WEBVTT

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This is Evolutionary Psychology, the podcast.

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Actual Evolutionary Psychology by Actual Evolutionary Psychologists.

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Who is our guest, Dave?

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It is Daniel Schnitzer.

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The great, the preeminent.

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Uh Daniel Schneezer.

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Yes.

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Uh what what is there to say about this guy?

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He's so lovely, uh, so funny.

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Uh research is is is absolutely brilliant, beautiful.

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He's really pushing the the boundaries of sort of like functionalist approaches to

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emotions, evolutionary approaches to emotions, particularly things like shame, pride,

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guilt, Um, and you know, there's a lot to unpack about how those work and th they're really

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important and there's sort of a trope that like shame is useless, for example.

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Um, and we really cover the ground of sort of the history and then also like what what's

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the evidence and what's the argument for what's the logic for why we have this emotion.

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Yeah.

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A lot of fun things came up in this conversation, whether self-esteem is bullshit, the

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three breasted woman from Total Recall, uh traveling, uh uh whether uh

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reading uh long uh boring books makes you a better person.

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Uh this was a really fun conversation.

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Oh yeah, you had sort of like a fire around well, what is that called when you like it's uh

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I gave him some stumpers.

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Yeah, you gave him some stumpers, yeah.

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That's right.

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And it was fun to kind of tackle those.

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Yeah, maybe we can have that as a segment.

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Like, Yeah, maybe we should do a recurring thing where we where we stump the guest.

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Stump the guest.

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Ooh, good.

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And maybe we can f dial a friend.

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Oh yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then we can give the guest a million dollars if they get it right.

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Uh well w maybe we uh quote unquote, we can get it.

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Well let's let's wait and see if maybe more people support us on Patreon and then we can

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use the Patreon funds for that project.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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It'll be some dollar amount.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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It'll be a it'll be to the left of the decimal point.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Enjoy it.

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Without further ado, Daniel Schnitzer.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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So today we are very blessed to have Daniel Schnitzer on.

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We were just going over a pronunciation of your name.

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Um, I I my name is horrible, Petra Zuski, and my dad has like three uncles, and they each

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pronounce it differently.

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Is that true in your family?

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Does everybody pronounce it differently?

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Uh in Spanish it's more uh uh common, but in in in Polish it would be

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Petroszywzewski.

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Oh I didn't realize your name was Pietrofkitting.

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No, no, no, yeah.

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No, uh the correct Polish way for my name is uh Pietroszewski.

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Pietroszewski.

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I went to Warsaw and somebody I checked in a hotel, and it was the first time in my life

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where they were like, I didn't they weren't asking me how to say it.

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And then I said, so they so I asked them, like, how do I say my name?

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And then they said it.

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And then I said, um, my then I then them were like, well, how do you say your name to me?

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And I was like, Petrozuski.

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And then they like stopped for a second.

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They were like, Well, it is your name.

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I guess you could say it however you want.

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So they were very, very kind about it.

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But uh Daniel, we're very happy to have you here.

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Likewise.

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Uh great to be here with you.

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Um, and we've we've had some people on, we've talked about anger and emotions.

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Um, you study, as far as I understand it, what is considered

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self-conscious emotions.

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Um, that term uh is that I think I even sort of came

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across that term most consistently in some of your reviews of the past literature.

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Can you tell people a little bit about what is that?

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And then there's two options.

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One is either, you know, how do you think about what you study and is it different than

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that?

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And then the other option is sort of like what's the history of that research on

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self-conscious emotions.

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Uh okay, those you ask uh many uh questions.

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Uh and it's a question.

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We're professional questions.

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I'm gonna give you 10 questions.

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I thought we were gonna talk about TV shows and TV diners and now you give me

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a question to you.

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Yeah, I know.

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Can I check my notes?

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Can I chat we sand?

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Yeah, we were like we were just chatting for like 20 minutes about nothing, and then boom,

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yeah, exactly.

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No, we have plenty of time.

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We can edit out you searching chat GPT.

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No, no, for s for real.

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Yeah.

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So I'll I'll check GPT if I uh exactly.

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But what's up with the emotions?

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Yeah.

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So so uh you're getting me self-conscious now, but uh the thing began back in the

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early days when I was uh a young boy, I guess.

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And Tubi grabbed me by the uh John Tubi Graphic.

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John Tubi.

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The the great John Tubi, yeah.

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Yeah, grabbed me by the by the shirt and he told me, Sonny, uh you're gonna study shame.

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And I said, Yes, sir, uh whatever you say I'll do.

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Um Okay, and uh the self conscious emotion, yeah.

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So so your origin story for getting into this area was uh John Tubi told me to.

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Yes.

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Okay, that's a pretty good reason, which is the best way to start any research project.

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So yeah, I started doing that, and the self conscious uh moniker is a

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moniker that comes from uh psychodynamics and Freudian, I think, uh

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ways of looking at shame.

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And uh there's a prehistory of this which I'm a little bit shady on.

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I and I should know much more than I do.

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But what I can say, there's a woman named HR Block.

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Uh HR Lewis.

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No, HR Block is the taxes.

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HR Lewis, uh, and she was a psychologist, she

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was a clinician, and she was of the idea that uh shame and

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guilt were self-conscious in that um now

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emerging with her disciple of uh or some some more experimental person who

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took research from H.R.

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Lewis and translated more into the research context, uh Jun Tangney.

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Her object of study is not so much shame and guilt, but rather the

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contrast between shame and guilt, like in free variation, uh,

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like two sounds that you can make in free variation.

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So, in some context, uh you can make two different sounds in

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a language, and linguists refer to that as free variation.

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And June uh was important in

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establishing uh differences, similarities and differences in shame and guilt.

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Basically, when people feel guilt, uh they,

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at least in the American reports of the label guilt, they appro it it's kind of an approach

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and make up and apologize and uh stuff like that.

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And the theme in shame is uh illusion, avoidance, um,

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and um uh escape.

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And uh she was very instrumental in alerting people to these

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interesting differences.

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Uh when you mess up, when you screw up, people feel people say that they feel shame, they

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feel guilt, they feel embarrassed, and and we go back and forth with these labels.

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Uh, although there's some for some reason, people they're

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they tend to roughly match what we believe is the reputation management uh system

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to the shame level and uh imposing undue costs on someone that

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you value the guilt label.

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Okay, the all of this is boring and academic and no one cares.

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But uh they they're we're done with the episode now.

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Okay.

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They pay me to they pay me to dissertate about things that no one cares.

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So I'm um I'm inured to it.

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So I'm gonna do it.

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I love the verb dissertate.

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I'm gonna I'm gonna do it unless and until you you you stop me.

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Uh no we're gonna children tell me all the all to shut up all the time, so

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I'm I'm also inured to that, so you can tell me to shut up anytime and I'm happy.

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I'm happy.

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So the so so shame is about hiding, escaping the situation, covering

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yourself up.

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Um guilt is about eva evasion evasion evasion is a good label.

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Yeah.

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Evasion.

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So shame is about evasion.

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Guilt is about apologizing and making amends.

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Is that a fair characterization of the distinction that had been in the literature for for

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a while?

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And yeah, and June was uh very important in uh uh recognizing these

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facts and sorting what goes with what, and saying that there's similarity that that

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in the general scene when you screw up, uh people may feel shame, people may feel guilt,

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people may feel embarrassment.

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And one question that she elaborated in her career is what are the conditions under which

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what functions, if any, these things have, and do they have functions at all?

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And what are the conditions that elicit these emotions?

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And her answer, based on her reading of Helen Lewis and her own research,

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is that shame is the poor cousin of guilt.

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Um if you uh this is the free variation, there are two elements that could uh

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two alleles that could uh compete for a uh place in the in the lousa in the

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locus uh of evolutionary genetics reference to make things easier for

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to use the sim very you you you you can you can feel one thing or the other thing in this

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context and they're more or less interchangeable except that they're not interchangeable in

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the sense that if you have a healthy attributional style if you if you've been socialized

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to and you had socialization is a big uh aspect of this theory, and

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maybe other things too.

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But if you had a good socialization with nurturing parents and uh a healthy way

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to disentangle that maybe you're not stupid necessarily because you failed the exam, you

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can correctly you know give yourself a break, etc.

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Uh, then you impute that uh unfortunate event to something specific about

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yourself.

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It's the self judging the self or some part of the self, uh judging the

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self.

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And it's it's very much what it's a very much it's very much a psychodynamic

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intra-personal question.

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It's how I uh judge the event.

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So if I judge the event as reflecting poorly upon my whole self, and that's the

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maladaptive slash pathological, pathogenic, uh bad and

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ugly way to do it, uh the system s flips to shame.

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And why?

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Well, because thinking oh bad dad, so my my daughter says bad daddy, bad

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daddy.

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If I screw up the exam or the whatever, I didn't tip the waitress or something.

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If I if I for whatever reason I my judgment of myself is bad daddy, bad Daniel,

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yuck, disgusting self, uh, I feel shame because it's very

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painful.

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And the pain of the attribution makes me want to escape and uh hide,

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etc.

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And there's uh June recognizes that there's a paradoxical thing that Chef uh it's he's a

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guy, so it's very interesting.

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Sociologist at UCSB, he studied shame, he studied something he called the shame rage

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cycle, and he, in marital disputes and so on, he sees that you know, uh,

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I'm ashamed for something that I did, I lash out in anger at my wife and then

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my wife is hurt and I feel additional shame now in addition to the baseline shame but

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now I have shame about the rage and I have further taint to my honor and I need further

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aggression maybe an honor killing in order to uh paper over the slide or something.

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That sounds like it makes absolutely no sense.

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I don't usually I don't usually engage in onorky links.

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I have never done it so far.

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Okay.

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I think David meant the science, not the um but anyway, yeah.

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But it's good to know both my own.

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I was referring to the the shame leading to rage leading to shame model of how this uh I

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don't understand that.

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It sounds terrible.

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I mean, just if it does happen, but uh so just to just so we're on the same page.

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So self-referential emotions, the self-refer or self-conscious it's self-referential.

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I misspoke.

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So basically, it's that there is a there is a representation of not only the social world

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and others and how I feel about them.

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Are you nice?

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Are you good?

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For some reason, so far, which the theories haven't come up with or talked about, there's

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another set of uh attention placed upon the self.

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And then there's an evaluation of as I'm bumbling through the world, doing good things and

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bad things, there's an attribution to like if I I'm the source of this good thing or bad

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thing, how do I feel about that?

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And then how does that in consequence, if I attribute it a bad thing to myself, all of a

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sudden I'm judging myself if it's self-referential.

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And then there are these emotions when the detection of I've judged that bad,

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Dave, bad.

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That's a very good um summary.

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Yes.

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And there are good emotions and bad emotions, and this model applies to guilt and shame,

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the bad pair, and also to what Tiny calls alpha pride and beta pride.

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If you achieve uh and you attribute to the self, that's alpha pride, uh, Jessica Tracy

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calls that hubris, uh hubris, the arrogant

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variety of pride, uh, whereas if you impute the success to something

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transient, unstable about yourself, controllable,

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then that's beta pride, slash authentic pride, slash achievement

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oriented pride.

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We're writing a paper on pride.

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And there's not much of a question of why there should be these things in the head,

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which are the functions of these things.

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They they're universe or their referential frame is

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these things happen, there's an antecedent to these things, so the antecedent is king here.

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But moreover, uh Jessica Tracy, then in further models, she incorporates the social

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view.

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But Tanny says explicitly in some papers that um not only

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these things are about the self, but emphatically she thinks that these things are very

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much not about other people.

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Uh any which is I think weird, but uh interesting.

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Interesting, nevertheless, uh testable.

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We have tested that recently with Mitchell Landers and Patrick Durkey.

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And uh yep, and um so okay, so and the the

00:15:40.210 --> 00:15:45.010
the data in the the data in support of these uh so-called attributional theories of

00:15:45.010 --> 00:15:50.450
self-conscious self-conscious emotions are mostly correlational.

00:15:51.410 --> 00:15:56.210
Uh, for example, they find correlations between your attributional style more more to more

00:15:56.450 --> 00:16:02.280
bad daddy goes with shame, and I should have studied more goes with guilt as they

00:16:02.280 --> 00:16:02.840
predict.

00:16:03.400 --> 00:16:03.880
But the teacher.

00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:06.840
So individual differences and tendency to do these things.

00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:07.480
Exactly.

00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:07.720
Yes.

00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:08.440
Got it.

00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:09.080
Yes.

00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:14.520
You know, it it's I guess it uh meshes with the clinical framework.

00:16:14.680 --> 00:16:14.840
Right.

00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.080
There's variation among people, there's healthier people with healthier attributional

00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:19.640
styles.

00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:24.600
And there's more pathological people, pathological, pathogenic, whatever people.

00:16:25.090 --> 00:16:29.890
There's an interesting, there's a very interesting paper of Tanyi on on the a number of

00:16:29.890 --> 00:16:31.730
papers on the correlates of shame.

00:16:31.890 --> 00:16:36.770
Fantastically informative and important work on the correlates of shame.

00:16:36.850 --> 00:16:41.410
And shame correlates with a whole bunch of interesting things.

00:16:41.970 --> 00:16:47.810
It correlates with suicidality, it correlates with feelings of inferiority, with feeling

00:16:47.810 --> 00:16:53.340
small, wanting to hide, um in the clinic with

00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:58.220
paranoia, with anxiety, with all the kind of all all

00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:04.780
items that you would predict uh if you adopt a more functionalist or

00:17:04.940 --> 00:17:10.700
adaptationist uh interpersonal view of this emotion, as in you screwed up, you

00:17:10.700 --> 00:17:16.220
emitted costs, and people are aware of these costs and now uh they

00:17:16.220 --> 00:17:21.250
recalibrate how much they value you, and that's uh fitness uh decreasing.

00:17:21.410 --> 00:17:27.090
And the question is how to evade detection, evade the their

00:17:27.090 --> 00:17:28.690
imposition of costs, etc.

00:17:29.090 --> 00:17:29.170
Okay.

00:17:29.410 --> 00:17:35.250
So let me let me see if I can s summarize what but put a put put a footnote

00:17:35.250 --> 00:17:38.210
that the evidence is is correlational.

00:17:38.530 --> 00:17:43.890
There's a few experiments, but the experiments were confirm in the confirmationist uh

00:17:44.210 --> 00:17:47.880
framework or uh things to confirm.

00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:52.600
And we've recently f uh run falsificationist approach.

00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:57.400
But yeah, go go ahead and we'll setting the stage for Daniel Sneezer to come in and tell

00:17:57.400 --> 00:17:58.440
everyone why they're wrong.

00:17:58.680 --> 00:17:58.920
Exactly.

00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:03.240
So you've let you've laid the groundwork for the pre-existing research that has been done

00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:04.600
on shame and pride.

00:18:04.760 --> 00:18:06.680
And it's mostly it's descriptive.

00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:11.950
It's, you know, shame is about David is bad, guilt is about David did a bad thing, Pride,

00:18:12.270 --> 00:18:14.510
there's authentic pride and hubristic pride.

00:18:14.670 --> 00:18:16.750
Hubistic pride is David is awesome.

00:18:16.990 --> 00:18:19.630
Authentic pride is David did an awesome thing.

00:18:20.110 --> 00:18:25.070
And this is coming from not an evolutionary functionalist approach, but more of a how do we

00:18:25.070 --> 00:18:25.870
make people feel better?

00:18:26.030 --> 00:18:27.470
How do we fight mental illness?

00:18:27.710 --> 00:18:33.600
And so the thinking there is, oh, well, shame is bad because you're thinking that you

00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:36.640
yourself are bad, that's gonna lead to depression and suicidality.

00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.560
So we want to avoid shame, shame is bad, guilt is better, it's it's not about you, it's

00:18:40.560 --> 00:18:41.440
about what you did.

00:18:41.600 --> 00:18:44.320
Um so shame is a bad emotion, guilt is okay.

00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.760
When it comes to pride, uh you don't want to be too arrogant and think that you yourself

00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:49.760
are awesome, you want to attribute it to what you did.

00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:54.890
So uh, you know, hubristic pride bad, um authentic pride good.

00:18:55.050 --> 00:18:58.170
I mean, it's even baked into the words authentic has positive connotations.

00:18:58.250 --> 00:19:02.090
So this is basically the paradigm where we're we're thinking in terms of good or bad

00:19:02.090 --> 00:19:05.930
emotions, in terms of mental health, not in terms of what their underlying functions are

00:19:05.930 --> 00:19:08.090
and why they exist, why they're in the head.

00:19:08.250 --> 00:19:13.050
Um, but we are now we are on the evolutionary psychology podcast, and we want to know why

00:19:13.050 --> 00:19:15.050
these systems are in the head.

00:19:15.130 --> 00:19:19.210
Uh and so that's where Daniel Sneer comes in and tells us why are these systems.

00:19:20.010 --> 00:19:23.180
I I I very much agree with uh platforming me.

00:19:23.340 --> 00:19:28.860
I've been deplatform, but you're platforming me, so I'm very happy and I thank thank you

00:19:28.860 --> 00:19:29.340
very much.

00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:35.180
But before I'm being I'm platforming myself about my my theory and Tubi's

00:19:35.260 --> 00:19:41.180
theory, I we should say that a public choice theory of

00:19:41.180 --> 00:19:46.300
why people do what they do, including ourselves, is the the more funding is needed theory

00:19:46.300 --> 00:19:47.740
of everything of academia.

00:19:47.900 --> 00:19:53.130
We are government employees and we do what they pay us to do, and if they pay us to find

00:19:53.130 --> 00:19:56.410
things we find and if they pay us to not find things we don't find.

00:19:56.650 --> 00:20:02.650
And um and the the what they pay and I'm not saying this dismissively, we uh

00:20:02.650 --> 00:20:07.690
everyone is an apparatus, everyone is uh government here in Academia, most of people not

00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:13.610
you not talented people like you Pinsov who made it in the real world, but uh

00:20:13.690 --> 00:20:18.890
and also smart people that but um okay.

00:20:19.180 --> 00:20:21.100
So everybody listen.

00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:27.660
So so so what so Tangni, and again, this is not this I I have high respect for her.

00:20:27.900 --> 00:20:31.500
Tangni is being paid to do clinician work.

00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:35.900
And she I believe she does uh I don't know if she's a clinician or not, but okay.

00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:41.650
So um yes, exactly like you said, there's uh

00:20:42.450 --> 00:20:47.890
the if shame is associated with bad things, in the clinical uh uh

00:20:48.210 --> 00:20:53.490
scene, we want to help people to avoid bad things and to be happy.

00:20:53.730 --> 00:20:59.090
And it stands to reason that if guilt is associated with more making up and restoring the

00:20:59.090 --> 00:21:04.960
relationship and etc., Then maybe it stands to reason that uh and and

00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:10.880
people in shame go crazy and kill their daughters or more more salary

00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.320
they kill themselves or they harm their wives, etc.

00:21:16.560 --> 00:21:18.960
It stands to reason that you want to fix that.

00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:24.800
But but so so maybe there's a link between the what they pay you for and what you

00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:30.610
find, And uh, but like you said, also it's important to note that one big goal of the

00:21:30.610 --> 00:21:35.090
clinical work on this is to remove or minimize the experience of shame.

00:21:35.170 --> 00:21:39.090
So, shame is a bad thing, uh, it's not a messenger of bad news.

00:21:39.330 --> 00:21:42.130
It there's an analogy straightforward with the physical pain system.

00:21:42.290 --> 00:21:46.770
Uh, you feel pain, you pay you take painkillers, but actually, physical pain is a highly

00:21:46.770 --> 00:21:47.970
organized adaptation.

00:21:48.700 --> 00:21:50.860
The bad thing is the damage to the tissue.

00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:54.380
And if you don't have physical pain, you die young because you're harming, you're burning

00:21:54.380 --> 00:21:57.180
yourself and you're not removing your hand.

00:21:57.500 --> 00:22:00.460
And so there's a I think there's a direct analogy with that.

00:22:00.620 --> 00:22:05.820
And in the clinical context, if you um they want to get rid of the bad stuff and shame is

00:22:05.820 --> 00:22:11.670
in the ledger of the bad stuff, but okay, now I can platform myself, and uh but but but

00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:17.670
we believe that sh shame is not the bad thing but the the bad thing is the consequences of

00:22:17.670 --> 00:22:23.110
being demoted uh in the representation of value in the heads of other people when

00:22:23.350 --> 00:22:28.550
information reaches their brain and those are badly sorry let's unpack that so th the the

00:22:28.550 --> 00:22:34.420
representation of value in other people's brains is being demoted when you

00:22:34.420 --> 00:22:35.060
feel shame.

00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:38.580
So what what let's unpack all what is a representation of value?

00:22:38.740 --> 00:22:40.660
What makes it go up or down?

00:22:42.100 --> 00:22:47.940
Okay, so uh Tubi and Lida got a grant in 2005, the

00:22:48.100 --> 00:22:54.020
grant in NIH to do explore uh their brilliant ideas that they had since the 90s,

00:22:54.100 --> 00:22:58.500
or perhaps since they were born, because they came to the world with all the knowledge.

00:22:58.980 --> 00:23:03.910
And uh there was uh there was a lot of work in our lab, this the

00:23:03.910 --> 00:23:09.910
CPUCSB lab under Tubion Lida and and our and other labs too, but but uh

00:23:09.990 --> 00:23:15.510
the idea is that the brain has machinery for um

00:23:16.150 --> 00:23:21.590
things, events, states of affairs, partners, anything, pretty much anything has

00:23:21.750 --> 00:23:26.710
positive, negative, or neutral effects on the probability that your genes will replicate in

00:23:26.710 --> 00:23:32.600
the long term, and we expect um organisms designed by selection to have

00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:38.840
ways to capture the goods and to like the okay I I I I I I

00:23:38.840 --> 00:23:44.600
am usually okay like the standard uh the the JAS standard

00:23:44.760 --> 00:23:50.760
accentuate the positives eliminate the negatives uh it's a nineteen forty Bing Crosby

00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:55.470
I think uh we can put it in the show notes.

00:23:55.550 --> 00:23:57.150
Yeah, there's a lot that'll be great.

00:23:57.310 --> 00:24:00.910
I'm trying to be weedy because I think people are trying to be weedy in these things, but

00:24:00.990 --> 00:24:01.630
uh I don't know.

00:24:02.190 --> 00:24:02.830
Tell me anime.

00:24:03.390 --> 00:24:04.590
Can I can I pause real quick?

00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:09.550
So, like um so like for example, Daniel, if you're a really good cook and it's easier for

00:24:09.550 --> 00:24:15.550
you to cook and like get food than it is for me, and you're just really good at it, um

00:24:15.870 --> 00:24:20.060
you're and there's sort of positive externalities for me.

00:24:20.300 --> 00:24:25.180
Um, whether it's sort of reciprocal or it's just a positive externality or a mutualism.

00:24:25.340 --> 00:24:29.580
We sort of talked about that on the podcast, but sort of I'm going through the world, sort

00:24:29.580 --> 00:24:35.420
of looking for the events, as you put it, or attributes of people that are

00:24:35.420 --> 00:24:37.580
sort of more beneficial to me.

00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:41.500
And I should be designed by natural selection, or my mechanisms precisely, should be

00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:47.450
designed to value aspects of you or you compared to David, for example, if you have

00:24:47.450 --> 00:24:50.570
more of these things or you have this thing and David doesn't have any.

00:24:52.170 --> 00:24:53.930
So uh is that is that right?

00:24:54.330 --> 00:24:55.370
Well let me back up.

00:24:55.450 --> 00:24:59.050
So so we first have the broader concept of value, which is just anything that has a

00:24:59.050 --> 00:25:02.970
positive or negative effect on the fitness of the valuer, right?

00:25:03.050 --> 00:25:09.000
That natural selection designed our value systems to uh track fitness regularities,

00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:13.880
stuff that promoted our fitness ancestrally will have value to us in the present moment.

00:25:14.520 --> 00:25:20.280
And so anything can have value from a desk to a chair to a piece of food to

00:25:20.520 --> 00:25:22.920
a predator will have highly low value.

00:25:23.800 --> 00:25:26.360
A potential disease will have really negative value.

00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:29.240
An attractive mate might have really positive value.

00:25:29.450 --> 00:25:32.170
Um, a beautiful landscape might have really positive value.

00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:34.890
So that's just the broader concept of value can apply to anything.

00:25:35.050 --> 00:25:40.410
But within that broader subset, we can look at people and say, does this person have

00:25:40.410 --> 00:25:42.650
positive or negative value for me?

00:25:42.890 --> 00:25:47.530
Is this the type of person that would have positive that would have had positive fitness

00:25:47.850 --> 00:25:48.410
consequences?

00:25:48.970 --> 00:25:49.210
Yeah.

00:25:49.370 --> 00:25:51.450
Positive fitness affordances for me.

00:25:51.610 --> 00:25:57.440
Um, and if so, uh I want to spend more time with that person and try to get some of

00:25:57.440 --> 00:25:59.040
those benefits from that person.

00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:04.960
If this is person has low fitness value to me or would have ancestral or has cues of low

00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:09.120
fitness value, um, then I want to avoid that person, stay away from them, etc.

00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:10.960
Is that a good summary of the way you're thinking about it?

00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:12.080
That's a great summary, yes.

00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:12.400
Okay.

00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:18.000
And so there is a very rich and uh complex, we believe, uh, psychology for imputing value,

00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.320
positive or negative, to other people.

00:26:20.730 --> 00:26:26.730
And some elements of value computation may be similar across domains, but

00:26:28.890 --> 00:26:34.650
a workhorse or a or a part of the identity of

00:26:34.650 --> 00:26:40.490
F-Syche is if Psych spent, I think, I don't know, just to pull the number out of my

00:26:40.490 --> 00:26:46.260
head, 50% or 70%, I think a huge part of F EP work,

00:26:46.420 --> 00:26:48.740
F-Syc work, is on value computation.

00:26:49.220 --> 00:26:55.060
Mate value and partner value and landscape value, food value.

00:26:55.940 --> 00:27:01.460
And there are specificities in how the mind computes the value of people

00:27:02.100 --> 00:27:07.950
or partners, like Lida is fond of saying, if I evaluate uh John as

00:27:07.950 --> 00:27:13.150
a mate the way I would evaluate a piece of food, then I would take the cue of richness

00:27:13.230 --> 00:27:15.470
that's that's proper to do for foods.

00:27:15.550 --> 00:27:20.990
Uh richness may be a cue to fat content, uh which is important for important nutrient.

00:27:21.070 --> 00:27:26.430
Uh but if I apply that cue to computing the value of people, then that's that's doesn't

00:27:26.510 --> 00:27:26.590
work.

00:27:27.070 --> 00:27:28.910
You don't want to eat your mate and copulate with your food.

00:27:29.150 --> 00:27:29.710
That would be disaster.

00:27:30.510 --> 00:27:34.510
Or what Leah said is I would have married a uh she she put it succinctly, is I would have

00:27:34.510 --> 00:27:35.470
married a chocolate bar.

00:27:35.820 --> 00:27:36.940
I would have married a chocolate bar.

00:27:37.020 --> 00:27:37.500
Yes, that's right.

00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:42.300
And the argument there is the argument there is that value is not just general, there are

00:27:42.300 --> 00:27:44.460
domain-specific uh values.

00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:49.020
So what's what makes a food value valuable is going to be different than what makes a mate

00:27:49.020 --> 00:27:53.820
valuable, which will be different than what makes, say, an ally valuable, or a piece of

00:27:53.820 --> 00:27:56.140
furniture valuable, or a landscape valuable.

00:27:56.300 --> 00:27:59.660
So we have domain-specific criteria for evaluating things.

00:27:59.980 --> 00:28:00.060
Right.

00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:04.060
And just to say out loud, and this is I feel like we're recapitulating the CP, we're like

00:28:04.060 --> 00:28:06.130
taking first principles here, like Big Bang.

00:28:06.290 --> 00:28:11.410
But the evaluation of value has been something traditionally, and you guys can tell me if

00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:15.170
you agree with this, has been very much sort of an instinct blindness in psychology.

00:28:15.250 --> 00:28:20.290
And I think taking an evolutionary approach, the idea that the software or the evolved

00:28:20.290 --> 00:28:26.290
organism needs to compute value is something that it's very hard to think when you're

00:28:26.290 --> 00:28:29.570
just the organism itself and you're just like, well, of course, like, you know, things are

00:28:29.570 --> 00:28:31.040
beautiful, like this is beautiful.

00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:31.760
I like food.

00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:32.640
This tastes good.

00:28:32.800 --> 00:28:33.440
Well, why is that?

00:28:33.520 --> 00:28:33.920
Why is that?

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:34.960
Well, it just is, right?

00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:40.480
So taking an evolutionary approach forces you to, um, and this is very much the tube point,

00:28:40.800 --> 00:28:42.320
not take anything for granted.

00:28:42.560 --> 00:28:45.040
We talked about this, we had Debon and we talked about that a lot.

00:28:45.120 --> 00:28:46.880
Like you don't, and so why is it good?

00:28:47.040 --> 00:28:52.880
It's because there's some valueslash corresponding outcome in the world that corresponds to

00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:53.840
to fitness, right?

00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:59.950
So like water, nutrients, um, surviving, having social support, et cetera,

00:29:00.030 --> 00:29:00.510
et cetera.

00:29:00.590 --> 00:29:00.990
So yeah.

00:29:01.310 --> 00:29:01.550
Yeah.

00:29:01.790 --> 00:29:02.190
Exactly.

00:29:02.270 --> 00:29:02.590
Yeah.

00:29:03.230 --> 00:29:05.070
There's no objective value there's in addition to the same thing.

00:29:05.310 --> 00:29:06.750
So we just established value.

00:29:06.990 --> 00:29:07.230
Yep.

00:29:07.630 --> 00:29:11.310
And we have people, so not only value in general, but value of people.

00:29:11.470 --> 00:29:11.790
Okay.

00:29:11.950 --> 00:29:13.230
So we have those building blocks.

00:29:13.390 --> 00:29:14.670
What do you do with those building blocks?

00:29:14.750 --> 00:29:16.270
How does shame fit into this?

00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:22.760
Well, so uh once you have that in place or co-evolving with the psychology of

00:29:22.760 --> 00:29:28.360
value, you have a number of adaptive problems that arise from the existence of this

00:29:28.360 --> 00:29:34.360
machinery and you know uh promoting the higher value in

00:29:34.360 --> 00:29:35.640
the brains of other people.

00:29:36.040 --> 00:29:40.310
Um, so like if you can evaluate me.

00:29:40.710 --> 00:29:46.550
So Daniel, the moment that like the software is in you to evaluate other agents according

00:29:46.550 --> 00:29:49.830
to like what value they have, that's a problem for me now.

00:29:50.310 --> 00:29:55.590
Because I don't want to be in your category of a bad

00:29:56.230 --> 00:29:56.550
person.

00:29:57.350 --> 00:29:57.510
Right.

00:29:57.590 --> 00:30:02.620
That would be design so if you if you have view me as low value, or if everyone in my

00:30:02.620 --> 00:30:07.820
social environment views me as a low value social partner, that is catastrophic for my

00:30:07.820 --> 00:30:08.300
fitness.

00:30:08.380 --> 00:30:10.940
It's equivalent than to death.

00:30:11.020 --> 00:30:13.580
Um even perhaps even worse than than death.

00:30:13.740 --> 00:30:17.420
You know, no one's going to want to mate with me, no one's want going to want to help me or

00:30:17.420 --> 00:30:20.220
take my side or support me in any way.

00:30:20.380 --> 00:30:22.860
Um so that is a huge fitness cost.

00:30:22.940 --> 00:30:25.420
So the what you're talking about is a really big adaptive problem.

00:30:25.580 --> 00:30:29.580
How do I make others in my social uh environment value me?

00:30:30.490 --> 00:30:32.170
It's yes, very much so.

00:30:32.330 --> 00:30:37.930
It's a representation in the brain that is not just a pattern of beats in the

00:30:37.930 --> 00:30:43.530
brain, but it translates into very real consequences because these

00:30:43.850 --> 00:30:49.770
in in a simple model of how this value person partner value works, these

00:30:49.850 --> 00:30:55.660
uh magnitudes set thresholds on, for example, in uh altruistic

00:30:55.820 --> 00:30:59.820
in decisions on whether to be altruistic with other people, these things set the set

00:30:59.820 --> 00:31:04.540
thresholds of what's the highest cost that you would incur in order to benefit other

00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:10.140
someone else by a given set of but a fixed number of benefits and reciprocal.

00:31:11.820 --> 00:31:17.810
So if I value you, Daniel Sneezer, I'm going to be willing to make big sacrifices to

00:31:17.810 --> 00:31:18.690
benefit you.

00:31:18.930 --> 00:31:24.770
But if I don't value you, then I am not willing to do much of anything to benefit you.

00:31:24.930 --> 00:31:28.770
And in fact, I might even do things that hurt you because your welfare just doesn't matter

00:31:28.770 --> 00:31:29.250
to me at all.

00:31:29.410 --> 00:31:29.650
Right.

00:31:29.730 --> 00:31:33.090
So I might just in going about my life, I might bump into you or step on your whatever.

00:31:33.170 --> 00:31:34.770
You have low value to me, so who cares?

00:31:34.930 --> 00:31:38.530
But if I really value you, I'm going to, you know, avoid stepping on you and bumping into

00:31:38.530 --> 00:31:38.610
you.

00:31:38.690 --> 00:31:40.770
I'm going to do things to help you if I can.

00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:45.730
If I can benefit you really highly at a low cost to myself, I'm going to do that.

00:31:46.290 --> 00:31:50.040
And even if I could if I can benefit you really highly at a high cost myself, I might even

00:31:50.040 --> 00:31:52.040
do that because you're just so valuable to me.

00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:57.720
So it's so uh how much we value people directly translates into how we treat them, into the

00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.840
things we actually do uh in in the world that affect them.

00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:01.720
Yes.

00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:07.240
In in a toy model of this uh value variable uh these this runs in theory from minus

00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:11.790
infinite to plus infinite If I value you positively, I'm willing to sacrifice for your

00:32:11.790 --> 00:32:12.190
welfare.

00:32:12.430 --> 00:32:17.470
If I value you at exactly zero, I'm not willing to lift a finger to save your life if

00:32:17.470 --> 00:32:18.670
you're drowning, for example.

00:32:18.830 --> 00:32:22.830
If if I could spend one penny to save your life and the life of your family, etc.

00:32:23.150 --> 00:32:25.950
I wouldn't if I value you at exactly zero.

00:32:26.110 --> 00:32:28.270
But I wouldn't spitefully impose costs on you.

00:32:28.350 --> 00:32:33.320
If I value you negatively, uh, I would pay costs uh in order to harm you.

00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:37.560
There's a genre of YouTube videos where people key the Lamborghinis of other people out of

00:32:37.560 --> 00:32:37.960
envy.

00:32:38.040 --> 00:32:39.560
And envy is a spiteful emotion.

00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:43.800
Some people are paying the cost, the risk of going to jail in order to impose costs on the

00:32:43.800 --> 00:32:44.520
enemy or the rival.

00:32:44.760 --> 00:32:46.440
So that would be a case of negative value.

00:32:46.600 --> 00:32:51.720
So like I'd yeah, I'd be willing to I'd be willing to make a sacrifice to hurt you when we

00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:52.920
both wind up worse off.

00:32:53.080 --> 00:32:56.840
But because you're more worse off than me, I'm gonna do it because that's how much I hate

00:32:56.840 --> 00:32:57.000
you.

00:32:57.080 --> 00:32:59.890
So that that would correspond to something like hatred or envy or something like that.

00:33:00.210 --> 00:33:00.930
Yeah, exactly.

00:33:01.170 --> 00:33:01.490
Okay.

00:33:01.650 --> 00:33:06.930
Uh so I uh go to go back to shame, I screw the it's it's a two person game.

00:33:07.090 --> 00:33:09.650
The minimal game is kind of a two person game.

00:33:09.810 --> 00:33:15.570
So i i in the sh in the in the tiny story it's a maybe it's a one person game,

00:33:15.650 --> 00:33:21.010
you're solitary in the island, you didn't live up to your ego ideals or something like

00:33:21.010 --> 00:33:21.250
that.

00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:22.180
You feel shame.

00:33:22.260 --> 00:33:26.980
You say bad daddy, bad Daniel, and you feel shame because you're you are the judge, you are

00:33:26.980 --> 00:33:28.340
the judge of yourself.

00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:34.740
Uh, but but here in this story, it's a two-person game where uh Daniel screws up uh somehow

00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:37.380
in tennis or in cooking or in whatever.

00:33:37.620 --> 00:33:41.300
Uh David David learns about this information.

00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:47.220
They used you guys used to value my welfare at 50% as highly as your own

00:33:47.220 --> 00:33:47.700
welfare.

00:33:47.860 --> 00:33:53.750
That is to say that in this toy model, you were willing to spend a maximum of five bucks

00:33:53.750 --> 00:33:59.590
in order to benefit me by 10 bucks, or that you required um only

00:33:59.910 --> 00:34:05.670
five bucks when you're imposing uh um uh you're

00:34:05.670 --> 00:34:10.150
requiring a minimum of five bucks in order to impose a cost of ten bucks to me in the

00:34:10.150 --> 00:34:11.590
reciprocal taking.

00:34:11.740 --> 00:34:13.660
Um, but you're valuing me at 50%.

00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:18.940
But if you additionally learn new information, regulatory information, that my I suck, my

00:34:18.940 --> 00:34:24.540
suckiness is higher, then you correspondingly downgrade that and that translates into

00:34:24.860 --> 00:34:27.260
less favorable terms of the relationship.

00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:33.420
Now for me, and that means I get fewer good stuff from you and I you guys take more actions

00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:35.100
that would benefit you but cost me.

00:34:35.260 --> 00:34:39.590
And so that's a bad thing for me because I'm getting fewer chocolate bars from you and I'm

00:34:39.590 --> 00:34:43.430
getting more patches in the face from you, uh, less supporting conflicts, etc.

00:34:43.670 --> 00:34:48.710
And the and that's not a good state of affairs for a creature that needs uh cost and

00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:54.710
benefits to allied the cost and and and uh collect benefits

00:34:54.710 --> 00:34:55.750
from the environment.

00:34:55.910 --> 00:35:01.590
And uh we we can imagine that in response to this recurrent problem, uh

00:35:01.750 --> 00:35:07.220
there may have been selection for something whose function is to minimize the capturing of

00:35:07.220 --> 00:35:08.500
those bad costs.

00:35:08.660 --> 00:35:08.900
Right.

00:35:09.060 --> 00:35:11.860
And so perhaps shame is that machine.

00:35:12.100 --> 00:35:12.180
Yeah.

00:35:12.260 --> 00:35:13.780
So if I can just sort of be, yeah.

00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:19.860
So we've got so the in the old model, it was that sort of like for some reason, we're just

00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:25.140
conscious of ourselves, we're self-judging, and it's it's sort of

00:35:25.140 --> 00:35:29.540
maladaptive and sort of, you know, especially shame is useless, right?

00:35:29.700 --> 00:35:34.390
Because it's just sort of like you're just trying hard on yourself, and we just want to get

00:35:34.390 --> 00:35:35.030
rid of that.

00:35:35.270 --> 00:35:40.630
This idea is that the reason why we have a representation of

00:35:40.630 --> 00:35:46.630
ourself is because that software allows us to

00:35:46.950 --> 00:35:52.950
prevent or address social costs when

00:35:52.950 --> 00:35:58.140
other people either have found out or might find out about

00:35:58.380 --> 00:36:01.580
something that would cause them to devalue me.

00:36:01.740 --> 00:36:07.340
So it's either preventative or reparative for this for a very

00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:12.860
specific class of situations, social situations where other people are going

00:36:13.180 --> 00:36:15.100
to value me less.

00:36:15.350 --> 00:36:16.070
Is that right?

00:36:16.310 --> 00:36:16.630
Yes.

00:36:16.870 --> 00:36:17.110
Yeah.

00:36:17.270 --> 00:36:22.070
And so one question then is, and maybe we can start talking about the data a little bit

00:36:22.070 --> 00:36:22.310
too.

00:36:22.470 --> 00:36:24.470
And David, I'll let you go in a second too.

00:36:24.550 --> 00:36:24.870
Sorry.

00:36:25.030 --> 00:36:30.790
Um is uh I imagine one of the reasons why people don't think

00:36:31.110 --> 00:36:36.550
it's social is because of this sort of preventative aspect, right?

00:36:36.710 --> 00:36:41.830
There's sort of like a almost proximate ultimate idea where sort of like if I'm alone in a

00:36:41.830 --> 00:36:47.600
room, I might um, and if I like, let's say, let's say I kill somebody in a

00:36:47.600 --> 00:36:48.400
room, right?

00:36:48.560 --> 00:36:54.560
Um, and I don't think anybody's gonna find out, but I still might feel guilt or shame

00:36:54.560 --> 00:36:55.120
about that.

00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:59.360
And I think there's sort of this toy idea, or like, let's say it's like I steal a candy bar

00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:01.200
from a store, let's just make it less crazy, right?

00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.880
And like I have good reason to think that nobody's gonna find out.

00:37:05.040 --> 00:37:08.880
There might be individual differences, and maybe some people don't feel any, but maybe some

00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.000
people would feel guilt and shame.

00:37:10.080 --> 00:37:15.770
And I think maybe that residual feeling, even when it feels like there's no

00:37:15.770 --> 00:37:21.690
social consequence per se, might be part of the intuition that it's

00:37:21.690 --> 00:37:22.730
not social at all.

00:37:23.130 --> 00:37:23.450
Could be.

00:37:23.930 --> 00:37:24.570
Is that true?

00:37:24.730 --> 00:37:29.770
And then for people who haven't kind of understood the idea of sort of like cost benefit or

00:37:29.770 --> 00:37:31.930
like signal detection or error management.

00:37:32.090 --> 00:37:33.610
So number one, is that fair?

00:37:33.770 --> 00:37:39.520
And then number two, um, uh is my summary right that this

00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:45.200
the the idea is that these are preventative or reparative emotions for other people

00:37:45.600 --> 00:37:50.960
um uh devaluing you yeah uh yes

00:37:52.240 --> 00:37:58.240
uh or no uh yeah no yes i agree yes uh yeah i i think the

00:37:58.240 --> 00:38:04.160
lingering residual feeling of the self it could be one reason why uh there's this

00:38:04.160 --> 00:38:09.610
theory of the self Uh, there's an analogy with other adaptations, social adaptation with

00:38:09.610 --> 00:38:11.770
that adaptations that we believe are social, right?

00:38:12.090 --> 00:38:14.010
That can also be used in solo mode.

00:38:14.090 --> 00:38:19.370
And so Chomsky says that language is for articulating ideas, uh, a little bit of

00:38:19.370 --> 00:38:25.210
self-theory of language, and other people think that language is a complex machine for the

00:38:25.580 --> 00:38:27.820
sake of interacting with other people.

00:38:27.980 --> 00:38:29.820
So there's a little bit of an analogy there.

00:38:30.060 --> 00:38:34.940
Other emotions, social, we believe social emotions can also be deployed in solo mode.

00:38:35.500 --> 00:38:39.260
So imagination, planning, etc., are important components of these things.

00:38:39.580 --> 00:38:44.300
My suspicion, although I haven't done any study on this, is that the folk theory of shame

00:38:44.300 --> 00:38:50.030
is if I ask my mom or my aunt or someone like that, I imagine that normal people might

00:38:50.110 --> 00:38:52.350
uh have the social theory of shame.

00:38:52.510 --> 00:38:55.550
Uh hey mom, why would you why do people feel shame?

00:38:55.710 --> 00:38:59.790
Well duh, when you screw up, uh you don't want people to catch you.

00:39:00.190 --> 00:39:00.430
Sure.

00:39:00.830 --> 00:39:03.950
Of course yeah, of course you destroy incriminating evidence.

00:39:04.030 --> 00:39:05.390
Like what kind of question is that?

00:39:05.550 --> 00:39:05.870
Sure.

00:39:05.950 --> 00:39:06.830
So they don't catch you.

00:39:07.070 --> 00:39:07.630
Duh.

00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:13.680
Uh so I think my my my vague suspicion is that normal people think this um

00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:18.880
have the social theory, and maybe you have to go to college maybe to learn the self-theory

00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:20.800
of shame, maybe more fun.

00:39:24.560 --> 00:39:25.200
Yeah.

00:39:25.600 --> 00:39:31.600
Um and so uh early size on shame that I've done so so it's a

00:39:31.600 --> 00:39:36.240
little bit like recapitulating the self-esteem theory of self-esteem.

00:39:36.550 --> 00:39:42.470
Uh in self-esteem, people found a correlation between self-esteem, how

00:39:42.470 --> 00:39:47.750
I feel about myself, and all sorts of good outcomes, you know, hap happy people, richer

00:39:47.750 --> 00:39:53.270
people with more attractive mates and happy kids and beautiful large cars in

00:39:53.270 --> 00:39:53.830
California.

00:39:56.790 --> 00:39:57.030
Exactly.

00:39:57.430 --> 00:39:58.710
All of our problems will be solved.

00:39:58.790 --> 00:39:58.950
Yeah.

00:40:01.240 --> 00:40:06.760
it's a it's a story worth of uh Tom Wolf, the great American sat satirist

00:40:07.240 --> 00:40:09.480
uh and commentarist.

00:40:10.040 --> 00:40:14.120
Um there's a guy by the name of Joe Vasconcellus or something like that.

00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:18.360
Th they they saw correlations between good sel high self esteem and all sorts of good

00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:23.240
outcomes, and they ran to say, Okay, we need a task force and we need to invest millions of

00:40:23.240 --> 00:40:25.310
dollars in uh interventions.

00:40:25.470 --> 00:40:29.630
They run to the interventions, the college interventions, school interventions, and they

00:40:29.630 --> 00:40:33.710
spend God knows how much money in order to boost self-esteem.

00:40:33.950 --> 00:40:39.870
So I go to UCSB when I was a grad student, and I'm riding my bike to on the way to

00:40:39.870 --> 00:40:41.630
some department or somewhere.

00:40:41.870 --> 00:40:47.870
I see an art uh student holding uh a mirror with a

00:40:47.870 --> 00:40:52.620
with a banner on top of the mirror, and the the thing says, I'm you're beautiful or I'm

00:40:52.620 --> 00:40:57.340
beautiful, meaning it it's a s self-esteem boosting intervention.

00:40:57.500 --> 00:41:01.020
And if we do that, then everyone is happy and winning.

00:41:01.340 --> 00:41:05.660
And I'm I'm thinking to myself, what the what what what crap is this?

00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:06.540
I'm ugly.

00:41:06.700 --> 00:41:07.820
I you're not gonna fool me.

00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:09.820
I'm ugly, I'm not beautiful.

00:41:10.220 --> 00:41:11.020
What is this?

00:41:11.260 --> 00:41:12.460
What is this garbage?

00:41:12.700 --> 00:41:18.460
Okay, so all of these things, participation trophies, and this uh decade

00:41:18.700 --> 00:41:23.970
multi-decadile uh intervention on self-esteem has the

00:41:24.290 --> 00:41:29.890
origins in this um uh iffy weak

00:41:30.210 --> 00:41:36.210
thinking that there's a self, there's a correlation, let's uh let's uh let's push the

00:41:36.210 --> 00:41:40.930
correlation and so yeah it's kind of amazing how much how much bad psychology has just

00:41:40.930 --> 00:41:42.720
infiltrated Western culture.

00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:46.880
I mean, this idea that that we do things to to increase our self-esteem or to feel good

00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:49.600
about ourselves and we need to make everyone feel good about themselves.

00:41:49.680 --> 00:41:52.480
Like that is a really huge part of Western culture.

00:41:52.560 --> 00:41:57.200
And it's kind of amazing how much that idea is just pervasive in the way we talk and engage

00:41:57.200 --> 00:41:57.760
with each other.

00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:58.160
Yeah.

00:41:58.320 --> 00:41:58.480
Yeah.

00:41:58.560 --> 00:42:00.640
It's like there's a lot of like advertising too.

00:42:00.720 --> 00:42:02.240
It's just this sort of like throw yeah.

00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:05.840
And I just like to we had Ed Aikan on and he had this really good point that it's sort of

00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:08.000
the uh the medical analog with pain is really clear.

00:42:08.080 --> 00:42:12.150
And Daniel, you alluded to that earlier where you would sort of laugh if somebody said,

00:42:12.310 --> 00:42:16.470
well, you know, like we've done these studies, and like if a bone is broken or their lung

00:42:16.470 --> 00:42:21.190
is punctured, or you know, they're bleeding, uh, you know, their skull is fractured,

00:42:21.270 --> 00:42:22.230
they're in pain.

00:42:22.470 --> 00:42:28.150
And so the way to make uh people's bodies better is to get rid of pain.

00:42:28.390 --> 00:42:28.630
Right.

00:42:28.790 --> 00:42:32.150
Like if you just gave them drugs so they wouldn't feel the pain, like that would be a joke,

00:42:32.310 --> 00:42:32.470
right?

00:42:32.550 --> 00:42:35.910
Of course what you do is you fix the problem and the pain, but you don't just give them the

00:42:35.910 --> 00:42:39.670
painkiller and then just send them back out in the world with a broken bone or punctured

00:42:39.670 --> 00:42:41.900
lung or, you know, a cracked skull.

00:42:42.060 --> 00:42:47.420
And I think that exactly the, the, the self-esteem, if Daniel, what you're saying is that

00:42:47.420 --> 00:42:51.580
the reason why self-esteem was tracking these things is because these were good things,

00:42:51.660 --> 00:42:56.780
like people who are healthy, people who have support, who have resources, uh, who are doing

00:42:56.780 --> 00:43:02.460
okay in life, it makes sense that their psychology has this setting of like things are

00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:07.250
pretty good, but that's not the causal element, just in the same way.

00:43:07.330 --> 00:43:09.970
And that's not like the point of leverage of changing it.

00:43:10.130 --> 00:43:14.770
Um, it's in the same way that like you wouldn't just change the pain level without

00:43:14.770 --> 00:43:16.370
addressing like the broken bone.

00:43:16.690 --> 00:43:17.090
Totally.

00:43:17.250 --> 00:43:17.570
Yep.

00:43:17.810 --> 00:43:18.450
Yep.

00:43:19.090 --> 00:43:23.650
Um so I have early studies showing.

00:43:24.040 --> 00:43:29.560
so it's an amazing uh Geiger counter like thing the brain in

00:43:29.560 --> 00:43:35.560
registering in different uh formats or domains all the time the the goods and

00:43:35.560 --> 00:43:40.760
bads that are impacting your yourself or your uh um

00:43:41.080 --> 00:43:42.840
extended genotype.

00:43:43.640 --> 00:43:49.530
Um so the festivist, this thing where you you you error the grievances is a

00:43:49.530 --> 00:43:53.210
real thing that your brain is constantly like, these are the costs that are currently being

00:43:53.210 --> 00:43:56.490
imposed on me, these are all the good things, whether we're conscious of it or not, it's

00:43:56.490 --> 00:43:58.330
sort of always cranking.

00:43:58.730 --> 00:43:59.210
Yes.

00:43:59.370 --> 00:44:02.410
Um sorry, I lost the train of thought, but sorry, Jane.

00:44:02.650 --> 00:44:06.330
Uh more registering all the time and um

00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:14.360
And uh so early, so the sh the shame that you feel in yourself very

00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:20.120
closely tracks uh so you I've done studies where people

00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:25.320
are put into one of two perspectives, the perspective of the person who screws up, or the

00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:28.920
perspective of an observer of someone else who screws up.

00:44:29.080 --> 00:44:35.000
And for each of 20 or 30 bad things like sexual infidelity and theft and bad

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:36.120
table manners, etc.

00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:39.930
etc., I ask half of the people how much shame would you feel if this was true of you?

00:44:40.170 --> 00:44:43.770
The other half of the people imagine this is true of someone else, how negatively would you

00:44:43.770 --> 00:44:44.090
view them?

00:44:44.250 --> 00:44:46.250
A rough measure of devaluation.

00:44:46.490 --> 00:44:52.330
And what I find is that the feeling of shame that people report in anticipation, it's not

00:44:52.410 --> 00:44:58.250
uh shame can like many other emotions, shame can activate in retroactive

00:44:58.250 --> 00:45:04.040
mode if they if they have seen you stealing and now they frown at you and they tell you

00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:09.560
you suck, uh they avoid you, they want to punch you, uh you feel shame, but also you feel

00:45:09.560 --> 00:45:11.080
shame in anticipation.

00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:17.400
Um and uh the idea here is that for behavior guidance, uh you

00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:21.320
need a number of uh anticipated payoffs of the actions.

00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.040
Uh, one is the personal payoff derived from an action.

00:45:24.120 --> 00:45:29.530
Uh stealing is good, Uh stealing is a good thing because if I steal from you I get stuff

00:45:29.690 --> 00:45:31.450
and and that's good for me.

00:45:31.770 --> 00:45:32.970
Quote Daniel Schnitzer.

00:45:36.570 --> 00:45:39.210
We'll put that on a T shirt and interview team.

00:45:41.610 --> 00:45:46.570
Stealing is bad because if you catch me then I go to jail or you punch me.

00:45:46.890 --> 00:45:47.130
Right.

00:45:47.610 --> 00:45:53.600
And so um and so okay, the other thing I wanted to say

00:45:53.600 --> 00:45:59.040
is cost and benefits are perhaps the most fundamental variables in all models of the

00:45:59.040 --> 00:46:00.320
evolution of anything.

00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:06.320
Uh, RB greater than C in kin selection, in friendship uh evolution, in parental

00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:10.240
investment, in the evolution of war, in the evolution of anything, cost and benefits are

00:46:10.240 --> 00:46:11.920
the fundamental variables.

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:17.920
So this is about uh how organisms evolve to estimate these Cs and

00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:20.240
B's, and parts of these things are social.

00:46:20.770 --> 00:46:26.530
And so the feelings, these fluffy feelings, the genius idea that Tubi and Lida had, these

00:46:26.530 --> 00:46:31.970
fluffy feelings in the social domain or emotions are not

00:46:32.290 --> 00:46:33.330
pure fluff.

00:46:33.490 --> 00:46:37.090
They convey important information, fitness-relevant information.

00:46:37.330 --> 00:46:43.250
And so in these studies that I ran a number of years ago, I find that the you you ask

00:46:43.250 --> 00:46:45.570
people to focus on their own shame, their own personal shame.

00:46:45.650 --> 00:46:49.960
Don't think about anything, don't think about other people, just focus on your own most

00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:52.200
innermost uh feelings.

00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:57.720
And those most innermost feelings spookily track very strongly uh

00:46:58.200 --> 00:47:03.880
the negativity with which other people evaluate you if you take actions X,

00:47:04.040 --> 00:47:07.560
Y, or Z, uh very much in Goldilocks fashion.

00:47:07.720 --> 00:47:09.240
And what one element of value.

00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:14.430
So I started doing so shame, then pride, and other emotions, then value of food, then value

00:47:14.430 --> 00:47:15.870
of body parts and other things.

00:47:15.950 --> 00:47:20.030
And now I'm working more on abstract elements of value computation.

00:47:20.510 --> 00:47:25.390
The thing is that so Goldilocks is one element of value computation.

00:47:25.550 --> 00:47:30.670
You can imagine value needs to be computed just right or accurately, a different way to put

00:47:30.670 --> 00:47:30.910
it.

00:47:31.390 --> 00:47:37.320
If you overcompute the value of a watermelon, you are over investing in how much

00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:40.840
you would be willing to trek in order to acquire that watermelon so that puts you in the

00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:41.160
red.

00:47:41.240 --> 00:47:46.280
Uh it would be weird if I like protected a watermelon like I did my son and like threw the

00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:49.880
watermelon out to like and be like was run over by a semi truck or something.

00:47:50.120 --> 00:47:51.400
You'd be like, that was dumb.

00:47:51.560 --> 00:47:52.280
Why did he do that?

00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:52.440
Yeah.

00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:53.080
Exactly.

00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:56.530
It's very important to get the values right evolutionarily.

00:47:56.610 --> 00:47:59.330
If you get the values wrong, your your genes are toast.

00:47:59.810 --> 00:48:01.570
Yes, there's there's two types of mistake.

00:48:01.650 --> 00:48:03.810
And so Goldilocks, uh just right.

00:48:04.050 --> 00:48:09.330
Uh, in the story of Goldilocks, the big the hot too hot bowl is not good, you burn

00:48:09.330 --> 00:48:11.890
yourself, too cold is your uh etc.

00:48:12.130 --> 00:48:15.810
not cooking the food, and there's a just right, and there's a just right for everything,

00:48:15.970 --> 00:48:21.620
uh, including for uh so for behavior guidance, so you're

00:48:21.620 --> 00:48:24.020
integrating two streams of value.

00:48:24.180 --> 00:48:30.020
One is the personal payoff of getting the piece of cake or having the sex

00:48:30.020 --> 00:48:34.820
act with that person or staying lazy in bed instead of selling, etc.

00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:37.140
And the other one is the social payoff.

00:48:37.300 --> 00:48:43.110
And in order for adaptive behavior guidance, you need a lawful, smart

00:48:43.350 --> 00:48:45.670
fitness promoting integration of these values.

00:48:45.830 --> 00:48:51.510
And so the idea is that the anticipatory feeling of shame that you have with respect on an

00:48:51.510 --> 00:48:56.950
act by act basis, for stealing, for becoming lazy, etc., may

00:48:57.190 --> 00:49:02.710
perhaps it might convey information about the actual consequences in the brains of others

00:49:02.710 --> 00:49:04.150
if they find out about these things.

00:49:04.310 --> 00:49:09.600
And the answer is that yes, the amount of shame, the intensity of shame that people report

00:49:09.600 --> 00:49:12.320
for each of these acts very closely tracks.

00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:18.400
It moves up or down in lockstep with the actual displeasure that other people report

00:49:18.560 --> 00:49:21.200
if it was someone else taking that action.

00:49:21.600 --> 00:49:26.800
And moreover, these things happen in many different places, in big societies

00:49:27.600 --> 00:49:32.410
societies, in small-scale societies, very remote from each other, some of them

00:49:32.410 --> 00:49:35.290
off-the-grid, uh hunter, gatherer, foragers.

00:49:35.690 --> 00:49:39.530
Um, yeah.

00:49:41.210 --> 00:49:46.650
One other uh iteration is millennia ago, so we went to a cousin of the

00:49:46.650 --> 00:49:51.930
Hammurabi laws uh four thousand roughly four thousand years ago in modern day Iraq in

00:49:51.930 --> 00:49:57.620
ancient Mesopotamia, and uh the we have beautifully

00:49:57.620 --> 00:50:03.460
preserved incredible, it's almost a miracle that we have these incredible

00:50:03.460 --> 00:50:08.020
laws in the in the if then threat conditional format.

00:50:08.340 --> 00:50:14.020
If you um rape your slave, you need to pay uh

00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:16.660
X number of shekels of silver.

00:50:17.610 --> 00:50:23.050
If you kill a man, even though he hasn't done anything, you have to pay 66 shekels of

00:50:23.050 --> 00:50:23.530
silver.

00:50:23.770 --> 00:50:29.770
If your ox has sharp horns and the agent of the state told you to file their horns

00:50:29.850 --> 00:50:33.530
and you haven't, then the next day they run a mock, they kill someone, you need to pay 30

00:50:33.530 --> 00:50:34.490
shekels of silver.

00:50:34.570 --> 00:50:39.530
So those are in full fossil-like forms, those are

00:50:41.700 --> 00:50:47.700
Those are artifacts containing an ancient lawmakers evaluation and the

00:50:47.700 --> 00:50:52.100
shame that people express for each of all of these acts, ancient acts from remote

00:50:52.100 --> 00:50:57.860
societies, culturally extremely foreign societies, they track A

00:50:58.420 --> 00:51:03.990
the evaluations of other people and B massively cross-culturally,

00:51:04.310 --> 00:51:09.830
harmonically across many cultures, the shame in 15 small-scale

00:51:09.830 --> 00:51:15.430
societies track the devaluation expressed by people in each of these

00:51:15.430 --> 00:51:19.190
15 small-scale societies, but also the devaluation expressed by people in each of the other

00:51:19.190 --> 00:51:20.790
14 small-scale societies.

00:51:20.950 --> 00:51:26.150
So the shame expressed by the Schwar of the Equatorial Amazon

00:51:27.080 --> 00:51:32.600
for each of these uh 12 different acts tracks massively highly the

00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:38.360
interpersonal devaluation that people in the Mongolian step uh report for each of these 12

00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:38.760
acts.

00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:44.920
So there's a very strong um universality in how people evaluate

00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:48.040
other people and how people feel shame about these things.

00:51:48.120 --> 00:51:53.400
And again, shame is not a fluffy feely, it is, but it also conveys information that might

00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:55.240
be useful in guiding your behavior.

00:51:55.570 --> 00:52:00.690
One one question, Daniel, is then are there aspects in which it doesn't vary or where it

00:52:00.690 --> 00:52:05.010
does var vary across so like I mean that's an interesting test of the hypothesis, right?

00:52:05.090 --> 00:52:10.210
So for just for example, like if we just have this arbitrary rule that like if I touch a

00:52:10.210 --> 00:52:14.850
gum tree, um, we think spirits will come into me for whatever reason.

00:52:15.010 --> 00:52:20.770
And so in in our local island, touching a gum tree will be devalued.

00:52:20.930 --> 00:52:21.170
Yes.

00:52:21.330 --> 00:52:22.770
Um but nowhere else.

00:52:22.930 --> 00:52:26.320
So in our island, I should feel shame when I do it.

00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:27.840
People should devalue me.

00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:31.520
And that's important for m uh this particular place, but not ever other places.

00:52:31.600 --> 00:52:32.480
Are there things like that?

00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:33.760
Yes, absolutely.

00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:39.920
Uh so um don't quote me on this, but I my eyes glaze on

00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:43.440
water in tears when I hear about cultural variation.

00:52:43.680 --> 00:52:44.000
I don't care.

00:52:44.160 --> 00:52:44.560
I don't care.

00:52:44.720 --> 00:52:46.480
The short of it is I don't care.

00:52:47.040 --> 00:52:52.830
Uh there's so much rich architecture that uh I want

00:52:52.830 --> 00:52:54.190
to look at that first.

00:52:54.590 --> 00:52:55.070
Sure, yeah.

00:52:55.550 --> 00:52:57.150
Like the hard thing is the main question.

00:52:57.470 --> 00:52:58.670
But variation is very important.

00:52:58.990 --> 00:53:04.110
But I think the key to understand variation is to understand the architecture because you

00:53:04.270 --> 00:53:06.030
have the lever to understand everything.

00:53:06.350 --> 00:53:11.470
And so, exactly like you're saying, if the shame machine is designed to minimize, to

00:53:11.470 --> 00:53:16.340
accentuate the positives and minimize the negatives, it stands to reason that it should

00:53:16.340 --> 00:53:19.700
track exactly like a good Geiger counter.

00:53:19.860 --> 00:53:20.100
Yeah.

00:53:20.180 --> 00:53:22.900
Uh these not everything is gonna be universal.

00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:26.660
There are gonna be arbitrary conventions because coordination exactly.

00:53:26.740 --> 00:53:28.740
Um and so that's that is yeah exactly.

00:53:28.980 --> 00:53:34.580
And shame does it so there's a there is there's there so value computation is

00:53:34.580 --> 00:53:35.140
generic.

00:53:35.300 --> 00:53:40.050
Uh as Thomas Sowell might say it is generic and it's also specific.

00:53:40.130 --> 00:53:43.650
Uh there's a massive layer of genericness in value computation.

00:53:43.810 --> 00:53:48.770
Uh humans make a living similarly, uh far and wide, past and present.

00:53:48.930 --> 00:53:54.450
And so that predicts that there will be strong regularities in how people impute um

00:53:54.770 --> 00:53:57.090
values in and in and okay.

00:53:57.490 --> 00:54:01.490
Yeah, so walking around with poop on your shoes is sort of universally devalued unless

00:54:01.490 --> 00:54:03.570
you're an infant, as Paul Boone points out.

00:54:03.650 --> 00:54:03.890
But yeah.

00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:04.920
Yes, yes.

00:54:05.080 --> 00:54:10.040
And then there's uh local games and people track those local regularities too.

00:54:10.120 --> 00:54:15.720
So eating with your left hand is polluting in India, and in our data, people devalue more

00:54:15.720 --> 00:54:20.120
in India those who eat with their left hand more than in America, and correspondingly in

00:54:20.120 --> 00:54:25.000
India people feel more shame if they eat with their left uh polluted hand in India more

00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:25.560
than in America.

00:54:25.640 --> 00:54:30.040
So there are these patterns of similarities and differences, and the different I think I

00:54:30.040 --> 00:54:33.560
think value value is, you know, you have one hammer and everything is a nail.

00:54:33.750 --> 00:54:39.510
My hammer is value, and value is a huge um lock to the

00:54:39.510 --> 00:54:42.470
mystery of many things in these systems.

00:54:43.030 --> 00:54:46.710
And so much of my work has been on value.

00:54:46.950 --> 00:54:52.710
So the um so I started expanding to many different things: uh,

00:54:52.950 --> 00:54:56.790
shame, pride, and pride is pride is the cousin of shame.

00:54:56.950 --> 00:55:00.040
So, same thing with many different cultures.

00:55:00.200 --> 00:55:05.640
The pride is the emotion of advertising your greatness so that other people uh

00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:09.000
value you more highly and demanding that increase in valuation.

00:55:09.080 --> 00:55:14.360
It's not not just doing the I'm great, but also um making sure that other people

00:55:14.680 --> 00:55:15.960
increase how much they value you.

00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:18.600
So it's like uh it's like because we talked about anger.

00:55:18.680 --> 00:55:24.650
So the idea is that pride it's not just sort of incidental window dressing of hey, a good

00:55:24.650 --> 00:55:25.530
thing happened to me.

00:55:25.610 --> 00:55:31.290
It's actually doing in it's changing sort of settings and sort of uh what should I

00:55:31.290 --> 00:55:36.170
ask for from the world, the physical world, social world, and I'm entitled to more now.

00:55:36.410 --> 00:55:36.570
Yes.

00:55:36.730 --> 00:55:39.130
That there's sort of common knowledge, or maybe to the degree.

00:55:39.290 --> 00:55:40.810
I mean, maybe we can start talking about some of the outputs.

00:55:41.050 --> 00:55:45.290
Yes, common knowledge is interesting in pride because uh this creates common knowledge, uh,

00:55:45.450 --> 00:55:46.170
we believe.

00:55:46.410 --> 00:55:51.900
Uh and uh yeah, exactly like you're saying, uh, the terms for the interaction should be

00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:54.700
more favorable to me if I really achieve something great.

00:55:54.860 --> 00:55:55.740
Uh right.

00:55:55.980 --> 00:56:01.580
I mean that that sort of runs counter to uh uh a popular cultural idea that we do

00:56:01.580 --> 00:56:06.860
things to increase our self-esteem or to feel good about ourselves, regardless of how what

00:56:06.860 --> 00:56:07.660
other people think of us.

00:56:07.820 --> 00:56:09.740
We might even say, I don't care what other people think.

00:56:09.980 --> 00:56:14.140
I want to write this book for me so that I can feel good about myself, that I did a good

00:56:14.140 --> 00:56:14.300
thing.

00:56:14.460 --> 00:56:18.450
I don't care what other people think about me writing the book, or I'm gonna I'm gonna get

00:56:18.530 --> 00:56:23.090
I'm gonna uh get this PhD because it's it's for me, it's personally fulfilling, or I'm

00:56:23.090 --> 00:56:25.970
gonna do this charity work for me, it's per it's uh you know, I don't care what other

00:56:25.970 --> 00:56:27.250
people think of it, right?

00:56:27.730 --> 00:56:30.450
Um what your data shows is that that's wrong.

00:56:30.930 --> 00:56:34.770
In some part of the mind, you are judging what other people are going to think of you for

00:56:34.770 --> 00:56:39.330
doing this thing, and you are going to be more motivated to do the things that other people

00:56:39.490 --> 00:56:45.040
uh judge you positively for doing right that there is a very tight relationship between

00:56:45.040 --> 00:56:50.720
what I feel pride uh proud of and what I anticipate feeling proud of and and the status I

00:56:50.720 --> 00:56:55.920
get from other people uh for for doing that thing and and you would not expect that

00:56:55.920 --> 00:57:00.800
relationship to exist if pride was just about me uh and not about how other people see me

00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:06.960
right yeah that that this is since uh as the expert bull sh bullshitologist these are

00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:12.670
um the trope that I'm doing it for myself and I don't care what other people say, that

00:57:12.670 --> 00:57:17.710
seems like bullshit, and that seems like bullshit relevant to these social games.

00:57:18.110 --> 00:57:18.270
Yeah.

00:57:18.670 --> 00:57:18.830
Yeah.

00:57:18.990 --> 00:57:23.470
Can I can I just uh can I say that there's a version of that that is exactly bullshit, but

00:57:23.470 --> 00:57:24.430
there's another one that isn't?

00:57:24.590 --> 00:57:25.870
Can I push on this a little bit?

00:57:26.030 --> 00:57:26.110
Yeah.

00:57:26.270 --> 00:57:30.030
Which is that I think when people are saying that, I think it's a smart evolved system

00:57:30.110 --> 00:57:34.350
that's sort of saying it's almost like it's sort of finding a status game where it's sort

00:57:34.350 --> 00:57:39.540
of like, I want to do this thing, like write a book, but I'm worried about people uh

00:57:39.700 --> 00:57:41.300
laughing at me and making fun of me.

00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:45.860
And I think the expression of like I'm gonna do it for myself and not care about what

00:57:45.860 --> 00:57:50.740
people think is the output of planning and motivational systems that are basically saying,

00:57:50.900 --> 00:57:56.900
I think I'm still gonna get status or some benefit to doing this, but I need to recalibrate

00:57:57.140 --> 00:58:01.870
which audience I calibrate my self-conscious emotions to.

00:58:02.110 --> 00:58:07.950
So in other words, like um, you know, I'm gonna actually I'm going to do

00:58:07.950 --> 00:58:12.590
well in school and I'm not gonna worry about what the bullies think about me.

00:58:12.990 --> 00:58:17.710
Um and so I'm gonna do it for myself is the expression of I'm gonna play this status game,

00:58:17.790 --> 00:58:23.740
but I'm in currently getting like the outputs of worrying about audiences that I don't

00:58:23.740 --> 00:58:25.820
think are in my long term interest.

00:58:26.060 --> 00:58:29.420
So I do think like there is a smart version of this, but I don't think, you know, the

00:58:29.420 --> 00:58:30.780
simple version I think is probably wrong.

00:58:31.100 --> 00:58:33.340
Yeah, that that that that's that's that's a nice I like that idea.

00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:33.660
Yeah.

00:58:33.740 --> 00:58:33.980
Yeah.

00:58:34.140 --> 00:58:34.300
Yeah.

00:58:34.540 --> 00:58:39.020
Yeah, that the that shame should be calibrated to not just audiences in general, but the

00:58:39.020 --> 00:58:44.770
specific audiences that uh matter most to you and that you're trying to um trying to

00:58:44.770 --> 00:58:48.050
impress or the specific status game that you're invested in.

00:58:48.370 --> 00:58:48.450
Yeah.

00:58:48.530 --> 00:58:52.690
And I think a lot of like the narrative of like, I don't care, I'm not going to care about

00:58:52.690 --> 00:58:53.330
what people think.

00:58:53.410 --> 00:58:58.290
And that's the beginning of people sort of like actualizing what they want of themselves.

00:58:58.450 --> 00:59:01.250
I think it's the expression of it's a hard problem, right?

00:59:01.330 --> 00:59:05.970
Of sort of like the current status game I'm in is not the one I want to be in.

00:59:06.370 --> 00:59:11.570
So in order to sort of like move out of it, I actually have to sort of like not take what

00:59:11.570 --> 00:59:16.300
the current group is doing and evaluating as seriously.

00:59:16.380 --> 00:59:21.980
And I need to like consider another status group or just pause it temporarily, even.

00:59:22.140 --> 00:59:26.620
So like if I want to be a scientist and I'm and I think I'm going to be good at it, but I'm

00:59:26.620 --> 00:59:32.380
around a bunch of people who are like making fun of being intelligent, that's a really bad

00:59:32.380 --> 00:59:32.940
situation.

00:59:33.020 --> 00:59:38.220
And there should be design to sort of detect that that I could do well, but if I follow the

00:59:38.220 --> 00:59:44.090
local social norms of this value community, then I'm I'm I'm sort of in trouble.

00:59:44.170 --> 00:59:49.610
And you gotta square that peg by either be like, well, I'm not gonna do science or bye

00:59:49.610 --> 00:59:51.050
guys, I'm gonna go do science.

00:59:51.130 --> 00:59:51.930
Wait, one or the other.

00:59:52.250 --> 00:59:53.770
Yeah, that's a great yeah.

00:59:54.010 --> 00:59:55.530
That's a great uh point I think.

00:59:55.690 --> 01:00:00.650
There there's a number of uh so to to introduce chaos in this conversation, I wanted to say

01:00:00.650 --> 01:00:02.570
something before and then return to this.

01:00:03.050 --> 01:00:08.820
Uh the the something before is that everything is value, and this shame

01:00:09.140 --> 01:00:15.140
contain there's a conceptual structure in value, just like there is, I think,

01:00:15.300 --> 01:00:17.220
conceptual structure in concepts.

01:00:17.700 --> 01:00:23.540
And this there's uh things that are like syntax-like, like embeddedness and

01:00:23.540 --> 01:00:25.380
hierarchical structure.

01:00:25.620 --> 01:00:31.570
So um, So, for example, uh,

01:00:31.810 --> 01:00:37.810
if I steal uh in the Heinz dilemma, if I'm I steal medication that

01:00:37.810 --> 01:00:43.010
I cannot afford because I have some infection, in the grammar of infection, the worse the

01:00:43.010 --> 01:00:47.330
infection is, the worse it is for me, the more the more shame I feel because other people

01:00:47.330 --> 01:00:48.610
are gonna avoid me more.

01:00:48.850 --> 01:00:54.340
But on the other hand, the medication in the in the the stealing medication for curing the

01:00:54.340 --> 01:01:00.100
disease there's disease embedded in the concept of stealing and uh so stealing

01:01:00.100 --> 01:01:05.780
rules the the rules and uh but in the

01:01:05.780 --> 01:01:10.740
grammar of welfare trade-offs if i if i steal a medication because i had a bigger infection

01:01:10.900 --> 01:01:16.180
then the benefit of that medication is greater for me so that should lead to less shame

01:01:16.820 --> 01:01:22.330
so there's uh There's complex structure in value,

01:01:22.730 --> 01:01:27.130
and so you can concatenate elements of different value systems.

01:01:27.210 --> 01:01:32.970
Uh so I did a study in which uh, you know, the same study over and over and over, shame and

01:01:32.970 --> 01:01:38.810
value, same same logic, but I uh concatenated with the food value of things, and so people

01:01:38.810 --> 01:01:44.720
impute different values to different food items, and the yummy yummy subjective value that

01:01:44.720 --> 01:01:49.120
people think they would experience if they eat one watermelon, one strip of bacon, one

01:01:49.120 --> 01:01:50.800
almond, one onion, etc.

01:01:51.120 --> 01:01:57.120
It tracks the new the protein, the carb, the fat, and the water content of these foods,

01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:57.760
number one.

01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:03.920
So that's interesting because um you have some F FDA, uh not

01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:04.800
FDA, whatever.

01:02:04.970 --> 01:02:08.890
Uh we're getting the values right or we're we're the our estimators are pretty good.

01:02:09.050 --> 01:02:10.570
Yes as evidence of design here.

01:02:10.730 --> 01:02:10.810
Yeah.

01:02:11.130 --> 01:02:11.930
That's number one.

01:02:12.090 --> 01:02:17.690
Yes, it reaches out into the world and it uh accurately cla grasp the nutrient control of

01:02:17.690 --> 01:02:18.410
the food, this food.

01:02:18.650 --> 01:02:23.770
But then in addition, you can once you have this value of the food, you can transport

01:02:23.930 --> 01:02:27.290
internally to many different systems that operate on the b basis of value.

01:02:27.450 --> 01:02:33.060
So the shame that I feel ex from you carries in it uh a s uh uh

01:02:33.140 --> 01:02:37.140
a trace of the protein content of the food that I steal from you.

01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:37.620
Right.

01:02:37.780 --> 01:02:40.580
If I stole a carrot versus a hamburger, it would be different.

01:02:40.660 --> 01:02:40.900
Yeah.

01:02:41.220 --> 01:02:41.460
Yes.

01:02:41.540 --> 01:02:43.060
So so that's that's a footnote.

01:02:43.220 --> 01:02:49.140
And to return to the Dave comment of the changing the audience, I think there we've

01:02:49.140 --> 01:02:54.340
run studies with landers uh more experimentally and falsificationistly

01:02:55.620 --> 01:02:57.780
eron.

01:02:58.750 --> 01:03:00.510
Popper would be very happy with you.

01:03:02.750 --> 01:03:08.190
Pitting the adaptation is interpersonal against the attributional theory of shame.

01:03:08.350 --> 01:03:13.470
And we've recently shown in the United States and in India that variables relevant to shame

01:03:13.470 --> 01:03:19.470
and guilt interpersonally they very much predict how much shame

01:03:19.470 --> 01:03:21.230
and how much guilt people report.

01:03:21.520 --> 01:03:27.520
uh, but variables relevant to how I interpret or attribute these events, they do close

01:03:27.520 --> 01:03:31.360
to nothing, uh, they do worse than nothing.

01:03:31.680 --> 01:03:37.440
And okay, so we have evidence in falsificationist uh mode that

01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:43.280
the evidence strongly supports this interpersonal view, uh, almost don't

01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:48.770
support at all the Oh wait wait no I th I thought I thought uh

01:03:48.850 --> 01:03:52.770
evolutionary psychology hypotheses were just so stories and they were un unfalsifiable.

01:03:52.850 --> 01:03:55.250
I don't understand how how how this could be happening.

01:03:55.570 --> 01:03:59.090
You're you're you're telling me not only that they're testable, but that they they uh are m

01:03:59.250 --> 01:04:03.650
uh do a better job of accounting for the data than other psychological theories.

01:04:03.810 --> 01:04:06.130
That's sometimes sometimes I don't know.

01:04:06.210 --> 01:04:11.760
Uh one study at least uh For for his part,

01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:12.320
Daniel.

01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:13.120
Yeah.

01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:16.400
Yeah, they can be useful, yes, I think.

01:04:16.560 --> 01:04:16.800
Yeah.

01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:18.240
Funding is needed.

01:04:18.640 --> 01:04:19.920
More fun and go always, yes.

01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:21.920
Uh so there's useful if they give us funding.

01:04:22.160 --> 01:04:26.560
So the idea is so they're smart, like these emotions that are sort of had been seen as

01:04:26.560 --> 01:04:27.120
useful, useless.

01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:31.920
The emotions are useful to navigate social interactions, and like you're saying, Dave, um,

01:04:32.160 --> 01:04:37.840
then the question is what can we use this interpersonal theory to interpret

01:04:38.170 --> 01:04:42.970
um we should we should still pay attention to the effects found in the attributional

01:04:42.970 --> 01:04:44.330
intrapersonal theory.

01:04:44.490 --> 01:04:50.330
And I think there's a number of uh explanations that uh can be generated from the

01:04:50.330 --> 01:04:56.090
interpersonal theory to make sense of findings that seem purely intrapersonal,

01:04:56.170 --> 01:05:00.490
like the one that you um like when you're stealing a candy bar and nobody's around.

01:05:00.570 --> 01:05:01.210
Yeah or something.

01:05:01.290 --> 01:05:01.450
Yeah.

01:05:01.780 --> 01:05:02.180
Yes.

01:05:02.260 --> 01:05:05.060
Uh so I think a number of interesting things.

01:05:05.220 --> 01:05:10.580
One, for example, is something pointed out by David Gilbert, uh Paul Gilbert, a brilliant

01:05:10.580 --> 01:05:16.420
British uh shamologist, truly brilliant guy, uh, highly inspiring

01:05:16.420 --> 01:05:20.100
guy, and and he says he's a clinician too, but more interpersonal.

01:05:20.180 --> 01:05:25.940
And he says, uh, there's a feeling of inferiority, and um what is it exactly?

01:05:26.350 --> 01:05:28.270
Yeah, feeling of inferiority and shame.

01:05:28.430 --> 01:05:30.190
Okay, so so this is a big theme in attributional.

01:05:30.350 --> 01:05:32.910
If I feel shame, I feel like crap, I feel inferior, etc.

01:05:33.470 --> 01:05:39.310
And Gilbert says that women in abusive relationships, they

01:05:39.390 --> 01:05:44.030
blame and blaming the self is a big uh attributional shame effect.

01:05:44.270 --> 01:05:49.740
And he says that women in abusive relationships blame themselves, like in attributional

01:05:49.740 --> 01:05:53.020
theory, but when they exit the relationship, they blame the other guy.

01:05:53.180 --> 01:05:59.100
So blaming the self could be in the inter So uh standard textbook uh

01:05:59.260 --> 01:06:01.260
intrapersonal attributional effect.

01:06:01.420 --> 01:06:07.180
It could very very much be in the service incidental to or tributary to or

01:06:07.180 --> 01:06:13.030
functional to interpersonal functions, namely deterring attacks, Uh if you're bullying

01:06:13.030 --> 01:06:14.070
me, I b sure.

01:06:14.150 --> 01:06:17.030
Sorry, yeah, it would my it was my fault that I didn't do the thing, right?

01:06:17.350 --> 01:06:17.910
Uh my fault.

01:06:18.310 --> 01:06:20.390
So it's sort of a it's e it's even really smart.

01:06:20.470 --> 01:06:23.670
It's not that it's dumb, it's that it's sort of self protective.

01:06:23.750 --> 01:06:26.630
It's it's the b making the best of a worse situ a bad situation.

01:06:26.710 --> 01:06:29.510
It's sort of like what can I do to minimize being a target?

01:06:29.750 --> 01:06:34.950
I'm not gonna do things that like demand better treatment because that's just gonna recoil,

01:06:35.030 --> 01:06:35.270
right?

01:06:35.430 --> 01:06:37.750
I mean, presumably that's sort of calibrated, so interesting.

01:06:37.830 --> 01:06:38.470
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:06:39.940 --> 01:06:41.620
So we shouldn't try to get rid of shame.

01:06:41.780 --> 01:06:43.300
Shame isn't isn't bad.

01:06:43.780 --> 01:06:46.420
It's not a bad emotion that we we need to make go away.

01:06:46.580 --> 01:06:50.420
We need to invest millions of taxpayer dollars into making people feel less shame and make

01:06:50.420 --> 01:06:51.380
people feel good about themselves.

01:06:51.620 --> 01:06:53.700
Shame is actually doing useful things for us.

01:06:53.860 --> 01:06:55.460
It exists in our head for a reason.

01:06:55.540 --> 01:06:58.420
It was selected by natural selection for a reason.

01:06:58.500 --> 01:07:03.670
It's analogous to physical pain, just as we wouldn't want to eliminate people's ability to

01:07:03.670 --> 01:07:07.830
feel physical pain, we wouldn't want to eliminate people's ability to feel social pain.

01:07:07.990 --> 01:07:12.630
It is sending them important signals about how they are viewed by others in their social

01:07:12.630 --> 01:07:13.350
environment.

01:07:13.590 --> 01:07:16.710
It has a function, it's useful, let's not get rid of it.

01:07:17.110 --> 01:07:17.510
Yes.

01:07:17.670 --> 01:07:23.590
And if there's any if a clinician wants to know what then what intervention you suggest to

01:07:23.590 --> 01:07:28.630
eliminate the bad feeling of shame, the the straightforward answer would be: well, make

01:07:28.630 --> 01:07:34.160
yourself great again, namely uh become richer, more

01:07:34.160 --> 01:07:39.200
attractive, have better health, and then your shame will be r

01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:41.040
aswaged or reduced.

01:07:41.200 --> 01:07:42.640
And how you do that I have no idea.

01:07:42.720 --> 01:07:45.760
But maybe a magic wand or something.

01:07:46.080 --> 01:07:49.600
Yeah, it's not so much I need to change the feeling in your head and and lower that

01:07:49.600 --> 01:07:54.400
feeling, it's what can I do to your situation in the world such that your feelings will

01:07:54.470 --> 01:07:57.990
correctly represent the world and represent it as being better for you.

01:07:58.150 --> 01:08:02.790
So, how can I change how other people value in your environment to make you a more valuable

01:08:03.110 --> 01:08:03.910
social partner?

01:08:04.390 --> 01:08:04.550
Right.

01:08:04.710 --> 01:08:05.750
And yeah, and this is a good thing.

01:08:05.910 --> 01:08:08.070
Find people who value you, appreciating what you can.

01:08:08.310 --> 01:08:08.390
Yeah.

01:08:08.550 --> 01:08:08.630
Okay.

01:08:08.710 --> 01:08:14.710
So yeah, find people who value you, or if you're feeling shame, um, I mean, this gets to

01:08:14.710 --> 01:08:15.590
like what the outputs are.

01:08:15.670 --> 01:08:18.700
Like we talked a little bit, we've we talked about sort of what the eliciting conditions

01:08:18.700 --> 01:08:18.780
are.

01:08:18.940 --> 01:08:21.180
In anger, we talked about sort of what the outputs are.

01:08:21.340 --> 01:08:24.860
And this also gets to like clarifying functionally what it's for.

01:08:25.020 --> 01:08:29.820
We can talk about guilt in a second, but for shame, what does it so the idea of shame is

01:08:29.820 --> 01:08:35.500
it's minimizing the costs that others might represent about me

01:08:35.740 --> 01:08:41.100
by is it is it then there's a grammar of sort of like preventing

01:08:41.100 --> 01:08:43.660
knowledge from from this happening?

01:08:43.820 --> 01:08:45.500
Is that roughly what it is?

01:08:45.740 --> 01:08:45.980
Yeah.

01:08:46.370 --> 01:08:51.570
Part of it is uh limiting the broadcast or the leakage of negative information.

01:08:52.130 --> 01:08:52.290
Okay.

01:08:52.370 --> 01:08:54.530
So for example, it might be like introversion.

01:08:54.610 --> 01:08:59.410
So like if I have a teacher and there's a student who I think is really smart, but they're

01:08:59.410 --> 01:09:03.010
just completely introverted, like Erin Lukashewski's idea of like there's cost to

01:09:03.010 --> 01:09:04.050
extroversion, right?

01:09:04.130 --> 01:09:09.810
Like if I think, you know, I'm at home, my parents are abusive, let's say, and I'm a kid,

01:09:09.890 --> 01:09:11.410
and I'm calibrated to that world.

01:09:11.490 --> 01:09:16.160
I go into a classroom and the teacher calls on me, and I could be brilliant, but I'm like

01:09:16.160 --> 01:09:20.720
super introverted because in my head, the the world is just out to get me.

01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:25.040
If I say anything, I'm just gonna get literally smacked or figuratively smacked.

01:09:25.200 --> 01:09:30.640
And so that that might be like quote unquote a maladaptive sense of shame, but it's in this

01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:35.040
sense, it's sort of like it makes sense why that evolved psychology would have that setting

01:09:35.040 --> 01:09:36.240
in that situation.

01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:41.170
And that's for minimizing it's calibrated to minimize the cost of the home environment, but

01:09:41.170 --> 01:09:45.730
it might not be it might not be correct objectively or ideal in that school environment,

01:09:45.810 --> 01:09:46.210
for example.

01:09:46.450 --> 01:09:47.250
Yeah, that's a great point.

01:09:47.410 --> 01:09:47.650
Yeah.

01:09:47.890 --> 01:09:53.570
Uh ideally the shame the system works frictionlessly and doesn't hallucinate,

01:09:53.890 --> 01:09:54.050
right?

01:09:54.370 --> 01:09:57.570
Carry over effects, but yeah, there could be things like that.

01:09:57.810 --> 01:09:58.050
Right.

01:09:58.130 --> 01:09:58.290
Yeah.

01:09:58.610 --> 01:10:03.090
I mean I suspect like I suspect a lot of like the clinical stuff is the is actually evolved

01:10:03.090 --> 01:10:06.440
systems for detecting when it doesn't work, right?

01:10:06.680 --> 01:10:11.400
Like I think it's probably it works really well, but it's this minority of times when it

01:10:11.400 --> 01:10:13.800
doesn't, that's when it becomes part of our folks psychology.

01:10:14.360 --> 01:10:14.680
Yeah, yeah.

01:10:14.760 --> 01:10:19.960
That yeah, I I can hear uh I did some therapy in Argentina because that's what

01:10:19.960 --> 01:10:21.000
Argentinians do.

01:10:21.160 --> 01:10:26.830
Uh like New Yorkers on the Argentinas are famous for uh going to a shrink and

01:10:27.230 --> 01:10:32.990
uh and uh I I can hear I can hear a therapist say, uh, but your girlfriend

01:10:32.990 --> 01:10:34.190
isn't your father.

01:10:34.430 --> 01:10:36.750
Uh we understand that, Daniel, right?

01:10:36.990 --> 01:10:37.390
Right.

01:10:37.630 --> 01:10:38.510
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:38.670 --> 01:10:38.990
Yeah, yeah.

01:10:39.150 --> 01:10:42.270
That's like the home model, the model of sort of yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:10:42.510 --> 01:10:48.110
And then and then there's another interesting case, which is uh kind of a dark side of

01:10:48.110 --> 01:10:48.590
shame.

01:10:48.750 --> 01:10:53.940
Uh I'm replying to something you alluded to and I'm forgetting what, but uh okay, something

01:10:53.940 --> 01:10:59.540
like as long as you don't do as long as other okay,

01:10:59.780 --> 01:11:05.700
so we have a study with uh Tess Robertson, and uh you can feel

01:11:05.700 --> 01:11:06.180
shame.

01:11:06.420 --> 01:11:08.900
There's a side of shame that is dark.

01:11:09.060 --> 01:11:14.740
Uh, there's a guy who has a paper uh titled uh The Tortured

01:11:14.980 --> 01:11:16.900
Feel Shame or something like that.

01:11:17.460 --> 01:11:23.410
Um you can you can be made to feel shame if we

01:11:23.410 --> 01:11:29.250
are if we are bullies and we maliciously are out to get you,

01:11:29.490 --> 01:11:31.490
like you're a Jew and we are Nazis.

01:11:31.650 --> 01:11:32.130
Right.

01:11:32.290 --> 01:11:38.050
And we have the power to humiliate you or kill you, and we just like

01:11:38.290 --> 01:11:40.930
to humiliate you because it's fun.

01:11:41.330 --> 01:11:46.930
Um then people feel shame even though they haven't done anything wrong and they know that

01:11:46.930 --> 01:11:48.210
they haven't done anything wrong.

01:11:48.450 --> 01:11:54.140
But people in this kind of um malicious dynamic uh interpersonal or

01:11:54.540 --> 01:11:56.860
intergroup, they can be made to feel shame.

01:11:57.020 --> 01:12:02.780
And uh we have an experiment in which in a public good game contributions, um there's some

01:12:02.780 --> 01:12:07.740
set of people who contributed everything, their private uh tokens to the public good.

01:12:07.820 --> 01:12:12.390
So they know in their heart of hearts that they are good people, uh altruistic, whatever,

01:12:12.710 --> 01:12:17.270
but they get feedback experimentally manipulated to the extent that no one wants to work

01:12:17.270 --> 01:12:21.590
with them because they're cheaters and they're bad people, and people feel shame.

01:12:21.750 --> 01:12:23.910
So that's uh another story.

01:12:23.990 --> 01:12:24.790
But yeah, right.

01:12:25.430 --> 01:12:26.630
In general, there's a niche.

01:12:27.110 --> 01:12:31.590
Yeah, and that's a really good prediction, right, of the idea that it isn't really it cares

01:12:31.590 --> 01:12:35.030
about the social world and what you can do about the social world.

01:12:35.110 --> 01:12:40.480
So you know you did the right thing, you know you're a Jew in Germany, you didn't do

01:12:40.480 --> 01:12:41.040
anything wrong.

01:12:41.200 --> 01:12:45.680
This is unfair, but it's the reality you're living in, and you got to deal with that.

01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:46.560
Yeah, totally.

01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:52.480
The the Geiger counter uh system of evaluating uh these

01:12:52.480 --> 01:12:58.080
positively charged particles or value is highly tuned to the social reality, not to the

01:12:58.080 --> 01:13:03.890
cosmic uh objective reality, and and if other people are humiliating you or

01:13:04.050 --> 01:13:08.930
uh out to get you dispossessing you uh

01:13:09.490 --> 01:13:14.690
starving you sending you to the gulag etc the shame system ha

01:13:14.930 --> 01:13:20.850
activates because you're having the social problem whether or not you in the eyes of

01:13:20.850 --> 01:13:26.400
god or the lord almighty have done things wrong or right Right.

01:13:27.120 --> 01:13:32.320
The system is highly tuned to the very narrow set of inputs of the social evaluation

01:13:32.320 --> 01:13:32.640
system.

01:13:33.120 --> 01:13:33.280
Right.

01:13:33.360 --> 01:13:38.880
And it would be very bad design if it was attuned to cosmic moral rightness or or something

01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:39.440
like that.

01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:43.440
You know, so if I don't feel shame for being a Jew in Nazi Germany because I did nothing

01:13:43.440 --> 01:13:45.360
wrong, well, uh bad things are going to happen to me.

01:13:45.520 --> 01:13:48.000
That's going to be very bad for my well-being.

01:13:48.160 --> 01:13:52.930
Um if I'm a gay person in a homophobic community and I feel no shame about that, bad things

01:13:52.930 --> 01:13:53.650
are gonna happen to me.

01:13:53.730 --> 01:13:58.450
So shame is actually doing things to protect me in the real environment that I actually

01:13:58.450 --> 01:14:04.370
inhabit, not um independent of whether what I'm doing is wrong in some cosmic sense.

01:14:04.690 --> 01:14:04.850
Right.

01:14:05.250 --> 01:14:05.410
Yeah.

01:14:05.490 --> 01:14:07.250
And Daniel, how smart is the shame system?

01:14:07.330 --> 01:14:10.050
So, like in that example, I just follow up, but that's a great example, Daniel.

01:14:10.130 --> 01:14:16.130
Like let's say uh somebody, so I'm gay and I feel shame, you know, because the local

01:14:16.130 --> 01:14:20.930
social environment, but then there's like one particular place I always go where I'm safe,

01:14:21.090 --> 01:14:25.400
you know, in the first couple times I go, I still feel sort of shame, but then I sort of

01:14:25.400 --> 01:14:25.880
warm up.

01:14:26.040 --> 01:14:30.520
Is there is there sort of like smartness to, you know, and I think we've all experienced

01:14:30.520 --> 01:14:30.680
this.

01:14:30.760 --> 01:14:34.600
Like some places we feel like status threatened and feel introverted and don't feel like

01:14:34.600 --> 01:14:35.320
expressing ourselves.

01:14:35.480 --> 01:14:36.360
Other places we do.

01:14:36.600 --> 01:14:37.640
Do you have research on that?

01:14:37.720 --> 01:14:38.360
Have you thought about that?

01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:42.760
Like, is it is it can it be very context specific once it learns that it's true?

01:14:42.920 --> 01:14:43.240
Yeah.

01:14:43.560 --> 01:14:45.320
Yeah, we haven't published data.

01:14:45.480 --> 01:14:48.250
Uh maybe 20 years from now we'll publish this.

01:14:48.490 --> 01:14:53.930
But uh, we have a number of experiments with that, and Shame is highly sensitive to

01:14:54.090 --> 01:14:54.970
audience.

01:14:55.130 --> 01:14:59.370
Uh, it's like the uh Lukashevsky kind to whom

01:15:01.050 --> 01:15:01.610
effect.

01:15:01.770 --> 01:15:04.410
Uh we care about people, you know.

01:15:04.490 --> 01:15:10.180
Uh Mary, uh there's a meme that Mary is good or nice, but what I

01:15:10.180 --> 01:15:12.580
care in Mary is is she good to me?

01:15:12.740 --> 01:15:16.100
And I don't care too much if she's good to you or etc.

01:15:16.660 --> 01:15:19.140
So highly, highly self-referential.

01:15:19.300 --> 01:15:25.300
And there's uh yeah, these evaluative systems are very highly self-referential to the

01:15:25.300 --> 01:15:25.780
self.

01:15:25.940 --> 01:15:30.530
Yeah, what I care about is uh val evaluative affordances to me.

01:15:31.170 --> 01:15:37.090
Someone is good to the Pope or to the whatever yeah, I I care but insofar as the indirect

01:15:37.250 --> 01:15:39.250
effects imp impinge upon me.

01:15:39.410 --> 01:15:45.170
But uh so yeah, Darwin says that a girl who is highly shy in the in the world

01:15:45.170 --> 01:15:51.010
scene is extremely not shy in the eyes of those whose affection she's assured of,

01:15:51.170 --> 01:15:52.050
like her mother.

01:15:52.210 --> 01:15:52.450
Right.

01:15:52.610 --> 01:15:58.240
Uh uh Darwin says that uh so we have d st studies with supporting that idea.

01:15:58.560 --> 01:15:58.720
Right.

01:15:58.800 --> 01:15:59.360
That's really interesting.

01:15:59.440 --> 01:16:04.400
I mean it suggests that like the trope of people feeling like they find their community or

01:16:04.400 --> 01:16:06.240
like feeling like they need to be validated.

01:16:06.320 --> 01:16:10.240
It kind of sounds hokey, it sounds fluffy, but it suggests that it's actually the

01:16:10.240 --> 01:16:13.120
expression of the system that that really has some teeth.

01:16:13.200 --> 01:16:13.360
Yeah.

01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:13.840
Yeah.

01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:14.080
Yeah.

01:16:14.160 --> 01:16:14.320
Yeah.

01:16:14.400 --> 01:16:14.640
Yeah.

01:16:14.720 --> 01:16:19.550
That's uh Mark uh Bangladesh paradox um that's very uh right yeah.

01:16:19.870 --> 01:16:24.830
Can I can I share my my favorite uh example of the other oriented nature of shame from from

01:16:24.830 --> 01:16:26.670
culture that I I recently encountered.

01:16:26.750 --> 01:16:29.230
I found a fan so do you guys uh have you seen Total Recall?

01:16:29.310 --> 01:16:33.390
The the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie where he goes on Mars and there are like mutants on on

01:16:33.390 --> 01:16:33.710
Mars.

01:16:33.950 --> 01:16:38.750
So there's uh you know uh a relatively well known scene where he goes into this bar or this

01:16:38.830 --> 01:16:41.860
like I think it's like uh maybe it's a strip club, I forget.

01:16:41.940 --> 01:16:45.460
Uh and there's this mutant and she has three breasts and there's this guy and he's like, oh

01:16:45.540 --> 01:16:47.300
baby, you made me wish I had three hands.

01:16:47.460 --> 01:16:47.780
Right.

01:16:48.100 --> 01:16:53.460
Um so what's interesting is that when they were filming this, the actress who played the

01:16:53.460 --> 01:16:58.820
three breasted woman who got like three prosthetic breasts put on her, she felt so

01:16:58.820 --> 01:17:04.510
humiliated and shameful for having to be the three-breasted woman, and she like

01:17:04.590 --> 01:17:06.830
burst into tears and they had to stop filming.

01:17:06.990 --> 01:17:12.910
Um and uh to me, this is a really interesting example of how you know she she did

01:17:13.310 --> 01:17:14.510
obviously she did nothing wrong.

01:17:14.590 --> 01:17:16.750
She's an actress playing a part in a movie.

01:17:16.830 --> 01:17:18.830
She doesn't actually have three breasts, right?

01:17:19.070 --> 01:17:24.430
But the the mere thought that others might think of her or look upon her with disgust was

01:17:24.430 --> 01:17:26.280
what activated the shame.

01:17:26.520 --> 01:17:31.560
And so to me, that's a really beautiful example of how shame is laser focused on other

01:17:31.560 --> 01:17:33.560
people's judgments or potential judgments.

01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:37.880
And sometimes even a hyper-vigilant way where you're overestimating how much people are

01:17:37.880 --> 01:17:40.200
going to be disgusted with you or view you negatively.

01:17:40.440 --> 01:17:45.080
And that is the trigger of the shame, uh, more than doing anything, you know, cosmically

01:17:45.080 --> 01:17:47.320
wrong, as you put it, uh sneezer.

01:17:48.170 --> 01:17:48.490
Yeah.

01:17:48.810 --> 01:17:49.450
It's really interesting.

01:17:49.530 --> 01:17:53.130
I mean, it really does suggest again, like I think the folk psychology really focuses on

01:17:53.130 --> 01:17:57.450
when it doesn't go right, where it's sort of like you have like these wonderful people, you

01:17:57.450 --> 01:18:01.130
know, like I'm thinking, like, you know, as a parent, like I think many parents have this

01:18:01.130 --> 01:18:05.530
experience of like their kid is doing something that is uh has some attribute that either

01:18:05.530 --> 01:18:09.610
isn't as bad as they think it is, but they think it's really bad, you know, because like

01:18:09.690 --> 01:18:12.810
well, let's say they stutter, you know, and it's like it's fine, it's not you'll get over

01:18:12.810 --> 01:18:16.170
it, or even if you don't, it's fine, you know, or like or if they're gay, right?

01:18:16.250 --> 01:18:17.370
Or just whatever.

01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:22.640
Um the people that you care about, you see them sometimes sort of worry about an audience

01:18:22.640 --> 01:18:23.680
that they need to worry about.

01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:28.240
And it's sort of a conflict of of sort of like, well, no, you're good, you're intrinsically

01:18:28.240 --> 01:18:32.240
fine, I value you, but I'm aware there's another audience that you're worried about.

01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:36.480
And that and that difference or where it's a discrepancy, that's sort of like I think

01:18:36.480 --> 01:18:38.560
there's like a lot of folk attention to that.

01:18:38.720 --> 01:18:39.200
Yeah.

01:18:40.320 --> 01:18:45.760
There's um old sociology 1902 um

01:18:46.670 --> 01:18:52.110
now eight twentieth century's ancient history, but there's a guy by the name of

01:18:52.110 --> 01:18:58.030
Cooley, I think George or something Cooley, uh, the mirror image self or

01:18:58.030 --> 01:18:58.910
something like that.

01:18:59.150 --> 01:19:02.350
Uh phenomenology or something like that.

01:19:03.070 --> 01:19:08.740
And he has extremely brilliant insights on shame and pride and these self

01:19:08.900 --> 01:19:14.900
emotions and he says something like this uh it's like an

01:19:14.900 --> 01:19:20.900
electrocardiogram of continuous registering uh of

01:19:20.900 --> 01:19:26.900
the tone of this if other evaluative uh input in the form of shame

01:19:26.900 --> 01:19:32.810
and pride even even if it's not, you know, uh peak as in you win the Olympics, but there's

01:19:32.810 --> 01:19:36.730
a continuous I I I see it's an a date I see that in myself.

01:19:36.890 --> 01:19:42.890
Um I'm highly other oriented and some some people are more they don't care too much or they

01:19:42.890 --> 01:19:43.930
seem to not care too much.

01:19:44.090 --> 01:19:49.640
But I c I can see it's like a continuous uh input um

01:19:49.960 --> 01:19:55.320
for the good or for the bad even even tiny if even even at the very low it's highly precise

01:19:55.400 --> 01:20:01.160
so we have uh another study um the same logic of shaman evaluation and with

01:20:01.320 --> 01:20:06.360
a Canadian student and we grab so uh

01:20:06.680 --> 01:20:12.350
Gilfang uh Michelle she has for her norm title lose

01:20:12.350 --> 01:20:17.790
culture, she created stimuli that are in the form of three categorical set

01:20:18.110 --> 01:20:24.110
of things that are, you know, highly nonviolating, intermediate nonviolating, and

01:20:24.110 --> 01:20:25.150
low non-violating.

01:20:25.230 --> 01:20:30.990
So she they constructed 20 situations that are like completely kosher, 20

01:20:31.150 --> 01:20:34.670
that are intermediate, and 20 that are like, you know, you steal and you kill.

01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:35.120
Okay.

01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:37.920
So so now so we looked at those.

01:20:38.000 --> 01:20:43.600
So pushing the system, how how far the system can go, what's the resolution and the

01:20:43.600 --> 01:20:48.000
precision, and we don't we don't have the minimal detectable, the just noticeable

01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:48.480
difference.

01:20:48.640 --> 01:20:54.480
And we don't have good calibration with the you know uh atomic resonance uh what

01:20:54.480 --> 01:21:00.240
is a second we don't have that objective standard to know what's the minimal unit.

01:21:00.720 --> 01:21:06.490
But but there is shame there's pretty strong shame tracking of

01:21:06.490 --> 01:21:12.170
devaluation even for actions like you're sitting on your couch reading a

01:21:12.170 --> 01:21:16.890
book versus you are riding the bus

01:21:17.690 --> 01:21:22.090
versus you are at the store buying food.

01:21:24.340 --> 01:21:24.900
Okay, yeah.

01:21:25.060 --> 01:21:28.100
So it's it's it's exactly that the coolie notion.

01:21:28.260 --> 01:21:33.780
So you're gonna feel there's an extraordinarily sensitive machine for

01:21:33.780 --> 01:21:39.700
registering on a second by second basis this evaluative

01:21:39.700 --> 01:21:40.580
input of other people.

01:21:40.660 --> 01:21:41.620
It's it's amazing.

01:21:41.940 --> 01:21:42.020
Right.

01:21:42.260 --> 01:21:47.540
So I'm gonna feel more proud sitting on a couch reading a book than I am writing a book.

01:21:48.500 --> 01:21:51.300
Yes, because I'm I'm learning something, so that makes me more valuable partners.

01:21:51.620 --> 01:21:52.900
I made up the book thing.

01:21:53.070 --> 01:21:58.430
I I made up the book thing, but the there's you you could I could go back and and maybe

01:21:58.430 --> 01:22:04.190
remove the things that are kind of uh more obvious m more but there's really

01:22:04.190 --> 01:22:10.190
nothing you know uh it's not uh forget about the

01:22:10.190 --> 01:22:10.350
book.

01:22:10.430 --> 01:22:15.790
Uh yeah, but it's it's there's something or you're sitting on the TV like watching uh TV,

01:22:15.870 --> 01:22:16.110
you know.

01:22:16.190 --> 01:22:20.480
Like imagine just imagine your boss, we walk in and like you're either reading like a a

01:22:20.480 --> 01:22:24.960
sophisticated book or like watching like really like you know dumb and reality TV.

01:22:25.200 --> 01:22:25.520
Yeah, exactly.

01:22:28.880 --> 01:22:33.280
People do people do feel shame about watching reality TV or guilty pleasure.

01:22:33.600 --> 01:22:34.400
Guilty pleasure, as they say.

01:22:34.480 --> 01:22:34.800
Yeah, yeah.

01:22:34.880 --> 01:22:40.000
So what I don't I don't I don't because I never watch reality TV, but but people tell me

01:22:40.000 --> 01:22:41.120
that they feel shame, yeah.

01:22:41.870 --> 01:22:42.430
Sure, sure.

01:22:42.750 --> 01:22:45.790
And I want to get I want I want to get into some stumpers like that.

01:22:45.870 --> 01:22:46.830
So, what's going on?

01:22:46.990 --> 01:22:50.110
Why do people feel shame for watching reality TV?

01:22:50.190 --> 01:22:54.750
What is it about watching reality TV that makes you a worse social partner?

01:22:55.070 --> 01:22:58.750
And to clarify, this is not a question about what makes reality TV bad.

01:22:59.310 --> 01:23:00.110
Correct, correct.

01:23:00.510 --> 01:23:00.990
It may be bad.

01:23:04.030 --> 01:23:08.240
Yeah, so so why why do people feel shame about you know watching trashy stuff?

01:23:08.400 --> 01:23:09.440
It's weird.

01:23:10.080 --> 01:23:12.880
Uh it's slow brow coded.

01:23:13.200 --> 01:23:17.280
And I d I I I well, uh I don't think everyone gets shame.

01:23:17.360 --> 01:23:21.280
Uh maybe intellectual types, but normal people may like it.

01:23:21.600 --> 01:23:23.920
So it would depend on the specific audience.

01:23:24.490 --> 01:23:29.770
So so more more highly educated uh intellectuals might feel shame.

01:23:30.010 --> 01:23:34.010
Is do you think it's it's because of the intellectual opportunity cost that like I could be

01:23:34.010 --> 01:23:39.450
watching a documentary or like a great black and white French film and instead I'm watching

01:23:39.450 --> 01:23:40.330
uh reality TV?

01:23:40.490 --> 01:23:42.810
Is you think that might might be part of it?

01:23:43.450 --> 01:23:43.930
Yeah.

01:23:44.250 --> 01:23:50.200
Or or to to go full theory, it's if the intellectuals say that if you're an

01:23:50.200 --> 01:23:55.480
intellectual and it's common knowledge in the intellectual community that that's a lowbrow,

01:23:55.640 --> 01:23:58.920
low status uh thing, then you feel shame.

01:23:59.160 --> 01:24:05.080
If the intellectuals agree that it's uh risque and and

01:24:05.160 --> 01:24:10.990
and cool to to say no to your duties, you know, yeah uh

01:24:11.070 --> 01:24:16.270
every now and then in blue sky or these places they say it's it's cool to say no to your

01:24:16.270 --> 01:24:16.590
boss.

01:24:16.670 --> 01:24:18.670
I'm not 24 hours available.

01:24:18.830 --> 01:24:24.670
I also have a life let's fight for the let's fight for 25 then if it's cool

01:24:24.830 --> 01:24:30.430
then maybe it's good to watch lowbrow sure but that just raises the question of why

01:24:30.430 --> 01:24:34.910
watching lowbrow stuff would would be uncool or low status or low or or lowbrow.

01:24:34.990 --> 01:24:40.640
Like what what what grounds that so there you have uh two experts here too

01:24:40.880 --> 01:24:46.800
for what are coalitional values on and how is that a group

01:24:46.800 --> 01:24:51.520
membership badge that we we watch the intellectual stuff as a as a group and if you don't

01:24:51.520 --> 01:24:53.840
watch intellectual stuff then you're not a member of our group.

01:24:53.920 --> 01:24:59.760
Is that that might that be not mixing meat and uh milk and or

01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:05.630
marrying or not marrying your parallel cousin And

01:25:05.630 --> 01:25:10.030
it's so it's analogous to like a food taboo or like a d uh pattern of dress or something

01:25:10.030 --> 01:25:12.670
it's just a way of mark demarcating rival groups.

01:25:12.910 --> 01:25:16.990
Maybe I mean I also think like I mean I also think like there's it's comp there's lots of

01:25:16.990 --> 01:25:17.390
things, right?

01:25:17.550 --> 01:25:20.510
Because the other thing, David, so like for example, like let's say you're watching reality

01:25:20.510 --> 01:25:20.910
TV.

01:25:21.070 --> 01:25:21.230
Yeah.

01:25:21.390 --> 01:25:25.150
If we're both academics and I don't know you that well, you don't feel like I'm gonna give

01:25:25.150 --> 01:25:29.550
you the benefit of the doubt, and y I come in and I see you watching lowbrow TV, you might

01:25:29.550 --> 01:25:35.440
be worried that like, you know, I you know, or let me let me try to, it's also

01:25:35.600 --> 01:25:37.120
hard to do common knowledge explicitly.

01:25:37.280 --> 01:25:37.600
Okay.

01:25:38.240 --> 01:25:42.320
You I you have a representation of how smart I think you are, right?

01:25:42.480 --> 01:25:46.960
And if I don't know you that well, so you might be like, okay, Dave thinks I'm like, you

01:25:46.960 --> 01:25:48.640
know, a nine or a 10th smart.

01:25:48.720 --> 01:25:53.120
And I really am, but I just like this stuff and I like I do have psych of like reality TV.

01:25:53.280 --> 01:25:54.480
But he doesn't know me that well.

01:25:54.560 --> 01:25:56.160
He's not gonna give me the benefit of the doubt.

01:25:56.320 --> 01:26:01.310
So I'm worried when he sees me that he's gonna make an inference of like the only people I

01:26:01.310 --> 01:26:04.990
know who watch this stuff are usually not doing it to like, you know, find out about human

01:26:04.990 --> 01:26:05.790
nature of psych.

01:26:06.270 --> 01:26:10.750
So like the fact that he's enjoying this probably means he's like actually a four or five

01:26:10.830 --> 01:26:11.710
intelligence-wise.

01:26:11.790 --> 01:26:13.390
And you're you're worried about that.

01:26:13.710 --> 01:26:14.590
That's one example.

01:26:14.670 --> 01:26:15.950
There's probably a lot of examples.

01:26:16.030 --> 01:26:20.740
But then, like, if we have a better relationship where you trust me, and I'm not gonna view

01:26:20.740 --> 01:26:23.060
this as like I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt.

01:26:23.140 --> 01:26:25.140
Right, I'm gonna come in and be like, oh, David's watching this.

01:26:25.220 --> 01:26:29.220
Well, I know David's smart, like, or I know have enough information that like if he's

01:26:29.220 --> 01:26:35.060
watching this, it's not gonna affect my inference about you and like all these the

01:26:35.060 --> 01:26:38.900
things that are valuable, like your work ethic, how smart you are, how funny you are.

01:26:39.060 --> 01:26:40.420
Uh it's not gonna hurt that.

01:26:40.580 --> 01:26:43.060
And if you have an accurate model of that, then you won't.

01:26:43.140 --> 01:26:48.050
And I think like feeling closeness or comfortable with somebody to like laugh at stupid

01:26:48.050 --> 01:26:48.690
jokes, right?

01:26:48.770 --> 01:26:52.370
Like the when you feel comfortable, you watch like lowbrow TV together.

01:26:52.610 --> 01:26:53.250
Like I don't know.

01:26:53.330 --> 01:26:57.490
I've I've felt like watching TV for entertainment, sometimes with people you don't know

01:26:57.490 --> 01:26:59.970
well, kind of feels uncomfortable to you get to know them better.

01:27:00.210 --> 01:27:01.730
And I think it's probably part of this.

01:27:01.810 --> 01:27:07.090
It's just sort of like, uh, I'm like monitoring the costs to uh my

01:27:07.090 --> 01:27:08.610
reputation here, right?

01:27:10.440 --> 01:27:15.160
Not only about seeming dumb perhaps, but also a coordination about the values that you

01:27:15.160 --> 01:27:15.400
hold.

01:27:15.640 --> 01:27:15.880
Exactly.

01:27:17.000 --> 01:27:21.560
What if you laugh about a gay joke, but they're not sure.

01:27:21.640 --> 01:27:22.840
So it's that's an interesting idea.

01:27:23.000 --> 01:27:28.920
So uh if if the amount of data you have about me is really sparse, then each

01:27:28.920 --> 01:27:31.320
individual data point is really gonna matter more.

01:27:31.480 --> 01:27:35.320
And so it's gonna really matter if you catch me watching reality TV and you don't know me

01:27:35.320 --> 01:27:35.480
well.

01:27:35.670 --> 01:27:39.030
well if and that's the only information you have about me, then you're gonna make stronger

01:27:39.030 --> 01:27:43.510
inferences about me uh and and my intelligence or or work ethic or or whatever.

01:27:43.670 --> 01:27:46.710
But if you know me really well, you have a much larger data set.

01:27:46.870 --> 01:27:52.390
Uh and me watching reality TV isn't gonna change your your uh estimate of me very much.

01:27:52.550 --> 01:27:57.350
And so it may be that um when we feel closer to someone and we have more common experiences

01:27:57.350 --> 01:28:01.990
with them, we can sort of relax a little bit and and not worry about each, you know, you

01:28:01.990 --> 01:28:04.950
know, micro uh activity we engage in with them.

01:28:05.280 --> 01:28:05.360
Yeah.

01:28:05.680 --> 01:28:06.480
Microaggression.

01:28:06.640 --> 01:28:06.880
Yeah.

01:28:07.200 --> 01:28:11.040
And that really suggests it's really smart because it actually is like it's not only like

01:28:11.120 --> 01:28:16.960
what are the things I'm doing, like watching TV, relaxing, being like vulnerable with

01:28:16.960 --> 01:28:17.920
this other person.

01:28:18.160 --> 01:28:22.880
It's also then like there's a constant update of sort of what do they know about me and how

01:28:22.880 --> 01:28:28.880
do I think the event I'm doing now of putting my foot up, um, you know, belching,

01:28:29.170 --> 01:28:33.970
watching reality TV, how is that gonna affect their assessment of me?

01:28:34.130 --> 01:28:39.810
So it really suggests like a very rich representational system of like what am I doing

01:28:39.890 --> 01:28:45.090
and how will it be received by this other person given what they know about me currently?

01:28:46.130 --> 01:28:46.450
Yeah.

01:28:46.690 --> 01:28:48.530
I want to add another layer on top of this.

01:28:48.610 --> 01:28:50.930
I think self-control is probably part of it too.

01:28:51.170 --> 01:28:55.560
So uh Leo Fettucci, uh who we should probably have on uh at at some point has done really

01:28:55.560 --> 01:29:01.400
interesting work on uh how uh self-control and delaying gratification is moralized, that we

01:29:01.480 --> 01:29:05.480
that we view people who have a lot of self-discipline as more virtuous, and we view

01:29:05.480 --> 01:29:10.040
activities as expressing your your self-discipline or self-control as uh being you know

01:29:10.440 --> 01:29:11.800
morally praiseworthy.

01:29:11.880 --> 01:29:16.610
Um and so I and his argument is that you need self-control to be a good cooperative

01:29:16.610 --> 01:29:16.850
partner.

01:29:17.010 --> 01:29:21.250
That part of being in a cooperative relationship with someone is resisting the short-term

01:29:21.250 --> 01:29:22.770
temptation to defect.

01:29:22.930 --> 01:29:25.890
So if you can think about it as a marriage, you know, if if we're if we're married to each

01:29:25.890 --> 01:29:30.290
other, I have to resist the short-term temptation of cheating with with someone because I

01:29:30.290 --> 01:29:34.210
might get a short term benefit, but in the long run, it'll harm my my uh committed

01:29:34.210 --> 01:29:34.770
relationship.

01:29:34.930 --> 01:29:39.520
So if you're gonna trust me to be a good committed partner, uh a good uh thing to look for

01:29:39.520 --> 01:29:42.640
is my ability to resist temptations, right?

01:29:42.800 --> 01:29:48.800
And so we use self-control, uh self-uh discipline as a cue to a person's cooperative

01:29:48.800 --> 01:29:53.120
potential, their, their, their, uh, their trustworthiness, um, their likelihood of of being

01:29:53.120 --> 01:29:55.760
able to commit to us uh over the long run.

01:29:56.000 --> 01:30:01.450
And it may be that if you do things that require a lot of self-control, like watching a

01:30:01.450 --> 01:30:06.810
really boring movie or really reading a really long, boring book, that suggests that you

01:30:06.810 --> 01:30:09.370
have a lot of self-control and you're a really virtuous person.

01:30:09.530 --> 01:30:12.570
But if you're watching stuff that you don't need any self-control at all, you know, it's

01:30:12.570 --> 01:30:17.290
just immediately gratifying, like reality TV or junk food, then that suggests that you

01:30:17.290 --> 01:30:19.210
don't really have a lot of self control.

01:30:19.530 --> 01:30:24.760
Um and so I think that might so there there might be a a a uh an element of virtue uh and

01:30:24.760 --> 01:30:28.840
virtue signaling in here as well that you know it's seen as more virtuous to watch the

01:30:28.840 --> 01:30:34.520
black and white French film or to read the long boring novel from you know the the

01:30:34.520 --> 01:30:36.360
eighteen hundreds and Russia or whatever.

01:30:36.520 --> 01:30:40.280
Like that shows that I have a lot of self-discipline and I'm I'm gonna be a virtuous uh

01:30:40.520 --> 01:30:40.840
person.

01:30:41.720 --> 01:30:42.600
Interesting.

01:30:43.480 --> 01:30:43.800
Okay.

01:30:43.960 --> 01:30:48.070
Um I got some more stumpers for you, Sneezer.

01:30:48.710 --> 01:30:53.750
Um why should we be proud of the fact that we're humble?

01:30:53.910 --> 01:30:59.910
So if you think about humility as not being proud or not being arrogant or boastful about

01:30:59.910 --> 01:31:03.990
yourself, why should we be proud of the fact that we're not proud?

01:31:04.150 --> 01:31:06.310
Why should we be proud of our humility?

01:31:09.190 --> 01:31:15.120
Um so that is the topic of a paper that we have

01:31:15.120 --> 01:31:19.280
in the works with Landers and Durkey again, but in the pride domain.

01:31:20.000 --> 01:31:24.960
So pride has a mixed reputation in the Bible.

01:31:25.200 --> 01:31:29.680
My go-to book uh says that uh pride uh

01:31:31.040 --> 01:31:32.720
before the fallfall, yeah.

01:31:32.800 --> 01:31:36.960
Go with friend uh and uh Hottie spirit uh something.

01:31:37.520 --> 01:31:43.330
Uh before before the fall there is hubris and arrogance and pride is

01:31:43.330 --> 01:31:45.570
uh followed by catastrophe.

01:31:46.210 --> 01:31:51.730
But but at at the on the other hand, it's also the case that pride is part of a price

01:31:51.730 --> 01:31:57.010
system in the positive range uh of the price the brain

01:31:57.170 --> 01:31:59.970
collected he left.

01:32:03.140 --> 01:32:04.180
Yeah, David will be back.

01:32:04.260 --> 01:32:08.020
Uh, but just while David's coming back, it's pride goeth before destruction.

01:32:08.260 --> 01:32:08.660
Goeth.

01:32:08.980 --> 01:32:09.540
I love that.

01:32:10.180 --> 01:32:10.340
Okay.

01:32:10.500 --> 01:32:14.180
Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

01:32:14.500 --> 01:32:15.140
Before a fall.

01:32:15.300 --> 01:32:15.540
Yeah.

01:32:15.620 --> 01:32:16.340
So there you go.

01:32:16.500 --> 01:32:21.540
All the all the people who know the Bible better than us were cringing a few moments ago.

01:32:22.900 --> 01:32:24.260
Uh yes, yes, yes.

01:32:24.340 --> 01:32:24.580
Sorry.

01:32:24.660 --> 01:32:27.220
Yeah, it's uh it's a mortal offense to not know the Bible.

01:32:27.300 --> 01:32:27.380
No.

01:32:28.100 --> 01:32:28.900
I apologize.

01:32:29.250 --> 01:32:30.210
You shouldn't apologize.

01:32:30.530 --> 01:32:31.490
You should not feel shame.

01:32:31.730 --> 01:32:32.450
I feel shame.

01:32:32.610 --> 01:32:32.850
Yeah.

01:32:33.810 --> 01:32:39.250
Um, okay, and and pride is also part of a price of a price system that tells you the

01:32:39.250 --> 01:32:43.170
implicitly the collective price attached to positive things.

01:32:43.490 --> 01:32:49.410
And it uh so pride uh provides the incentive.

01:32:51.040 --> 01:32:52.160
has a bad reputation.

01:32:52.320 --> 01:32:57.600
Uh the Lord Almighty in heaven punishes if you have too much pride, but at the same time,

01:32:57.840 --> 01:33:03.840
pride provides the incentive for producing uh as a side as a side

01:33:03.840 --> 01:33:08.000
effect of your status pursuits socially valuable outcomes.

01:33:08.160 --> 01:33:14.050
So it's really the price system in the social games with which

01:33:14.050 --> 01:33:19.090
people produce great societal things, civilizations, families, uh

01:33:19.410 --> 01:33:23.650
conquests, uh commercial quests, uh

01:33:24.850 --> 01:33:30.850
population of new environments, uh, great things, big and small, are

01:33:30.850 --> 01:33:36.620
driven in big part by pride and the carrot to having higher status if you achieve these

01:33:36.620 --> 01:33:36.780
things.

01:33:36.940 --> 01:33:37.100
Right.

01:33:37.340 --> 01:33:41.100
So pride is the as a side effect of pride, you have great stuff.

01:33:41.180 --> 01:33:45.740
And so like if if you were to impair, like if we're if you think about humans as squishy

01:33:45.740 --> 01:33:51.260
robots, if you were to like snip out the pride system, probably a lot of

01:33:51.580 --> 01:33:57.420
the good or like non-entropic stuff that has been produced by humans over history

01:33:57.420 --> 01:33:58.620
would probably not exist.

01:33:59.020 --> 01:33:59.500
Yeah.

01:33:59.660 --> 01:34:00.140
Yeah.

01:34:00.380 --> 01:34:00.780
Yeah.

01:34:00.940 --> 01:34:01.730
I think so.

01:34:02.290 --> 01:34:03.090
Interesting.

01:34:03.330 --> 01:34:03.650
Okay.

01:34:04.930 --> 01:34:05.170
Yeah.

01:34:05.250 --> 01:34:05.490
Go ahead.

01:34:05.730 --> 01:34:06.370
No, okay.

01:34:07.570 --> 01:34:08.450
Sorry, go ahead.

01:34:08.530 --> 01:34:08.850
Go ahead.

01:34:09.090 --> 01:34:11.250
But I found the bail I found the Bible quote, David.

01:34:11.330 --> 01:34:14.610
It was pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

01:34:14.690 --> 01:34:19.490
So Ah, that's a lovely example of of the paradoxical nature of pride.

01:34:19.730 --> 01:34:23.170
Um so if you have anything more to add, uh add it, but I'll uh if not I'll move on to the

01:34:23.170 --> 01:34:23.810
next dumper.

01:34:24.700 --> 01:34:30.460
long story short, uh Jessica Tracy, one person in the Tangni realm

01:34:30.620 --> 01:34:35.020
intrapersonal, she started off with a theory of pride as intrapersonal.

01:34:35.180 --> 01:34:40.860
It's pride is the bad pride is if I attribute the success to my great self.

01:34:41.020 --> 01:34:45.420
Uh it's good pride if I think the pride is uh due to my action.

01:34:45.660 --> 01:34:51.580
But we have uh falsificationist uh experiments run in several countries showing

01:34:51.580 --> 01:34:57.510
that the there's probably we we believe that these two

01:34:57.510 --> 01:35:00.150
facets or subtypes of prides is not a thing.

01:35:00.310 --> 01:35:06.070
There's a pride system that is complex, and the moniker or the concept of

01:35:06.070 --> 01:35:11.750
hubris or arrogance is not so much a pride system, but rather a concept leveraged at those

01:35:11.750 --> 01:35:13.510
who claim too much respect.

01:35:13.750 --> 01:35:16.150
Um it's it's a concept applied to other people.

01:35:16.230 --> 01:35:17.430
I'm not arrogant.

01:35:17.510 --> 01:35:19.510
Uh you are arrogant, uh Dave.

01:35:20.310 --> 01:35:20.950
I'm not arrogant.

01:35:22.160 --> 01:35:24.080
It's you guys who are arrogant.

01:35:24.320 --> 01:35:27.440
And and we have support for that in our papers.

01:35:27.520 --> 01:35:31.920
And again, like in the Shaman Gill paper, we have strong support for the interpersonal

01:35:31.920 --> 01:35:36.080
theory of pride and low support for the attributional theory of pride.

01:35:36.240 --> 01:35:41.920
And I think what happens is we show that the hubris thing is

01:35:42.400 --> 01:35:47.950
a function of the degree to which a person or someone else overclaims

01:35:47.950 --> 01:35:52.510
relative to the true social price of the action that they attain.

01:35:52.990 --> 01:35:58.990
And so arrogance people don't like because uh for various reasons, because you have to pay

01:35:58.990 --> 01:36:04.830
higher than the price that they're worth, and that's uh excessive uh cost, that's

01:36:04.830 --> 01:36:05.310
not good.

01:36:05.470 --> 01:36:10.190
But also in envious rivalrous relationships, um, if you achieve even if you're correctly

01:36:10.190 --> 01:36:11.630
calibrated, that's bad for me.

01:36:11.710 --> 01:36:17.260
So there's a number of things, but uh long story short, arrogance people dislike for those

01:36:17.260 --> 01:36:22.540
reasons and uh so to show lack of arrogance is is good

01:36:23.180 --> 01:36:27.740
and um so to show proper calibration is

01:36:30.460 --> 01:36:36.060
is good uh it's it's better than if you show excessive pride from the standpoint of

01:36:36.060 --> 01:36:41.420
showing the thing yeah and you may still get some crap if other people are envious

01:36:42.130 --> 01:36:46.690
Um, and you have a bullshit also side to the story,

01:36:47.890 --> 01:36:53.730
which is uh pretending that so all the academics now are now are hot

01:36:54.050 --> 01:36:59.090
about humility, uh, and that seems like bullshit, if I could paraphrase you,

01:36:59.970 --> 01:37:03.490
and uh humble brag or something that seems like bullshit.

01:37:03.760 --> 01:37:09.760
They now that they have achieved the it seems like the kind of stuff that

01:37:09.760 --> 01:37:15.520
you do when you have achieved and you promulgate and you

01:37:15.520 --> 01:37:21.280
proselytize so that the upstarts uh don't dethrone you or something like that.

01:37:21.680 --> 01:37:22.560
It could be in part.

01:37:22.800 --> 01:37:22.960
Yeah.

01:37:23.120 --> 01:37:27.440
I mean can I can cause I often talk about humility being good things, so I'm gonna defend

01:37:27.440 --> 01:37:33.170
humility a little bit, which is the way I use it at least is sort of um it's calling out a

01:37:33.170 --> 01:37:39.090
status game that's sort of uh orthogonal to the one I think we should be

01:37:39.090 --> 01:37:39.330
playing.

01:37:39.490 --> 01:37:45.490
So for example, like uh not not like you know studying kids or

01:37:45.490 --> 01:37:51.170
like women's social coalitional uh power because like those are important aspects of like

01:37:51.330 --> 01:37:56.860
human phenotypes but um, but like they're low bargaining power

01:37:56.860 --> 01:37:59.180
entities in our cultural milieu.

01:37:59.260 --> 01:38:05.180
And so like being humble about like that, you know, these are important classes of evolved

01:38:05.180 --> 01:38:10.780
situations of like being a kid, being a woman, like you know, having low bargaining power.

01:38:11.020 --> 01:38:16.710
Um, it the the call to humility is sort of like uh don't just

01:38:16.710 --> 01:38:22.550
read out of sort of like what status aspirational in your mind scientists think about the

01:38:22.550 --> 01:38:28.310
things that like are humble um in in order to sort of pursue those things, like you know,

01:38:28.470 --> 01:38:30.870
the low bargaining power situations or people.

01:38:31.110 --> 01:38:34.470
So that's my defense of like a call to humility.

01:38:35.700 --> 01:38:41.300
Sorry, uh I couldn't follow if you're saying uh people with low bargaining power are humble

01:38:41.300 --> 01:38:46.820
in their relationship with more powerful people, or intellectuals who or academics who

01:38:46.820 --> 01:38:52.820
study uh women, they need to be humble in order to be open to the what low-power

01:38:52.820 --> 01:38:55.140
people do, or yeah, I think I mean the second one.

01:38:55.220 --> 01:38:58.420
I mean, I think the first is true, but like I think the the second one is what I mean in

01:38:58.420 --> 01:38:58.900
this context.

01:38:58.980 --> 01:38:59.620
Yeah, that's right.

01:38:59.700 --> 01:39:05.630
Like I think that there's uh you can look at like evolved psychologies of scientists

01:39:05.870 --> 01:39:11.870
and sort of say we should be more humble, which could mean like um it doesn't

01:39:11.870 --> 01:39:17.790
just mean like, you know, a f keep affording me the status, Daniel, you know, or if I

01:39:17.790 --> 01:39:19.630
tell you to be humble, right?

01:39:19.870 --> 01:39:25.380
It could mean like, yeah, I've I've made it and I want you to not, you know, be an upstart

01:39:25.380 --> 01:39:26.180
against me.

01:39:26.340 --> 01:39:32.020
But it could also mean like we should um we might be blind to like

01:39:32.180 --> 01:39:37.700
looking at uh things respecting things that we don't respect because of the

01:39:37.700 --> 01:39:40.420
bargaining power status that our brains register.

01:39:40.580 --> 01:39:40.900
Right.

01:39:41.300 --> 01:39:47.220
So so the so the no so the call to study non-weird people is humble humble we should

01:39:47.220 --> 01:39:53.170
look beyond our own naval and uh exactly, or like who like if there's a category

01:39:53.170 --> 01:39:58.770
of people that like our society devalues, and to the extent that I

01:39:58.770 --> 01:40:04.530
register that, and that biases me not even understanding like the psychology of those

01:40:04.530 --> 01:40:10.450
people, a call to humility is sort of like don't use the readout of your value system

01:40:10.450 --> 01:40:16.420
as a human being uh or correct for that when you're doing the science is the way to put it.

01:40:16.900 --> 01:40:22.100
That that that's that uh not not to psychoanalyze you or anything, yeah, but that's that

01:40:22.100 --> 01:40:27.700
sounds like the like the AWA system uh in the form of noblesse

01:40:27.860 --> 01:40:33.540
oblige because traditionally it's the peasant that owes me allegiance and and respect if

01:40:33.540 --> 01:40:34.340
I'm the king.

01:40:34.420 --> 01:40:34.740
Right.

01:40:34.980 --> 01:40:40.550
That's uh but it but in the nobless of leash of this thing, uh we are now uh

01:40:40.550 --> 01:40:46.470
enlightened um elites and we can uh give voice to

01:40:46.470 --> 01:40:48.230
the unvoiced or the the platform.

01:40:48.310 --> 01:40:48.710
Yeah, okay.

01:40:48.790 --> 01:40:51.590
So it's it sounds like that, but in the liberal value, yeah.

01:40:51.910 --> 01:40:51.990
Yeah.

01:40:52.390 --> 01:40:52.870
Yep.

01:40:53.110 --> 01:40:53.750
Yep.

01:40:54.310 --> 01:40:54.630
Okay.

01:40:54.950 --> 01:40:56.230
Next dumper.

01:40:57.300 --> 01:40:58.420
Fashion.

01:40:58.820 --> 01:41:04.820
So my wife has been uh telling me that apparently baggy pants are in and all of

01:41:04.820 --> 01:41:06.260
my pants are non-baggy.

01:41:06.660 --> 01:41:10.580
And so when I was alerted to this fact, I'm like, oh no, my entire wardrobe is uncool.

01:41:10.660 --> 01:41:11.460
I'm an uncool person.

01:41:11.780 --> 01:41:15.300
Yeah, keep your wardrobe from like 20 years ago, just it's gonna come back.

01:41:15.620 --> 01:41:16.180
Just wait it out.

01:41:16.340 --> 01:41:16.900
Yeah, exactly.

01:41:17.460 --> 01:41:20.870
But if I if I wait it out, you know, if I do that strategy, I'm gonna be uncool for a

01:41:20.870 --> 01:41:24.710
certain period of time, and I might even feel some shame about being uncool and wearing

01:41:24.710 --> 01:41:26.230
unfashionable clothes.

01:41:26.470 --> 01:41:28.070
What on earth is that about?

01:41:28.230 --> 01:41:33.750
Why should I be feeling shame for uh the bagginess or lack thereof of my

01:41:33.750 --> 01:41:34.310
pants?

01:41:34.470 --> 01:41:38.390
What does that have to do with my value as a social partner, Daniel Sneezer?

01:41:39.800 --> 01:41:45.000
Well if you're it's if it's your wife not not to not to get inside of your

01:41:46.120 --> 01:41:48.440
bedroom uh I don't want to be able to do that.

01:41:48.600 --> 01:41:49.560
No, you're you're you're welcome.

01:41:49.640 --> 01:41:51.080
You're welcome in my bedroom, Danny.

01:41:51.400 --> 01:41:56.920
But uh well uh that's a different quote.

01:41:59.560 --> 01:42:05.240
But if you're if your wife is giving you hints that your fashion is out of step, then

01:42:05.240 --> 01:42:07.010
maybe I don't know.

01:42:07.330 --> 01:42:10.850
So you think the fact that it's coming from my wife, if it was coming from someone else,

01:42:10.930 --> 01:42:12.450
maybe I wouldn't feel shame.

01:42:13.250 --> 01:42:14.370
Uh yeah, I don't know.

01:42:14.450 --> 01:42:16.450
Um did she bring it up, David, or did you notice it?

01:42:16.610 --> 01:42:18.930
Well, I mean, my my wife is i incredibly fashionable.

01:42:19.170 --> 01:42:23.570
And she's very you know, very, you know, gets compliments all the time about, you know, her

01:42:23.570 --> 01:42:24.290
out her outfits.

01:42:24.450 --> 01:42:28.210
So I trust her as an authority on what is cool and and what isn't it's not merely that

01:42:28.210 --> 01:42:28.610
she's my wife.

01:42:28.690 --> 01:42:31.970
I uh it's that I I trust her her judgments on on this matter.

01:42:32.290 --> 01:42:34.130
But did you bring it up or did she bring it up?

01:42:34.290 --> 01:42:34.930
The pants?

01:42:35.300 --> 01:42:36.260
Uh, she brought it up.

01:42:36.500 --> 01:42:37.540
Uh, okay, yeah.

01:42:38.180 --> 01:42:43.540
I don't know fashion because I could never afford more than old navy uh things at a

01:42:43.540 --> 01:42:44.500
discount.

01:42:45.140 --> 01:42:51.060
But um but yeah, I guess yeah, I I don't know these uh

01:42:51.060 --> 01:42:56.980
fashion things, but I guess if your wife tells you things like uh this is the first

01:42:56.980 --> 01:42:57.380
order, right?

01:42:57.460 --> 01:43:03.300
I don't know the more exotic games, but uh hey honey, you have uh your your belly is too

01:43:03.300 --> 01:43:09.170
big or uh you ain't the tiger that you used to be, or something like that, then

01:43:09.170 --> 01:43:10.770
that gives you pause, right?

01:43:10.930 --> 01:43:11.410
Mm-hmm.

01:43:11.730 --> 01:43:12.450
Well that makes sense.

01:43:12.530 --> 01:43:18.290
But it then it just begs the question of why she or others would be using the bagginess of

01:43:18.290 --> 01:43:22.290
my pants as a criterion for evaluating my character.

01:43:22.450 --> 01:43:26.050
What on earth does that have to do with my value as a social partner?

01:43:26.290 --> 01:43:27.250
Yeah, that seems crazy.

01:43:27.500 --> 01:43:29.740
Maybe, maybe maybe, maybe she's worried.

01:43:29.820 --> 01:43:34.140
Maybe it's like a humor thing, or it's sort of like you don't know the it's a it's a worry

01:43:34.140 --> 01:43:38.460
that she's on top of the changing coordination norms.

01:43:39.020 --> 01:43:43.340
And and she's like, oh well David is and I am in the same boat, so I don't, I'm not saying

01:43:43.340 --> 01:43:45.980
this just about you, like I also don't have baggy pants.

01:43:46.060 --> 01:43:51.820
But um, you know, if David is blind to these changing norms, there's a

01:43:51.820 --> 01:43:57.590
concern that the coordination, your coordination and in just keeping up to date with

01:43:57.590 --> 01:44:03.430
sort of what is the culture valuing, it's a it's a cue that you're not you're

01:44:03.430 --> 01:44:09.350
no longer um and there might even be you're you're let me finish the sentence there you're

01:44:09.350 --> 01:44:13.910
no longer keeping up to date as much as you need to and I do wonder like there's this these

01:44:13.910 --> 01:44:19.500
tropes of like I don't like as you get older you know, like kids are just like sponges of

01:44:19.500 --> 01:44:22.220
sort of like what's the coordination game, what's the status game?

01:44:22.460 --> 01:44:26.860
There's like a certain age where you're just like, I've ballistically committed to one of

01:44:26.860 --> 01:44:27.820
these, right?

01:44:27.980 --> 01:44:31.580
And like there might even be like recursion of sort of like that's known.

01:44:31.660 --> 01:44:36.700
And so she's sort of like, David, are you are you like ossifying like culturally with your

01:44:36.700 --> 01:44:37.340
status game?

01:44:37.500 --> 01:44:39.500
Like that might even be like clubbing for that.

01:44:39.950 --> 01:44:45.950
So it's a cue to my low social intelligence, my low ability to coordinate

01:44:45.950 --> 01:44:48.590
on the changing social conventions and social norms.

01:44:48.670 --> 01:44:53.150
And that's a cue that I'm going to do lots of awkward, oafish things and social

01:44:53.150 --> 01:44:54.830
interactions and make various faux pas.

01:44:55.390 --> 01:44:59.870
Uh and that's just a cue to my my social intelligence and coordination ability.

01:45:00.030 --> 01:45:00.590
I buy that.

01:45:00.670 --> 01:45:02.500
I think that's a good that's a good explanation.

01:45:02.660 --> 01:45:02.820
Yeah.

01:45:02.900 --> 01:45:04.980
And then you know it's and it's empirically testable too.

01:45:05.140 --> 01:45:09.140
You would expect you know, uh people to draw inferences about more well dressed fashionable

01:45:09.140 --> 01:45:11.060
people as being more socially intelligent.

01:45:11.220 --> 01:45:13.300
And you would expect that that inference to be correct.

01:45:13.380 --> 01:45:16.340
That is, more fashionable people should be more socially intelligent.

01:45:16.420 --> 01:45:20.180
They should be better at playing coordination games than than less fashionable people.

01:45:20.820 --> 01:45:22.260
The age thing is really interesting too.

01:45:22.340 --> 01:45:23.220
Like I threw out all this.

01:45:23.300 --> 01:45:24.580
I mean, I know we're all parents too.

01:45:24.660 --> 01:45:30.010
Like this whole thing about like kind of shame and guilt, like kids, you know, there's this

01:45:30.010 --> 01:45:35.290
thing that the this this trope of sort of guilt is useless or shame is useless, and kids

01:45:35.290 --> 01:45:35.770
learn it.

01:45:35.930 --> 01:45:37.530
And I think like there is something to that, right?

01:45:37.610 --> 01:45:39.850
In the sense of like it's calibrated to the social world.

01:45:39.930 --> 01:45:43.130
But like clearly, the conclusion here is like it's not useless.

01:45:43.290 --> 01:45:48.810
But there is like this this um lifespan trajectory of sort of acquiring this,

01:45:49.020 --> 01:45:50.460
becoming worried about things.

01:45:50.620 --> 01:45:53.100
Infants don't seem to have this, or young kids don't.

01:45:53.580 --> 01:45:58.860
There there's uh stuff on the life history, life trajectory of uh shame.

01:45:59.580 --> 01:46:04.780
And it's um uh it doesn't track exactly what you

01:46:05.180 --> 01:46:06.780
mentioned about ballisticness.

01:46:06.860 --> 01:46:10.540
Now now I'm I'm retired and I don't give a fuck about what other people think of me.

01:46:10.780 --> 01:46:10.940
Right.

01:46:11.180 --> 01:46:16.870
But but it's uh uh U shaped in that there's another effect when you're

01:46:16.870 --> 01:46:22.630
old in that you become you lose your, you know, muscle tone and skills, etc.

01:46:22.870 --> 01:46:24.070
And you become dependent on others.

01:46:24.150 --> 01:46:24.310
Yes.

01:46:24.470 --> 01:46:25.750
So there's higher shame.

01:46:26.230 --> 01:46:26.790
Oh interesting.

01:46:27.030 --> 01:46:27.190
Yeah.

01:46:27.350 --> 01:46:28.950
Chris von Ruden mentioned that too.

01:46:29.030 --> 01:46:33.750
That really like old the the status um and the dimensions of status, like the oldest

01:46:33.750 --> 01:46:34.070
people.

01:46:34.390 --> 01:46:39.590
Um it it can happen, but it is the he that very much matches with him and his experience in

01:46:39.670 --> 01:46:41.040
Schwarland, yeah.

01:46:41.520 --> 01:46:47.280
My my my grandma, uh the Polish grandma that I have, may the Lord bless her

01:46:47.280 --> 01:46:53.120
soul, uh, she told me something that was uh shockingly hilarious,

01:46:53.280 --> 01:46:59.040
uh, namely uh she was very old and she told me something like I

01:46:59.040 --> 01:47:04.640
can't reproduce exactly because but something like don't put me in an old

01:47:04.640 --> 01:47:10.410
people's home or something like that, because uh I dislike

01:47:10.410 --> 01:47:16.330
old people they're sorry I I they are they're ugly they're disgusting and she

01:47:16.330 --> 01:47:21.770
was saying that as an old person herself who but she didn't like all people right

01:47:22.490 --> 01:47:27.850
and uh where I'm going with this um yeah

01:47:28.250 --> 01:47:34.000
something along those lines uh yeah yeah you can the loss of new traits that you

01:47:34.000 --> 01:47:37.760
possess as as low value you can be disgusted by people who are just like you.

01:47:38.160 --> 01:47:39.040
Yes, yes, yes.

01:47:39.280 --> 01:47:39.600
Yeah, yeah.

01:47:53.650 --> 01:47:59.650
that make you do that, but at the on the other hand, you have the ancient machines for

01:47:59.810 --> 01:48:05.170
assessing mate value and skills and force and this and that

01:48:05.330 --> 01:48:07.090
productivity and those are low.

01:48:07.410 --> 01:48:07.650
Right.

01:48:07.810 --> 01:48:07.970
Yeah.

01:48:08.210 --> 01:48:11.970
Ugly people are gonna think hot people are hot just as much as hot people think hot people

01:48:11.970 --> 01:48:12.290
are hot.

01:48:12.690 --> 01:48:13.010
Yeah.

01:48:13.170 --> 01:48:13.490
Yeah.

01:48:13.650 --> 01:48:14.290
Yeah.

01:48:14.610 --> 01:48:17.000
Um, Yeah, interesting.

01:48:17.240 --> 01:48:17.560
Okay.

01:48:18.200 --> 01:48:21.480
Um well I have a few more stumpers.

01:48:21.560 --> 01:48:24.840
Maybe, maybe, maybe do one more and then we'll uh wrap things up.

01:48:25.160 --> 01:48:25.880
Yeah, yeah.

01:48:26.280 --> 01:48:29.000
Um Okay.

01:48:29.800 --> 01:48:31.560
They're all traveling.

01:48:31.880 --> 01:48:37.010
People often get status for having traveled to exotic locations.

01:48:37.490 --> 01:48:42.210
And people often humble brag about their uh wonderful vacations that they've taken.

01:48:42.530 --> 01:48:48.450
If you've been to many places in Europe, uh places very far away, the further away you

01:48:48.450 --> 01:48:50.690
go, the more status you gain, I think.

01:48:51.890 --> 01:48:54.050
Why what is going on there?

01:48:54.210 --> 01:48:57.250
Why why is that a cue to to a valuable social partner?

01:48:59.560 --> 01:49:05.560
Uh well you have money and you have the insulation from the

01:49:05.560 --> 01:49:11.480
consequences of traveling to faraway places with no cane or something,

01:49:11.640 --> 01:49:17.000
and so you're powerful uh less

01:49:17.000 --> 01:49:22.360
powerful, resourceful people can ill they have to toil uh

01:49:22.520 --> 01:49:24.360
endlessly in pain.

01:49:24.600 --> 01:49:28.370
So maybe it's a cue that you have what it takes to do that.

01:49:29.330 --> 01:49:31.570
So I'm sturdy and I'm wealthy.

01:49:33.490 --> 01:49:35.890
That's I think that's probably partly what's going on.

01:49:35.970 --> 01:49:39.890
But but I I would imagine that the inference would still be there even if I'm not the one

01:49:39.890 --> 01:49:40.690
who's paying for it.

01:49:40.850 --> 01:49:45.090
If someone else is paying me to travel to exotic lands, say I'm a journalist and I'm you

01:49:45.090 --> 01:49:48.130
know traveling to very faraway places to do journalism work.

01:49:48.610 --> 01:49:54.520
But but you like but you have but you have the you acquire the knowledge in

01:49:54.520 --> 01:50:00.120
other remote places, but also you have the social worth big enough for someone else to pay

01:50:00.120 --> 01:50:00.680
your thing.

01:50:00.840 --> 01:50:01.480
So your job.

01:50:02.440 --> 01:50:02.520
Yeah.

01:50:02.680 --> 01:50:07.720
Or like when I lived in Berlin, like a trip to like Barcelona was like 45 euros.

01:50:07.880 --> 01:50:12.120
Um you know, and so uh yeah.

01:50:12.440 --> 01:50:14.360
So yeah, I mean, I think I I agree, Daniel.

01:50:14.520 --> 01:50:16.520
Like I think there there is something definitely to that.

01:50:16.680 --> 01:50:20.870
I mean, do you think it's also like just this thing of like again, it's like social

01:50:20.870 --> 01:50:21.590
capital, right?

01:50:21.670 --> 01:50:25.670
It's just sort of like you know, and you know another place.

01:50:25.750 --> 01:50:31.590
Like I can say, like living in another uh country, it took a really long time

01:50:31.590 --> 01:50:33.910
to get adaptable to that.

01:50:33.990 --> 01:50:37.910
And I can tell you right now, like if we were we all went to Berlin, I could like really

01:50:37.910 --> 01:50:43.900
coordinate for all three of us in a way that it took me like months and I was like in

01:50:43.900 --> 01:50:47.100
tears sometimes, like of being just discordinated.

01:50:47.340 --> 01:50:52.220
And so like I value that about like that I have that skill.

01:50:52.380 --> 01:50:53.820
Like it's almost like a hunting skill.

01:50:53.900 --> 01:50:56.060
Like I know how to, you know, I know how to be in a place.

01:50:56.220 --> 01:50:58.300
And I think that like that's pretty valuable.

01:50:58.540 --> 01:50:58.860
Oh yeah.

01:50:58.940 --> 01:50:59.340
Oh yeah.

01:50:59.420 --> 01:50:59.820
Absolutely.

01:50:59.900 --> 01:51:00.140
Yeah.

01:51:00.220 --> 01:51:00.620
Yeah.

01:51:00.940 --> 01:51:06.380
One one of the one of the favorite pastimes of Jews is uh

01:51:06.860 --> 01:51:12.570
to map out early on two Jews meet for the first time

01:51:12.570 --> 01:51:15.690
from from different countries or from different states or whatever.

01:51:15.850 --> 01:51:21.770
And a favorite pastime of Jews having been dispossessed and slaughtered, etc., is to

01:51:21.770 --> 01:51:27.610
map out the in geography and in social landscape and in geographical landscape who they

01:51:27.610 --> 01:51:29.850
know in in joint.

01:51:30.250 --> 01:51:36.250
And this is a big important thing that I suspect that maybe other

01:51:36.250 --> 01:51:37.370
people do that too.

01:51:37.620 --> 01:51:43.540
Uh it's a I suspect it's a universal, but it's um oh you know this person, I know

01:51:43.540 --> 01:51:46.420
that person too, and they're and I know this other person in that same place.

01:51:46.660 --> 01:51:47.940
Does that person know this person?

01:51:48.100 --> 01:51:49.620
And what about this this place?

01:51:49.700 --> 01:51:51.540
Uh they they used to be in this place.

01:51:51.700 --> 01:51:52.340
Do you know anybody?

01:51:52.500 --> 01:51:58.500
You know, it's it's basically the more uh the richer your view of the geographic

01:51:58.500 --> 01:52:03.380
landscape and how it uh intersects with your social network, the more escape routes you

01:52:03.380 --> 01:52:04.260
potentially have.

01:52:04.500 --> 01:52:06.020
Should you be in danger, right?

01:52:06.290 --> 01:52:10.690
The more people you know in a faraway place you can go and and potentially meet up with

01:52:10.690 --> 01:52:10.850
them.

01:52:11.010 --> 01:52:12.770
Uh yeah, interesting.

01:52:13.090 --> 01:52:17.330
It it's not exactly the competitive game, or it could be competitive, but it's also

01:52:17.330 --> 01:52:22.930
collaborative because it's joint and uh there's

01:52:22.930 --> 01:52:24.850
seems more collaborative.

01:52:25.490 --> 01:52:28.850
Uh it's not so much bragging, although there could be some of that.

01:52:29.010 --> 01:52:34.700
There there's a fantastic book uh in the tenth century by uh by one Benjamin of Tugela.

01:52:34.780 --> 01:52:40.620
Tugela is a city in Spain, and the guy traveled a little bit like Marco Polo from his small

01:52:40.620 --> 01:52:46.620
town in Spain to uh out of Europe and Mesopotamia or

01:52:46.620 --> 01:52:52.060
uh Iraq, uh Israel and many uh Syria,

01:52:52.220 --> 01:52:58.140
Lebanon, and he he gives a census of all the Jewish communities, 500 here and

01:52:58.140 --> 01:53:02.470
200 here, And the book is absolutely fascinating.

01:53:02.630 --> 01:53:07.430
Uh, down to the, you know, the name the name of the notables and the uh the

01:53:07.750 --> 01:53:08.710
professions.

01:53:09.350 --> 01:53:14.470
And I don't know why I mentioned this, but it's absolutely fascinating as a

01:53:15.430 --> 01:53:19.590
piece of uh historical literature and psychology too, I think.

01:53:19.920 --> 01:53:20.160
Yeah.

01:53:20.480 --> 01:53:23.280
I think getting the lay of the land, like even like mundane things.

01:53:23.360 --> 01:53:27.920
Like even I like if you go, like if we all went for like a hike in the backcountry of like

01:53:27.920 --> 01:53:31.920
Southern California and it's like hot and dangerous, and there's somebody who is like

01:53:31.920 --> 01:53:34.880
skilled and knows stuff, like you just kind of value that, right?

01:53:34.960 --> 01:53:36.880
Of like this is somebody who knows the landscape.

01:53:36.960 --> 01:53:37.840
We're not gonna get lost.

01:53:37.920 --> 01:53:40.000
They know like where water is.

01:53:40.240 --> 01:53:44.880
It's not exactly that, but it's kind of it's that's like a very like light version of of

01:53:44.880 --> 01:53:48.470
this thing where there's just sort of like somebody knows the lay of the land, can navigate

01:53:48.470 --> 01:53:52.870
well, knows more about it than you do, and can kind of be your tour guide.

01:53:52.950 --> 01:53:53.190
You know?

01:53:53.510 --> 01:53:53.590
Yeah.

01:53:53.750 --> 01:53:56.630
It's a true there might even be a bit of mismatch.

01:53:56.790 --> 01:54:02.550
You know, if we lived in smaller geographic locations ancestrally, then a person who has

01:54:02.550 --> 01:54:06.070
been to more distant regions is going to be more useful because maybe you know they'll

01:54:06.150 --> 01:54:09.190
they'll be able to guide you through that new region if you need to go there.

01:54:09.420 --> 01:54:14.780
But in in a in a more globalized world, like if someone who's been to you know Morocco, uh

01:54:14.860 --> 01:54:18.620
I'm probab you know, maybe I'll never go to Morocco in my entire life, but they still get

01:54:18.620 --> 01:54:22.460
status for having been to Morocco because sort of my Stone Age mind thinks that that's

01:54:22.460 --> 01:54:26.540
useful information that might come in handy someday, even though it probably won't, right?

01:54:26.700 --> 01:54:31.100
Because their our Stone Age mind is adapted to a smaller geographic uh circle.

01:54:31.900 --> 01:54:32.380
Interesting.

01:54:32.540 --> 01:54:33.180
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:54:33.580 --> 01:54:34.060
Cool.

01:54:34.390 --> 01:54:34.870
Anyway.

01:54:35.270 --> 01:54:41.270
Editors and reviewers value your paper to the degree that your data are hard to get.

01:54:41.350 --> 01:54:46.470
And part of the hardness to get is the distance that you travel to get that data.

01:54:46.710 --> 01:54:50.950
And it's been devalued by MTurk because you can collect.

01:54:51.110 --> 01:54:56.760
So in the in the early 2000s, when there was no MTurk, if I get data from India, I get a

01:54:56.760 --> 01:55:02.440
top journal because I went f it's the labor theory of value, Marxist theory of value

01:55:02.440 --> 01:55:03.800
applied to academia.

01:55:04.120 --> 01:55:09.400
I traveled far away, I trekked a lot, and I collected exotic data and I'm cool, I have high

01:55:09.400 --> 01:55:09.880
status.

01:55:10.120 --> 01:55:15.960
But fast forward ten or fifteen years, I get I send my papers with India M Turk

01:55:16.120 --> 01:55:21.640
and it's not weird and it's uh all hat and who cares because I have the M Turk.

01:55:22.120 --> 01:55:24.200
Yeah, and almost it almost ties back to the too.

01:55:24.280 --> 01:55:26.040
That's Adam Smith, not just Marx.

01:55:26.610 --> 01:55:26.930
Yeah.

01:55:27.810 --> 01:55:31.570
But that that ties back to the idea of of the virtue of self-control that if you have the

01:55:31.570 --> 01:55:36.850
amount of self-discipline to travel to an exotic location and and brave the the wilderness

01:55:36.850 --> 01:55:41.490
and the novel novelty there, then you you must you know you must really be you know a

01:55:41.490 --> 01:55:43.650
virtuous, committed person.

01:55:44.130 --> 01:55:47.890
But if you just you know get a bunch of easy data on MTurk, you know, any any schmuck could

01:55:47.890 --> 01:55:47.970
do that.

01:55:49.410 --> 01:55:50.130
Exactly.

01:55:50.530 --> 01:55:54.720
Uh Daniel, one question for you.

01:55:54.960 --> 01:56:00.560
Well, well, one question is because we're wrapping up, is you we spent some time together

01:56:00.560 --> 01:56:01.280
in CP.

01:56:01.360 --> 01:56:02.960
You spent a lot of time with John Tubi.

01:56:04.800 --> 01:56:09.680
We don't always talk about, but we've we've had like you know some Tubi students on, um,

01:56:09.760 --> 01:56:11.040
you know, and we miss John.

01:56:11.440 --> 01:56:16.430
Do you have any sort of like um, and I don't want to like, you know, uh put you on the

01:56:16.430 --> 01:56:20.750
spot, but is there anything about John that like for people who didn't know him?

01:56:20.990 --> 01:56:26.910
Um, or or like, you know, to convey sort of like what what being around John was

01:56:26.910 --> 01:56:32.590
like or um, you know, he we we both spent a lot of time with him, but uh but part of the

01:56:32.750 --> 01:56:36.830
the point of doing this is sort of like getting people to know the people doing of psych

01:56:37.150 --> 01:56:40.030
one of the people we can't do that for anymore is John.

01:56:40.590 --> 01:56:45.940
Um, you know, is there something that you think of that sort of conveys what John was like?

01:56:46.100 --> 01:56:51.940
Or an alternative is sort of like um, you know, for me at least, you know,

01:56:52.020 --> 01:56:55.380
working with John and Lita, you know, like they really were important in this field, and

01:56:55.380 --> 01:56:57.780
it's such an honor to have worked with them.

01:56:58.020 --> 01:57:03.620
Um, for you, how has it been, or what was it like kind of working with them and and sort of

01:57:03.620 --> 01:57:08.980
how do you think about that going forward and and sort of continuing the legacy of of their

01:57:08.980 --> 01:57:09.300
work?

01:57:11.370 --> 01:57:16.890
Uh you put me in an emotional spot, it's hard to say.

01:57:17.130 --> 01:57:23.050
Um, but uh to say that I owe them my life

01:57:23.050 --> 01:57:27.210
would be a little bit too dramatic, but it was something like that.

01:57:27.450 --> 01:57:33.050
Um uh initially in the lab I was extremely shameful

01:57:33.690 --> 01:57:39.610
because there they are gods, and I was a um a lowly

01:57:39.610 --> 01:57:45.300
creature, And but they paradoxically, because they are

01:57:45.540 --> 01:57:50.500
incredibly kind, as everyone says, not

01:57:50.500 --> 01:57:55.140
corresponding with the amount of power that they have given their wisdom.

01:57:55.940 --> 01:58:01.860
So slowly, I'm a slow thinker, and it took me a many, a long, very long time to

01:58:01.860 --> 01:58:04.660
uh calibrate to the American experience.

01:58:05.060 --> 01:58:09.940
Uh that I could stare at them in the eyes or call them by their first names, etc.

01:58:10.670 --> 01:58:16.590
and then and then at some point it clicked and i was spending uh many long

01:58:16.590 --> 01:58:22.590
hours at night in their home making completely inappropriate jokes with uh to be

01:58:23.230 --> 01:58:27.790
unspeakable things like he was like a like a father uh

01:58:29.790 --> 01:58:35.320
and uh yeah yeah yeah yeah He he was an

01:58:35.320 --> 01:58:41.000
incredible observer and hysterically hilarious and unspeakably funny.

01:58:41.160 --> 01:58:41.640
Yes.

01:58:41.880 --> 01:58:47.000
Uh he would say things in me that I didn't know myself, so yeah, very, very extremely

01:58:47.000 --> 01:58:51.880
brilliant and extremely kind and nice and funny and everything else.

01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:52.120
Yeah.

01:58:52.360 --> 01:58:52.520
Yeah.

01:58:52.600 --> 01:58:58.270
And for John, uh for me it was like uh there's this category of like people who every time

01:58:58.270 --> 01:58:59.710
they open their mouth they learn something.

01:58:59.790 --> 01:59:01.630
And the John was like that category for me.

01:59:01.710 --> 01:59:01.790
Yeah.

01:59:02.270 --> 01:59:02.910
Small group.

01:59:02.990 --> 01:59:03.470
Yeah.

01:59:03.950 --> 01:59:09.550
And I feel uh imposter syndrome in that uh t till today, in that

01:59:09.870 --> 01:59:15.630
people ask me things and some some things I memorize by wrote, uh the shame, blah blah.

01:59:15.790 --> 01:59:20.190
And some and sometimes I'm asked things I'm out of my comfort zone because I don't know

01:59:20.190 --> 01:59:22.350
things by wrote and I don't know what to say.

01:59:22.590 --> 01:59:28.500
And so I'm like an empty, I have no idea, but I say, okay, I'm an empty

01:59:28.500 --> 01:59:31.620
tube, and let's say what Tubi would say.

01:59:31.700 --> 01:59:31.940
Exactly.

01:59:32.180 --> 01:59:36.420
And something completely not completely incoherent comes out, but it's only because of

01:59:36.420 --> 01:59:36.740
Tubi.

01:59:36.900 --> 01:59:37.540
It's not because of Twitter.

01:59:37.780 --> 01:59:38.500
You have an inner tubi.

01:59:38.740 --> 01:59:38.900
I know.

01:59:38.980 --> 01:59:39.940
I I do the exact same thing.

01:59:40.020 --> 01:59:43.300
I'm I'll often be like, what would John what what's the tubi thing right here?

01:59:43.380 --> 01:59:44.420
Yeah, exactly.

01:59:46.420 --> 01:59:48.020
W W J D, what would John do?

01:59:48.180 --> 01:59:48.420
Exactly.

01:59:48.580 --> 01:59:48.820
Yes.

01:59:48.980 --> 01:59:54.130
Too bad that his phenotype didn't correspond with the greatness of his soul and spirit and

01:59:54.130 --> 01:59:54.450
wisdom.

01:59:54.850 --> 01:59:55.810
Yeah, cool.

01:59:55.970 --> 01:59:58.610
Um, is there anything that we should have asked you, Daniel?

01:59:59.570 --> 02:00:02.050
Yeah, but maybe not for public consumption.

02:00:04.690 --> 02:00:06.530
Well, no, no, no, no.

02:00:07.410 --> 02:00:12.450
I and uh I'm working on stuff on human nature and value in general, so maybe at some point

02:00:12.530 --> 02:00:17.010
uh we can chat, but uh it was delightful to chat with you.

02:00:17.170 --> 02:00:23.060
Uh I was feeling a little bit down about the entropic nature of the world, but uh you

02:00:23.060 --> 02:00:26.180
guys made me feel more fuzzy and nice.

02:00:26.340 --> 02:00:26.820
So that's good.

02:00:27.140 --> 02:00:27.300
Great.

02:00:27.380 --> 02:00:29.140
Reverse entropy for a couple hours.

02:00:29.220 --> 02:00:30.180
That could be our tagline.

02:00:30.580 --> 02:00:30.820
Yeah.

02:00:31.300 --> 02:00:36.340
Thank you so much for your interest and for creating this service to the whoever is

02:00:36.340 --> 02:00:36.980
watching this.

02:00:37.380 --> 02:00:39.620
Yeah, and we and Daniel, we are proud of your work.

02:00:39.700 --> 02:00:45.140
I mean I will say like the the emotion work and just the function, the beautiful

02:00:45.140 --> 02:00:50.410
predictions and the the the rapidity with which you've collected beautiful cross-cultural

02:00:50.410 --> 02:00:54.730
data and the people who are just interested in emotions don't have a dog in the fight of

02:00:54.730 --> 02:00:55.930
like evolution or not.

02:00:56.090 --> 02:01:01.930
There are there's just so many people who I'm meeting that love your emotion work because

02:01:01.930 --> 02:01:06.980
it's just clarifying like, oh, I understand if the function of it is this, I can make

02:01:06.980 --> 02:01:11.380
better predictions, I can understand it, I can understand what conditions elicit, what

02:01:11.380 --> 02:01:12.660
outputs it will generate.

02:01:12.820 --> 02:01:17.700
And I think like you the work you're doing is just such a good example of like at the end

02:01:17.700 --> 02:01:21.540
of the day, the proof's in the pudding and you're just doing a wonderful job like in

02:01:21.700 --> 02:01:27.380
providing insight to these important things like shame and um uh guilt and and pride and

02:01:27.380 --> 02:01:28.420
and and things like that.

02:01:29.930 --> 02:01:31.850
Beautiful is the is the is the correct word.

02:01:32.010 --> 02:01:37.210
Um when when I do look at your work, Daniel, I am sort of confronted with a feeling of

02:01:37.290 --> 02:01:39.290
scientific or epistemic beauty.

02:01:39.370 --> 02:01:45.290
Just the elegance, the parsimony, the the the the powerful effect sizes, the cross

02:01:45.370 --> 02:01:46.730
cultural regularities.

02:01:46.890 --> 02:01:51.690
You you you get the sense that you're you know, you're glimpsing the contours of human

02:01:51.690 --> 02:01:54.730
nature uh in your work and it's it's really beautiful to behold.

02:01:55.050 --> 02:01:55.370
Yeah.

02:01:55.700 --> 02:01:56.820
That's high price.

02:01:56.980 --> 02:02:02.420
If uh one person doesn't find what I do worthless then that I have achieved.

02:02:02.580 --> 02:02:08.420
Uh yeah, that would be completely uh a completely inappropriate low

02:02:08.420 --> 02:02:09.620
bar for the private sector.

02:02:09.780 --> 02:02:15.700
But given that I'm a government employee, I think that's a high uh breakthrough

02:02:15.780 --> 02:02:21.510
and for which I'm very grateful uh to my life givers

02:02:21.750 --> 02:02:26.550
to being lida and also to your company of great intellect and and

02:02:27.510 --> 02:02:33.430
mensch fullness okay uh fantastic well wonderful daniel thank you uh and uh uh thanks

02:02:33.430 --> 02:02:38.070
again for being here uh more fun thank you thank you so much yeah good to see bye bye bye

02:02:42.710 --> 02:02:48.200
wow you're still listening good for you i i'm proud I'm proud of you.

02:02:48.360 --> 02:02:49.320
I'm proud of me.

02:02:49.480 --> 02:02:50.520
I'm proud of us.

02:02:50.760 --> 02:02:56.280
Uh what else can you do to express your pride for having listened to this uh wonderful

02:02:56.280 --> 02:03:02.120
episode and avoid the shame of uh well, I don't know what you'd be ashamed of,

02:03:02.200 --> 02:03:03.720
but what what can you do to support us, Dave?

02:03:03.960 --> 02:03:08.040
Um well what you I mean well before you even do that, I mean you could look we'll put a

02:03:08.040 --> 02:03:10.120
link to Daniel's info in the show notes.

02:03:10.360 --> 02:03:11.430
You can look at Daniel.

02:03:11.830 --> 02:03:14.230
Honestly, every single thing this guy has written is gold.

02:03:14.310 --> 02:03:17.590
So I would recommend just reading through his research catalog.

02:03:17.910 --> 02:03:19.750
Daniel's a beautiful writer, too.

02:03:19.990 --> 02:03:20.390
Oh yeah.

02:03:21.030 --> 02:03:21.750
Just to say, yeah.

02:03:21.830 --> 02:03:22.870
So definitely.

02:03:23.190 --> 02:03:23.510
Yeah.

02:03:23.670 --> 02:03:29.670
Um, but uh, but if and as far as we're concerned, you know, keep listening.

02:03:29.830 --> 02:03:35.480
Um you know, subscribe, like, um, leave a positive review.

02:03:35.960 --> 02:03:38.360
Um, I'm really tell a friend.

02:03:38.680 --> 02:03:39.880
Yeah, that would be really helpful.

02:03:40.040 --> 02:03:43.640
I mean, I think I really do like the idea of shouting it to other people, but don't

02:03:43.720 --> 02:03:44.680
probably don't do that.

02:03:45.000 --> 02:03:45.400
Yeah.

02:03:45.560 --> 02:03:51.000
Um, but yeah, and and and also you can you know contribute to our Patreon account if you

02:03:51.000 --> 02:03:53.960
want to be really generous and feel really proud of yourself.

02:03:54.280 --> 02:03:55.800
Yeah, that sounds good.

02:03:55.960 --> 02:04:01.730
So, and just you know, take a moment to be proud of yourself for something that

02:04:01.730 --> 02:04:03.330
you're gonna do this week.

02:04:03.650 --> 02:04:05.410
Yeah, but don't don't be too proud.

02:04:05.490 --> 02:04:07.090
Don't be arrogant, because that that would be bad.

02:04:07.330 --> 02:04:11.650
Yeah, if you're listening and you're arrogant, don't be, but if you're not arrogant, do it.

02:04:11.970 --> 02:04:15.650
But do people I have a question: do people who are arrogant think they're arrogant?

02:04:15.890 --> 02:04:18.850
Hmm, that might be the topic of a whole new episode.

02:04:19.090 --> 02:04:21.170
Ooh, yeah, maybe we have to have some people back.

02:04:21.330 --> 02:04:21.570
Okay.

02:04:21.650 --> 02:04:24.290
Well, and on that note, have a good week and we'll see you next week.

02:04:24.660 --> 02:04:25.940
See you next week.