393
00:24:04,750 --> 00:24:09,550
So, like um so like for example, Daniel, if you're a really good cook and it's easier for

394
00:24:09,550 --> 00:24:15,550
you to cook and like get food than it is for me, and you're just really good at it, um

395
00:24:15,870 --> 00:24:20,060
you're and there's sort of positive externalities for me.

396
00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:25,180
Um, whether it's sort of reciprocal or it's just a positive externality or a mutualism.

397
00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:29,580
We sort of talked about that on the podcast, but sort of I'm going through the world, sort

398
00:24:29,580 --> 00:24:35,420
of looking for the events, as you put it, or attributes of people that are

399
00:24:35,420 --> 00:24:37,580
sort of more beneficial to me.

400
00:24:37,660 --> 00:24:41,500
And I should be designed by natural selection, or my mechanisms precisely, should be

401
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:47,450
designed to value aspects of you or you compared to David, for example, if you have

402
00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:50,570
more of these things or you have this thing and David doesn't have any.

403
00:24:52,170 --> 00:24:53,930
So uh is that is that right?

404
00:24:54,330 --> 00:24:55,370
Well let me back up.

405
00:24:55,450 --> 00:24:59,050
So so we first have the broader concept of value, which is just anything that has a

406
00:24:59,050 --> 00:25:02,970
positive or negative effect on the fitness of the valuer, right?

407
00:25:03,050 --> 00:25:09,000
That natural selection designed our value systems to uh track fitness regularities,

408
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,880
stuff that promoted our fitness ancestrally will have value to us in the present moment.

409
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:20,280
And so anything can have value from a desk to a chair to a piece of food to

410
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,920
a predator will have highly low value.

411
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,360
A potential disease will have really negative value.

412
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,240
An attractive mate might have really positive value.

413
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:32,170
Um, a beautiful landscape might have really positive value.

414
00:25:32,250 --> 00:25:34,890
So that's just the broader concept of value can apply to anything.

415
00:25:35,050 --> 00:25:40,410
But within that broader subset, we can look at people and say, does this person have

416
00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:42,650
positive or negative value for me?

417
00:25:42,890 --> 00:25:47,530
Is this the type of person that would have positive that would have had positive fitness

418
00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:48,410
consequences?

419
00:25:48,970 --> 00:25:49,210
Yeah.

420
00:25:49,370 --> 00:25:51,450
Positive fitness affordances for me.

421
00:25:51,610 --> 00:25:57,440
Um, and if so, uh I want to spend more time with that person and try to get some of

422
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,040
those benefits from that person.

423
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:04,960
If this is person has low fitness value to me or would have ancestral or has cues of low

424
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,120
fitness value, um, then I want to avoid that person, stay away from them, etc.

425
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:10,960
Is that a good summary of the way you're thinking about it?

426
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:12,080
That's a great summary, yes.

427
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:12,400
Okay.

428
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:18,000
And so there is a very rich and uh complex, we believe, uh, psychology for imputing value,

429
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,320
positive or negative, to other people.

430
00:26:20,730 --> 00:26:26,730
And some elements of value computation may be similar across domains, but

431
00:26:28,890 --> 00:26:34,650
a workhorse or a or a part of the identity of

432
00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:40,490
F-Syche is if Psych spent, I think, I don't know, just to pull the number out of my

433
00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:46,260
head, 50% or 70%, I think a huge part of F EP work,

434
00:26:46,420 --> 00:26:48,740
F-Syc work, is on value computation.

435
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:55,060
Mate value and partner value and landscape value, food value.

436
00:26:55,940 --> 00:27:01,460
And there are specificities in how the mind computes the value of people

437
00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:07,950
or partners, like Lida is fond of saying, if I evaluate uh John as

438
00:27:07,950 --> 00:27:13,150
a mate the way I would evaluate a piece of food, then I would take the cue of richness

439
00:27:13,230 --> 00:27:15,470
that's that's proper to do for foods.

440
00:27:15,550 --> 00:27:20,990
Uh richness may be a cue to fat content, uh which is important for important nutrient.

441
00:27:21,070 --> 00:27:26,430
Uh but if I apply that cue to computing the value of people, then that's that's doesn't

442
00:27:26,510 --> 00:27:26,590
work.

443
00:27:27,070 --> 00:27:28,910
You don't want to eat your mate and copulate with your food.

444
00:27:29,150 --> 00:27:29,710
That would be disaster.

445
00:27:30,510 --> 00:27:34,510
Or what Leah said is I would have married a uh she she put it succinctly, is I would have

446
00:27:34,510 --> 00:27:35,470
married a chocolate bar.

447
00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:36,940
I would have married a chocolate bar.

448
00:27:37,020 --> 00:27:37,500
Yes, that's right.

449
00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:42,300
And the argument there is the argument there is that value is not just general, there are

450
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:44,460
domain-specific uh values.

451
00:27:44,540 --> 00:27:49,020
So what's what makes a food value valuable is going to be different than what makes a mate

452
00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:53,820
valuable, which will be different than what makes, say, an ally valuable, or a piece of

453
00:27:53,820 --> 00:27:56,140
furniture valuable, or a landscape valuable.

454
00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:59,660
So we have domain-specific criteria for evaluating things.

455
00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:00,060
Right.

456
00:28:00,140 --> 00:28:04,060
And just to say out loud, and this is I feel like we're recapitulating the CP, we're like

457
00:28:04,060 --> 00:28:06,130
taking first principles here, like Big Bang.

458
00:28:06,290 --> 00:28:11,410
But the evaluation of value has been something traditionally, and you guys can tell me if

459
00:28:11,410 --> 00:28:15,170
you agree with this, has been very much sort of an instinct blindness in psychology.

460
00:28:15,250 --> 00:28:20,290
And I think taking an evolutionary approach, the idea that the software or the evolved

461
00:28:20,290 --> 00:28:26,290
organism needs to compute value is something that it's very hard to think when you're

462
00:28:26,290 --> 00:28:29,570
just the organism itself and you're just like, well, of course, like, you know, things are

463
00:28:29,570 --> 00:28:31,040
beautiful, like this is beautiful.

464
00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:31,760
I like food.

465
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:32,640
This tastes good.

466
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:33,440
Well, why is that?

467
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:33,920
Why is that?

468
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:34,960
Well, it just is, right?

469
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:40,480
So taking an evolutionary approach forces you to, um, and this is very much the tube point,

470
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,320
not take anything for granted.

471
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,040
We talked about this, we had Debon and we talked about that a lot.

472
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,880
Like you don't, and so why is it good?

473
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,880
It's because there's some valueslash corresponding outcome in the world that corresponds to

474
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:53,840
to fitness, right?

475
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,950
So like water, nutrients, um, surviving, having social support, et cetera,

476
00:29:00,030 --> 00:29:00,510
et cetera.

477
00:29:00,590 --> 00:29:00,990
So yeah.

478
00:29:01,310 --> 00:29:01,550
Yeah.

479
00:29:01,790 --> 00:29:02,190
Exactly.

480
00:29:02,270 --> 00:29:02,590
Yeah.

481
00:29:03,230 --> 00:29:05,070
There's no objective value there's in addition to the same thing.

482
00:29:05,310 --> 00:29:06,750
So we just established value.

483
00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:07,230
Yep.

484
00:29:07,630 --> 00:29:11,310
And we have people, so not only value in general, but value of people.

485
00:29:11,470 --> 00:29:11,790
Okay.

486
00:29:11,950 --> 00:29:13,230
So we have those building blocks.

487
00:29:13,390 --> 00:29:14,670
What do you do with those building blocks?

488
00:29:14,750 --> 00:29:16,270
How does shame fit into this?

489
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:22,760
Well, so uh once you have that in place or co-evolving with the psychology of

490
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:28,360
value, you have a number of adaptive problems that arise from the existence of this

491
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:34,360
machinery and you know uh promoting the higher value in

492
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:35,640
the brains of other people.

493
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,310
Um, so like if you can evaluate me.

494
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:46,550
So Daniel, the moment that like the software is in you to evaluate other agents according

495
00:29:46,550 --> 00:29:49,830
to like what value they have, that's a problem for me now.

496
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:55,590
Because I don't want to be in your category of a bad

497
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:56,550
person.

498
00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:57,510
Right.

499
00:29:57,590 --> 00:30:02,620
That would be design so if you if you have view me as low value, or if everyone in my

500
00:30:02,620 --> 00:30:07,820
social environment views me as a low value social partner, that is catastrophic for my

501
00:30:07,820 --> 00:30:08,300
fitness.

502
00:30:08,380 --> 00:30:10,940
It's equivalent than to death.

503
00:30:11,020 --> 00:30:13,580
Um even perhaps even worse than than death.

504
00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:17,420
You know, no one's going to want to mate with me, no one's want going to want to help me or

505
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:20,220
take my side or support me in any way.

506
00:30:20,380 --> 00:30:22,860
Um so that is a huge fitness cost.

507
00:30:22,940 --> 00:30:25,420
So the what you're talking about is a really big adaptive problem.

508
00:30:25,580 --> 00:30:29,580
How do I make others in my social uh environment value me?

509
00:30:30,490 --> 00:30:32,170
It's yes, very much so.

510
00:30:32,330 --> 00:30:37,930
It's a representation in the brain that is not just a pattern of beats in the

511
00:30:37,930 --> 00:30:43,530
brain, but it translates into very real consequences because these

512
00:30:43,850 --> 00:30:49,770
in in a simple model of how this value person partner value works, these

513
00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:55,660
uh magnitudes set thresholds on, for example, in uh altruistic

514
00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:59,820
in decisions on whether to be altruistic with other people, these things set the set

515
00:30:59,820 --> 00:31:04,540
thresholds of what's the highest cost that you would incur in order to benefit other

516
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:10,140
someone else by a given set of but a fixed number of benefits and reciprocal.

517
00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:17,810
So if I value you, Daniel Sneezer, I'm going to be willing to make big sacrifices to

518
00:31:17,810 --> 00:31:18,690
benefit you.

519
00:31:18,930 --> 00:31:24,770
But if I don't value you, then I am not willing to do much of anything to benefit you.

520
00:31:24,930 --> 00:31:28,770
And in fact, I might even do things that hurt you because your welfare just doesn't matter

521
00:31:28,770 --> 00:31:29,250
to me at all.

522
00:31:29,410 --> 00:31:29,650
Right.

523
00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:33,090
So I might just in going about my life, I might bump into you or step on your whatever.

524
00:31:33,170 --> 00:31:34,770
You have low value to me, so who cares?

525
00:31:34,930 --> 00:31:38,530
But if I really value you, I'm going to, you know, avoid stepping on you and bumping into

526
00:31:38,530 --> 00:31:38,610
you.

527
00:31:38,690 --> 00:31:40,770
I'm going to do things to help you if I can.

528
00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:45,730
If I can benefit you really highly at a low cost to myself, I'm going to do that.

529
00:31:46,290 --> 00:31:50,040
And even if I could if I can benefit you really highly at a high cost myself, I might even

530
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,040
do that because you're just so valuable to me.

531
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,720
So it's so uh how much we value people directly translates into how we treat them, into the

532
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,840
things we actually do uh in in the world that affect them.

533
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:01,720
Yes.

534
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:07,240
In in a toy model of this uh value variable uh these this runs in theory from minus

535
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,790
infinite to plus infinite If I value you positively, I'm willing to sacrifice for your

536
00:32:11,790 --> 00:32:12,190
welfare.

537
00:32:12,430 --> 00:32:17,470
If I value you at exactly zero, I'm not willing to lift a finger to save your life if

538
00:32:17,470 --> 00:32:18,670
you're drowning, for example.

539
00:32:18,830 --> 00:32:22,830
If if I could spend one penny to save your life and the life of your family, etc.

540
00:32:23,150 --> 00:32:25,950
I wouldn't if I value you at exactly zero.

541
00:32:26,110 --> 00:32:28,270
But I wouldn't spitefully impose costs on you.

542
00:32:28,350 --> 00:32:33,320
If I value you negatively, uh, I would pay costs uh in order to harm you.

543
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,560
There's a genre of YouTube videos where people key the Lamborghinis of other people out of

544
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:37,960
envy.

545
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,560
And envy is a spiteful emotion.

546
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,800
Some people are paying the cost, the risk of going to jail in order to impose costs on the

547
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:44,520
enemy or the rival.

548
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,440
So that would be a case of negative value.

549
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,720
So like I'd yeah, I'd be willing to I'd be willing to make a sacrifice to hurt you when we

550
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:52,920
both wind up worse off.

551
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,840
But because you're more worse off than me, I'm gonna do it because that's how much I hate

552
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:57,000
you.

553
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,890
So that that would correspond to something like hatred or envy or something like that.

554
00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:00,930
Yeah, exactly.

555
00:33:01,170 --> 00:33:01,490
Okay.

556
00:33:01,650 --> 00:33:06,930
Uh so I uh go to go back to shame, I screw the it's it's a two person game.

557
00:33:07,090 --> 00:33:09,650
The minimal game is kind of a two person game.

558
00:33:09,810 --> 00:33:15,570
So i i in the sh in the in the tiny story it's a maybe it's a one person game,

559
00:33:15,650 --> 00:33:21,010
you're solitary in the island, you didn't live up to your ego ideals or something like

560
00:33:21,010 --> 00:33:21,250
that.

561
00:33:21,410 --> 00:33:22,180
You feel shame.

562
00:33:22,260 --> 00:33:26,980
You say bad daddy, bad Daniel, and you feel shame because you're you are the judge, you are

563
00:33:26,980 --> 00:33:28,340
the judge of yourself.

564
00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:34,740
Uh, but but here in this story, it's a two-person game where uh Daniel screws up uh somehow

565
00:33:34,740 --> 00:33:37,380
in tennis or in cooking or in whatever.

566
00:33:37,620 --> 00:33:41,300
Uh David David learns about this information.

567
00:33:41,460 --> 00:33:47,220
They used you guys used to value my welfare at 50% as highly as your own

568
00:33:47,220 --> 00:33:47,700
welfare.

569
00:33:47,860 --> 00:33:53,750
That is to say that in this toy model, you were willing to spend a maximum of five bucks

570
00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:59,590
in order to benefit me by 10 bucks, or that you required um only

571
00:33:59,910 --> 00:34:05,670
five bucks when you're imposing uh um uh you're

572
00:34:05,670 --> 00:34:10,150
requiring a minimum of five bucks in order to impose a cost of ten bucks to me in the

573
00:34:10,150 --> 00:34:11,590
reciprocal taking.

574
00:34:11,740 --> 00:34:13,660
Um, but you're valuing me at 50%.

575
00:34:13,980 --> 00:34:18,940
But if you additionally learn new information, regulatory information, that my I suck, my

576
00:34:18,940 --> 00:34:24,540
suckiness is higher, then you correspondingly downgrade that and that translates into

577
00:34:24,860 --> 00:34:27,260
less favorable terms of the relationship.

578
00:34:27,420 --> 00:34:33,420
Now for me, and that means I get fewer good stuff from you and I you guys take more actions

579
00:34:33,420 --> 00:34:35,100
that would benefit you but cost me.

580
00:34:35,260 --> 00:34:39,590
And so that's a bad thing for me because I'm getting fewer chocolate bars from you and I'm

581
00:34:39,590 --> 00:34:43,430
getting more patches in the face from you, uh, less supporting conflicts, etc.

582
00:34:43,670 --> 00:34:48,710
And the and that's not a good state of affairs for a creature that needs uh cost and

583
00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:54,710
benefits to allied the cost and and and uh collect benefits

584
00:34:54,710 --> 00:34:55,750
from the environment.

585
00:34:55,910 --> 00:35:01,590
And uh we we can imagine that in response to this recurrent problem, uh

586
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:07,220
there may have been selection for something whose function is to minimize the capturing of

587
00:35:07,220 --> 00:35:08,500
those bad costs.

588
00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:08,900
Right.

589
00:35:09,060 --> 00:35:11,860
And so perhaps shame is that machine.

590
00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:12,180
Yeah.

591
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:13,780
So if I can just sort of be, yeah.

592
00:35:13,860 --> 00:35:19,860
So we've got so the in the old model, it was that sort of like for some reason, we're just

593
00:35:19,860 --> 00:35:25,140
conscious of ourselves, we're self-judging, and it's it's sort of

594
00:35:25,140 --> 00:35:29,540
maladaptive and sort of, you know, especially shame is useless, right?

595
00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:34,390
Because it's just sort of like you're just trying hard on yourself, and we just want to get

596
00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:35,030
rid of that.

597
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:40,630
This idea is that the reason why we have a representation of

598
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:46,630
ourself is because that software allows us to

599
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:52,950
prevent or address social costs when

600
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:58,140
other people either have found out or might find out about

601
00:35:58,380 --> 00:36:01,580
something that would cause them to devalue me.

602
00:36:01,740 --> 00:36:07,340
So it's either preventative or reparative for this for a very

603
00:36:07,340 --> 00:36:12,860
specific class of situations, social situations where other people are going

604
00:36:13,180 --> 00:36:15,100
to value me less.

605
00:36:15,350 --> 00:36:16,070
Is that right?

606
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:16,630
Yes.

607
00:36:16,870 --> 00:36:17,110
Yeah.

608
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:22,070
And so one question then is, and maybe we can start talking about the data a little bit

609
00:36:22,070 --> 00:36:22,310
too.

610
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:24,470
And David, I'll let you go in a second too.

611
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:24,870
Sorry.

612
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:30,790
Um is uh I imagine one of the reasons why people don't think

613
00:36:31,110 --> 00:36:36,550
it's social is because of this sort of preventative aspect, right?

614
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:41,830
There's sort of like a almost proximate ultimate idea where sort of like if I'm alone in a

615
00:36:41,830 --> 00:36:47,600
room, I might um, and if I like, let's say, let's say I kill somebody in a

616
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,400
room, right?

617
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:54,560
Um, and I don't think anybody's gonna find out, but I still might feel guilt or shame

618
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:55,120
about that.

619
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,360
And I think there's sort of this toy idea, or like, let's say it's like I steal a candy bar

620
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,200
from a store, let's just make it less crazy, right?

621
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,880
And like I have good reason to think that nobody's gonna find out.

622
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,880
There might be individual differences, and maybe some people don't feel any, but maybe some

623
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,000
people would feel guilt and shame.

624
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:15,770
And I think maybe that residual feeling, even when it feels like there's no

625
00:37:15,770 --> 00:37:21,690
social consequence per se, might be part of the intuition that it's

626
00:37:21,690 --> 00:37:22,730
not social at all.

627
00:37:23,130 --> 00:37:23,450
Could be.

628
00:37:23,930 --> 00:37:24,570
Is that true?

629
00:37:24,730 --> 00:37:29,770
And then for people who haven't kind of understood the idea of sort of like cost benefit or

630
00:37:29,770 --> 00:37:31,930
like signal detection or error management.

631
00:37:32,090 --> 00:37:33,610
So number one, is that fair?

632
00:37:33,770 --> 00:37:39,520
And then number two, um, uh is my summary right that this

633
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:45,200
the the idea is that these are preventative or reparative emotions for other people

634
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,960
um uh devaluing you yeah uh yes

635
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:58,240
uh or no uh yeah no yes i agree yes uh yeah i i think the

636
00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:04,160
lingering residual feeling of the self it could be one reason why uh there's this

637
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,610
theory of the self Uh, there's an analogy with other adaptations, social adaptation with

638
00:38:09,610 --> 00:38:11,770
that adaptations that we believe are social, right?

639
00:38:12,090 --> 00:38:14,010
That can also be used in solo mode.

640
00:38:14,090 --> 00:38:19,370
And so Chomsky says that language is for articulating ideas, uh, a little bit of

641
00:38:19,370 --> 00:38:25,210
self-theory of language, and other people think that language is a complex machine for the

642
00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:27,820
sake of interacting with other people.

643
00:38:27,980 --> 00:38:29,820
So there's a little bit of an analogy there.

644
00:38:30,060 --> 00:38:34,940
Other emotions, social, we believe social emotions can also be deployed in solo mode.

645
00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:39,260
So imagination, planning, etc., are important components of these things.

646
00:38:39,580 --> 00:38:44,300
My suspicion, although I haven't done any study on this, is that the folk theory of shame

647
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:50,030
is if I ask my mom or my aunt or someone like that, I imagine that normal people might

648
00:38:50,110 --> 00:38:52,350
uh have the social theory of shame.

649
00:38:52,510 --> 00:38:55,550
Uh hey mom, why would you why do people feel shame?

650
00:38:55,710 --> 00:38:59,790
Well duh, when you screw up, uh you don't want people to catch you.

651
00:39:00,190 --> 00:39:00,430
Sure.

652
00:39:00,830 --> 00:39:03,950
Of course yeah, of course you destroy incriminating evidence.

653
00:39:04,030 --> 00:39:05,390
Like what kind of question is that?

654
00:39:05,550 --> 00:39:05,870
Sure.

655
00:39:05,950 --> 00:39:06,830
So they don't catch you.

656
00:39:07,070 --> 00:39:07,630
Duh.

657
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:13,680
Uh so I think my my my vague suspicion is that normal people think this um

658
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,880
have the social theory, and maybe you have to go to college maybe to learn the self-theory

659
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,800
of shame, maybe more fun.

660
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:25,200
Yeah.

661
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:31,600
Um and so uh early size on shame that I've done so so it's a

662
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,240
little bit like recapitulating the self-esteem theory of self-esteem.

663
00:39:36,550 --> 00:39:42,470
Uh in self-esteem, people found a correlation between self-esteem, how

664
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:47,750
I feel about myself, and all sorts of good outcomes, you know, hap happy people, richer

665
00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:53,270
people with more attractive mates and happy kids and beautiful large cars in

666
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:53,830
California.

667
00:39:56,790 --> 00:39:57,030
Exactly.

668
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:58,710
All of our problems will be solved.

669
00:39:58,790 --> 00:39:58,950
Yeah.

670
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:06,760
it's a it's a story worth of uh Tom Wolf, the great American sat satirist

671
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:09,480
uh and commentarist.

672
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,120
Um there's a guy by the name of Joe Vasconcellus or something like that.

673
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,360
Th they they saw correlations between good sel high self esteem and all sorts of good

674
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:23,240
outcomes, and they ran to say, Okay, we need a task force and we need to invest millions of

675
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:25,310
dollars in uh interventions.

676
00:40:25,470 --> 00:40:29,630
They run to the interventions, the college interventions, school interventions, and they

677
00:40:29,630 --> 00:40:33,710
spend God knows how much money in order to boost self-esteem.

678
00:40:33,950 --> 00:40:39,870
So I go to UCSB when I was a grad student, and I'm riding my bike to on the way to

679
00:40:39,870 --> 00:40:41,630
some department or somewhere.

680
00:40:41,870 --> 00:40:47,870
I see an art uh student holding uh a mirror with a

681
00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:52,620
with a banner on top of the mirror, and the the thing says, I'm you're beautiful or I'm

682
00:40:52,620 --> 00:40:57,340
beautiful, meaning it it's a s self-esteem boosting intervention.

683
00:40:57,500 --> 00:41:01,020
And if we do that, then everyone is happy and winning.

684
00:41:01,340 --> 00:41:05,660
And I'm I'm thinking to myself, what the what what what crap is this?

685
00:41:05,820 --> 00:41:06,540
I'm ugly.

686
00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:07,820
I you're not gonna fool me.

687
00:41:07,980 --> 00:41:09,820
I'm ugly, I'm not beautiful.

688
00:41:10,220 --> 00:41:11,020
What is this?

689
00:41:11,260 --> 00:41:12,460
What is this garbage?

690
00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:18,460
Okay, so all of these things, participation trophies, and this uh decade

691
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:23,970
multi-decadile uh intervention on self-esteem has the

692
00:41:24,290 --> 00:41:29,890
origins in this um uh iffy weak

693
00:41:30,210 --> 00:41:36,210
thinking that there's a self, there's a correlation, let's uh let's uh let's push the

694
00:41:36,210 --> 00:41:40,930
correlation and so yeah it's kind of amazing how much how much bad psychology has just

695
00:41:40,930 --> 00:41:42,720
infiltrated Western culture.

696
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,880
I mean, this idea that that we do things to to increase our self-esteem or to feel good

697
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,600
about ourselves and we need to make everyone feel good about themselves.

698
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,480
Like that is a really huge part of Western culture.

699
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,200
And it's kind of amazing how much that idea is just pervasive in the way we talk and engage

700
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:57,760
with each other.

701
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:58,160
Yeah.

702
00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:58,480
Yeah.

703
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,640
It's like there's a lot of like advertising too.

704
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:02,240
It's just this sort of like throw yeah.

705
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,840
And I just like to we had Ed Aikan on and he had this really good point that it's sort of

706
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,000
the uh the medical analog with pain is really clear.

707
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,150
And Daniel, you alluded to that earlier where you would sort of laugh if somebody said,

708
00:42:12,310 --> 00:42:16,470
well, you know, like we've done these studies, and like if a bone is broken or their lung

709
00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:21,190
is punctured, or you know, they're bleeding, uh, you know, their skull is fractured,

710
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:22,230
they're in pain.

711
00:42:22,470 --> 00:42:28,150
And so the way to make uh people's bodies better is to get rid of pain.

712
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:28,630
Right.

713
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:32,150
Like if you just gave them drugs so they wouldn't feel the pain, like that would be a joke,

714
00:42:32,310 --> 00:42:32,470
right?

715
00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:35,910
Of course what you do is you fix the problem and the pain, but you don't just give them the

716
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:39,670
painkiller and then just send them back out in the world with a broken bone or punctured

717
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:41,900
lung or, you know, a cracked skull.

718
00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:47,420
And I think that exactly the, the, the self-esteem, if Daniel, what you're saying is that

719
00:42:47,420 --> 00:42:51,580
the reason why self-esteem was tracking these things is because these were good things,

720
00:42:51,660 --> 00:42:56,780
like people who are healthy, people who have support, who have resources, uh, who are doing

721
00:42:56,780 --> 00:43:02,460
okay in life, it makes sense that their psychology has this setting of like things are

722
00:43:02,460 --> 00:43:07,250
pretty good, but that's not the causal element, just in the same way.

723
00:43:07,330 --> 00:43:09,970
And that's not like the point of leverage of changing it.

724
00:43:10,130 --> 00:43:14,770
Um, it's in the same way that like you wouldn't just change the pain level without

725
00:43:14,770 --> 00:43:16,370
addressing like the broken bone.

726
00:43:16,690 --> 00:43:17,090
Totally.

727
00:43:17,250 --> 00:43:17,570
Yep.

728
00:43:17,810 --> 00:43:18,450
Yep.

729
00:43:19,090 --> 00:43:23,650
Um so I have early studies showing.

730
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:29,560
so it's an amazing uh Geiger counter like thing the brain in

731
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:35,560
registering in different uh formats or domains all the time the the goods and

732
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:40,760
bads that are impacting your yourself or your uh um

733
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:42,840
extended genotype.

734
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:49,530
Um so the festivist, this thing where you you you error the grievances is a

735
00:43:49,530 --> 00:43:53,210
real thing that your brain is constantly like, these are the costs that are currently being

736
00:43:53,210 --> 00:43:56,490
imposed on me, these are all the good things, whether we're conscious of it or not, it's

737
00:43:56,490 --> 00:43:58,330
sort of always cranking.

738
00:43:58,730 --> 00:43:59,210
Yes.

739
00:43:59,370 --> 00:44:02,410
Um sorry, I lost the train of thought, but sorry, Jane.

740
00:44:02,650 --> 00:44:06,330
Uh more registering all the time and um

741
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:14,360
And uh so early, so the sh the shame that you feel in yourself very

742
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:20,120
closely tracks uh so you I've done studies where people

743
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,320
are put into one of two perspectives, the perspective of the person who screws up, or the

744
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,920
perspective of an observer of someone else who screws up.

745
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:35,000
And for each of 20 or 30 bad things like sexual infidelity and theft and bad

746
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,120
table manners, etc.

747
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,930
etc., I ask half of the people how much shame would you feel if this was true of you?

748
00:44:40,170 --> 00:44:43,770
The other half of the people imagine this is true of someone else, how negatively would you

749
00:44:43,770 --> 00:44:44,090
view them?

750
00:44:44,250 --> 00:44:46,250
A rough measure of devaluation.

751
00:44:46,490 --> 00:44:52,330
And what I find is that the feeling of shame that people report in anticipation, it's not

752
00:44:52,410 --> 00:44:58,250
uh shame can like many other emotions, shame can activate in retroactive

753
00:44:58,250 --> 00:45:04,040
mode if they if they have seen you stealing and now they frown at you and they tell you

754
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:09,560
you suck, uh they avoid you, they want to punch you, uh you feel shame, but also you feel

755
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,080
shame in anticipation.

756
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:17,400
Um and uh the idea here is that for behavior guidance, uh you

757
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,320
need a number of uh anticipated payoffs of the actions.

758
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,040
Uh, one is the personal payoff derived from an action.

759
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:29,530
Uh stealing is good, Uh stealing is a good thing because if I steal from you I get stuff

760
00:45:29,690 --> 00:45:31,450
and and that's good for me.

761
00:45:31,770 --> 00:45:32,970
Quote Daniel Schnitzer.

762
00:45:36,570 --> 00:45:39,210
We'll put that on a T shirt and interview team.

763
00:45:41,610 --> 00:45:46,570
Stealing is bad because if you catch me then I go to jail or you punch me.

764
00:45:46,890 --> 00:45:47,130
Right.

765
00:45:47,610 --> 00:45:53,600
And so um and so okay, the other thing I wanted to say

766
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:59,040
is cost and benefits are perhaps the most fundamental variables in all models of the

767
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,320
evolution of anything.

768
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:06,320
Uh, RB greater than C in kin selection, in friendship uh evolution, in parental

769
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,240
investment, in the evolution of war, in the evolution of anything, cost and benefits are

770
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:11,920
the fundamental variables.

771
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:17,920
So this is about uh how organisms evolve to estimate these Cs and

772
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,240
B's, and parts of these things are social.

773
00:46:20,770 --> 00:46:26,530
And so the feelings, these fluffy feelings, the genius idea that Tubi and Lida had, these

774
00:46:26,530 --> 00:46:31,970
fluffy feelings in the social domain or emotions are not

775
00:46:32,290 --> 00:46:33,330
pure fluff.

776
00:46:33,490 --> 00:46:37,090
They convey important information, fitness-relevant information.

777
00:46:37,330 --> 00:46:43,250
And so in these studies that I ran a number of years ago, I find that the you you ask

778
00:46:43,250 --> 00:46:45,570
people to focus on their own shame, their own personal shame.

779
00:46:45,650 --> 00:46:49,960
Don't think about anything, don't think about other people, just focus on your own most

780
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,200
innermost uh feelings.

781
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,720
And those most innermost feelings spookily track very strongly uh

782
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:03,880
the negativity with which other people evaluate you if you take actions X,

783
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,560
Y, or Z, uh very much in Goldilocks fashion.

784
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:09,240
And what one element of value.

785
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:14,430
So I started doing so shame, then pride, and other emotions, then value of food, then value

786
00:47:14,430 --> 00:47:15,870
of body parts and other things.

787
00:47:15,950 --> 00:47:20,030
And now I'm working more on abstract elements of value computation.

788
00:47:20,510 --> 00:47:25,390
The thing is that so Goldilocks is one element of value computation.

789
00:47:25,550 --> 00:47:30,670
You can imagine value needs to be computed just right or accurately, a different way to put

790
00:47:30,670 --> 00:47:30,910
it.

791
00:47:31,390 --> 00:47:37,320
If you overcompute the value of a watermelon, you are over investing in how much

792
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,840
you would be willing to trek in order to acquire that watermelon so that puts you in the

793
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:41,160
red.

794
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:46,280
Uh it would be weird if I like protected a watermelon like I did my son and like threw the

795
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,880
watermelon out to like and be like was run over by a semi truck or something.

796
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,400
You'd be like, that was dumb.

797
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,280
Why did he do that?

798
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:52,440
Yeah.

799
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:53,080
Exactly.

800
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,530
It's very important to get the values right evolutionarily.

801
00:47:56,610 --> 00:47:59,330
If you get the values wrong, your your genes are toast.

802
00:47:59,810 --> 00:48:01,570
Yes, there's there's two types of mistake.

803
00:48:01,650 --> 00:48:03,810
And so Goldilocks, uh just right.

804
00:48:04,050 --> 00:48:09,330
Uh, in the story of Goldilocks, the big the hot too hot bowl is not good, you burn

805
00:48:09,330 --> 00:48:11,890
yourself, too cold is your uh etc.

806
00:48:12,130 --> 00:48:15,810
not cooking the food, and there's a just right, and there's a just right for everything,

807
00:48:15,970 --> 00:48:21,620
uh, including for uh so for behavior guidance, so you're

808
00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:24,020
integrating two streams of value.

809
00:48:24,180 --> 00:48:30,020
One is the personal payoff of getting the piece of cake or having the sex

810
00:48:30,020 --> 00:48:34,820
act with that person or staying lazy in bed instead of selling, etc.

811
00:48:34,980 --> 00:48:37,140
And the other one is the social payoff.

812
00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:43,110
And in order for adaptive behavior guidance, you need a lawful, smart

813
00:48:43,350 --> 00:48:45,670
fitness promoting integration of these values.

814
00:48:45,830 --> 00:48:51,510
And so the idea is that the anticipatory feeling of shame that you have with respect on an

815
00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:56,950
act by act basis, for stealing, for becoming lazy, etc., may

816
00:48:57,190 --> 00:49:02,710
perhaps it might convey information about the actual consequences in the brains of others

817
00:49:02,710 --> 00:49:04,150
if they find out about these things.

818
00:49:04,310 --> 00:49:09,600
And the answer is that yes, the amount of shame, the intensity of shame that people report

819
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,320
for each of these acts very closely tracks.

820
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:18,400
It moves up or down in lockstep with the actual displeasure that other people report

821
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,200
if it was someone else taking that action.

822
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:26,800
And moreover, these things happen in many different places, in big societies

823
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:32,410
societies, in small-scale societies, very remote from each other, some of them

824
00:49:32,410 --> 00:49:35,290
off-the-grid, uh hunter, gatherer, foragers.

825
00:49:35,690 --> 00:49:39,530
Um, yeah.

826
00:49:41,210 --> 00:49:46,650
One other uh iteration is millennia ago, so we went to a cousin of the

827
00:49:46,650 --> 00:49:51,930
Hammurabi laws uh four thousand roughly four thousand years ago in modern day Iraq in

828
00:49:51,930 --> 00:49:57,620
ancient Mesopotamia, and uh the we have beautifully

829
00:49:57,620 --> 00:50:03,460
preserved incredible, it's almost a miracle that we have these incredible

830
00:50:03,460 --> 00:50:08,020
laws in the in the if then threat conditional format.

831
00:50:08,340 --> 00:50:14,020
If you um rape your slave, you need to pay uh

832
00:50:14,340 --> 00:50:16,660
X number of shekels of silver.

833
00:50:17,610 --> 00:50:23,050
If you kill a man, even though he hasn't done anything, you have to pay 66 shekels of

834
00:50:23,050 --> 00:50:23,530
silver.

835
00:50:23,770 --> 00:50:29,770
If your ox has sharp horns and the agent of the state told you to file their horns

836
00:50:29,850 --> 00:50:33,530
and you haven't, then the next day they run a mock, they kill someone, you need to pay 30

837
00:50:33,530 --> 00:50:34,490
shekels of silver.

838
00:50:34,570 --> 00:50:39,530
So those are in full fossil-like forms, those are

839
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:47,700
Those are artifacts containing an ancient lawmakers evaluation and the

840
00:50:47,700 --> 00:50:52,100
shame that people express for each of all of these acts, ancient acts from remote

841
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:57,860
societies, culturally extremely foreign societies, they track A

842
00:50:58,420 --> 00:51:03,990
the evaluations of other people and B massively cross-culturally,

843
00:51:04,310 --> 00:51:09,830
harmonically across many cultures, the shame in 15 small-scale

844
00:51:09,830 --> 00:51:15,430
societies track the devaluation expressed by people in each of these

845
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:19,190
15 small-scale societies, but also the devaluation expressed by people in each of the other

846
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:20,790
14 small-scale societies.

847
00:51:20,950 --> 00:51:26,150
So the shame expressed by the Schwar of the Equatorial Amazon

848
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:32,600
for each of these uh 12 different acts tracks massively highly the

849
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:38,360
interpersonal devaluation that people in the Mongolian step uh report for each of these 12

850
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:38,760
acts.

851
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:44,920
So there's a very strong um universality in how people evaluate

852
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,040
other people and how people feel shame about these things.

853
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:53,400
And again, shame is not a fluffy feely, it is, but it also conveys information that might

854
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,240
be useful in guiding your behavior.

855
00:51:55,570 --> 00:52:00,690
One one question, Daniel, is then are there aspects in which it doesn't vary or where it

856
00:52:00,690 --> 00:52:05,010
does var vary across so like I mean that's an interesting test of the hypothesis, right?

857
00:52:05,090 --> 00:52:10,210
So for just for example, like if we just have this arbitrary rule that like if I touch a

858
00:52:10,210 --> 00:52:14,850
gum tree, um, we think spirits will come into me for whatever reason.

859
00:52:15,010 --> 00:52:20,770
And so in in our local island, touching a gum tree will be devalued.

860
00:52:20,930 --> 00:52:21,170
Yes.

861
00:52:21,330 --> 00:52:22,770
Um but nowhere else.

862
00:52:22,930 --> 00:52:26,320
So in our island, I should feel shame when I do it.

863
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:27,840
People should devalue me.

864
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,520
And that's important for m uh this particular place, but not ever other places.

865
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:32,480
Are there things like that?

866
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:33,760
Yes, absolutely.

867
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:39,920
Uh so um don't quote me on this, but I my eyes glaze on

868
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,440
water in tears when I hear about cultural variation.

869
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:44,000
I don't care.

870
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:44,560
I don't care.

871
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:46,480
The short of it is I don't care.

872
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:52,830
Uh there's so much rich architecture that uh I want

873
00:52:52,830 --> 00:52:54,190
to look at that first.

874
00:52:54,590 --> 00:52:55,070
Sure, yeah.

875
00:52:55,550 --> 00:52:57,150
Like the hard thing is the main question.

876
00:52:57,470 --> 00:52:58,670
But variation is very important.

877
00:52:58,990 --> 00:53:04,110
But I think the key to understand variation is to understand the architecture because you

878
00:53:04,270 --> 00:53:06,030
have the lever to understand everything.

879
00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:11,470
And so, exactly like you're saying, if the shame machine is designed to minimize, to

880
00:53:11,470 --> 00:53:16,340
accentuate the positives and minimize the negatives, it stands to reason that it should

881
00:53:16,340 --> 00:53:19,700
track exactly like a good Geiger counter.

882
00:53:19,860 --> 00:53:20,100
Yeah.

883
00:53:20,180 --> 00:53:22,900
Uh these not everything is gonna be universal.

884
00:53:22,980 --> 00:53:26,660
There are gonna be arbitrary conventions because coordination exactly.

885
00:53:26,740 --> 00:53:28,740
Um and so that's that is yeah exactly.

886
00:53:28,980 --> 00:53:34,580
And shame does it so there's a there is there's there so value computation is

887
00:53:34,580 --> 00:53:35,140
generic.

888
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:40,050
Uh as Thomas Sowell might say it is generic and it's also specific.

889
00:53:40,130 --> 00:53:43,650
Uh there's a massive layer of genericness in value computation.

890
00:53:43,810 --> 00:53:48,770
Uh humans make a living similarly, uh far and wide, past and present.

891
00:53:48,930 --> 00:53:54,450
And so that predicts that there will be strong regularities in how people impute um

892
00:53:54,770 --> 00:53:57,090
values in and in and okay.

893
00:53:57,490 --> 00:54:01,490
Yeah, so walking around with poop on your shoes is sort of universally devalued unless

894
00:54:01,490 --> 00:54:03,570
you're an infant, as Paul Boone points out.

895
00:54:03,650 --> 00:54:03,890
But yeah.

896
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:04,920
Yes, yes.

897
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:10,040
And then there's uh local games and people track those local regularities too.

898
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:15,720
So eating with your left hand is polluting in India, and in our data, people devalue more

899
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:20,120
in India those who eat with their left hand more than in America, and correspondingly in

900
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:25,000
India people feel more shame if they eat with their left uh polluted hand in India more

901
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:25,560
than in America.

902
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:30,040
So there are these patterns of similarities and differences, and the different I think I

903
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,560
think value value is, you know, you have one hammer and everything is a nail.

904
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:39,510
My hammer is value, and value is a huge um lock to the

905
00:54:39,510 --> 00:54:42,470
mystery of many things in these systems.

906
00:54:43,030 --> 00:54:46,710
And so much of my work has been on value.

907
00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:52,710
So the um so I started expanding to many different things: uh,

908
00:54:52,950 --> 00:54:56,790
shame, pride, and pride is pride is the cousin of shame.

909
00:54:56,950 --> 00:55:00,040
So, same thing with many different cultures.

910
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:05,640
The pride is the emotion of advertising your greatness so that other people uh

911
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,000
value you more highly and demanding that increase in valuation.

912
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:14,360
It's not not just doing the I'm great, but also um making sure that other people

913
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:15,960
increase how much they value you.

914
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,600
So it's like uh it's like because we talked about anger.

915
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:24,650
So the idea is that pride it's not just sort of incidental window dressing of hey, a good

916
00:55:24,650 --> 00:55:25,530
thing happened to me.

917
00:55:25,610 --> 00:55:31,290
It's actually doing in it's changing sort of settings and sort of uh what should I

918
00:55:31,290 --> 00:55:36,170
ask for from the world, the physical world, social world, and I'm entitled to more now.

919
00:55:36,410 --> 00:55:36,570
Yes.

920
00:55:36,730 --> 00:55:39,130
That there's sort of common knowledge, or maybe to the degree.

921
00:55:39,290 --> 00:55:40,810
I mean, maybe we can start talking about some of the outputs.

922
00:55:41,050 --> 00:55:45,290
Yes, common knowledge is interesting in pride because uh this creates common knowledge, uh,

923
00:55:45,450 --> 00:55:46,170
we believe.

924
00:55:46,410 --> 00:55:51,900
Uh and uh yeah, exactly like you're saying, uh, the terms for the interaction should be

925
00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:54,700
more favorable to me if I really achieve something great.

926
00:55:54,860 --> 00:55:55,740
Uh right.

927
00:55:55,980 --> 00:56:01,580
I mean that that sort of runs counter to uh uh a popular cultural idea that we do

928
00:56:01,580 --> 00:56:06,860
things to increase our self-esteem or to feel good about ourselves, regardless of how what

929
00:56:06,860 --> 00:56:07,660
other people think of us.

930
00:56:07,820 --> 00:56:09,740
We might even say, I don't care what other people think.

931
00:56:09,980 --> 00:56:14,140
I want to write this book for me so that I can feel good about myself, that I did a good

932
00:56:14,140 --> 00:56:14,300
thing.

933
00:56:14,460 --> 00:56:18,450
I don't care what other people think about me writing the book, or I'm gonna I'm gonna get

934
00:56:18,530 --> 00:56:23,090
I'm gonna uh get this PhD because it's it's for me, it's personally fulfilling, or I'm

935
00:56:23,090 --> 00:56:25,970
gonna do this charity work for me, it's per it's uh you know, I don't care what other

936
00:56:25,970 --> 00:56:27,250
people think of it, right?

937
00:56:27,730 --> 00:56:30,450
Um what your data shows is that that's wrong.

938
00:56:30,930 --> 00:56:34,770
In some part of the mind, you are judging what other people are going to think of you for

939
00:56:34,770 --> 00:56:39,330
doing this thing, and you are going to be more motivated to do the things that other people

940
00:56:39,490 --> 00:56:45,040
uh judge you positively for doing right that there is a very tight relationship between

941
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:50,720
what I feel pride uh proud of and what I anticipate feeling proud of and and the status I

942
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:55,920
get from other people uh for for doing that thing and and you would not expect that

943
00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:00,800
relationship to exist if pride was just about me uh and not about how other people see me

944
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:06,960
right yeah that that this is since uh as the expert bull sh bullshitologist these are

945
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:12,670
um the trope that I'm doing it for myself and I don't care what other people say, that

946
00:57:12,670 --> 00:57:17,710
seems like bullshit, and that seems like bullshit relevant to these social games.

947
00:57:18,110 --> 00:57:18,270
Yeah.

948
00:57:18,670 --> 00:57:18,830
Yeah.

949
00:57:18,990 --> 00:57:23,470
Can I can I just uh can I say that there's a version of that that is exactly bullshit, but

950
00:57:23,470 --> 00:57:24,430
there's another one that isn't?

951
00:57:24,590 --> 00:57:25,870
Can I push on this a little bit?

952
00:57:26,030 --> 00:57:26,110
Yeah.

953
00:57:26,270 --> 00:57:30,030
Which is that I think when people are saying that, I think it's a smart evolved system

954
00:57:30,110 --> 00:57:34,350
that's sort of saying it's almost like it's sort of finding a status game where it's sort

955
00:57:34,350 --> 00:57:39,540
of like, I want to do this thing, like write a book, but I'm worried about people uh

956
00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:41,300
laughing at me and making fun of me.

957
00:57:41,460 --> 00:57:45,860
And I think the expression of like I'm gonna do it for myself and not care about what

958
00:57:45,860 --> 00:57:50,740
people think is the output of planning and motivational systems that are basically saying,

959
00:57:50,900 --> 00:57:56,900
I think I'm still gonna get status or some benefit to doing this, but I need to recalibrate

960
00:57:57,140 --> 00:58:01,870
which audience I calibrate my self-conscious emotions to.

961
00:58:02,110 --> 00:58:07,950
So in other words, like um, you know, I'm gonna actually I'm going to do

962
00:58:07,950 --> 00:58:12,590
well in school and I'm not gonna worry about what the bullies think about me.

963
00:58:12,990 --> 00:58:17,710
Um and so I'm gonna do it for myself is the expression of I'm gonna play this status game,

964
00:58:17,790 --> 00:58:23,740
but I'm in currently getting like the outputs of worrying about audiences that I don't

965
00:58:23,740 --> 00:58:25,820
think are in my long term interest.

966
00:58:26,060 --> 00:58:29,420
So I do think like there is a smart version of this, but I don't think, you know, the

967
00:58:29,420 --> 00:58:30,780
simple version I think is probably wrong.

968
00:58:31,100 --> 00:58:33,340
Yeah, that that that that's that's that's a nice I like that idea.

969
00:58:33,420 --> 00:58:33,660
Yeah.

970
00:58:33,740 --> 00:58:33,980
Yeah.

971
00:58:34,140 --> 00:58:34,300
Yeah.

972
00:58:34,540 --> 00:58:39,020
Yeah, that the that shame should be calibrated to not just audiences in general, but the

973
00:58:39,020 --> 00:58:44,770
specific audiences that uh matter most to you and that you're trying to um trying to

974
00:58:44,770 --> 00:58:48,050
impress or the specific status game that you're invested in.

975
00:58:48,370 --> 00:58:48,450
Yeah.

976
00:58:48,530 --> 00:58:52,690
And I think a lot of like the narrative of like, I don't care, I'm not going to care about

977
00:58:52,690 --> 00:58:53,330
what people think.

978
00:58:53,410 --> 00:58:58,290
And that's the beginning of people sort of like actualizing what they want of themselves.

979
00:58:58,450 --> 00:59:01,250
I think it's the expression of it's a hard problem, right?

980
00:59:01,330 --> 00:59:05,970
Of sort of like the current status game I'm in is not the one I want to be in.

981
00:59:06,370 --> 00:59:11,570
So in order to sort of like move out of it, I actually have to sort of like not take what

982
00:59:11,570 --> 00:59:16,300
the current group is doing and evaluating as seriously.

983
00:59:16,380 --> 00:59:21,980
And I need to like consider another status group or just pause it temporarily, even.

984
00:59:22,140 --> 00:59:26,620
So like if I want to be a scientist and I'm and I think I'm going to be good at it, but I'm

985
00:59:26,620 --> 00:59:32,380
around a bunch of people who are like making fun of being intelligent, that's a really bad

986
00:59:32,380 --> 00:59:32,940
situation.

987
00:59:33,020 --> 00:59:38,220
And there should be design to sort of detect that that I could do well, but if I follow the

988
00:59:38,220 --> 00:59:44,090
local social norms of this value community, then I'm I'm I'm sort of in trouble.

989
00:59:44,170 --> 00:59:49,610
And you gotta square that peg by either be like, well, I'm not gonna do science or bye

990
00:59:49,610 --> 00:59:51,050
guys, I'm gonna go do science.

991
00:59:51,130 --> 00:59:51,930
Wait, one or the other.

992
00:59:52,250 --> 00:59:53,770
Yeah, that's a great yeah.

993
00:59:54,010 --> 00:59:55,530
That's a great uh point I think.

994
00:59:55,690 --> 01:00:00,650
There there's a number of uh so to to introduce chaos in this conversation, I wanted to say

995
01:00:00,650 --> 01:00:02,570
something before and then return to this.

996
01:00:03,050 --> 01:00:08,820
Uh the the something before is that everything is value, and this shame

997
01:00:09,140 --> 01:00:15,140
contain there's a conceptual structure in value, just like there is, I think,

998
01:00:15,300 --> 01:00:17,220
conceptual structure in concepts.

999
01:00:17,700 --> 01:00:23,540
And this there's uh things that are like syntax-like, like embeddedness and

1000
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:25,380
hierarchical structure.

1001
01:00:25,620 --> 01:00:31,570
So um, So, for example, uh,

1002
01:00:31,810 --> 01:00:37,810
if I steal uh in the Heinz dilemma, if I'm I steal medication that

1003
01:00:37,810 --> 01:00:43,010
I cannot afford because I have some infection, in the grammar of infection, the worse the

1004
01:00:43,010 --> 01:00:47,330
infection is, the worse it is for me, the more the more shame I feel because other people

1005
01:00:47,330 --> 01:00:48,610
are gonna avoid me more.

1006
01:00:48,850 --> 01:00:54,340
But on the other hand, the medication in the in the the stealing medication for curing the

1007
01:00:54,340 --> 01:01:00,100
disease there's disease embedded in the concept of stealing and uh so stealing

1008
01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:05,780
rules the the rules and uh but in the

1009
01:01:05,780 --> 01:01:10,740
grammar of welfare trade-offs if i if i steal a medication because i had a bigger infection

1010
01:01:10,900 --> 01:01:16,180
then the benefit of that medication is greater for me so that should lead to less shame

1011
01:01:16,820 --> 01:01:22,330
so there's uh There's complex structure in value,

1012
01:01:22,730 --> 01:01:27,130
and so you can concatenate elements of different value systems.

1013
01:01:27,210 --> 01:01:32,970
Uh so I did a study in which uh, you know, the same study over and over and over, shame and

1014
01:01:32,970 --> 01:01:38,810
value, same same logic, but I uh concatenated with the food value of things, and so people

1015
01:01:38,810 --> 01:01:44,720
impute different values to different food items, and the yummy yummy subjective value that

1016
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:49,120
people think they would experience if they eat one watermelon, one strip of bacon, one

1017
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:50,800
almond, one onion, etc.

1018
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:57,120
It tracks the new the protein, the carb, the fat, and the water content of these foods,

1019
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:57,760
number one.

1020
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:03,920
So that's interesting because um you have some F FDA, uh not

1021
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:04,800
FDA, whatever.

1022
01:02:04,970 --> 01:02:08,890
Uh we're getting the values right or we're we're the our estimators are pretty good.

1023
01:02:09,050 --> 01:02:10,570
Yes as evidence of design here.

1024
01:02:10,730 --> 01:02:10,810
Yeah.

1025
01:02:11,130 --> 01:02:11,930
That's number one.

1026
01:02:12,090 --> 01:02:17,690
Yes, it reaches out into the world and it uh accurately cla grasp the nutrient control of

1027
01:02:17,690 --> 01:02:18,410
the food, this food.

1028
01:02:18,650 --> 01:02:23,770
But then in addition, you can once you have this value of the food, you can transport

1029
01:02:23,930 --> 01:02:27,290
internally to many different systems that operate on the b basis of value.

1030
01:02:27,450 --> 01:02:33,060
So the shame that I feel ex from you carries in it uh a s uh uh

1031
01:02:33,140 --> 01:02:37,140
a trace of the protein content of the food that I steal from you.

1032
01:02:37,460 --> 01:02:37,620
Right.

1033
01:02:37,780 --> 01:02:40,580
If I stole a carrot versus a hamburger, it would be different.

1034
01:02:40,660 --> 01:02:40,900
Yeah.

1035
01:02:41,220 --> 01:02:41,460
Yes.

1036
01:02:41,540 --> 01:02:43,060
So so that's that's a footnote.

1037
01:02:43,220 --> 01:02:49,140
And to return to the Dave comment of the changing the audience, I think there we've

1038
01:02:49,140 --> 01:02:54,340
run studies with landers uh more experimentally and falsificationistly

1039
01:02:55,620 --> 01:02:57,780
eron.

1040
01:02:58,750 --> 01:03:00,510
Popper would be very happy with you.

1041
01:03:02,750 --> 01:03:08,190
Pitting the adaptation is interpersonal against the attributional theory of shame.

1042
01:03:08,350 --> 01:03:13,470
And we've recently shown in the United States and in India that variables relevant to shame

1043
01:03:13,470 --> 01:03:19,470
and guilt interpersonally they very much predict how much shame

1044
01:03:19,470 --> 01:03:21,230
and how much guilt people report.

1045
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:27,520
uh, but variables relevant to how I interpret or attribute these events, they do close

1046
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:31,360
to nothing, uh, they do worse than nothing.

1047
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:37,440
And okay, so we have evidence in falsificationist uh mode that

1048
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:43,280
the evidence strongly supports this interpersonal view, uh, almost don't

1049
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:48,770
support at all the Oh wait wait no I th I thought I thought uh

1050
01:03:48,850 --> 01:03:52,770
evolutionary psychology hypotheses were just so stories and they were un unfalsifiable.

1051
01:03:52,850 --> 01:03:55,250
I don't understand how how how this could be happening.

1052
01:03:55,570 --> 01:03:59,090
You're you're you're telling me not only that they're testable, but that they they uh are m

1053
01:03:59,250 --> 01:04:03,650
uh do a better job of accounting for the data than other psychological theories.

1054
01:04:03,810 --> 01:04:06,130
That's sometimes sometimes I don't know.

1055
01:04:06,210 --> 01:04:11,760
Uh one study at least uh For for his part,

1056
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:12,320
Daniel.

1057
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:13,120
Yeah.

1058
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,400
Yeah, they can be useful, yes, I think.

1059
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:16,800
Yeah.

1060
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:18,240
Funding is needed.

1061
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:19,920
More fun and go always, yes.

1062
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,920
Uh so there's useful if they give us funding.

1063
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:26,560
So the idea is so they're smart, like these emotions that are sort of had been seen as

1064
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:27,120
useful, useless.

1065
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:31,920
The emotions are useful to navigate social interactions, and like you're saying, Dave, um,

1066
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:37,840
then the question is what can we use this interpersonal theory to interpret

1067
01:04:38,170 --> 01:04:42,970
um we should we should still pay attention to the effects found in the attributional

1068
01:04:42,970 --> 01:04:44,330
intrapersonal theory.

1069
01:04:44,490 --> 01:04:50,330
And I think there's a number of uh explanations that uh can be generated from the

1070
01:04:50,330 --> 01:04:56,090
interpersonal theory to make sense of findings that seem purely intrapersonal,

1071
01:04:56,170 --> 01:05:00,490
like the one that you um like when you're stealing a candy bar and nobody's around.

1072
01:05:00,570 --> 01:05:01,210
Yeah or something.

1073
01:05:01,290 --> 01:05:01,450
Yeah.

1074
01:05:01,780 --> 01:05:02,180
Yes.

1075
01:05:02,260 --> 01:05:05,060
Uh so I think a number of interesting things.

1076
01:05:05,220 --> 01:05:10,580
One, for example, is something pointed out by David Gilbert, uh Paul Gilbert, a brilliant

1077
01:05:10,580 --> 01:05:16,420
British uh shamologist, truly brilliant guy, uh, highly inspiring

1078
01:05:16,420 --> 01:05:20,100
guy, and and he says he's a clinician too, but more interpersonal.

1079
01:05:20,180 --> 01:05:25,940
And he says, uh, there's a feeling of inferiority, and um what is it exactly?

1080
01:05:26,350 --> 01:05:28,270
Yeah, feeling of inferiority and shame.

1081
01:05:28,430 --> 01:05:30,190
Okay, so so this is a big theme in attributional.

1082
01:05:30,350 --> 01:05:32,910
If I feel shame, I feel like crap, I feel inferior, etc.

1083
01:05:33,470 --> 01:05:39,310
And Gilbert says that women in abusive relationships, they

1084
01:05:39,390 --> 01:05:44,030
blame and blaming the self is a big uh attributional shame effect.

1085
01:05:44,270 --> 01:05:49,740
And he says that women in abusive relationships blame themselves, like in attributional

1086
01:05:49,740 --> 01:05:53,020
theory, but when they exit the relationship, they blame the other guy.

1087
01:05:53,180 --> 01:05:59,100
So blaming the self could be in the inter So uh standard textbook uh

1088
01:05:59,260 --> 01:06:01,260
intrapersonal attributional effect.

1089
01:06:01,420 --> 01:06:07,180
It could very very much be in the service incidental to or tributary to or

1090
01:06:07,180 --> 01:06:13,030
functional to interpersonal functions, namely deterring attacks, Uh if you're bullying

1091
01:06:13,030 --> 01:06:14,070
me, I b sure.

1092
01:06:14,150 --> 01:06:17,030
Sorry, yeah, it would my it was my fault that I didn't do the thing, right?

1093
01:06:17,350 --> 01:06:17,910
Uh my fault.

1094
01:06:18,310 --> 01:06:20,390
So it's sort of a it's e it's even really smart.

1095
01:06:20,470 --> 01:06:23,670
It's not that it's dumb, it's that it's sort of self protective.

1096
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:26,630
It's it's the b making the best of a worse situ a bad situation.

1097
01:06:26,710 --> 01:06:29,510
It's sort of like what can I do to minimize being a target?

1098
01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:34,950
I'm not gonna do things that like demand better treatment because that's just gonna recoil,

1099
01:06:35,030 --> 01:06:35,270
right?

1100
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:37,750
I mean, presumably that's sort of calibrated, so interesting.

1101
01:06:37,830 --> 01:06:38,470
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1102
01:06:39,940 --> 01:06:41,620
So we shouldn't try to get rid of shame.

1103
01:06:41,780 --> 01:06:43,300
Shame isn't isn't bad.

1104
01:06:43,780 --> 01:06:46,420
It's not a bad emotion that we we need to make go away.

1105
01:06:46,580 --> 01:06:50,420
We need to invest millions of taxpayer dollars into making people feel less shame and make

1106
01:06:50,420 --> 01:06:51,380
people feel good about themselves.

1107
01:06:51,620 --> 01:06:53,700
Shame is actually doing useful things for us.

1108
01:06:53,860 --> 01:06:55,460
It exists in our head for a reason.

1109
01:06:55,540 --> 01:06:58,420
It was selected by natural selection for a reason.

1110
01:06:58,500 --> 01:07:03,670
It's analogous to physical pain, just as we wouldn't want to eliminate people's ability to

1111
01:07:03,670 --> 01:07:07,830
feel physical pain, we wouldn't want to eliminate people's ability to feel social pain.

1112
01:07:07,990 --> 01:07:12,630
It is sending them important signals about how they are viewed by others in their social

1113
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:13,350
environment.

1114
01:07:13,590 --> 01:07:16,710
It has a function, it's useful, let's not get rid of it.

1115
01:07:17,110 --> 01:07:17,510
Yes.

1116
01:07:17,670 --> 01:07:23,590
And if there's any if a clinician wants to know what then what intervention you suggest to

1117
01:07:23,590 --> 01:07:28,630
eliminate the bad feeling of shame, the the straightforward answer would be: well, make

1118
01:07:28,630 --> 01:07:34,160
yourself great again, namely uh become richer, more

1119
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:39,200
attractive, have better health, and then your shame will be r

1120
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:41,040
aswaged or reduced.

1121
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:42,640
And how you do that I have no idea.

1122
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,760
But maybe a magic wand or something.

1123
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:49,600
Yeah, it's not so much I need to change the feeling in your head and and lower that

1124
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:54,400
feeling, it's what can I do to your situation in the world such that your feelings will

1125
01:07:54,470 --> 01:07:57,990
correctly represent the world and represent it as being better for you.

1126
01:07:58,150 --> 01:08:02,790
So, how can I change how other people value in your environment to make you a more valuable

1127
01:08:03,110 --> 01:08:03,910
social partner?

1128
01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:04,550
Right.

1129
01:08:04,710 --> 01:08:05,750
And yeah, and this is a good thing.

1130
01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:08,070
Find people who value you, appreciating what you can.

1131
01:08:08,310 --> 01:08:08,390
Yeah.

1132
01:08:08,550 --> 01:08:08,630
Okay.

1133
01:08:08,710 --> 01:08:14,710
So yeah, find people who value you, or if you're feeling shame, um, I mean, this gets to

1134
01:08:14,710 --> 01:08:15,590
like what the outputs are.

1135
01:08:15,670 --> 01:08:18,700
Like we talked a little bit, we've we talked about sort of what the eliciting conditions

1136
01:08:18,700 --> 01:08:18,780
are.

1137
01:08:18,940 --> 01:08:21,180
In anger, we talked about sort of what the outputs are.

1138
01:08:21,340 --> 01:08:24,860
And this also gets to like clarifying functionally what it's for.

1139
01:08:25,020 --> 01:08:29,820
We can talk about guilt in a second, but for shame, what does it so the idea of shame is

1140
01:08:29,820 --> 01:08:35,500
it's minimizing the costs that others might represent about me

1141
01:08:35,740 --> 01:08:41,100
by is it is it then there's a grammar of sort of like preventing

1142
01:08:41,100 --> 01:08:43,660
knowledge from from this happening?

1143
01:08:43,820 --> 01:08:45,500
Is that roughly what it is?

1144
01:08:45,740 --> 01:08:45,980
Yeah.

1145
01:08:46,370 --> 01:08:51,570
Part of it is uh limiting the broadcast or the leakage of negative information.

1146
01:08:52,130 --> 01:08:52,290
Okay.

1147
01:08:52,370 --> 01:08:54,530
So for example, it might be like introversion.

1148
01:08:54,610 --> 01:08:59,410
So like if I have a teacher and there's a student who I think is really smart, but they're

1149
01:08:59,410 --> 01:09:03,010
just completely introverted, like Erin Lukashewski's idea of like there's cost to

1150
01:09:03,010 --> 01:09:04,050
extroversion, right?

1151
01:09:04,130 --> 01:09:09,810
Like if I think, you know, I'm at home, my parents are abusive, let's say, and I'm a kid,

1152
01:09:09,890 --> 01:09:11,410
and I'm calibrated to that world.

1153
01:09:11,490 --> 01:09:16,160
I go into a classroom and the teacher calls on me, and I could be brilliant, but I'm like

1154
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:20,720
super introverted because in my head, the the world is just out to get me.

1155
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:25,040
If I say anything, I'm just gonna get literally smacked or figuratively smacked.

1156
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:30,640
And so that that might be like quote unquote a maladaptive sense of shame, but it's in this

1157
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:35,040
sense, it's sort of like it makes sense why that evolved psychology would have that setting

1158
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:36,240
in that situation.

1159
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:41,170
And that's for minimizing it's calibrated to minimize the cost of the home environment, but

1160
01:09:41,170 --> 01:09:45,730
it might not be it might not be correct objectively or ideal in that school environment,

1161
01:09:45,810 --> 01:09:46,210
for example.

1162
01:09:46,450 --> 01:09:47,250
Yeah, that's a great point.

1163
01:09:47,410 --> 01:09:47,650
Yeah.

1164
01:09:47,890 --> 01:09:53,570
Uh ideally the shame the system works frictionlessly and doesn't hallucinate,

1165
01:09:53,890 --> 01:09:54,050
right?

1166
01:09:54,370 --> 01:09:57,570
Carry over effects, but yeah, there could be things like that.

1167
01:09:57,810 --> 01:09:58,050
Right.

1168
01:09:58,130 --> 01:09:58,290
Yeah.

1169
01:09:58,610 --> 01:10:03,090
I mean I suspect like I suspect a lot of like the clinical stuff is the is actually evolved

1170
01:10:03,090 --> 01:10:06,440
systems for detecting when it doesn't work, right?

1171
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:11,400
Like I think it's probably it works really well, but it's this minority of times when it

1172
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,800
doesn't, that's when it becomes part of our folks psychology.

1173
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:14,680
Yeah, yeah.

1174
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:19,960
That yeah, I I can hear uh I did some therapy in Argentina because that's what

1175
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:21,000
Argentinians do.

1176
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:26,830
Uh like New Yorkers on the Argentinas are famous for uh going to a shrink and

1177
01:10:27,230 --> 01:10:32,990
uh and uh I I can hear I can hear a therapist say, uh, but your girlfriend

1178
01:10:32,990 --> 01:10:34,190
isn't your father.

1179
01:10:34,430 --> 01:10:36,750
Uh we understand that, Daniel, right?

1180
01:10:36,990 --> 01:10:37,390
Right.

1181
01:10:37,630 --> 01:10:38,510
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

1182
01:10:38,670 --> 01:10:38,990
Yeah, yeah.

1183
01:10:39,150 --> 01:10:42,270
That's like the home model, the model of sort of yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

1184
01:10:42,510 --> 01:10:48,110
And then and then there's another interesting case, which is uh kind of a dark side of

1185
01:10:48,110 --> 01:10:48,590
shame.

1186
01:10:48,750 --> 01:10:53,940
Uh I'm replying to something you alluded to and I'm forgetting what, but uh okay, something

1187
01:10:53,940 --> 01:10:59,540
like as long as you don't do as long as other okay,

1188
01:10:59,780 --> 01:11:05,700
so we have a study with uh Tess Robertson, and uh you can feel

1189
01:11:05,700 --> 01:11:06,180
shame.

1190
01:11:06,420 --> 01:11:08,900
There's a side of shame that is dark.

1191
01:11:09,060 --> 01:11:14,740
Uh, there's a guy who has a paper uh titled uh The Tortured

1192
01:11:14,980 --> 01:11:16,900
Feel Shame or something like that.

1193
01:11:17,460 --> 01:11:23,410
Um you can you can be made to feel shame if we

1194
01:11:23,410 --> 01:11:29,250
are if we are bullies and we maliciously are out to get you,

1195
01:11:29,490 --> 01:11:31,490
like you're a Jew and we are Nazis.

1196
01:11:31,650 --> 01:11:32,130
Right.

1197
01:11:32,290 --> 01:11:38,050
And we have the power to humiliate you or kill you, and we just like

1198
01:11:38,290 --> 01:11:40,930
to humiliate you because it's fun.

1199
01:11:41,330 --> 01:11:46,930
Um then people feel shame even though they haven't done anything wrong and they know that

1200
01:11:46,930 --> 01:11:48,210
they haven't done anything wrong.

1201
01:11:48,450 --> 01:11:54,140
But people in this kind of um malicious dynamic uh interpersonal or

1202
01:11:54,540 --> 01:11:56,860
intergroup, they can be made to feel shame.

1203
01:11:57,020 --> 01:12:02,780
And uh we have an experiment in which in a public good game contributions, um there's some

1204
01:12:02,780 --> 01:12:07,740
set of people who contributed everything, their private uh tokens to the public good.

1205
01:12:07,820 --> 01:12:12,390
So they know in their heart of hearts that they are good people, uh altruistic, whatever,

1206
01:12:12,710 --> 01:12:17,270
but they get feedback experimentally manipulated to the extent that no one wants to work

1207
01:12:17,270 --> 01:12:21,590
with them because they're cheaters and they're bad people, and people feel shame.

1208
01:12:21,750 --> 01:12:23,910
So that's uh another story.

1209
01:12:23,990 --> 01:12:24,790
But yeah, right.

1210
01:12:25,430 --> 01:12:26,630
In general, there's a niche.

1211
01:12:27,110 --> 01:12:31,590
Yeah, and that's a really good prediction, right, of the idea that it isn't really it cares

1212
01:12:31,590 --> 01:12:35,030
about the social world and what you can do about the social world.

1213
01:12:35,110 --> 01:12:40,480
So you know you did the right thing, you know you're a Jew in Germany, you didn't do

1214
01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:41,040
anything wrong.

1215
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:45,680
This is unfair, but it's the reality you're living in, and you got to deal with that.

1216
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:46,560
Yeah, totally.

1217
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:52,480
The the Geiger counter uh system of evaluating uh these

1218
01:12:52,480 --> 01:12:58,080
positively charged particles or value is highly tuned to the social reality, not to the

1219
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:03,890
cosmic uh objective reality, and and if other people are humiliating you or

1220
01:13:04,050 --> 01:13:08,930
uh out to get you dispossessing you uh

1221
01:13:09,490 --> 01:13:14,690
starving you sending you to the gulag etc the shame system ha

1222
01:13:14,930 --> 01:13:20,850
activates because you're having the social problem whether or not you in the eyes of

1223
01:13:20,850 --> 01:13:26,400
god or the lord almighty have done things wrong or right Right.

1224
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:32,320
The system is highly tuned to the very narrow set of inputs of the social evaluation

1225
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:32,640
system.

1226
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:33,280
Right.

1227
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:38,880
And it would be very bad design if it was attuned to cosmic moral rightness or or something

1228
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:39,440
like that.

1229
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:43,440
You know, so if I don't feel shame for being a Jew in Nazi Germany because I did nothing

1230
01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:45,360
wrong, well, uh bad things are going to happen to me.

1231
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:48,000
That's going to be very bad for my well-being.

1232
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:52,930
Um if I'm a gay person in a homophobic community and I feel no shame about that, bad things

1233
01:13:52,930 --> 01:13:53,650
are gonna happen to me.

1234
01:13:53,730 --> 01:13:58,450
So shame is actually doing things to protect me in the real environment that I actually

1235
01:13:58,450 --> 01:14:04,370
inhabit, not um independent of whether what I'm doing is wrong in some cosmic sense.

1236
01:14:04,690 --> 01:14:04,850
Right.

1237
01:14:05,250 --> 01:14:05,410
Yeah.

1238
01:14:05,490 --> 01:14:07,250
And Daniel, how smart is the shame system?

1239
01:14:07,330 --> 01:14:10,050
So, like in that example, I just follow up, but that's a great example, Daniel.

1240
01:14:10,130 --> 01:14:16,130
Like let's say uh somebody, so I'm gay and I feel shame, you know, because the local

1241
01:14:16,130 --> 01:14:20,930
social environment, but then there's like one particular place I always go where I'm safe,

1242
01:14:21,090 --> 01:14:25,400
you know, in the first couple times I go, I still feel sort of shame, but then I sort of

1243
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:25,880
warm up.

1244
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:30,520
Is there is there sort of like smartness to, you know, and I think we've all experienced

1245
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:30,680
this.

1246
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,600
Like some places we feel like status threatened and feel introverted and don't feel like

1247
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:35,320
expressing ourselves.

1248
01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:36,360
Other places we do.

1249
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:37,640
Do you have research on that?

1250
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:38,360
Have you thought about that?

1251
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:42,760
Like, is it is it can it be very context specific once it learns that it's true?

1252
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:43,240
Yeah.

1253
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:45,320
Yeah, we haven't published data.

1254
01:14:45,480 --> 01:14:48,250
Uh maybe 20 years from now we'll publish this.

1255
01:14:48,490 --> 01:14:53,930
But uh, we have a number of experiments with that, and Shame is highly sensitive to

1256
01:14:54,090 --> 01:14:54,970
audience.

1257
01:14:55,130 --> 01:14:59,370
Uh, it's like the uh Lukashevsky kind to whom

1258
01:15:01,050 --> 01:15:01,610
effect.

1259
01:15:01,770 --> 01:15:04,410
Uh we care about people, you know.

1260
01:15:04,490 --> 01:15:10,180
Uh Mary, uh there's a meme that Mary is good or nice, but what I

1261
01:15:10,180 --> 01:15:12,580
care in Mary is is she good to me?

1262
01:15:12,740 --> 01:15:16,100
And I don't care too much if she's good to you or etc.

1263
01:15:16,660 --> 01:15:19,140
So highly, highly self-referential.

1264
01:15:19,300 --> 01:15:25,300
And there's uh yeah, these evaluative systems are very highly self-referential to the

1265
01:15:25,300 --> 01:15:25,780
self.

1266
01:15:25,940 --> 01:15:30,530
Yeah, what I care about is uh val evaluative affordances to me.

1267
01:15:31,170 --> 01:15:37,090
Someone is good to the Pope or to the whatever yeah, I I care but insofar as the indirect

1268
01:15:37,250 --> 01:15:39,250
effects imp impinge upon me.

1269
01:15:39,410 --> 01:15:45,170
But uh so yeah, Darwin says that a girl who is highly shy in the in the world

1270
01:15:45,170 --> 01:15:51,010
scene is extremely not shy in the eyes of those whose affection she's assured of,

1271
01:15:51,170 --> 01:15:52,050
like her mother.

1272
01:15:52,210 --> 01:15:52,450
Right.

1273
01:15:52,610 --> 01:15:58,240
Uh uh Darwin says that uh so we have d st studies with supporting that idea.

1274
01:15:58,560 --> 01:15:58,720
Right.

1275
01:15:58,800 --> 01:15:59,360
That's really interesting.

1276
01:15:59,440 --> 01:16:04,400
I mean it suggests that like the trope of people feeling like they find their community or

1277
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:06,240
like feeling like they need to be validated.

1278
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:10,240
It kind of sounds hokey, it sounds fluffy, but it suggests that it's actually the

1279
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:13,120
expression of the system that that really has some teeth.

1280
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:13,360
Yeah.

1281
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:13,840
Yeah.

1282
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:14,080
Yeah.

1283
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:14,320
Yeah.

1284
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:14,640
Yeah.

1285
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:19,550
That's uh Mark uh Bangladesh paradox um that's very uh right yeah.

1286
01:16:19,870 --> 01:16:24,830
Can I can I share my my favorite uh example of the other oriented nature of shame from from

1287
01:16:24,830 --> 01:16:26,670
culture that I I recently encountered.

1288
01:16:26,750 --> 01:16:29,230
I found a fan so do you guys uh have you seen Total Recall?

1289
01:16:29,310 --> 01:16:33,390
The the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie where he goes on Mars and there are like mutants on on

1290
01:16:33,390 --> 01:16:33,710
Mars.

1291
01:16:33,950 --> 01:16:38,750
So there's uh you know uh a relatively well known scene where he goes into this bar or this

1292
01:16:38,830 --> 01:16:41,860
like I think it's like uh maybe it's a strip club, I forget.

1293
01:16:41,940 --> 01:16:45,460
Uh and there's this mutant and she has three breasts and there's this guy and he's like, oh

1294
01:16:45,540 --> 01:16:47,300
baby, you made me wish I had three hands.

1295
01:16:47,460 --> 01:16:47,780
Right.

1296
01:16:48,100 --> 01:16:53,460
Um so what's interesting is that when they were filming this, the actress who played the

1297
01:16:53,460 --> 01:16:58,820
three breasted woman who got like three prosthetic breasts put on her, she felt so

1298
01:16:58,820 --> 01:17:04,510
humiliated and shameful for having to be the three-breasted woman, and she like

1299
01:17:04,590 --> 01:17:06,830
burst into tears and they had to stop filming.

1300
01:17:06,990 --> 01:17:12,910
Um and uh to me, this is a really interesting example of how you know she she did

1301
01:17:13,310 --> 01:17:14,510
obviously she did nothing wrong.

1302
01:17:14,590 --> 01:17:16,750
She's an actress playing a part in a movie.

1303
01:17:16,830 --> 01:17:18,830
She doesn't actually have three breasts, right?

1304
01:17:19,070 --> 01:17:24,430
But the the mere thought that others might think of her or look upon her with disgust was

1305
01:17:24,430 --> 01:17:26,280
what activated the shame.

1306
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:31,560
And so to me, that's a really beautiful example of how shame is laser focused on other

1307
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:33,560
people's judgments or potential judgments.

1308
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:37,880
And sometimes even a hyper-vigilant way where you're overestimating how much people are

1309
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,200
going to be disgusted with you or view you negatively.

1310
01:17:40,440 --> 01:17:45,080
And that is the trigger of the shame, uh, more than doing anything, you know, cosmically

1311
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:47,320
wrong, as you put it, uh sneezer.

1312
01:17:48,170 --> 01:17:48,490
Yeah.

1313
01:17:48,810 --> 01:17:49,450
It's really interesting.

1314
01:17:49,530 --> 01:17:53,130
I mean, it really does suggest again, like I think the folk psychology really focuses on

1315
01:17:53,130 --> 01:17:57,450
when it doesn't go right, where it's sort of like you have like these wonderful people, you

1316
01:17:57,450 --> 01:18:01,130
know, like I'm thinking, like, you know, as a parent, like I think many parents have this

1317
01:18:01,130 --> 01:18:05,530
experience of like their kid is doing something that is uh has some attribute that either

1318
01:18:05,530 --> 01:18:09,610
isn't as bad as they think it is, but they think it's really bad, you know, because like

1319
01:18:09,690 --> 01:18:12,810
well, let's say they stutter, you know, and it's like it's fine, it's not you'll get over

1320
01:18:12,810 --> 01:18:16,170
it, or even if you don't, it's fine, you know, or like or if they're gay, right?

1321
01:18:16,250 --> 01:18:17,370
Or just whatever.

1322
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:22,640
Um the people that you care about, you see them sometimes sort of worry about an audience

1323
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:23,680
that they need to worry about.

1324
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:28,240
And it's sort of a conflict of of sort of like, well, no, you're good, you're intrinsically

1325
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:32,240
fine, I value you, but I'm aware there's another audience that you're worried about.

1326
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:36,480
And that and that difference or where it's a discrepancy, that's sort of like I think

1327
01:18:36,480 --> 01:18:38,560
there's like a lot of folk attention to that.

1328
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:39,200
Yeah.

1329
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:45,760
There's um old sociology 1902 um

1330
01:18:46,670 --> 01:18:52,110
now eight twentieth century's ancient history, but there's a guy by the name of

1331
01:18:52,110 --> 01:18:58,030
Cooley, I think George or something Cooley, uh, the mirror image self or

1332
01:18:58,030 --> 01:18:58,910
something like that.

1333
01:18:59,150 --> 01:19:02,350
Uh phenomenology or something like that.

1334
01:19:03,070 --> 01:19:08,740
And he has extremely brilliant insights on shame and pride and these self

1335
01:19:08,900 --> 01:19:14,900
emotions and he says something like this uh it's like an

1336
01:19:14,900 --> 01:19:20,900
electrocardiogram of continuous registering uh of

1337
01:19:20,900 --> 01:19:26,900
the tone of this if other evaluative uh input in the form of shame

1338
01:19:26,900 --> 01:19:32,810
and pride even even if it's not, you know, uh peak as in you win the Olympics, but there's

1339
01:19:32,810 --> 01:19:36,730
a continuous I I I see it's an a date I see that in myself.

1340
01:19:36,890 --> 01:19:42,890
Um I'm highly other oriented and some some people are more they don't care too much or they

1341
01:19:42,890 --> 01:19:43,930
seem to not care too much.

1342
01:19:44,090 --> 01:19:49,640
But I c I can see it's like a continuous uh input um

1343
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:55,320
for the good or for the bad even even tiny if even even at the very low it's highly precise

1344
01:19:55,400 --> 01:20:01,160
so we have uh another study um the same logic of shaman evaluation and with

1345
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:06,360
a Canadian student and we grab so uh

1346
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:12,350
Gilfang uh Michelle she has for her norm title lose

1347
01:20:12,350 --> 01:20:17,790
culture, she created stimuli that are in the form of three categorical set

1348
01:20:18,110 --> 01:20:24,110
of things that are, you know, highly nonviolating, intermediate nonviolating, and

1349
01:20:24,110 --> 01:20:25,150
low non-violating.

1350
01:20:25,230 --> 01:20:30,990
So she they constructed 20 situations that are like completely kosher, 20

1351
01:20:31,150 --> 01:20:34,670
that are intermediate, and 20 that are like, you know, you steal and you kill.

1352
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:35,120
Okay.

1353
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:37,920
So so now so we looked at those.

1354
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:43,600
So pushing the system, how how far the system can go, what's the resolution and the

1355
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:48,000
precision, and we don't we don't have the minimal detectable, the just noticeable

1356
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:48,480
difference.

1357
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:54,480
And we don't have good calibration with the you know uh atomic resonance uh what

1358
01:20:54,480 --> 01:21:00,240
is a second we don't have that objective standard to know what's the minimal unit.

1359
01:21:00,720 --> 01:21:06,490
But but there is shame there's pretty strong shame tracking of

1360
01:21:06,490 --> 01:21:12,170
devaluation even for actions like you're sitting on your couch reading a

1361
01:21:12,170 --> 01:21:16,890
book versus you are riding the bus

1362
01:21:17,690 --> 01:21:22,090
versus you are at the store buying food.

1363
01:21:24,340 --> 01:21:24,900
Okay, yeah.

1364
01:21:25,060 --> 01:21:28,100
So it's it's it's exactly that the coolie notion.

1365
01:21:28,260 --> 01:21:33,780
So you're gonna feel there's an extraordinarily sensitive machine for

1366
01:21:33,780 --> 01:21:39,700
registering on a second by second basis this evaluative

1367
01:21:39,700 --> 01:21:40,580
input of other people.

1368
01:21:40,660 --> 01:21:41,620
It's it's amazing.

1369
01:21:41,940 --> 01:21:42,020
Right.

1370
01:21:42,260 --> 01:21:47,540
So I'm gonna feel more proud sitting on a couch reading a book than I am writing a book.

1371
01:21:48,500 --> 01:21:51,300
Yes, because I'm I'm learning something, so that makes me more valuable partners.

1372
01:21:51,620 --> 01:21:52,900
I made up the book thing.

1373
01:21:53,070 --> 01:21:58,430
I I made up the book thing, but the there's you you could I could go back and and maybe

1374
01:21:58,430 --> 01:22:04,190
remove the things that are kind of uh more obvious m more but there's really

1375
01:22:04,190 --> 01:22:10,190
nothing you know uh it's not uh forget about the

1376
01:22:10,190 --> 01:22:10,350
book.

1377
01:22:10,430 --> 01:22:15,790
Uh yeah, but it's it's there's something or you're sitting on the TV like watching uh TV,

1378
01:22:15,870 --> 01:22:16,110
you know.

1379
01:22:16,190 --> 01:22:20,480
Like imagine just imagine your boss, we walk in and like you're either reading like a a

1380
01:22:20,480 --> 01:22:24,960
sophisticated book or like watching like really like you know dumb and reality TV.

1381
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:25,520
Yeah, exactly.

1382
01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:33,280
People do people do feel shame about watching reality TV or guilty pleasure.

1383
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:34,400
Guilty pleasure, as they say.

1384
01:22:34,480 --> 01:22:34,800
Yeah, yeah.

1385
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:40,000
So what I don't I don't I don't because I never watch reality TV, but but people tell me

1386
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:41,120
that they feel shame, yeah.

1387
01:22:41,870 --> 01:22:42,430
Sure, sure.

1388
01:22:42,750 --> 01:22:45,790
And I want to get I want I want to get into some stumpers like that.

1389
01:22:45,870 --> 01:22:46,830
So, what's going on?

1390
01:22:46,990 --> 01:22:50,110
Why do people feel shame for watching reality TV?

1391
01:22:50,190 --> 01:22:54,750
What is it about watching reality TV that makes you a worse social partner?

1392
01:22:55,070 --> 01:22:58,750
And to clarify, this is not a question about what makes reality TV bad.

1393
01:22:59,310 --> 01:23:00,110
Correct, correct.

1394
01:23:00,510 --> 01:23:00,990
It may be bad.

1395
01:23:04,030 --> 01:23:08,240
Yeah, so so why why do people feel shame about you know watching trashy stuff?

1396
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:09,440
It's weird.

1397
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:12,880
Uh it's slow brow coded.

1398
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:17,280
And I d I I I well, uh I don't think everyone gets shame.

1399
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:21,280
Uh maybe intellectual types, but normal people may like it.

1400
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:23,920
So it would depend on the specific audience.

1401
01:23:24,490 --> 01:23:29,770
So so more more highly educated uh intellectuals might feel shame.

1402
01:23:30,010 --> 01:23:34,010
Is do you think it's it's because of the intellectual opportunity cost that like I could be

1403
01:23:34,010 --> 01:23:39,450
watching a documentary or like a great black and white French film and instead I'm watching

1404
01:23:39,450 --> 01:23:40,330
uh reality TV?

1405
01:23:40,490 --> 01:23:42,810
Is you think that might might be part of it?

1406
01:23:43,450 --> 01:23:43,930
Yeah.

1407
01:23:44,250 --> 01:23:50,200
Or or to to go full theory, it's if the intellectuals say that if you're an

1408
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:55,480
intellectual and it's common knowledge in the intellectual community that that's a lowbrow,

1409
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:58,920
low status uh thing, then you feel shame.

1410
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:05,080
If the intellectuals agree that it's uh risque and and

1411
01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:10,990
and cool to to say no to your duties, you know, yeah uh

1412
01:24:11,070 --> 01:24:16,270
every now and then in blue sky or these places they say it's it's cool to say no to your

1413
01:24:16,270 --> 01:24:16,590
boss.

1414
01:24:16,670 --> 01:24:18,670
I'm not 24 hours available.

1415
01:24:18,830 --> 01:24:24,670
I also have a life let's fight for the let's fight for 25 then if it's cool

1416
01:24:24,830 --> 01:24:30,430
then maybe it's good to watch lowbrow sure but that just raises the question of why

1417
01:24:30,430 --> 01:24:34,910
watching lowbrow stuff would would be uncool or low status or low or or lowbrow.

1418
01:24:34,990 --> 01:24:40,640
Like what what what grounds that so there you have uh two experts here too

1419
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:46,800
for what are coalitional values on and how is that a group

1420
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:51,520
membership badge that we we watch the intellectual stuff as a as a group and if you don't

1421
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:53,840
watch intellectual stuff then you're not a member of our group.

1422
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:59,760
Is that that might that be not mixing meat and uh milk and or

1423
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:05,630
marrying or not marrying your parallel cousin And

1424
01:25:05,630 --> 01:25:10,030
it's so it's analogous to like a food taboo or like a d uh pattern of dress or something

1425
01:25:10,030 --> 01:25:12,670
it's just a way of mark demarcating rival groups.

1426
01:25:12,910 --> 01:25:16,990
Maybe I mean I also think like I mean I also think like there's it's comp there's lots of

1427
01:25:16,990 --> 01:25:17,390
things, right?

1428
01:25:17,550 --> 01:25:20,510
Because the other thing, David, so like for example, like let's say you're watching reality

1429
01:25:20,510 --> 01:25:20,910
TV.

1430
01:25:21,070 --> 01:25:21,230
Yeah.

1431
01:25:21,390 --> 01:25:25,150
If we're both academics and I don't know you that well, you don't feel like I'm gonna give

1432
01:25:25,150 --> 01:25:29,550
you the benefit of the doubt, and y I come in and I see you watching lowbrow TV, you might

1433
01:25:29,550 --> 01:25:35,440
be worried that like, you know, I you know, or let me let me try to, it's also

1434
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:37,120
hard to do common knowledge explicitly.

1435
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:37,600
Okay.

1436
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:42,320
You I you have a representation of how smart I think you are, right?

1437
01:25:42,480 --> 01:25:46,960
And if I don't know you that well, so you might be like, okay, Dave thinks I'm like, you

1438
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:48,640
know, a nine or a 10th smart.

1439
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:53,120
And I really am, but I just like this stuff and I like I do have psych of like reality TV.

1440
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:54,480
But he doesn't know me that well.

1441
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:56,160
He's not gonna give me the benefit of the doubt.

1442
01:25:56,320 --> 01:26:01,310
So I'm worried when he sees me that he's gonna make an inference of like the only people I

1443
01:26:01,310 --> 01:26:04,990
know who watch this stuff are usually not doing it to like, you know, find out about human

1444
01:26:04,990 --> 01:26:05,790
nature of psych.

1445
01:26:06,270 --> 01:26:10,750
So like the fact that he's enjoying this probably means he's like actually a four or five

1446
01:26:10,830 --> 01:26:11,710
intelligence-wise.

1447
01:26:11,790 --> 01:26:13,390
And you're you're worried about that.

1448
01:26:13,710 --> 01:26:14,590
That's one example.

1449
01:26:14,670 --> 01:26:15,950
There's probably a lot of examples.

1450
01:26:16,030 --> 01:26:20,740
But then, like, if we have a better relationship where you trust me, and I'm not gonna view

1451
01:26:20,740 --> 01:26:23,060
this as like I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt.

1452
01:26:23,140 --> 01:26:25,140
Right, I'm gonna come in and be like, oh, David's watching this.

1453
01:26:25,220 --> 01:26:29,220
Well, I know David's smart, like, or I know have enough information that like if he's

1454
01:26:29,220 --> 01:26:35,060
watching this, it's not gonna affect my inference about you and like all these the

1455
01:26:35,060 --> 01:26:38,900
things that are valuable, like your work ethic, how smart you are, how funny you are.

1456
01:26:39,060 --> 01:26:40,420
Uh it's not gonna hurt that.

1457
01:26:40,580 --> 01:26:43,060
And if you have an accurate model of that, then you won't.

1458
01:26:43,140 --> 01:26:48,050
And I think like feeling closeness or comfortable with somebody to like laugh at stupid

1459
01:26:48,050 --> 01:26:48,690
jokes, right?

1460
01:26:48,770 --> 01:26:52,370
Like the when you feel comfortable, you watch like lowbrow TV together.

1461
01:26:52,610 --> 01:26:53,250
Like I don't know.

1462
01:26:53,330 --> 01:26:57,490
I've I've felt like watching TV for entertainment, sometimes with people you don't know

1463
01:26:57,490 --> 01:26:59,970
well, kind of feels uncomfortable to you get to know them better.

1464
01:27:00,210 --> 01:27:01,730
And I think it's probably part of this.

1465
01:27:01,810 --> 01:27:07,090
It's just sort of like, uh, I'm like monitoring the costs to uh my

1466
01:27:07,090 --> 01:27:08,610
reputation here, right?

1467
01:27:10,440 --> 01:27:15,160
Not only about seeming dumb perhaps, but also a coordination about the values that you

1468
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:15,400
hold.

1469
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:15,880
Exactly.

1470
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:21,560
What if you laugh about a gay joke, but they're not sure.

1471
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:22,840
So it's that's an interesting idea.

1472
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:28,920
So uh if if the amount of data you have about me is really sparse, then each

1473
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,320
individual data point is really gonna matter more.

1474
01:27:31,480 --> 01:27:35,320
And so it's gonna really matter if you catch me watching reality TV and you don't know me

1475
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:35,480
well.

1476
01:27:35,670 --> 01:27:39,030
well if and that's the only information you have about me, then you're gonna make stronger

1477
01:27:39,030 --> 01:27:43,510
inferences about me uh and and my intelligence or or work ethic or or whatever.

1478
01:27:43,670 --> 01:27:46,710
But if you know me really well, you have a much larger data set.

1479
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:52,390
Uh and me watching reality TV isn't gonna change your your uh estimate of me very much.

1480
01:27:52,550 --> 01:27:57,350
And so it may be that um when we feel closer to someone and we have more common experiences

1481
01:27:57,350 --> 01:28:01,990
with them, we can sort of relax a little bit and and not worry about each, you know, you

1482
01:28:01,990 --> 01:28:04,950
know, micro uh activity we engage in with them.

1483
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:05,360
Yeah.

1484
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:06,480
Microaggression.

1485
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:06,880
Yeah.

1486
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:11,040
And that really suggests it's really smart because it actually is like it's not only like

1487
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:16,960
what are the things I'm doing, like watching TV, relaxing, being like vulnerable with

1488
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:17,920
this other person.

1489
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:22,880
It's also then like there's a constant update of sort of what do they know about me and how

1490
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:28,880
do I think the event I'm doing now of putting my foot up, um, you know, belching,

1491
01:28:29,170 --> 01:28:33,970
watching reality TV, how is that gonna affect their assessment of me?

1492
01:28:34,130 --> 01:28:39,810
So it really suggests like a very rich representational system of like what am I doing

1493
01:28:39,890 --> 01:28:45,090
and how will it be received by this other person given what they know about me currently?

1494
01:28:46,130 --> 01:28:46,450
Yeah.

1495
01:28:46,690 --> 01:28:48,530
I want to add another layer on top of this.

1496
01:28:48,610 --> 01:28:50,930
I think self-control is probably part of it too.

1497
01:28:51,170 --> 01:28:55,560
So uh Leo Fettucci, uh who we should probably have on uh at at some point has done really

1498
01:28:55,560 --> 01:29:01,400
interesting work on uh how uh self-control and delaying gratification is moralized, that we

1499
01:29:01,480 --> 01:29:05,480
that we view people who have a lot of self-discipline as more virtuous, and we view

1500
01:29:05,480 --> 01:29:10,040
activities as expressing your your self-discipline or self-control as uh being you know

1501
01:29:10,440 --> 01:29:11,800
morally praiseworthy.

1502
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:16,610
Um and so I and his argument is that you need self-control to be a good cooperative

1503
01:29:16,610 --> 01:29:16,850
partner.

1504
01:29:17,010 --> 01:29:21,250
That part of being in a cooperative relationship with someone is resisting the short-term

1505
01:29:21,250 --> 01:29:22,770
temptation to defect.

1506
01:29:22,930 --> 01:29:25,890
So if you can think about it as a marriage, you know, if if we're if we're married to each

1507
01:29:25,890 --> 01:29:30,290
other, I have to resist the short-term temptation of cheating with with someone because I

1508
01:29:30,290 --> 01:29:34,210
might get a short term benefit, but in the long run, it'll harm my my uh committed

1509
01:29:34,210 --> 01:29:34,770
relationship.

1510
01:29:34,930 --> 01:29:39,520
So if you're gonna trust me to be a good committed partner, uh a good uh thing to look for

1511
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:42,640
is my ability to resist temptations, right?

1512
01:29:42,800 --> 01:29:48,800
And so we use self-control, uh self-uh discipline as a cue to a person's cooperative

1513
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:53,120
potential, their, their, their, uh, their trustworthiness, um, their likelihood of of being

1514
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:55,760
able to commit to us uh over the long run.

1515
01:29:56,000 --> 01:30:01,450
And it may be that if you do things that require a lot of self-control, like watching a

1516
01:30:01,450 --> 01:30:06,810
really boring movie or really reading a really long, boring book, that suggests that you

1517
01:30:06,810 --> 01:30:09,370
have a lot of self-control and you're a really virtuous person.

1518
01:30:09,530 --> 01:30:12,570
But if you're watching stuff that you don't need any self-control at all, you know, it's

1519
01:30:12,570 --> 01:30:17,290
just immediately gratifying, like reality TV or junk food, then that suggests that you

1520
01:30:17,290 --> 01:30:19,210
don't really have a lot of self control.

1521
01:30:19,530 --> 01:30:24,760
Um and so I think that might so there there might be a a a uh an element of virtue uh and

1522
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:28,840
virtue signaling in here as well that you know it's seen as more virtuous to watch the

1523
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:34,520
black and white French film or to read the long boring novel from you know the the

1524
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:36,360
eighteen hundreds and Russia or whatever.

1525
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:40,280
Like that shows that I have a lot of self-discipline and I'm I'm gonna be a virtuous uh

1526
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:40,840
person.

1527
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:42,600
Interesting.

1528
01:30:43,480 --> 01:30:43,800
Okay.

1529
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:48,070
Um I got some more stumpers for you, Sneezer.

1530
01:30:48,710 --> 01:30:53,750
Um why should we be proud of the fact that we're humble?

1531
01:30:53,910 --> 01:30:59,910
So if you think about humility as not being proud or not being arrogant or boastful about

1532
01:30:59,910 --> 01:31:03,990
yourself, why should we be proud of the fact that we're not proud?

1533
01:31:04,150 --> 01:31:06,310
Why should we be proud of our humility?

1534
01:31:09,190 --> 01:31:15,120
Um so that is the topic of a paper that we have

1535
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:19,280
in the works with Landers and Durkey again, but in the pride domain.

1536
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:24,960
So pride has a mixed reputation in the Bible.

1537
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:29,680
My go-to book uh says that uh pride uh

1538
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:32,720
before the fallfall, yeah.

1539
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:36,960
Go with friend uh and uh Hottie spirit uh something.

1540
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:43,330
Uh before before the fall there is hubris and arrogance and pride is

1541
01:31:43,330 --> 01:31:45,570
uh followed by catastrophe.

1542
01:31:46,210 --> 01:31:51,730
But but at at the on the other hand, it's also the case that pride is part of a price

1543
01:31:51,730 --> 01:31:57,010
system in the positive range uh of the price the brain

1544
01:31:57,170 --> 01:31:59,970
collected he left.

1545
01:32:03,140 --> 01:32:04,180
Yeah, David will be back.

1546
01:32:04,260 --> 01:32:08,020
Uh, but just while David's coming back, it's pride goeth before destruction.

1547
01:32:08,260 --> 01:32:08,660
Goeth.

1548
01:32:08,980 --> 01:32:09,540
I love that.

1549
01:32:10,180 --> 01:32:10,340
Okay.

1550
01:32:10,500 --> 01:32:14,180
Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

1551
01:32:14,500 --> 01:32:15,140
Before a fall.

1552
01:32:15,300 --> 01:32:15,540
Yeah.

1553
01:32:15,620 --> 01:32:16,340
So there you go.

1554
01:32:16,500 --> 01:32:21,540
All the all the people who know the Bible better than us were cringing a few moments ago.

1555
01:32:22,900 --> 01:32:24,260
Uh yes, yes, yes.

1556
01:32:24,340 --> 01:32:24,580
Sorry.

1557
01:32:24,660 --> 01:32:27,220
Yeah, it's uh it's a mortal offense to not know the Bible.

1558
01:32:27,300 --> 01:32:27,380
No.

1559
01:32:28,100 --> 01:32:28,900
I apologize.

1560
01:32:29,250 --> 01:32:30,210
You shouldn't apologize.

1561
01:32:30,530 --> 01:32:31,490
You should not feel shame.

1562
01:32:31,730 --> 01:32:32,450
I feel shame.

1563
01:32:32,610 --> 01:32:32,850
Yeah.

1564
01:32:33,810 --> 01:32:39,250
Um, okay, and and pride is also part of a price of a price system that tells you the

1565
01:32:39,250 --> 01:32:43,170
implicitly the collective price attached to positive things.

1566
01:32:43,490 --> 01:32:49,410
And it uh so pride uh provides the incentive.

1567
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:52,160
has a bad reputation.

1568
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:57,600
Uh the Lord Almighty in heaven punishes if you have too much pride, but at the same time,

1569
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:03,840
pride provides the incentive for producing uh as a side as a side

1570
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:08,000
effect of your status pursuits socially valuable outcomes.

1571
01:33:08,160 --> 01:33:14,050
So it's really the price system in the social games with which

1572
01:33:14,050 --> 01:33:19,090
people produce great societal things, civilizations, families, uh

1573
01:33:19,410 --> 01:33:23,650
conquests, uh commercial quests, uh

1574
01:33:24,850 --> 01:33:30,850
population of new environments, uh, great things, big and small, are

1575
01:33:30,850 --> 01:33:36,620
driven in big part by pride and the carrot to having higher status if you achieve these

1576
01:33:36,620 --> 01:33:36,780
things.

1577
01:33:36,940 --> 01:33:37,100
Right.

1578
01:33:37,340 --> 01:33:41,100
So pride is the as a side effect of pride, you have great stuff.

1579
01:33:41,180 --> 01:33:45,740
And so like if if you were to impair, like if we're if you think about humans as squishy

1580
01:33:45,740 --> 01:33:51,260
robots, if you were to like snip out the pride system, probably a lot of

1581
01:33:51,580 --> 01:33:57,420
the good or like non-entropic stuff that has been produced by humans over history

1582
01:33:57,420 --> 01:33:58,620
would probably not exist.

1583
01:33:59,020 --> 01:33:59,500
Yeah.

1584
01:33:59,660 --> 01:34:00,140
Yeah.

1585
01:34:00,380 --> 01:34:00,780
Yeah.

1586
01:34:00,940 --> 01:34:01,730
I think so.

1587
01:34:02,290 --> 01:34:03,090
Interesting.

1588
01:34:03,330 --> 01:34:03,650
Okay.

1589
01:34:04,930 --> 01:34:05,170
Yeah.

1590
01:34:05,250 --> 01:34:05,490
Go ahead.

1591
01:34:05,730 --> 01:34:06,370
No, okay.

1592
01:34:07,570 --> 01:34:08,450
Sorry, go ahead.

1593
01:34:08,530 --> 01:34:08,850
Go ahead.

1594
01:34:09,090 --> 01:34:11,250
But I found the bail I found the Bible quote, David.

1595
01:34:11,330 --> 01:34:14,610
It was pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

1596
01:34:14,690 --> 01:34:19,490
So Ah, that's a lovely example of of the paradoxical nature of pride.

1597
01:34:19,730 --> 01:34:23,170
Um so if you have anything more to add, uh add it, but I'll uh if not I'll move on to the

1598
01:34:23,170 --> 01:34:23,810
next dumper.

1599
01:34:24,700 --> 01:34:30,460
long story short, uh Jessica Tracy, one person in the Tangni realm

1600
01:34:30,620 --> 01:34:35,020
intrapersonal, she started off with a theory of pride as intrapersonal.

1601
01:34:35,180 --> 01:34:40,860
It's pride is the bad pride is if I attribute the success to my great self.

1602
01:34:41,020 --> 01:34:45,420
Uh it's good pride if I think the pride is uh due to my action.

1603
01:34:45,660 --> 01:34:51,580
But we have uh falsificationist uh experiments run in several countries showing

1604
01:34:51,580 --> 01:34:57,510
that the there's probably we we believe that these two

1605
01:34:57,510 --> 01:35:00,150
facets or subtypes of prides is not a thing.

1606
01:35:00,310 --> 01:35:06,070
There's a pride system that is complex, and the moniker or the concept of

1607
01:35:06,070 --> 01:35:11,750
hubris or arrogance is not so much a pride system, but rather a concept leveraged at those

1608
01:35:11,750 --> 01:35:13,510
who claim too much respect.

1609
01:35:13,750 --> 01:35:16,150
Um it's it's a concept applied to other people.

1610
01:35:16,230 --> 01:35:17,430
I'm not arrogant.

1611
01:35:17,510 --> 01:35:19,510
Uh you are arrogant, uh Dave.

1612
01:35:20,310 --> 01:35:20,950
I'm not arrogant.

1613
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:24,080
It's you guys who are arrogant.

1614
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:27,440
And and we have support for that in our papers.

1615
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:31,920
And again, like in the Shaman Gill paper, we have strong support for the interpersonal

1616
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:36,080
theory of pride and low support for the attributional theory of pride.

1617
01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:41,920
And I think what happens is we show that the hubris thing is

1618
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:47,950
a function of the degree to which a person or someone else overclaims

1619
01:35:47,950 --> 01:35:52,510
relative to the true social price of the action that they attain.

1620
01:35:52,990 --> 01:35:58,990
And so arrogance people don't like because uh for various reasons, because you have to pay

1621
01:35:58,990 --> 01:36:04,830
higher than the price that they're worth, and that's uh excessive uh cost, that's

1622
01:36:04,830 --> 01:36:05,310
not good.

1623
01:36:05,470 --> 01:36:10,190
But also in envious rivalrous relationships, um, if you achieve even if you're correctly

1624
01:36:10,190 --> 01:36:11,630
calibrated, that's bad for me.

1625
01:36:11,710 --> 01:36:17,260
So there's a number of things, but uh long story short, arrogance people dislike for those

1626
01:36:17,260 --> 01:36:22,540
reasons and uh so to show lack of arrogance is is good

1627
01:36:23,180 --> 01:36:27,740
and um so to show proper calibration is

1628
01:36:30,460 --> 01:36:36,060
is good uh it's it's better than if you show excessive pride from the standpoint of

1629
01:36:36,060 --> 01:36:41,420
showing the thing yeah and you may still get some crap if other people are envious

1630
01:36:42,130 --> 01:36:46,690
Um, and you have a bullshit also side to the story,

1631
01:36:47,890 --> 01:36:53,730
which is uh pretending that so all the academics now are now are hot

1632
01:36:54,050 --> 01:36:59,090
about humility, uh, and that seems like bullshit, if I could paraphrase you,

1633
01:36:59,970 --> 01:37:03,490
and uh humble brag or something that seems like bullshit.

1634
01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:09,760
They now that they have achieved the it seems like the kind of stuff that

1635
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:15,520
you do when you have achieved and you promulgate and you

1636
01:37:15,520 --> 01:37:21,280
proselytize so that the upstarts uh don't dethrone you or something like that.

1637
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:22,560
It could be in part.

1638
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:22,960
Yeah.

1639
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:27,440
I mean can I can cause I often talk about humility being good things, so I'm gonna defend

1640
01:37:27,440 --> 01:37:33,170
humility a little bit, which is the way I use it at least is sort of um it's calling out a

1641
01:37:33,170 --> 01:37:39,090
status game that's sort of uh orthogonal to the one I think we should be

1642
01:37:39,090 --> 01:37:39,330
playing.

1643
01:37:39,490 --> 01:37:45,490
So for example, like uh not not like you know studying kids or

1644
01:37:45,490 --> 01:37:51,170
like women's social coalitional uh power because like those are important aspects of like

1645
01:37:51,330 --> 01:37:56,860
human phenotypes but um, but like they're low bargaining power

1646
01:37:56,860 --> 01:37:59,180
entities in our cultural milieu.

1647
01:37:59,260 --> 01:38:05,180
And so like being humble about like that, you know, these are important classes of evolved

1648
01:38:05,180 --> 01:38:10,780
situations of like being a kid, being a woman, like you know, having low bargaining power.

1649
01:38:11,020 --> 01:38:16,710
Um, it the the call to humility is sort of like uh don't just

1650
01:38:16,710 --> 01:38:22,550
read out of sort of like what status aspirational in your mind scientists think about the

1651
01:38:22,550 --> 01:38:28,310
things that like are humble um in in order to sort of pursue those things, like you know,

1652
01:38:28,470 --> 01:38:30,870
the low bargaining power situations or people.

1653
01:38:31,110 --> 01:38:34,470
So that's my defense of like a call to humility.

1654
01:38:35,700 --> 01:38:41,300
Sorry, uh I couldn't follow if you're saying uh people with low bargaining power are humble

1655
01:38:41,300 --> 01:38:46,820
in their relationship with more powerful people, or intellectuals who or academics who

1656
01:38:46,820 --> 01:38:52,820
study uh women, they need to be humble in order to be open to the what low-power

1657
01:38:52,820 --> 01:38:55,140
people do, or yeah, I think I mean the second one.

1658
01:38:55,220 --> 01:38:58,420
I mean, I think the first is true, but like I think the the second one is what I mean in

1659
01:38:58,420 --> 01:38:58,900
this context.

1660
01:38:58,980 --> 01:38:59,620
Yeah, that's right.

1661
01:38:59,700 --> 01:39:05,630
Like I think that there's uh you can look at like evolved psychologies of scientists

1662
01:39:05,870 --> 01:39:11,870
and sort of say we should be more humble, which could mean like um it doesn't

1663
01:39:11,870 --> 01:39:17,790
just mean like, you know, a f keep affording me the status, Daniel, you know, or if I

1664
01:39:17,790 --> 01:39:19,630
tell you to be humble, right?

1665
01:39:19,870 --> 01:39:25,380
It could mean like, yeah, I've I've made it and I want you to not, you know, be an upstart

1666
01:39:25,380 --> 01:39:26,180
against me.

1667
01:39:26,340 --> 01:39:32,020
But it could also mean like we should um we might be blind to like

1668
01:39:32,180 --> 01:39:37,700
looking at uh things respecting things that we don't respect because of the

1669
01:39:37,700 --> 01:39:40,420
bargaining power status that our brains register.

1670
01:39:40,580 --> 01:39:40,900
Right.

1671
01:39:41,300 --> 01:39:47,220
So so the so the no so the call to study non-weird people is humble humble we should

1672
01:39:47,220 --> 01:39:53,170
look beyond our own naval and uh exactly, or like who like if there's a category

1673
01:39:53,170 --> 01:39:58,770
of people that like our society devalues, and to the extent that I

1674
01:39:58,770 --> 01:40:04,530
register that, and that biases me not even understanding like the psychology of those

1675
01:40:04,530 --> 01:40:10,450
people, a call to humility is sort of like don't use the readout of your value system

1676
01:40:10,450 --> 01:40:16,420
as a human being uh or correct for that when you're doing the science is the way to put it.

1677
01:40:16,900 --> 01:40:22,100
That that that's that uh not not to psychoanalyze you or anything, yeah, but that's that

1678
01:40:22,100 --> 01:40:27,700
sounds like the like the AWA system uh in the form of noblesse

1679
01:40:27,860 --> 01:40:33,540
oblige because traditionally it's the peasant that owes me allegiance and and respect if

1680
01:40:33,540 --> 01:40:34,340
I'm the king.

1681
01:40:34,420 --> 01:40:34,740
Right.

1682
01:40:34,980 --> 01:40:40,550
That's uh but it but in the nobless of leash of this thing, uh we are now uh

1683
01:40:40,550 --> 01:40:46,470
enlightened um elites and we can uh give voice to

1684
01:40:46,470 --> 01:40:48,230
the unvoiced or the the platform.

1685
01:40:48,310 --> 01:40:48,710
Yeah, okay.

1686
01:40:48,790 --> 01:40:51,590
So it's it sounds like that, but in the liberal value, yeah.

1687
01:40:51,910 --> 01:40:51,990
Yeah.

1688
01:40:52,390 --> 01:40:52,870
Yep.

1689
01:40:53,110 --> 01:40:53,750
Yep.

1690
01:40:54,310 --> 01:40:54,630
Okay.

1691
01:40:54,950 --> 01:40:56,230
Next dumper.

1692
01:40:57,300 --> 01:40:58,420
Fashion.

1693
01:40:58,820 --> 01:41:04,820
So my wife has been uh telling me that apparently baggy pants are in and all of

1694
01:41:04,820 --> 01:41:06,260
my pants are non-baggy.

1695
01:41:06,660 --> 01:41:10,580
And so when I was alerted to this fact, I'm like, oh no, my entire wardrobe is uncool.

1696
01:41:10,660 --> 01:41:11,460
I'm an uncool person.

1697
01:41:11,780 --> 01:41:15,300
Yeah, keep your wardrobe from like 20 years ago, just it's gonna come back.

1698
01:41:15,620 --> 01:41:16,180
Just wait it out.

1699
01:41:16,340 --> 01:41:16,900
Yeah, exactly.

1700
01:41:17,460 --> 01:41:20,870
But if I if I wait it out, you know, if I do that strategy, I'm gonna be uncool for a

1701
01:41:20,870 --> 01:41:24,710
certain period of time, and I might even feel some shame about being uncool and wearing

1702
01:41:24,710 --> 01:41:26,230
unfashionable clothes.

1703
01:41:26,470 --> 01:41:28,070
What on earth is that about?

1704
01:41:28,230 --> 01:41:33,750
Why should I be feeling shame for uh the bagginess or lack thereof of my

1705
01:41:33,750 --> 01:41:34,310
pants?

1706
01:41:34,470 --> 01:41:38,390
What does that have to do with my value as a social partner, Daniel Sneezer?

1707
01:41:39,800 --> 01:41:45,000
Well if you're it's if it's your wife not not to not to get inside of your

1708
01:41:46,120 --> 01:41:48,440
bedroom uh I don't want to be able to do that.

1709
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:49,560
No, you're you're you're welcome.

1710
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:51,080
You're welcome in my bedroom, Danny.

1711
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:56,920
But uh well uh that's a different quote.

1712
01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:05,240
But if you're if your wife is giving you hints that your fashion is out of step, then

1713
01:42:05,240 --> 01:42:07,010
maybe I don't know.

1714
01:42:07,330 --> 01:42:10,850
So you think the fact that it's coming from my wife, if it was coming from someone else,

1715
01:42:10,930 --> 01:42:12,450
maybe I wouldn't feel shame.

1716
01:42:13,250 --> 01:42:14,370
Uh yeah, I don't know.

1717
01:42:14,450 --> 01:42:16,450
Um did she bring it up, David, or did you notice it?

1718
01:42:16,610 --> 01:42:18,930
Well, I mean, my my wife is i incredibly fashionable.

1719
01:42:19,170 --> 01:42:23,570
And she's very you know, very, you know, gets compliments all the time about, you know, her

1720
01:42:23,570 --> 01:42:24,290
out her outfits.

1721
01:42:24,450 --> 01:42:28,210
So I trust her as an authority on what is cool and and what isn't it's not merely that

1722
01:42:28,210 --> 01:42:28,610
she's my wife.

1723
01:42:28,690 --> 01:42:31,970
I uh it's that I I trust her her judgments on on this matter.

1724
01:42:32,290 --> 01:42:34,130
But did you bring it up or did she bring it up?

1725
01:42:34,290 --> 01:42:34,930
The pants?

1726
01:42:35,300 --> 01:42:36,260
Uh, she brought it up.

1727
01:42:36,500 --> 01:42:37,540
Uh, okay, yeah.

1728
01:42:38,180 --> 01:42:43,540
I don't know fashion because I could never afford more than old navy uh things at a

1729
01:42:43,540 --> 01:42:44,500
discount.

1730
01:42:45,140 --> 01:42:51,060
But um but yeah, I guess yeah, I I don't know these uh

1731
01:42:51,060 --> 01:42:56,980
fashion things, but I guess if your wife tells you things like uh this is the first

1732
01:42:56,980 --> 01:42:57,380
order, right?

1733
01:42:57,460 --> 01:43:03,300
I don't know the more exotic games, but uh hey honey, you have uh your your belly is too

1734
01:43:03,300 --> 01:43:09,170
big or uh you ain't the tiger that you used to be, or something like that, then

1735
01:43:09,170 --> 01:43:10,770
that gives you pause, right?

1736
01:43:10,930 --> 01:43:11,410
Mm-hmm.

1737
01:43:11,730 --> 01:43:12,450
Well that makes sense.

1738
01:43:12,530 --> 01:43:18,290
But it then it just begs the question of why she or others would be using the bagginess of

1739
01:43:18,290 --> 01:43:22,290
my pants as a criterion for evaluating my character.

1740
01:43:22,450 --> 01:43:26,050
What on earth does that have to do with my value as a social partner?

1741
01:43:26,290 --> 01:43:27,250
Yeah, that seems crazy.

1742
01:43:27,500 --> 01:43:29,740
Maybe, maybe maybe, maybe she's worried.

1743
01:43:29,820 --> 01:43:34,140
Maybe it's like a humor thing, or it's sort of like you don't know the it's a it's a worry

1744
01:43:34,140 --> 01:43:38,460
that she's on top of the changing coordination norms.

1745
01:43:39,020 --> 01:43:43,340
And and she's like, oh well David is and I am in the same boat, so I don't, I'm not saying

1746
01:43:43,340 --> 01:43:45,980
this just about you, like I also don't have baggy pants.

1747
01:43:46,060 --> 01:43:51,820
But um, you know, if David is blind to these changing norms, there's a

1748
01:43:51,820 --> 01:43:57,590
concern that the coordination, your coordination and in just keeping up to date with

1749
01:43:57,590 --> 01:44:03,430
sort of what is the culture valuing, it's a it's a cue that you're not you're

1750
01:44:03,430 --> 01:44:09,350
no longer um and there might even be you're you're let me finish the sentence there you're

1751
01:44:09,350 --> 01:44:13,910
no longer keeping up to date as much as you need to and I do wonder like there's this these

1752
01:44:13,910 --> 01:44:19,500
tropes of like I don't like as you get older you know, like kids are just like sponges of

1753
01:44:19,500 --> 01:44:22,220
sort of like what's the coordination game, what's the status game?

1754
01:44:22,460 --> 01:44:26,860
There's like a certain age where you're just like, I've ballistically committed to one of

1755
01:44:26,860 --> 01:44:27,820
these, right?

1756
01:44:27,980 --> 01:44:31,580
And like there might even be like recursion of sort of like that's known.

1757
01:44:31,660 --> 01:44:36,700
And so she's sort of like, David, are you are you like ossifying like culturally with your

1758
01:44:36,700 --> 01:44:37,340
status game?

1759
01:44:37,500 --> 01:44:39,500
Like that might even be like clubbing for that.

1760
01:44:39,950 --> 01:44:45,950
So it's a cue to my low social intelligence, my low ability to coordinate

1761
01:44:45,950 --> 01:44:48,590
on the changing social conventions and social norms.

1762
01:44:48,670 --> 01:44:53,150
And that's a cue that I'm going to do lots of awkward, oafish things and social

1763
01:44:53,150 --> 01:44:54,830
interactions and make various faux pas.

1764
01:44:55,390 --> 01:44:59,870
Uh and that's just a cue to my my social intelligence and coordination ability.

1765
01:45:00,030 --> 01:45:00,590
I buy that.

1766
01:45:00,670 --> 01:45:02,500
I think that's a good that's a good explanation.

1767
01:45:02,660 --> 01:45:02,820
Yeah.

1768
01:45:02,900 --> 01:45:04,980
And then you know it's and it's empirically testable too.

1769
01:45:05,140 --> 01:45:09,140
You would expect you know, uh people to draw inferences about more well dressed fashionable

1770
01:45:09,140 --> 01:45:11,060
people as being more socially intelligent.

1771
01:45:11,220 --> 01:45:13,300
And you would expect that that inference to be correct.

1772
01:45:13,380 --> 01:45:16,340
That is, more fashionable people should be more socially intelligent.

1773
01:45:16,420 --> 01:45:20,180
They should be better at playing coordination games than than less fashionable people.

1774
01:45:20,820 --> 01:45:22,260
The age thing is really interesting too.

1775
01:45:22,340 --> 01:45:23,220
Like I threw out all this.

1776
01:45:23,300 --> 01:45:24,580
I mean, I know we're all parents too.

1777
01:45:24,660 --> 01:45:30,010
Like this whole thing about like kind of shame and guilt, like kids, you know, there's this

1778
01:45:30,010 --> 01:45:35,290
thing that the this this trope of sort of guilt is useless or shame is useless, and kids

1779
01:45:35,290 --> 01:45:35,770
learn it.

1780
01:45:35,930 --> 01:45:37,530
And I think like there is something to that, right?

1781
01:45:37,610 --> 01:45:39,850
In the sense of like it's calibrated to the social world.

1782
01:45:39,930 --> 01:45:43,130
But like clearly, the conclusion here is like it's not useless.

1783
01:45:43,290 --> 01:45:48,810
But there is like this this um lifespan trajectory of sort of acquiring this,

1784
01:45:49,020 --> 01:45:50,460
becoming worried about things.

1785
01:45:50,620 --> 01:45:53,100
Infants don't seem to have this, or young kids don't.

1786
01:45:53,580 --> 01:45:58,860
There there's uh stuff on the life history, life trajectory of uh shame.

1787
01:45:59,580 --> 01:46:04,780
And it's um uh it doesn't track exactly what you

1788
01:46:05,180 --> 01:46:06,780
mentioned about ballisticness.

1789
01:46:06,860 --> 01:46:10,540
Now now I'm I'm retired and I don't give a fuck about what other people think of me.

1790
01:46:10,780 --> 01:46:10,940
Right.

1791
01:46:11,180 --> 01:46:16,870
But but it's uh uh U shaped in that there's another effect when you're

1792
01:46:16,870 --> 01:46:22,630
old in that you become you lose your, you know, muscle tone and skills, etc.

1793
01:46:22,870 --> 01:46:24,070
And you become dependent on others.

1794
01:46:24,150 --> 01:46:24,310
Yes.

1795
01:46:24,470 --> 01:46:25,750
So there's higher shame.

1796
01:46:26,230 --> 01:46:26,790
Oh interesting.

1797
01:46:27,030 --> 01:46:27,190
Yeah.

1798
01:46:27,350 --> 01:46:28,950
Chris von Ruden mentioned that too.

1799
01:46:29,030 --> 01:46:33,750
That really like old the the status um and the dimensions of status, like the oldest

1800
01:46:33,750 --> 01:46:34,070
people.

1801
01:46:34,390 --> 01:46:39,590
Um it it can happen, but it is the he that very much matches with him and his experience in

1802
01:46:39,670 --> 01:46:41,040
Schwarland, yeah.

1803
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:47,280
My my my grandma, uh the Polish grandma that I have, may the Lord bless her

1804
01:46:47,280 --> 01:46:53,120
soul, uh, she told me something that was uh shockingly hilarious,

1805
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:59,040
uh, namely uh she was very old and she told me something like I

1806
01:46:59,040 --> 01:47:04,640
can't reproduce exactly because but something like don't put me in an old

1807
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:10,410
people's home or something like that, because uh I dislike

1808
01:47:10,410 --> 01:47:16,330
old people they're sorry I I they are they're ugly they're disgusting and she

1809
01:47:16,330 --> 01:47:21,770
was saying that as an old person herself who but she didn't like all people right

1810
01:47:22,490 --> 01:47:27,850
and uh where I'm going with this um yeah

1811
01:47:28,250 --> 01:47:34,000
something along those lines uh yeah yeah you can the loss of new traits that you

1812
01:47:34,000 --> 01:47:37,760
possess as as low value you can be disgusted by people who are just like you.

1813
01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:39,040
Yes, yes, yes.

1814
01:47:39,280 --> 01:47:39,600
Yeah, yeah.

1815
01:47:53,650 --> 01:47:59,650
that make you do that, but at the on the other hand, you have the ancient machines for

1816
01:47:59,810 --> 01:48:05,170
assessing mate value and skills and force and this and that

1817
01:48:05,330 --> 01:48:07,090
productivity and those are low.

1818
01:48:07,410 --> 01:48:07,650
Right.

1819
01:48:07,810 --> 01:48:07,970
Yeah.

1820
01:48:08,210 --> 01:48:11,970
Ugly people are gonna think hot people are hot just as much as hot people think hot people

1821
01:48:11,970 --> 01:48:12,290
are hot.

1822
01:48:12,690 --> 01:48:13,010
Yeah.

1823
01:48:13,170 --> 01:48:13,490
Yeah.

1824
01:48:13,650 --> 01:48:14,290
Yeah.

1825
01:48:14,610 --> 01:48:17,000
Um, Yeah, interesting.

1826
01:48:17,240 --> 01:48:17,560
Okay.

1827
01:48:18,200 --> 01:48:21,480
Um well I have a few more stumpers.

1828
01:48:21,560 --> 01:48:24,840
Maybe, maybe, maybe do one more and then we'll uh wrap things up.

1829
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:25,880
Yeah, yeah.

1830
01:48:26,280 --> 01:48:29,000
Um Okay.

1831
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:31,560
They're all traveling.

1832
01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:37,010
People often get status for having traveled to exotic locations.

1833
01:48:37,490 --> 01:48:42,210
And people often humble brag about their uh wonderful vacations that they've taken.

1834
01:48:42,530 --> 01:48:48,450
If you've been to many places in Europe, uh places very far away, the further away you

1835
01:48:48,450 --> 01:48:50,690
go, the more status you gain, I think.

1836
01:48:51,890 --> 01:48:54,050
Why what is going on there?

1837
01:48:54,210 --> 01:48:57,250
Why why is that a cue to to a valuable social partner?

1838
01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:05,560
Uh well you have money and you have the insulation from the

1839
01:49:05,560 --> 01:49:11,480
consequences of traveling to faraway places with no cane or something,

1840
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:17,000
and so you're powerful uh less

1841
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:22,360
powerful, resourceful people can ill they have to toil uh

1842
01:49:22,520 --> 01:49:24,360
endlessly in pain.

1843
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:28,370
So maybe it's a cue that you have what it takes to do that.

1844
01:49:29,330 --> 01:49:31,570
So I'm sturdy and I'm wealthy.

1845
01:49:33,490 --> 01:49:35,890
That's I think that's probably partly what's going on.

1846
01:49:35,970 --> 01:49:39,890
But but I I would imagine that the inference would still be there even if I'm not the one

1847
01:49:39,890 --> 01:49:40,690
who's paying for it.

1848
01:49:40,850 --> 01:49:45,090
If someone else is paying me to travel to exotic lands, say I'm a journalist and I'm you

1849
01:49:45,090 --> 01:49:48,130
know traveling to very faraway places to do journalism work.

1850
01:49:48,610 --> 01:49:54,520
But but you like but you have but you have the you acquire the knowledge in

1851
01:49:54,520 --> 01:50:00,120
other remote places, but also you have the social worth big enough for someone else to pay

1852
01:50:00,120 --> 01:50:00,680
your thing.

1853
01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:01,480
So your job.

1854
01:50:02,440 --> 01:50:02,520
Yeah.

1855
01:50:02,680 --> 01:50:07,720
Or like when I lived in Berlin, like a trip to like Barcelona was like 45 euros.

1856
01:50:07,880 --> 01:50:12,120
Um you know, and so uh yeah.

1857
01:50:12,440 --> 01:50:14,360
So yeah, I mean, I think I I agree, Daniel.

1858
01:50:14,520 --> 01:50:16,520
Like I think there there is something definitely to that.

1859
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:20,870
I mean, do you think it's also like just this thing of like again, it's like social

1860
01:50:20,870 --> 01:50:21,590
capital, right?

1861
01:50:21,670 --> 01:50:25,670
It's just sort of like you know, and you know another place.

1862
01:50:25,750 --> 01:50:31,590
Like I can say, like living in another uh country, it took a really long time

1863
01:50:31,590 --> 01:50:33,910
to get adaptable to that.

1864
01:50:33,990 --> 01:50:37,910
And I can tell you right now, like if we were we all went to Berlin, I could like really

1865
01:50:37,910 --> 01:50:43,900
coordinate for all three of us in a way that it took me like months and I was like in

1866
01:50:43,900 --> 01:50:47,100
tears sometimes, like of being just discordinated.

1867
01:50:47,340 --> 01:50:52,220
And so like I value that about like that I have that skill.

1868
01:50:52,380 --> 01:50:53,820
Like it's almost like a hunting skill.

1869
01:50:53,900 --> 01:50:56,060
Like I know how to, you know, I know how to be in a place.

1870
01:50:56,220 --> 01:50:58,300
And I think that like that's pretty valuable.

1871
01:50:58,540 --> 01:50:58,860
Oh yeah.

1872
01:50:58,940 --> 01:50:59,340
Oh yeah.

1873
01:50:59,420 --> 01:50:59,820
Absolutely.

1874
01:50:59,900 --> 01:51:00,140
Yeah.

1875
01:51:00,220 --> 01:51:00,620
Yeah.

1876
01:51:00,940 --> 01:51:06,380
One one of the one of the favorite pastimes of Jews is uh

1877
01:51:06,860 --> 01:51:12,570
to map out early on two Jews meet for the first time

1878
01:51:12,570 --> 01:51:15,690
from from different countries or from different states or whatever.

1879
01:51:15,850 --> 01:51:21,770
And a favorite pastime of Jews having been dispossessed and slaughtered, etc., is to

1880
01:51:21,770 --> 01:51:27,610
map out the in geography and in social landscape and in geographical landscape who they

1881
01:51:27,610 --> 01:51:29,850
know in in joint.

1882
01:51:30,250 --> 01:51:36,250
And this is a big important thing that I suspect that maybe other

1883
01:51:36,250 --> 01:51:37,370
people do that too.

1884
01:51:37,620 --> 01:51:43,540
Uh it's a I suspect it's a universal, but it's um oh you know this person, I know

1885
01:51:43,540 --> 01:51:46,420
that person too, and they're and I know this other person in that same place.

1886
01:51:46,660 --> 01:51:47,940
Does that person know this person?

1887
01:51:48,100 --> 01:51:49,620
And what about this this place?

1888
01:51:49,700 --> 01:51:51,540
Uh they they used to be in this place.

1889
01:51:51,700 --> 01:51:52,340
Do you know anybody?

1890
01:51:52,500 --> 01:51:58,500
You know, it's it's basically the more uh the richer your view of the geographic

1891
01:51:58,500 --> 01:52:03,380
landscape and how it uh intersects with your social network, the more escape routes you

1892
01:52:03,380 --> 01:52:04,260
potentially have.

1893
01:52:04,500 --> 01:52:06,020
Should you be in danger, right?

1894
01:52:06,290 --> 01:52:10,690
The more people you know in a faraway place you can go and and potentially meet up with

1895
01:52:10,690 --> 01:52:10,850
them.

1896
01:52:11,010 --> 01:52:12,770
Uh yeah, interesting.

1897
01:52:13,090 --> 01:52:17,330
It it's not exactly the competitive game, or it could be competitive, but it's also

1898
01:52:17,330 --> 01:52:22,930
collaborative because it's joint and uh there's

1899
01:52:22,930 --> 01:52:24,850
seems more collaborative.

1900
01:52:25,490 --> 01:52:28,850
Uh it's not so much bragging, although there could be some of that.

1901
01:52:29,010 --> 01:52:34,700
There there's a fantastic book uh in the tenth century by uh by one Benjamin of Tugela.

1902
01:52:34,780 --> 01:52:40,620
Tugela is a city in Spain, and the guy traveled a little bit like Marco Polo from his small

1903
01:52:40,620 --> 01:52:46,620
town in Spain to uh out of Europe and Mesopotamia or

1904
01:52:46,620 --> 01:52:52,060
uh Iraq, uh Israel and many uh Syria,

1905
01:52:52,220 --> 01:52:58,140
Lebanon, and he he gives a census of all the Jewish communities, 500 here and

1906
01:52:58,140 --> 01:53:02,470
200 here, And the book is absolutely fascinating.

1907
01:53:02,630 --> 01:53:07,430
Uh, down to the, you know, the name the name of the notables and the uh the

1908
01:53:07,750 --> 01:53:08,710
professions.

1909
01:53:09,350 --> 01:53:14,470
And I don't know why I mentioned this, but it's absolutely fascinating as a

1910
01:53:15,430 --> 01:53:19,590
piece of uh historical literature and psychology too, I think.

1911
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:20,160
Yeah.

1912
01:53:20,480 --> 01:53:23,280
I think getting the lay of the land, like even like mundane things.

1913
01:53:23,360 --> 01:53:27,920
Like even I like if you go, like if we all went for like a hike in the backcountry of like

1914
01:53:27,920 --> 01:53:31,920
Southern California and it's like hot and dangerous, and there's somebody who is like

1915
01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:34,880
skilled and knows stuff, like you just kind of value that, right?

1916
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:36,880
Of like this is somebody who knows the landscape.

1917
01:53:36,960 --> 01:53:37,840
We're not gonna get lost.

1918
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:40,000
They know like where water is.

1919
01:53:40,240 --> 01:53:44,880
It's not exactly that, but it's kind of it's that's like a very like light version of of

1920
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:48,470
this thing where there's just sort of like somebody knows the lay of the land, can navigate

1921
01:53:48,470 --> 01:53:52,870
well, knows more about it than you do, and can kind of be your tour guide.

1922
01:53:52,950 --> 01:53:53,190
You know?

1923
01:53:53,510 --> 01:53:53,590
Yeah.

1924
01:53:53,750 --> 01:53:56,630
It's a true there might even be a bit of mismatch.

1925
01:53:56,790 --> 01:54:02,550
You know, if we lived in smaller geographic locations ancestrally, then a person who has

1926
01:54:02,550 --> 01:54:06,070
been to more distant regions is going to be more useful because maybe you know they'll

1927
01:54:06,150 --> 01:54:09,190
they'll be able to guide you through that new region if you need to go there.

1928
01:54:09,420 --> 01:54:14,780
But in in a in a more globalized world, like if someone who's been to you know Morocco, uh

1929
01:54:14,860 --> 01:54:18,620
I'm probab you know, maybe I'll never go to Morocco in my entire life, but they still get

1930
01:54:18,620 --> 01:54:22,460
status for having been to Morocco because sort of my Stone Age mind thinks that that's

1931
01:54:22,460 --> 01:54:26,540
useful information that might come in handy someday, even though it probably won't, right?

1932
01:54:26,700 --> 01:54:31,100
Because their our Stone Age mind is adapted to a smaller geographic uh circle.

1933
01:54:31,900 --> 01:54:32,380
Interesting.

1934
01:54:32,540 --> 01:54:33,180
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1935
01:54:33,580 --> 01:54:34,060
Cool.

1936
01:54:34,390 --> 01:54:34,870
Anyway.

1937
01:54:35,270 --> 01:54:41,270
Editors and reviewers value your paper to the degree that your data are hard to get.

1938
01:54:41,350 --> 01:54:46,470
And part of the hardness to get is the distance that you travel to get that data.

1939
01:54:46,710 --> 01:54:50,950
And it's been devalued by MTurk because you can collect.

1940
01:54:51,110 --> 01:54:56,760
So in the in the early 2000s, when there was no MTurk, if I get data from India, I get a

1941
01:54:56,760 --> 01:55:02,440
top journal because I went f it's the labor theory of value, Marxist theory of value

1942
01:55:02,440 --> 01:55:03,800
applied to academia.

1943
01:55:04,120 --> 01:55:09,400
I traveled far away, I trekked a lot, and I collected exotic data and I'm cool, I have high

1944
01:55:09,400 --> 01:55:09,880
status.

1945
01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:15,960
But fast forward ten or fifteen years, I get I send my papers with India M Turk

1946
01:55:16,120 --> 01:55:21,640
and it's not weird and it's uh all hat and who cares because I have the M Turk.

1947
01:55:22,120 --> 01:55:24,200
Yeah, and almost it almost ties back to the too.

1948
01:55:24,280 --> 01:55:26,040
That's Adam Smith, not just Marx.

1949
01:55:26,610 --> 01:55:26,930
Yeah.

1950
01:55:27,810 --> 01:55:31,570
But that that ties back to the idea of of the virtue of self-control that if you have the

1951
01:55:31,570 --> 01:55:36,850
amount of self-discipline to travel to an exotic location and and brave the the wilderness

1952
01:55:36,850 --> 01:55:41,490
and the novel novelty there, then you you must you know you must really be you know a

1953
01:55:41,490 --> 01:55:43,650
virtuous, committed person.

1954
01:55:44,130 --> 01:55:47,890
But if you just you know get a bunch of easy data on MTurk, you know, any any schmuck could

1955
01:55:47,890 --> 01:55:47,970
do that.

1956
01:55:49,410 --> 01:55:50,130
Exactly.

1957
01:55:50,530 --> 01:55:54,720
Uh Daniel, one question for you.

1958
01:55:54,960 --> 01:56:00,560
Well, well, one question is because we're wrapping up, is you we spent some time together

1959
01:56:00,560 --> 01:56:01,280
in CP.

1960
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:02,960
You spent a lot of time with John Tubi.

1961
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:09,680
We don't always talk about, but we've we've had like you know some Tubi students on, um,

1962
01:56:09,760 --> 01:56:11,040
you know, and we miss John.

1963
01:56:11,440 --> 01:56:16,430
Do you have any sort of like um, and I don't want to like, you know, uh put you on the

1964
01:56:16,430 --> 01:56:20,750
spot, but is there anything about John that like for people who didn't know him?

1965
01:56:20,990 --> 01:56:26,910
Um, or or like, you know, to convey sort of like what what being around John was

1966
01:56:26,910 --> 01:56:32,590
like or um, you know, he we we both spent a lot of time with him, but uh but part of the

1967
01:56:32,750 --> 01:56:36,830
the point of doing this is sort of like getting people to know the people doing of psych

1968
01:56:37,150 --> 01:56:40,030
one of the people we can't do that for anymore is John.

1969
01:56:40,590 --> 01:56:45,940
Um, you know, is there something that you think of that sort of conveys what John was like?

1970
01:56:46,100 --> 01:56:51,940
Or an alternative is sort of like um, you know, for me at least, you know,

1971
01:56:52,020 --> 01:56:55,380
working with John and Lita, you know, like they really were important in this field, and

1972
01:56:55,380 --> 01:56:57,780
it's such an honor to have worked with them.

1973
01:56:58,020 --> 01:57:03,620
Um, for you, how has it been, or what was it like kind of working with them and and sort of

1974
01:57:03,620 --> 01:57:08,980
how do you think about that going forward and and sort of continuing the legacy of of their

1975
01:57:08,980 --> 01:57:09,300
work?

1976
01:57:11,370 --> 01:57:16,890
Uh you put me in an emotional spot, it's hard to say.

1977
01:57:17,130 --> 01:57:23,050
Um, but uh to say that I owe them my life

1978
01:57:23,050 --> 01:57:27,210
would be a little bit too dramatic, but it was something like that.

1979
01:57:27,450 --> 01:57:33,050
Um uh initially in the lab I was extremely shameful

1980
01:57:33,690 --> 01:57:39,610
because there they are gods, and I was a um a lowly

1981
01:57:39,610 --> 01:57:45,300
creature, And but they paradoxically, because they are

1982
01:57:45,540 --> 01:57:50,500
incredibly kind, as everyone says, not

1983
01:57:50,500 --> 01:57:55,140
corresponding with the amount of power that they have given their wisdom.

1984
01:57:55,940 --> 01:58:01,860
So slowly, I'm a slow thinker, and it took me a many, a long, very long time to

1985
01:58:01,860 --> 01:58:04,660
uh calibrate to the American experience.

1986
01:58:05,060 --> 01:58:09,940
Uh that I could stare at them in the eyes or call them by their first names, etc.

1987
01:58:10,670 --> 01:58:16,590
and then and then at some point it clicked and i was spending uh many long

1988
01:58:16,590 --> 01:58:22,590
hours at night in their home making completely inappropriate jokes with uh to be

1989
01:58:23,230 --> 01:58:27,790
unspeakable things like he was like a like a father uh

1990
01:58:29,790 --> 01:58:35,320
and uh yeah yeah yeah yeah He he was an

1991
01:58:35,320 --> 01:58:41,000
incredible observer and hysterically hilarious and unspeakably funny.

1992
01:58:41,160 --> 01:58:41,640
Yes.

1993
01:58:41,880 --> 01:58:47,000
Uh he would say things in me that I didn't know myself, so yeah, very, very extremely

1994
01:58:47,000 --> 01:58:51,880
brilliant and extremely kind and nice and funny and everything else.

1995
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:52,120
Yeah.

1996
01:58:52,360 --> 01:58:52,520
Yeah.

1997
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:58,270
And for John, uh for me it was like uh there's this category of like people who every time

1998
01:58:58,270 --> 01:58:59,710
they open their mouth they learn something.

1999
01:58:59,790 --> 01:59:01,630
And the John was like that category for me.

2000
01:59:01,710 --> 01:59:01,790
Yeah.

2001
01:59:02,270 --> 01:59:02,910
Small group.

2002
01:59:02,990 --> 01:59:03,470
Yeah.

2003
01:59:03,950 --> 01:59:09,550
And I feel uh imposter syndrome in that uh t till today, in that

2004
01:59:09,870 --> 01:59:15,630
people ask me things and some some things I memorize by wrote, uh the shame, blah blah.

2005
01:59:15,790 --> 01:59:20,190
And some and sometimes I'm asked things I'm out of my comfort zone because I don't know

2006
01:59:20,190 --> 01:59:22,350
things by wrote and I don't know what to say.

2007
01:59:22,590 --> 01:59:28,500
And so I'm like an empty, I have no idea, but I say, okay, I'm an empty

2008
01:59:28,500 --> 01:59:31,620
tube, and let's say what Tubi would say.

2009
01:59:31,700 --> 01:59:31,940
Exactly.

2010
01:59:32,180 --> 01:59:36,420
And something completely not completely incoherent comes out, but it's only because of

2011
01:59:36,420 --> 01:59:36,740
Tubi.

2012
01:59:36,900 --> 01:59:37,540
It's not because of Twitter.

2013
01:59:37,780 --> 01:59:38,500
You have an inner tubi.

2014
01:59:38,740 --> 01:59:38,900
I know.

2015
01:59:38,980 --> 01:59:39,940
I I do the exact same thing.

2016
01:59:40,020 --> 01:59:43,300
I'm I'll often be like, what would John what what's the tubi thing right here?

2017
01:59:43,380 --> 01:59:44,420
Yeah, exactly.

2018
01:59:46,420 --> 01:59:48,020
W W J D, what would John do?

2019
01:59:48,180 --> 01:59:48,420
Exactly.

2020
01:59:48,580 --> 01:59:48,820
Yes.

2021
01:59:48,980 --> 01:59:54,130
Too bad that his phenotype didn't correspond with the greatness of his soul and spirit and

2022
01:59:54,130 --> 01:59:54,450
wisdom.

2023
01:59:54,850 --> 01:59:55,810
Yeah, cool.

2024
01:59:55,970 --> 01:59:58,610
Um, is there anything that we should have asked you, Daniel?

2025
01:59:59,570 --> 02:00:02,050
Yeah, but maybe not for public consumption.

2026
02:00:04,690 --> 02:00:06,530
Well, no, no, no, no.

2027
02:00:07,410 --> 02:00:12,450
I and uh I'm working on stuff on human nature and value in general, so maybe at some point

2028
02:00:12,530 --> 02:00:17,010
uh we can chat, but uh it was delightful to chat with you.

2029
02:00:17,170 --> 02:00:23,060
Uh I was feeling a little bit down about the entropic nature of the world, but uh you

2030
02:00:23,060 --> 02:00:26,180
guys made me feel more fuzzy and nice.

2031
02:00:26,340 --> 02:00:26,820
So that's good.

2032
02:00:27,140 --> 02:00:27,300
Great.

2033
02:00:27,380 --> 02:00:29,140
Reverse entropy for a couple hours.

2034
02:00:29,220 --> 02:00:30,180
That could be our tagline.

2035
02:00:30,580 --> 02:00:30,820
Yeah.

2036
02:00:31,300 --> 02:00:36,340
Thank you so much for your interest and for creating this service to the whoever is

2037
02:00:36,340 --> 02:00:36,980
watching this.

2038
02:00:37,380 --> 02:00:39,620
Yeah, and we and Daniel, we are proud of your work.

2039
02:00:39,700 --> 02:00:45,140
I mean I will say like the the emotion work and just the function, the beautiful

2040
02:00:45,140 --> 02:00:50,410
predictions and the the the rapidity with which you've collected beautiful cross-cultural

2041
02:00:50,410 --> 02:00:54,730
data and the people who are just interested in emotions don't have a dog in the fight of

2042
02:00:54,730 --> 02:00:55,930
like evolution or not.

2043
02:00:56,090 --> 02:01:01,930
There are there's just so many people who I'm meeting that love your emotion work because

2044
02:01:01,930 --> 02:01:06,980
it's just clarifying like, oh, I understand if the function of it is this, I can make

2045
02:01:06,980 --> 02:01:11,380
better predictions, I can understand it, I can understand what conditions elicit, what

2046
02:01:11,380 --> 02:01:12,660
outputs it will generate.

2047
02:01:12,820 --> 02:01:17,700
And I think like you the work you're doing is just such a good example of like at the end

2048
02:01:17,700 --> 02:01:21,540
of the day, the proof's in the pudding and you're just doing a wonderful job like in

2049
02:01:21,700 --> 02:01:27,380
providing insight to these important things like shame and um uh guilt and and pride and

2050
02:01:27,380 --> 02:01:28,420
and and things like that.

2051
02:01:29,930 --> 02:01:31,850
Beautiful is the is the is the correct word.

2052
02:01:32,010 --> 02:01:37,210
Um when when I do look at your work, Daniel, I am sort of confronted with a feeling of

2053
02:01:37,290 --> 02:01:39,290
scientific or epistemic beauty.

2054
02:01:39,370 --> 02:01:45,290
Just the elegance, the parsimony, the the the the powerful effect sizes, the cross

2055
02:01:45,370 --> 02:01:46,730
cultural regularities.

2056
02:01:46,890 --> 02:01:51,690
You you you get the sense that you're you know, you're glimpsing the contours of human

2057
02:01:51,690 --> 02:01:54,730
nature uh in your work and it's it's really beautiful to behold.

2058
02:01:55,050 --> 02:01:55,370
Yeah.

2059
02:01:55,700 --> 02:01:56,820
That's high price.

2060
02:01:56,980 --> 02:02:02,420
If uh one person doesn't find what I do worthless then that I have achieved.

2061
02:02:02,580 --> 02:02:08,420
Uh yeah, that would be completely uh a completely inappropriate low

2062
02:02:08,420 --> 02:02:09,620
bar for the private sector.

2063
02:02:09,780 --> 02:02:15,700
But given that I'm a government employee, I think that's a high uh breakthrough

2064
02:02:15,780 --> 02:02:21,510
and for which I'm very grateful uh to my life givers

2065
02:02:21,750 --> 02:02:26,550
to being lida and also to your company of great intellect and and

2066
02:02:27,510 --> 02:02:33,430
mensch fullness okay uh fantastic well wonderful daniel thank you uh and uh uh thanks

2067
02:02:33,430 --> 02:02:38,070
again for being here uh more fun thank you thank you so much yeah good to see bye bye bye

2068
02:02:42,710 --> 02:02:48,200
wow you're still listening good for you i i'm proud I'm proud of you.

2069
02:02:48,360 --> 02:02:49,320
I'm proud of me.

2070
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:50,520
I'm proud of us.

2071
02:02:50,760 --> 02:02:56,280
Uh what else can you do to express your pride for having listened to this uh wonderful

2072
02:02:56,280 --> 02:03:02,120
episode and avoid the shame of uh well, I don't know what you'd be ashamed of,

2073
02:03:02,200 --> 02:03:03,720
but what what can you do to support us, Dave?

2074
02:03:03,960 --> 02:03:08,040
Um well what you I mean well before you even do that, I mean you could look we'll put a

2075
02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:10,120
link to Daniel's info in the show notes.

2076
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:11,430
You can look at Daniel.

2077
02:03:11,830 --> 02:03:14,230
Honestly, every single thing this guy has written is gold.

2078
02:03:14,310 --> 02:03:17,590
So I would recommend just reading through his research catalog.

2079
02:03:17,910 --> 02:03:19,750
Daniel's a beautiful writer, too.

2080
02:03:19,990 --> 02:03:20,390
Oh yeah.

2081
02:03:21,030 --> 02:03:21,750
Just to say, yeah.

2082
02:03:21,830 --> 02:03:22,870
So definitely.

2083
02:03:23,190 --> 02:03:23,510
Yeah.

2084
02:03:23,670 --> 02:03:29,670
Um, but uh, but if and as far as we're concerned, you know, keep listening.

2085
02:03:29,830 --> 02:03:35,480
Um you know, subscribe, like, um, leave a positive review.

2086
02:03:35,960 --> 02:03:38,360
Um, I'm really tell a friend.

2087
02:03:38,680 --> 02:03:39,880
Yeah, that would be really helpful.

2088
02:03:40,040 --> 02:03:43,640
I mean, I think I really do like the idea of shouting it to other people, but don't

2089
02:03:43,720 --> 02:03:44,680
probably don't do that.

2090
02:03:45,000 --> 02:03:45,400
Yeah.

2091
02:03:45,560 --> 02:03:51,000
Um, but yeah, and and and also you can you know contribute to our Patreon account if you

2092
02:03:51,000 --> 02:03:53,960
want to be really generous and feel really proud of yourself.

2093
02:03:54,280 --> 02:03:55,800
Yeah, that sounds good.

2094
02:03:55,960 --> 02:04:01,730
So, and just you know, take a moment to be proud of yourself for something that

2095
02:04:01,730 --> 02:04:03,330
you're gonna do this week.

2096
02:04:03,650 --> 02:04:05,410
Yeah, but don't don't be too proud.

2097
02:04:05,490 --> 02:04:07,090
Don't be arrogant, because that that would be bad.

2098
02:04:07,330 --> 02:04:11,650
Yeah, if you're listening and you're arrogant, don't be, but if you're not arrogant, do it.

2099
02:04:11,970 --> 02:04:15,650
But do people I have a question: do people who are arrogant think they're arrogant?

2100
02:04:15,890 --> 02:04:18,850
Hmm, that might be the topic of a whole new episode.

2101
02:04:19,090 --> 02:04:21,170
Ooh, yeah, maybe we have to have some people back.

2102
02:04:21,330 --> 02:04:21,570
Okay.

2103
02:04:21,650 --> 02:04:24,290
Well, and on that note, have a good week and we'll see you next week.

2104
02:04:24,660 --> 02:04:25,940
See you next week.