WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.520 I'm David Pinsoff. 00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:03.040 I'm David Petrozowski. 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:09.440 And this is Evolutionary Psychology, the podcast where uh actual evolutionary psychology 00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:13.200 is being done by actual evolutionary psychologists. 00:00:29.710 --> 00:00:33.390 David, today we are talking about love. 00:00:34.350 --> 00:00:40.110 Yes, love and the propaganda of love and regrets about love, 00:00:40.270 --> 00:00:45.870 disappointments, really all the emotions that the human is capable of experiencing are 00:00:45.870 --> 00:00:51.470 felt in the context of love or a loving relationship or the end of a loving relationship. 00:00:51.630 --> 00:00:57.500 Uh this was a really sweeping uh vast conversation where we covered all these topics 00:00:57.500 --> 00:00:59.340 and more with uh a really fun guest. 00:00:59.420 --> 00:01:00.460 And who is that guest, Dave? 00:01:00.780 --> 00:01:01.580 Carrie Getz. 00:01:02.060 --> 00:01:03.020 Carrie Getz. 00:01:03.180 --> 00:01:04.860 Whatever Carrie wants, Carrie Getz. 00:01:05.020 --> 00:01:05.660 She made that joke. 00:01:05.740 --> 00:01:09.740 Um reminder of how to pronounce her last name. 00:01:09.980 --> 00:01:10.140 Yes. 00:01:12.300 --> 00:01:12.540 Yeah. 00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:15.180 Uh but this was this was uh such a fun conversation. 00:01:15.340 --> 00:01:20.790 Uh it's my favorite type of conversation where we get to just, you know uh talk about 00:01:20.790 --> 00:01:25.670 whatever topic catches our fancy in the moment and and sort of discover new insights and 00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:27.910 ideas while while the conversation is happening. 00:01:28.070 --> 00:01:30.950 And so um I think you'll have a fun time listening to this conversation. 00:01:31.350 --> 00:01:34.950 Yeah I don't think you'll regret or be disappointed and you might love the episode. 00:01:35.430 --> 00:01:36.950 Yes all of the above. 00:01:37.110 --> 00:01:37.510 All right. 00:01:37.830 --> 00:01:38.470 Enjoy. 00:01:38.790 --> 00:01:44.550 Enjoy Okay I found the record button. 00:01:44.780 --> 00:01:50.700 Today we have Carrie Getz, who is professor at um uh Cal 00:01:50.700 --> 00:01:54.300 State San Bernardino. 00:01:54.540 --> 00:01:55.420 Bernardino. 00:01:55.580 --> 00:02:00.220 I have uh uh I had it on the tip of my tongue, but I wanted to make sure. 00:02:00.780 --> 00:02:03.020 There's a lot of Cal State campuses, it's okay. 00:02:03.260 --> 00:02:03.500 Yeah. 00:02:03.580 --> 00:02:06.300 Um where how big is that campus? 00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:11.490 Oh, we have about 18 to 20,000 students, sort of depending on what enrollment looks like. 00:02:11.650 --> 00:02:12.690 So we're kind of mid-size. 00:02:12.850 --> 00:02:14.930 We're not one of the big giant, giant campuses. 00:02:15.010 --> 00:02:18.370 So like Cal State Fullerton, those are closer to UC size. 00:02:18.450 --> 00:02:21.810 You know, Cal State Long Beach, I think those are like 40, 50. 00:02:22.050 --> 00:02:24.690 Um, but then there's some much smaller Cal State campuses. 00:02:24.770 --> 00:02:25.810 So we're kind of in the middle. 00:02:26.210 --> 00:02:27.490 Well, we can cut all this out. 00:02:27.570 --> 00:02:30.130 UCSB is smaller than Fullerton, I think, by a lot. 00:02:30.210 --> 00:02:30.930 Actually, oh really? 00:02:31.090 --> 00:02:32.050 Yeah, Fullerton's huge. 00:02:32.210 --> 00:02:33.250 Yeah, Fullerton's huge. 00:02:33.330 --> 00:02:33.570 Yeah. 00:02:33.730 --> 00:02:35.010 How big is UCLA, David? 00:02:35.090 --> 00:02:35.570 Do you know? 00:02:35.810 --> 00:02:36.720 I have no idea. 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:39.200 It's at le it's at least one. 00:02:41.440 --> 00:02:47.360 Um so uh we are here on a podcast about evolutionary psychology, so 00:02:47.440 --> 00:02:48.960 I guess we should start talking about that. 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:49.840 I guess. 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:50.160 Okay. 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:51.040 Yeah, I guess. 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:51.680 What is that thing? 00:02:51.760 --> 00:02:52.800 What is that anyway? 00:02:52.880 --> 00:02:53.200 I don't know. 00:02:53.440 --> 00:02:56.080 Um I wanna I want to actually carry, you can choose. 00:02:56.160 --> 00:02:57.280 There's two options for you. 00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:58.720 So choose your own adventure. 00:02:58.880 --> 00:03:04.880 Um uh either your research or mating psychology and its state in 00:03:04.880 --> 00:03:05.600 Evpsych. 00:03:06.170 --> 00:03:06.490 Oh. 00:03:07.530 --> 00:03:10.090 I mean, we can weave between them. 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:10.730 Yeah. 00:03:10.970 --> 00:03:16.970 Um, but um, I like the bigger picture starting point, the, you know, mating psychology, 00:03:17.050 --> 00:03:18.090 you know, and it's yeah. 00:03:18.650 --> 00:03:18.890 You know. 00:03:19.290 --> 00:03:22.970 Let me let me let me tee this up a little bit and then you can completely reject it like a 00:03:22.970 --> 00:03:27.130 politician if you want and answer the question you wish you had been asked, which is um we 00:03:27.130 --> 00:03:31.940 had Dan Conroy Beam on, and he is the he's really there's there hasn't been a lot of mating 00:03:32.180 --> 00:03:33.620 people on the this. 00:03:34.020 --> 00:03:38.660 And I think a lot of people when they come to EpSec, they come about it through the mating 00:03:38.660 --> 00:03:41.060 stuff, especially if they take it like an undergrad class. 00:03:41.220 --> 00:03:45.780 And I think a lot of people who are outside of Ev Psych think about um the mating stuff. 00:03:45.860 --> 00:03:49.220 And if you look online, you see a lot of stuff about mating. 00:03:49.380 --> 00:03:53.540 Um and if you hear other people talking about evolutionary psychology, it's often about 00:03:53.540 --> 00:03:53.940 mating. 00:03:54.340 --> 00:03:54.580 Right. 00:03:54.690 --> 00:04:00.370 um yeah what is your take on that either sort of 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:06.370 socially or scientifically and what's your take on it um in terms of like has that been 00:04:06.450 --> 00:04:12.130 is that good for the science yeah what do you think yeah um i i my 00:04:12.130 --> 00:04:17.810 thoughts on this uh question i think go back and forth all the time um there's 00:04:17.810 --> 00:04:22.540 times when i think we can really highlight the contributions right, that 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:29.020 research on human mating from an evolutionary perspective have made, you know, 00:04:29.180 --> 00:04:34.460 in general to psychological science and understanding of human nature and human behavior 00:04:34.460 --> 00:04:35.420 and cognition. 00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:41.340 And then also for getting evolutionary psychology out there as a perspective and an 00:04:41.340 --> 00:04:44.940 important approach that people can be taking to these questions. 00:04:45.340 --> 00:04:47.260 But then, you know, there's the flip side of that. 00:04:47.340 --> 00:04:49.580 It's it's in some ways it's to our own detriment. 00:04:49.740 --> 00:04:55.550 Um, it's in many ways because the questions of human mating are in some way 00:04:55.630 --> 00:05:00.110 the first introduction or sometimes sort of the poster child for evolutionary psychology, 00:05:00.270 --> 00:05:03.070 it is seen as that's what evolutionary psychology is. 00:05:03.230 --> 00:05:06.030 It is these questions about human mating. 00:05:06.430 --> 00:05:12.430 Uh, many of them that have um are about um hypothesizing about and demonstrating sex 00:05:12.430 --> 00:05:13.070 differences. 00:05:13.550 --> 00:05:19.340 Uh, and and that you know, the field for many people is that um, or their perception of the 00:05:19.340 --> 00:05:20.300 field is that. 00:05:20.460 --> 00:05:26.460 Uh, and even when I teach, right, um, I actually, you know, as I've gone on through 00:05:26.460 --> 00:05:31.980 time, have tried to structure my classes to really just de-emphasize uh that work. 00:05:32.540 --> 00:05:37.660 And it's because I'm taking the perspective of thinking about evolutionary psychology as 00:05:37.740 --> 00:05:40.780 you know, all the different types of questions it can answer, and thinking about human 00:05:40.780 --> 00:05:46.460 nature in totality and all the different domains, you know, there is research in. 00:05:46.700 --> 00:05:52.550 But if I was taking the perspective of trying to teach students about um sort of like 00:05:52.630 --> 00:05:55.670 the the research into evolutionary psychology proportionally, right? 00:05:55.910 --> 00:06:00.790 If if I was going to spend the same proportion in class as the proportion of published 00:06:00.790 --> 00:06:01.350 literature, right? 00:06:01.430 --> 00:06:06.470 Then yeah, we might spend 50% of the time on mating studies because there's just a lot of 00:06:06.470 --> 00:06:09.110 studies out there that focus on that. 00:06:09.350 --> 00:06:14.000 Um, and I think it also I've talked a lot. 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.280 Um this is your you can talk as much as you want. 00:06:17.760 --> 00:06:20.160 I it's the way to our own detriment, right? 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:26.080 Is that I think we're um because it's the focus there, it it, you know, it we don't 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:30.880 there's so many other important questions that evolutionary psychologists are working on 00:06:30.880 --> 00:06:36.590 that aren't in that domain and they aren't seen or understood uh or known as 00:06:36.590 --> 00:06:39.150 part of this discipline and part of this perspective. 00:06:39.230 --> 00:06:41.230 Uh, and that's one of the the issues. 00:06:41.710 --> 00:06:47.230 Um, I think also because it's so those findings, some of them can be flashy or 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:53.070 eye-catching, they can be easily misinterpreted, uh, they can be 00:06:53.390 --> 00:06:58.340 then I think used by people in ways that aren't necessarily what the researcher was 00:06:58.340 --> 00:07:02.020 intending or what the researcher would have concluded from their own research. 00:07:02.420 --> 00:07:04.820 And that causes another problem for us. 00:07:04.900 --> 00:07:10.820 Um, our big our EPPR problem in many cases comes, I think, from mating research, 00:07:10.980 --> 00:07:11.220 right? 00:07:11.460 --> 00:07:14.660 So, so it's I absolutely am a mating researcher. 00:07:14.740 --> 00:07:15.620 It's what I do, right? 00:07:15.780 --> 00:07:21.290 I'm like, I'm, you know, trying to answer these questions, but at the same time, I I very 00:07:21.290 --> 00:07:26.730 much recognize I think some of the problems it's caused for us as a as a science. 00:07:28.090 --> 00:07:28.730 Yeah. 00:07:29.050 --> 00:07:29.290 Yeah. 00:07:29.450 --> 00:07:34.650 I mean, I I I think I I would be inclined to agree with uh everything you said. 00:07:34.730 --> 00:07:39.530 Um I think in a in addition to the overemphasis on mating in general, even within the 00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:44.500 category of mating, I feel like there's a lopsided focus on certain topics to the detriment 00:07:44.500 --> 00:07:45.300 of other topics. 00:07:45.460 --> 00:07:50.580 So within the field of mating psychology, uh, I think there's an overemphasis on research 00:07:50.580 --> 00:07:55.620 on sex differences and in particular research on attraction and on the early stages of a 00:07:55.620 --> 00:08:00.420 relationship, as opposed to the long uh middle part of a relationship and all of the 00:08:00.420 --> 00:08:04.820 cooperative uh dynamics and conflicts that might arise, and maintaining a relationship, 00:08:04.900 --> 00:08:09.370 which is really hard, um, Deciding whether you want to stay in it or leave it. 00:08:09.930 --> 00:08:14.010 Eventually, you know, rearing offspring, which is the ultimate purpose for our 00:08:14.010 --> 00:08:19.530 relationships, there's very little research on parenting despite its outsized impact on our 00:08:19.530 --> 00:08:20.250 fitness. 00:08:20.650 --> 00:08:26.090 And so I think even within the field of mating psychology, there's a lopsided focus that's 00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:29.450 that's not quite encompassing the full human experience. 00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:30.730 Yeah. 00:08:30.810 --> 00:08:36.320 And, you know, everywhere in psychology, there's uh criticisms of our uh 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:38.080 especially in psychology, right? 00:08:38.160 --> 00:08:39.920 That we, you know, study undergrads, right? 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:43.920 But I think this is a particular issue for mating research, right? 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:48.160 Especially the undergrads we study, you know, if we're if a lot of research is coming from 00:08:48.160 --> 00:08:49.600 very traditional undergraduates. 00:08:49.680 --> 00:08:55.680 So, you know, mean age of 20 and they don't have kids, uh, and they're, you know, 00:08:55.760 --> 00:08:59.840 away from home and making these decisions with, you know, no input from anybody, um, you 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:02.480 know, what the outputs of those decisions, right? 00:09:02.560 --> 00:09:04.230 Um, they they tell us something, right? 00:09:04.390 --> 00:09:05.750 They absolutely tell us something, right? 00:09:05.830 --> 00:09:07.190 That is valuable data. 00:09:07.350 --> 00:09:12.470 Um, but the extent to which we've then backtracked that to say, well, oh, this is you know, 00:09:12.630 --> 00:09:18.550 telling us these specific things about human nature is a little questionable because we 00:09:18.550 --> 00:09:22.070 haven't captured a bunch of this other stuff related to human mating. 00:09:22.150 --> 00:09:27.670 Uh, and stuff that probably would have described the mating lives of most people through 00:09:27.670 --> 00:09:28.230 humanity. 00:09:28.310 --> 00:09:31.900 They they most of the time when making mating decisions, they probably already would have 00:09:31.900 --> 00:09:32.700 had kids. 00:09:32.940 --> 00:09:38.620 Um, they, you know, would be going, uh, you know, uh navigating, staying or leaving a 00:09:38.620 --> 00:09:43.820 relationship or finding a new partner after uh death or splitting up or you know, all these 00:09:43.820 --> 00:09:49.020 different sorts of things later in life that aren't captured by many of our studies on on 00:09:49.020 --> 00:09:52.620 mating and attraction, even the ones on attraction and the ones on preferences and the ones 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:58.010 that are on sex differences that we have don't uh get at all of that that stuff that you 00:09:58.010 --> 00:10:02.410 just talked about, which if we're thinking about mating across the lifetime, a larger 00:10:02.410 --> 00:10:05.850 proportion of your mating decisions would have made been made in those contexts. 00:10:05.930 --> 00:10:10.890 Um and we aren't we aren't studying those um as much as as we could be. 00:10:11.130 --> 00:10:12.970 Yeah, I think those are hard to study too. 00:10:13.050 --> 00:10:15.530 I mean I was just yeah for a completely different reason. 00:10:15.690 --> 00:10:19.530 It's so funny if you poke on anything like everything you could the whole universe is in 00:10:19.530 --> 00:10:20.490 mating psychology. 00:10:20.570 --> 00:10:25.900 Like the whole problem with i as as we've talked about in other episodes, and David, I 00:10:25.900 --> 00:10:31.820 think you mentioned this, is that um if you count publications um and that's your 00:10:31.820 --> 00:10:36.220 criteria for people sort of being good scientists, then you sort of you just get what's 00:10:36.220 --> 00:10:38.620 easy to measure and what's the easiest thing to measure. 00:10:38.700 --> 00:10:43.180 You know, you don't go out and actually measure like real world families or things, right? 00:10:43.260 --> 00:10:44.540 Unless you're an anthropologist. 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:45.900 So you have undergrads. 00:10:45.980 --> 00:10:51.510 You're you're also, I mean, the other thing too is you're also uh the consumers of our 00:10:51.510 --> 00:10:53.110 science are also undergrads. 00:10:53.190 --> 00:10:57.190 So it's even worse because we're not teaching 40 year olds or 80-year-olds. 00:10:57.270 --> 00:10:59.350 We're not studying 40-year-olds and 80-year-olds. 00:10:59.430 --> 00:11:05.430 We're both studying, but also teaching early, like late teenagers and early 20-year-olds 00:11:05.590 --> 00:11:09.990 who are kind of weird in that they're not parents yet because of our very, very late um 00:11:10.150 --> 00:11:15.510 altrucial or you know, we're very we're altrucial to very late um in this culture. 00:11:15.670 --> 00:11:21.440 Um and so uh yeah, I think it's it's an example of it's a 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:26.800 combination of where our science happens to be done that we're teaching and uh 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:28.720 around these younger kids. 00:11:28.880 --> 00:11:34.800 But it's also I think a problem of if you have to just collect a lot of data um and and 00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:40.000 crank out a lot of papers, then yeah, you're not gonna be going far afield from you know 00:11:40.160 --> 00:11:42.160 who's just down the hall, basically. 00:11:42.970 --> 00:11:43.690 Absolutely. 00:11:43.850 --> 00:11:48.410 The incentive structures of our science play a role here. 00:11:48.970 --> 00:11:53.050 Because yeah, that, you know, these other types of things, it's it's it's hard data to get 00:11:53.130 --> 00:11:54.330 and it's complicated. 00:11:54.410 --> 00:11:56.650 Um, all of those different pieces, right? 00:11:56.730 --> 00:12:02.730 If you if you can have it, you know, isolated down to um, you know, these folks who 00:12:02.730 --> 00:12:04.970 don't vary a lot on certain dimensions, right? 00:12:05.130 --> 00:12:09.940 Yeah, you can get at certain things more purely, but that not varying on those other 00:12:09.940 --> 00:12:11.540 dimensions might really matter. 00:12:11.940 --> 00:12:13.540 Um, but on the plus side, right? 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:18.260 So this is one of the the great things about you know evolutionary social sciences is that 00:12:18.260 --> 00:12:22.260 we aren't just the you know psychologists here studying undergrads, right? 00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:27.220 Um, so I think about the work from you know Brooks Shelza and like Elizabeth Pillsworth and 00:12:27.300 --> 00:12:32.020 and people who I think about as part of our broader evolutionary social science community 00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:37.830 who who look at these similar questions in folks who are very different than 00:12:37.990 --> 00:12:40.150 than the ones that I am often studying. 00:12:41.030 --> 00:12:45.510 And I think that's, you know, that's that's some of the power of our field, is that that is 00:12:45.510 --> 00:12:46.070 part of it. 00:12:46.470 --> 00:12:50.710 I think when I when I teach undergrads, it's one of the, you know, I teach an evolutionary 00:12:50.710 --> 00:12:54.630 psychology class in a psychology department in a psychology major. 00:12:54.710 --> 00:13:00.460 It's it's mostly psych majors taking the class and you know, trying to explain to them, 00:13:00.540 --> 00:13:05.100 like, well, we're called evolutionary psychology, but but to me, this evidence from this 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:10.860 anthropologist and this study is more informative in my work and speaks 00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:16.540 more and is more similar to what I do than this research that came from this other person 00:13:16.620 --> 00:13:20.780 who's also called a psychologist who's who's studying attraction or something, right? 00:13:20.860 --> 00:13:23.500 From a social psychology perspective or something. 00:13:23.750 --> 00:13:28.870 Um, and and trying to get that across about how all of I I see that as part of my 00:13:29.670 --> 00:13:31.670 um my discipline, right? 00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:33.830 Um, is I think unique for them. 00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:37.830 I I think that's that's different than what they uh see in some of the other classes that 00:13:37.830 --> 00:13:38.470 they'll take. 00:13:38.710 --> 00:13:38.950 Yeah. 00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:43.670 And I think too, I mean, you know, I study undergrads, you study undergrads. 00:13:43.750 --> 00:13:46.230 David's, well, David, I don't know, do you study undergrad? 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:48.600 Occasionally, I guess. 00:13:49.400 --> 00:13:49.640 No, no. 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:52.680 I mean, I don't mean like I just mean, you know, I think you're typical participants of 00:13:52.680 --> 00:13:52.760 that. 00:13:53.160 --> 00:13:56.840 And I think like it's also easy because we're academics and we like to self-flagellate. 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:02.840 Like there's, and as you said, Carrie, um, there's a lot of really important work 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:08.680 done in insights on undergraduate or 20 year old or early mating psychology. 00:14:08.760 --> 00:14:10.520 And that just wouldn't exist without this approach. 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:15.030 And so I don't, I don't think we should uh throw that baby out with the bathwater either, 00:14:15.110 --> 00:14:15.430 for sure. 00:14:15.510 --> 00:14:17.270 And I think we should be very proud of that. 00:14:17.510 --> 00:14:23.270 And maybe this is getting into a little bit of your research, but what um you mentioned, 00:14:23.350 --> 00:14:28.230 you know, this thing that this anthropologist studied, what to your mind is sort of the 00:14:28.230 --> 00:14:33.590 core baby um of the uh and not the bathwater of the mating 00:14:33.590 --> 00:14:34.390 literature. 00:14:34.470 --> 00:14:40.310 Um, and sort of if you could wave a magic wand and sort of have people actually understand 00:14:40.310 --> 00:14:45.900 what it is that you're trying to do um in the mating research, you know, what would 00:14:46.060 --> 00:14:46.940 what is that? 00:14:47.100 --> 00:14:52.700 Um, you know, is it is it for example, you know, that it's not just flashy effects, but 00:14:52.700 --> 00:14:56.060 it's actually sort of design mindedness or or you know, that kind of thing? 00:14:56.220 --> 00:14:59.500 Like what what do you think what do you think people aren't getting? 00:14:59.660 --> 00:15:03.420 And if you could just sort of like pick 'em up by the scruff of the collar and be like, you 00:15:03.420 --> 00:15:07.500 stupid YouTube podcaster, don't do this, do this other thing. 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:09.340 What's that other thing they should be doing? 00:15:09.580 --> 00:15:12.670 If they're listening, if they're playing or not, but maybe they're listening. 00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:14.510 Tell them what to do. 00:15:16.270 --> 00:15:22.030 Um it's certainly it's the the design-mindedness. 00:15:22.190 --> 00:15:27.390 Um, it's it's at the heart of it the you know, thinking of the mind as this collection of 00:15:27.390 --> 00:15:28.750 adaptations, right? 00:15:29.390 --> 00:15:35.120 And and that these decisions or the outputs that we observe, right? 00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:40.960 The feelings we feel, the things we're attracted to, the motivations we might experience, 00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:41.280 right? 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.320 Uh in the mating realm, but of course in all the other realms, but at least in the mating 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:45.680 realm, which are really important to us. 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.440 We spend a lot of time thinking about these things and talking about these things to each 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:55.040 other, um, about, you know, who we're interested in and what we like and uh our 00:15:55.040 --> 00:15:56.800 relationships and how we feel about them. 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.530 Those occupy a lot of our conscious thought, right? 00:15:59.690 --> 00:16:04.410 Um, and so it's so important for that reason because it occupies so much of our conscious 00:16:04.410 --> 00:16:04.970 thought. 00:16:05.130 --> 00:16:11.050 Um, but I think the the the biggest thing I when I teach a lot of this 00:16:11.050 --> 00:16:16.890 stuff for students and and when I talk about in my research, um, is how much of the what is 00:16:16.890 --> 00:16:21.130 happening under the hood to result in that stuff that we're conscious of is stuff that 00:16:21.130 --> 00:16:22.890 we're not consciously aware of, right? 00:16:23.050 --> 00:16:28.820 That we don't have, um, and we're probably we're designed probably to not have good access 00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:33.620 to what's the information that we're actually taking in and how that information is being 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:39.460 weighted or toggled uh or used by our mind to then produce that outward feeling of, oh, 00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:40.900 I think that person's hot, right? 00:16:41.060 --> 00:16:45.460 Or oh, I don't want to, you know, that's not the kind of person that I would want to be 00:16:45.460 --> 00:16:45.620 with. 00:16:45.780 --> 00:16:50.710 Um, and actually going on under there is stuff that we probably we don't have access to. 00:16:50.790 --> 00:16:53.190 Uh and we might slap explanations on top of it. 00:16:53.350 --> 00:16:55.910 Oh, I like this person for this reason, right? 00:16:56.230 --> 00:17:01.670 But those those are explanations that might not map on to the actual functional 00:17:01.670 --> 00:17:05.670 reality of what is leading to the desire, right? 00:17:05.910 --> 00:17:10.520 And I think Communicating that 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:16.600 and helping people understand that, I think is probably one of the most important things 00:17:16.600 --> 00:17:18.040 for our meeting research. 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:24.520 Because a lot of the misconceptions come from the idea that if we're 00:17:24.520 --> 00:17:29.240 arguing there's some sex difference for functional reasons, is that people have conscious 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:32.750 access to the the that functional reason. 00:17:32.830 --> 00:17:36.510 And then that they're consciously doing that for that functional reason, right? 00:17:36.750 --> 00:17:41.550 And I think that's a lot of where the misinformation and misconceptions about mating 00:17:41.630 --> 00:17:45.230 research in evolutionary psychology come from, not appreciating that distinction. 00:17:46.190 --> 00:17:46.430 Yeah. 00:17:46.590 --> 00:17:51.870 So I hear what I'm hearing you say is there's really two things that Evpsych has done. 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:57.820 Number one is it's provided data or knowledge about something people care about a 00:17:57.820 --> 00:17:59.100 lot, which is mating. 00:17:59.260 --> 00:18:02.460 And that really was very absent, right, from the literature. 00:18:02.620 --> 00:18:07.660 I mean, it's sort of there's this trope that a lot of people want to go into psychology and 00:18:07.660 --> 00:18:13.580 they read a textbook and they think it's going to be about jealousy and, you know, lust 00:18:13.900 --> 00:18:17.500 and disappointment and envy and jealousy. 00:18:17.580 --> 00:18:20.370 And it's starting to be, but it's usually about like perception. 00:18:20.450 --> 00:18:21.890 No, no offense to perception. 00:18:22.050 --> 00:18:24.450 But you know, it's about perception and reasoning and logic. 00:18:24.530 --> 00:18:27.570 And you're like, where, where is my experience as a human being? 00:18:27.730 --> 00:18:31.890 And I think like one of the things I'm hearing you say is like the one of the really uh 00:18:32.130 --> 00:18:36.770 important things has been to study that stuff, but not in a way that's just sort of like 00:18:36.770 --> 00:18:42.290 cataloging people's experiences, but but genuinely a science of here are actual 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:46.120 evolved systems and mechanisms and a way to sort of study this stuff. 00:18:46.280 --> 00:18:52.120 But then the other thing you're saying is that this thing that most of us go 00:18:52.120 --> 00:18:57.960 through when we're trained, which is to really, and it's a multi-year process, it was for 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.960 me, is to understand that the way we naturally think about ourselves, which is sort of like 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:05.470 there's a little person in the head, and we consciously sort of make our decisions. 00:19:05.550 --> 00:19:11.310 And maybe there's some non-conscious effects that sort of make me want to have a piece of 00:19:11.310 --> 00:19:15.310 chocolate or, you know, say, oh, I should sleep with this person even though I don't want 00:19:15.310 --> 00:19:15.550 to. 00:19:15.790 --> 00:19:18.750 You know, those little things poking on the little person in us. 00:19:18.830 --> 00:19:20.830 But otherwise, that's sort of the model. 00:19:21.230 --> 00:19:26.920 And the thing that we get trained out of is that no, all of us is a mechanical system. 00:19:27.320 --> 00:19:31.800 There's a software level description of you and I and the little person in our head. 00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:37.480 And then just as you said, then therefore, when we're talking about um 00:19:37.800 --> 00:19:43.560 why uh the evolved psychology of mating is the way it is, we're not talking about it being 00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:45.960 inevitable, we're not talking about being conscious or not. 00:19:46.040 --> 00:19:48.120 We're just saying, like, this is the way it works. 00:19:48.360 --> 00:19:53.130 And it's sort of we're agnostic as to whether or not or we might have a principal reason to 00:19:53.130 --> 00:19:54.890 suspect people aren't aware of it. 00:19:55.050 --> 00:19:58.490 So it's a very different um sort of way of thinking. 00:19:58.570 --> 00:20:03.290 And if you don't have that way of thinking, then it sounds like people might sort of blame 00:20:03.290 --> 00:20:09.210 people um for the way that they're built, or I don't know, what what what to what do you 00:20:09.210 --> 00:20:12.090 think is the consequence of giving thinking it's conscious? 00:20:12.170 --> 00:20:14.970 Is that what um there's blame people for the way they're built. 00:20:15.050 --> 00:20:20.720 There's also the attaching sort of um to the extent that there's um 00:20:21.840 --> 00:20:24.320 so let's say it's sex differences in meat preferences. 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:25.520 We'll pick the big one. 00:20:25.760 --> 00:20:31.600 Um right that uh oh okay you know that if if if men 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.360 place a greater premium on physical attractiveness, well then they're just shallow, right? 00:20:35.600 --> 00:20:38.800 Or if women place a greater premium on resources, well then they're a bunch of gold 00:20:38.800 --> 00:20:39.600 diggers, right? 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:46.090 So it's that sort of um value judgment, I guess, that is 00:20:46.090 --> 00:20:52.010 applied to some of that because the thinking behind those preferences is, oh, 00:20:52.170 --> 00:20:56.250 that you're functionally can you're consciously conniving about those, right? 00:20:56.410 --> 00:21:00.490 Oh, well, I need this or I want that, you know, for these reasons, right? 00:21:00.730 --> 00:21:04.960 And that's what then leads to that kind of value judgment about those differences. 00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:06.320 And that's just a sex difference. 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.240 It's the big sex differences example. 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.320 But you could think of a lot of this for for lots of mating psychology in in the world of 00:21:12.320 --> 00:21:13.280 jealousy, right? 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:16.720 Uh in the world of, you know, anything right that we might think about. 00:21:16.800 --> 00:21:22.800 Um that it it it allows for that as opposed to if you're having that more 00:21:22.800 --> 00:21:26.720 complex way of thinking about it, you can appreciate when there's those differences or when 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:31.600 we might predict people will feel a certain way or another way without uh needing to then 00:21:31.600 --> 00:21:32.960 attach that value judgment to it. 00:21:33.710 --> 00:21:34.030 Yeah. 00:21:35.070 --> 00:21:35.790 It's interesting. 00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:41.630 Um I I certainly buy this this logic that there's a lot of instinct blindness where we 00:21:41.630 --> 00:21:46.430 we're not fully aware of all the complex computations that are going on underneath the hood 00:21:46.510 --> 00:21:50.030 before we even feel something like attraction or jealousy. 00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:55.470 But it seems to me that there's a there's a disconnect between other forms of instinct 00:21:55.470 --> 00:21:58.270 blindness and the instinct blindness related to mating. 00:21:58.510 --> 00:22:03.080 So if if I'm if I'm talking about, say, perception or proprioception or the way I balance, 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:07.400 you could you could really delve into all the complex computations in my vestibular system 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:10.840 and really blow my mind about you know all the complexity there. 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:12.040 And I'm totally not aware of it. 00:22:12.120 --> 00:22:15.160 I'm just walking around and effortlessly balancing, but there are like these, you know, 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:19.400 hundreds of tiny computers in my head that are just registering my position in space, and 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:19.960 it's amazing. 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.400 And when you tell me that, I'm not going to feel threatened or uncomfortable, right? 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.240 I might even be interested. 00:22:25.550 --> 00:22:30.350 But as soon as you start to get under the hood of my attractions, my mating psychology, 00:22:30.510 --> 00:22:33.630 then all of a sudden there is a sense of threat there. 00:22:33.870 --> 00:22:38.910 Because there it's not merely that we don't have access to it, it's that we often have 00:22:38.910 --> 00:22:41.950 strategic reasons to actually conceal it. 00:22:42.110 --> 00:22:45.070 Um, because mating is a zero-sum game. 00:22:45.230 --> 00:22:48.910 You know, if two people mate with each other, those people are not available to be mated 00:22:48.910 --> 00:22:49.860 with to other people. 00:22:50.020 --> 00:22:53.860 And so because of this zero-sumness and this competitiveness and this rivalry in the mating 00:22:53.860 --> 00:22:57.860 domain, and also even within partners, there's the the temptation to defect in the 00:22:57.860 --> 00:23:03.460 prisoner's dilemma, um, uh to, you know, d take advantage of the other party's investment. 00:23:03.540 --> 00:23:09.380 Um uh uh so there are all these potential conflicts and you may not want to disclose 00:23:09.450 --> 00:23:13.130 your attractions, or if you're, you know, attracted to someone else, if you're in a 00:23:13.130 --> 00:23:16.890 relationship, or or what it is about the person that attracted you to them, that could be 00:23:16.890 --> 00:23:17.370 threatening. 00:23:17.450 --> 00:23:21.290 If it's something that, you know, is not going to last a long time, uh, you might not want 00:23:21.290 --> 00:23:22.330 to disclose that to the person. 00:23:22.410 --> 00:23:26.570 You might want to make them think that you're going to be in it for the long haul uh when 00:23:26.570 --> 00:23:27.530 you might not be. 00:23:27.770 --> 00:23:33.160 And so because of there are all these um sort of undesirable or 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:35.160 strategic things that are happening under the hood. 00:23:35.320 --> 00:23:38.760 When you start to poke at them and reveal them, people get really uncomfortable. 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:44.440 And so I'm I'm wondering if if you buy that logic that there's just there's more to conceal 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:48.200 in the mating domain than there is in, say, proprioception. 00:23:48.600 --> 00:23:52.870 Um and and if and if that's maybe underlying some of this uh 00:23:53.830 --> 00:23:55.990 reaction to evolutionary psychology. 00:23:56.470 --> 00:23:57.350 I think I think you're right. 00:23:57.430 --> 00:23:58.710 That that sounds right to me. 00:23:58.790 --> 00:24:03.030 Um, certainly, and that's true for any psychology that's regulating sort of cooperative 00:24:03.030 --> 00:24:04.630 relationships in general, right? 00:24:04.790 --> 00:24:08.950 Um, more so than than right if you're thinking proprioception or some of those basic 00:24:08.950 --> 00:24:12.630 perception things, you know, the calculus my mind is doing to catch a ball, right? 00:24:12.790 --> 00:24:15.670 Like, cool, my mind's doing calculus, sweet, right? 00:24:15.830 --> 00:24:21.460 But there's no there's no threat there versus oh, um, you know, you ignored that person. 00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:25.300 Um, oh, well, that's because you know they had already offended somebody. 00:24:25.380 --> 00:24:28.100 I'm pretty sure they were an offensive person and that's why I ignored them. 00:24:28.260 --> 00:24:32.500 Not because there's some calculation going on that it would not benefit me to interact with 00:24:32.500 --> 00:24:33.620 that person and I, right? 00:24:34.100 --> 00:24:36.980 Um, so there's the the broader any type of cooperative relationship. 00:24:37.060 --> 00:24:41.460 Um I think this statement's true for, but then mating relationships are you know like the 00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:43.610 ultimate cooperative relationship. 00:24:43.770 --> 00:24:48.090 Um and there's some thinking I've been doing along those lines lately of like that 00:24:48.090 --> 00:24:52.490 dimension of cooperative relationships and really thinking a lot about mating relationships 00:24:52.650 --> 00:24:57.210 as that, you know, because they've got the extra layers of shared investments if there's 00:24:57.210 --> 00:24:58.090 offspring, right? 00:24:58.330 --> 00:25:02.250 And in, you know, in our modern environment, especially all the other shared investments 00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:04.090 that happen in mating relationships, right? 00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:08.080 You know, these resource investments that are incredibly costly, buying house together, 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:08.320 right? 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:13.040 You're doing all these things that um you're you're so intertwined. 00:25:13.280 --> 00:25:19.040 Um uh but yeah and so especially in those relationships right that the extent to 00:25:19.040 --> 00:25:24.720 which uh there would be motivation to do anything that would be beneficial to you but 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:29.330 costly to the other person right um needs to be hidden, right? 00:25:29.650 --> 00:25:31.650 It's it benefits you for it to be hidden. 00:25:32.130 --> 00:25:35.890 And to to them and then maybe to yourself also. 00:25:35.970 --> 00:25:39.490 And so the layers of explanation that you might have that you're conscious you have 00:25:39.490 --> 00:25:43.490 conscious access to help help protect that, right? 00:25:43.890 --> 00:25:49.570 And yes, the suggestion then that there is that stuff under the hood that is providing the, 00:25:49.650 --> 00:25:54.340 you know, is the that that functional layer is is threatening right because if that gets 00:25:54.340 --> 00:25:59.220 revealed right or if i start to have knowledge of it and i start to then question well what 00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:04.980 are my own motives right how much might that bleed through um what does that say then about 00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:10.740 how i can represent myself as as a person right um and my my thoughts about the kind of 00:26:10.740 --> 00:26:16.580 person I am um and so yeah I I I your thoughts make sense to me right 00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:22.030 that that's could be what's going on I don't know that I've seen anybody write it that way. 00:26:23.070 --> 00:26:23.870 That's interesting. 00:26:23.950 --> 00:26:24.110 Yeah. 00:26:24.510 --> 00:26:27.870 Well, can I uh further so this is something I've been thinking about. 00:26:27.950 --> 00:26:33.310 Uh uh I've been thinking about in what circumstances uh deception can be mutually 00:26:33.310 --> 00:26:35.950 beneficial to both the deceiver and the deceived. 00:26:36.190 --> 00:26:42.110 Um and it seems to me that um romantic relationships might be one such case where something 00:26:42.110 --> 00:26:47.360 that is not quite true can nevertheless be beneficial for both parties to believe. 00:26:47.520 --> 00:26:52.480 So if someone's mate value, uh if a big part of a person's mate value is how committed they 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.200 are to you, if how uh you know how much they're into you and how much they're committed to 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:02.800 you for the long haul, um, and then that then that means that if I falsely 00:27:02.800 --> 00:27:07.600 broadcast a huge amount of commitment, that could increase your commitment to me and 00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:09.600 thereby increase your mate value to me. 00:27:09.760 --> 00:27:13.710 Uh And you can get into kind of a positive feedback loop there where you can start out with 00:27:13.710 --> 00:27:18.190 a lie like, I can say falsely that I'm, you know, you're you're the most beautiful person 00:27:18.190 --> 00:27:20.910 in the world, everyone else is hideous by comparison. 00:27:21.070 --> 00:27:24.670 You know, there's just something uniquely about you that no one could ever replace. 00:27:24.750 --> 00:27:29.230 And uh I'm gonna be with you until the end of time, no matter what happens, you know, even 00:27:29.230 --> 00:27:32.910 if you uh become physically deformed or if you lose all your money, whatever. 00:27:33.070 --> 00:27:36.000 And we say these things, and they're false to a certain extent. 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.280 Like our mating psychology is more strategic than that. 00:27:39.520 --> 00:27:45.280 Um, but because they create this positive feedback loop where it causes you to 00:27:45.280 --> 00:27:48.560 increase your commitment to me, which causes me to increase my commitment to you, which 00:27:48.560 --> 00:27:53.680 causes you to increase your commitment to me, we can sort of get into a symbiotic uh myth 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:54.240 together. 00:27:54.320 --> 00:27:59.680 Uh and if we work together to build that myth, it actually does, you know, strengthen our 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:00.480 relationship. 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:06.270 Uh and so there's there's something kind of paradoxical about you know commitment where you 00:28:06.270 --> 00:28:07.710 kind of have to fake it till you make it. 00:28:07.790 --> 00:28:07.950 Yep. 00:28:08.110 --> 00:28:12.990 Or or at least there might be like a kernel of of delusion at the heart of love. 00:28:13.470 --> 00:28:18.190 Um and it may be that when once we start to get under the hood of that delusion, it it can 00:28:18.190 --> 00:28:18.990 be threatening. 00:28:19.470 --> 00:28:20.190 Absolutely. 00:28:20.350 --> 00:28:23.390 Um, you know, and I think it's interesting, you know, data on things like arranged 00:28:23.390 --> 00:28:29.280 marriages, yeah, uh where you know it's explicit that the this commitment 00:28:29.280 --> 00:28:33.440 has been made prior to there being sort of these ideas of love, right? 00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:35.120 Or those those feelings there. 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.640 But but but people have, you know, they've they've made that decision that this is where 00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:40.640 I'm doing this investment, right? 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:44.800 Um, and then you see, right, if you look at the data on that, there's plenty of those 00:28:44.800 --> 00:28:47.760 marriages that end up quite, you know, successful and happy, right? 00:28:47.840 --> 00:28:49.200 There's ones that don't, right? 00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:53.090 But it's it's and and the process you're talking about here, it's it's a very kind of 00:28:53.090 --> 00:28:54.450 explicit version of that, right? 00:28:54.530 --> 00:28:58.290 It's like we've decided that we're going, we're making this commitment, we're going to do 00:28:58.290 --> 00:29:02.450 this investment, and then that builds from there, um, which is you know the opposite 00:29:02.450 --> 00:29:08.050 direction from I think what many uh you know folks sort of in in you know the ontogeny we 00:29:08.050 --> 00:29:09.090 all developed in, right? 00:29:09.170 --> 00:29:12.930 Uh think of it as, as the, you know, falling in love with somebody first and then making 00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:14.050 those commitments. 00:29:14.210 --> 00:29:19.820 Um, but I think the the fake it till you make it idea, and I, you know, I I get the 00:29:19.820 --> 00:29:25.420 feeling from some people I've talked to in sort of the relationships counseling world who 00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:28.140 are not evolutionarily informed really. 00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:34.140 But some of this is the sort of things that they they recommend to couples when they're 00:29:34.540 --> 00:29:35.580 struggling, right? 00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:40.780 That it is even if you're not feeling you still need, you know, doing these things for your 00:29:40.780 --> 00:29:41.500 partner, right? 00:29:41.660 --> 00:29:45.820 You know, having that time and doing those committed things because it it it does that. 00:29:46.130 --> 00:29:51.730 right um and so yeah I think I think you're right there that that deception about 00:29:52.130 --> 00:29:57.650 um on both ends right it can be beneficial to build you know create that cycle um 00:29:58.050 --> 00:30:02.770 that's really interesting yeah I love that idea that um about Carrie what you said about 00:30:02.770 --> 00:30:08.530 this super highly cooperative thing and David this thing about um we sort of 00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:13.400 turn off our skepticism or our usual criticisms. 00:30:13.560 --> 00:30:19.240 There's uh Marvin Minsky had this book after the um uh Society of Mind, which was not 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:20.520 nearly as well received. 00:30:20.600 --> 00:30:22.760 And and some of it was sort of out of his wheelhouse. 00:30:22.840 --> 00:30:26.360 He talked about things that like in development that I don't think are true. 00:30:26.520 --> 00:30:28.120 But there's some really good insights about it. 00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:30.040 It was his last book before he passed away. 00:30:30.170 --> 00:30:31.690 And one of it is about love. 00:30:32.010 --> 00:30:36.650 And his argument is that if you actually look at what a lot of people describe when they 00:30:36.650 --> 00:30:40.650 talk about being in love, is sort of like there's nobody I can't think of anyone else other 00:30:40.650 --> 00:30:41.210 than you. 00:30:41.690 --> 00:30:43.930 You know, I can't think of anything other than you. 00:30:44.090 --> 00:30:48.890 Um, and his argument is a lot of it is sort of actually negatively framed, where where he's 00:30:48.890 --> 00:30:54.760 basically describing it as the usual critics in our head of sort of like this person's 00:30:54.760 --> 00:30:55.560 annoying. 00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:57.720 What else can I be doing with my time? 00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:00.120 Like, there's nothing I'd rather be doing than spend time with you. 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:01.800 I can't think of anyone other than you. 00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:07.800 It's this sort of super signal of the usual sort of cost 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.240 benefit transactional analysis I have with the world. 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:17.330 I am pointing to you through this evolved commitment devices output and saying the usual 00:31:17.330 --> 00:31:21.650 things of like I'm gonna think about other stuff, I'm gonna do other stuff, I'm gonna even 00:31:21.650 --> 00:31:24.050 consider other stuff is all turned off. 00:31:24.210 --> 00:31:26.050 There's nothing I can think about other than you. 00:31:26.210 --> 00:31:27.970 I can't imagine doing anything other than you. 00:31:28.050 --> 00:31:30.290 I never wanna be any with anyone other than you. 00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:36.050 You know, like it's just it's this beautiful readout of this just turning off all of the 00:31:36.050 --> 00:31:37.730 usual sort of cost benefit things. 00:31:37.810 --> 00:31:40.050 So it really reminded me, David, of what you were saying. 00:31:40.520 --> 00:31:41.480 Yeah, no, totally. 00:31:41.560 --> 00:31:41.800 Yeah. 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:43.560 I I I I I buy that a lot. 00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:47.800 Um and and you know, it is romantic to turn off those cost benefit things. 00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:52.760 And and signaling that you've turned off your cost benefit calculators in your brain to 00:31:52.760 --> 00:31:56.680 your mate can increase their commitment to you, which increases your commitment to them. 00:31:56.840 --> 00:32:01.240 And yeah, I think that's a big part of what love is and how you build commitment with 00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:05.530 someone is, you know, it's it's a two way street and you gotta sometimes you gotta just get 00:32:05.530 --> 00:32:10.250 into a positive feedback loop, um, even if it's founded on on something that's you know not 00:32:10.330 --> 00:32:15.610 not quite true or or more of a romantic myth, but still, you know, it can lead to something 00:32:15.610 --> 00:32:16.970 that becomes real. 00:32:17.770 --> 00:32:20.010 Um, you know, it might be true too. 00:32:20.170 --> 00:32:24.090 I mean, you can also just imagine like from a very alien and cynical perspective, you might 00:32:24.090 --> 00:32:28.900 just imagine you're sort of like, look, we have this organism and it can't stand the other 00:32:28.900 --> 00:32:32.740 organisms that's around because you know, like we it's just been designed to sort of like 00:32:32.740 --> 00:32:34.580 maximize its own benefits. 00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:38.900 But we have to get like two organisms together for long enough to like, you know, 00:32:39.140 --> 00:32:41.540 successfully produce and raise children. 00:32:41.780 --> 00:32:45.380 What are the things that I mean, we know this for disgust, for example, right? 00:32:45.460 --> 00:32:49.620 Like one of the things about sexual and Carrie, you probably know much more about the 00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:53.460 primary literature than this, but just anecdotally, you know, or people always talk about 00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:58.750 in classes that when lust is turned on, or whatever, what is the technical term for lust? 00:32:58.830 --> 00:32:59.470 What would that be? 00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:00.910 Sexual arousal. 00:33:01.310 --> 00:33:01.870 Arousal. 00:33:01.950 --> 00:33:02.430 Yeah. 00:33:02.590 --> 00:33:04.110 Um, disgust is turned down. 00:33:04.190 --> 00:33:07.550 Like even the Deb Lieberman work, like if you're attracted to somebody, you're not as 00:33:07.550 --> 00:33:08.510 disgusted, right? 00:33:08.750 --> 00:33:13.710 Um, and that's clearly like the usual, like, well, that's just disgusting to like, you 00:33:13.710 --> 00:33:16.110 know, be around somebody or like deal with them. 00:33:16.270 --> 00:33:19.180 Those things get turned down in order to, you know, make kids. 00:33:19.260 --> 00:33:19.820 That makes sense. 00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:25.580 And so the idea is that's sort of just that same design principle, but then applied to lots 00:33:25.580 --> 00:33:29.900 of stuff, which is just like if you're around somebody for a long time, is it generally 00:33:29.900 --> 00:33:30.300 annoying? 00:33:30.380 --> 00:33:36.300 And maybe what love is, this Minsky idea, is it's good reasons 00:33:36.300 --> 00:33:39.580 to turn down the things that would ordinarily bother you. 00:33:39.740 --> 00:33:42.780 And it's probably the same thing for love for your kid too, right? 00:33:42.860 --> 00:33:43.980 Like we're all parents. 00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:48.910 I mean, the things that my son does, if another person did it, it would just drive me 00:33:48.910 --> 00:33:49.310 crazy. 00:33:49.390 --> 00:33:52.990 And it's and it's tolerable, you know, and I love and I love my son to death. 00:33:53.150 --> 00:33:56.670 But you know, it's just that threshold just really gets down regulated. 00:33:56.750 --> 00:34:02.110 So I this this idea that love is changing thresholds on sort of what's 00:34:02.110 --> 00:34:06.750 intolerable, I think is is is a really interesting idea that I've not really seen much 00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:07.870 literature on. 00:34:08.670 --> 00:34:09.150 Yeah. 00:34:09.390 --> 00:34:15.360 Um, you're making me think of so there's there's the piece of it for uh so it was a 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:18.720 couple things you're both saying, but I I don't know if anybody's sort of empirically 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:24.160 demonstrated if we've looked at sort of statements or things people say that they think 00:34:24.160 --> 00:34:26.240 convey, you know, that love and commitment, right? 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:30.160 If the ones that do it the best are the ones that really do indicate exactly what you're 00:34:30.160 --> 00:34:35.390 saying, that you are forgoing other things or for giving up other options or 00:34:35.950 --> 00:34:41.310 or um you know not not interested in those other things and and other like fixed beneficial 00:34:41.310 --> 00:34:46.750 things right that but and that that but for you right and if that then uh 00:34:46.910 --> 00:34:52.830 those are perceived as as particularly indicative of particularly romantic right I mean 00:34:52.910 --> 00:34:58.190 that that it might come feel that way right how interesting yeah and in some of that too 00:34:58.270 --> 00:35:03.340 it's it's you know, it's interesting with that kind of, you know, love commitment device 00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:04.380 kind of idea. 00:35:04.540 --> 00:35:08.540 Um, you know, a big thing that matters is is your alternatives, right? 00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:13.900 So it's this, and this is something people don't like to think about with the under the 00:35:13.900 --> 00:35:14.780 hood stuff, right? 00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:19.660 That, you know, as much as it's, you know, there there is that shared investment you have 00:35:19.660 --> 00:35:22.060 with this person that's built this relationship, right? 00:35:22.300 --> 00:35:27.410 Um, it is likely that we also, you know, have a sense of what our alternatives are, right? 00:35:27.570 --> 00:35:30.930 And that is stored and toggled away somewhere, right? 00:35:31.170 --> 00:35:36.050 Uh, and and in many cases, you know, it is it is not worth right, uh, you know, leaving the 00:35:36.050 --> 00:35:40.530 current good thing one has, right, for what those potential alternatives are, but the way 00:35:40.530 --> 00:35:45.170 that that can fluctuate over time, um, depending on a partner, depending on partner's 00:35:45.170 --> 00:35:50.290 value, your value, the um potential of the alternatives you have, right? 00:35:50.450 --> 00:35:54.840 Um, that we we should expect relationships to to end, right? 00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:56.600 That for those reasons. 00:35:57.160 --> 00:36:02.440 And so for all the the the nice side of this, oh, things that are so romantic and love, 00:36:02.520 --> 00:36:03.320 it's so, right? 00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:08.600 There's a side of it too, I think, that learning and in researching in this world, uh, 00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:11.640 that, you know, it's not sad when relationships end, right? 00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:17.530 That we we should predict relationships and in that successful relationships might be one 00:36:17.530 --> 00:36:20.570 that lasts, you know, a certain amount of time, right? 00:36:20.650 --> 00:36:24.250 Whether it's, you know, one year, two years, five years, 10 years, 15 years, whatever. 00:36:24.570 --> 00:36:28.650 But for very sort of reasonable reasons, right? 00:36:28.810 --> 00:36:33.770 That you we would expect, oh, that this is no longer the the cooperative relationship that 00:36:33.770 --> 00:36:37.130 it makes sense to be as deeply committed to, right? 00:36:37.290 --> 00:36:40.300 And that uh that then that that relationship ends, right? 00:36:40.460 --> 00:36:43.820 And we're we're very comfortable with that for the other types of you know, friendships 00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:45.180 end, we're okay with that. 00:36:45.260 --> 00:36:50.700 Uh business relationships end other types of partnerships, but you know, for romantic 00:36:50.700 --> 00:36:54.380 relationships, um, it is a much touchier thing, right? 00:36:54.540 --> 00:36:59.420 Um, the perceptions of people when they break up, actually breaking up, the the effects of 00:36:59.420 --> 00:37:05.310 that um become uh but but we should expect that people will end relationships, right? 00:37:05.390 --> 00:37:07.870 And they will for these different reasons. 00:37:08.030 --> 00:37:11.230 So Yeah, we don't really think about like, you know, grief, right? 00:37:11.310 --> 00:37:13.310 We just think, well, you know, grief is a natural part. 00:37:13.390 --> 00:37:14.990 It should end and there's a function to it. 00:37:15.070 --> 00:37:18.270 I mean, or at least maybe nowadays, maybe before we were like, you shouldn't feel grief or 00:37:18.270 --> 00:37:18.510 something. 00:37:18.590 --> 00:37:18.990 I don't know. 00:37:19.070 --> 00:37:23.470 But uh, but yeah, no, the idea that sort of love, it almost feels like, and I don't know if 00:37:23.470 --> 00:37:27.180 this is cross-cultural, but it's almost like you're describing that there's sort of love 00:37:27.180 --> 00:37:27.980 propaganda. 00:37:28.140 --> 00:37:29.820 And I don't know if that's universal. 00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:34.060 Like I don't know if that's a function of uh, you know, you have a market of you need 00:37:34.060 --> 00:37:37.260 people to sort of like buy your candy bar, and so you got to show them something they're 00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:37.740 interested in. 00:37:37.820 --> 00:37:41.340 And what are people interested in like violence and um mating? 00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:44.300 Because it's really it's opaque, it's difficult to know. 00:37:44.380 --> 00:37:46.700 You might learn a lesson horror too, you know, other things. 00:37:46.780 --> 00:37:52.610 But um, and so if there's a lot of love propaganda in in fiction or literature or what 00:37:52.610 --> 00:37:58.450 you're exposed to, it's all on the these are things that this would make it 00:37:58.450 --> 00:37:59.090 really great. 00:37:59.330 --> 00:38:03.810 Like you would predict ahead of time, like what would you make to make people want to watch 00:38:03.810 --> 00:38:03.970 it? 00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:07.250 It would be all about um how to make it work well. 00:38:07.410 --> 00:38:11.970 And if it worked well, it would it would it would last and be what you want, right? 00:38:12.210 --> 00:38:17.650 And so I wonder if this sort of like love propaganda gives us a really unrealistic 00:38:17.650 --> 00:38:19.780 view of what love is. 00:38:19.860 --> 00:38:23.460 And that, and it sounds like what you're saying is sort of if we took a much more like 00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:28.500 sophisticated view of it and we think about what its function is, then might we might think 00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:31.380 about it differently and its time course differently. 00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:32.740 Yeah. 00:38:32.900 --> 00:38:35.780 And I also think so there's the love, I like the love propaganda idea. 00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:38.580 I think that that's that's interesting. 00:38:38.740 --> 00:38:42.650 Um, and absolutely, and from a very, very young age, right? 00:38:42.810 --> 00:38:47.370 That is that that the idealizing of all of that, right? 00:38:47.530 --> 00:38:53.450 Um, but then it's also other stuff about um our norms, uh, you 00:38:53.450 --> 00:38:56.650 know, religion, um, our our laws, right? 00:38:56.730 --> 00:38:59.610 How all of that works, that that does the same thing, right? 00:38:59.850 --> 00:39:04.860 So um, you know, certainly in if you're looking at like Christianity, right? 00:39:04.940 --> 00:39:05.900 Like a lot of that, right? 00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:10.380 It's it's you're getting married and you're you're together and it in it in it makes that a 00:39:10.460 --> 00:39:11.740 that's a biblical thing, right? 00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:15.100 That's a you know, God is saying that's a good thing to do, right? 00:39:15.340 --> 00:39:19.740 Um so there's that, you know, on top of it as part of that love propaganda, right? 00:39:20.140 --> 00:39:25.970 Uh and then also just if you think about uh you know marriage and divorce and and and 00:39:25.970 --> 00:39:31.010 other uh the the ways we legally do it right um it gets complicated once you're intertwined 00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:35.330 with somebody for those you know those legal reasons right and then unintertwining is hard 00:39:35.490 --> 00:39:39.730 right in some cases depending on how intertwined people have become um and so that 00:39:39.730 --> 00:39:44.850 scaffolds on top for like why well no you just should be together forever right like 00:39:45.010 --> 00:39:49.890 because that dissolution process would be really complicated uh and somebody often people 00:39:50.140 --> 00:39:54.540 some or both people end up losing out, losing a lot in the end for doing it that is very 00:39:54.540 --> 00:39:56.140 evolutionarily novel, right? 00:39:56.300 --> 00:40:01.740 Um, you know, the idea of splitting assets and and all of these things that have to 00:40:01.740 --> 00:40:07.740 happen um is is a lot that I I think, you know, it doesn't I I can't imagine 00:40:07.740 --> 00:40:10.940 how it would have existed for a lot of human evolutionary history, but it does now. 00:40:11.100 --> 00:40:16.530 And so it's more reasons to why just stay together, oh being staying together longer is 00:40:16.530 --> 00:40:20.530 better and and that's the right thing to do and the good thing to do when that might not 00:40:20.610 --> 00:40:23.410 you know comport with how the psychology is designed. 00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:23.970 Yeah. 00:40:24.210 --> 00:40:29.330 Yeah the moralization of of of sex in relationships is just so interesting. 00:40:29.410 --> 00:40:35.250 And I mean I suspect David it's sort of for I mean you you alluded to it David about sort 00:40:35.250 --> 00:40:40.210 of the strategic um reasons for it but it's it's really weird um 00:40:44.900 --> 00:40:45.300 Yeah. 00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:52.980 That mating is a zero sum game and mates are a limited resource. 00:40:53.140 --> 00:40:58.020 And that uh you know if if I commit to someone as a mate, that takes me off the mating 00:40:58.020 --> 00:41:01.620 market and that could upset a lot of people because I'm such a handsome guy. 00:41:01.780 --> 00:41:07.530 Um but uh uh I think viewing um I th I uh viewing mating as a zero sum 00:41:07.690 --> 00:41:10.730 game, I think can offer a lot of insights and a lot of uncomfortable insights. 00:41:10.890 --> 00:41:15.450 Because I think one of the ways that we play the game is by concealing its zero sum 00:41:15.770 --> 00:41:16.570 aspects. 00:41:16.810 --> 00:41:22.410 You know, there's there's nothing less romantic than saying, Oh, um, you are the highest 00:41:22.410 --> 00:41:27.370 value mate that I can currently get at my current vape mate value, um, due to these 00:41:27.370 --> 00:41:28.410 characteristics. 00:41:28.660 --> 00:41:30.980 and that is why I'm uh attracted to you. 00:41:31.060 --> 00:41:34.500 Uh there's nothing less romantic than than putting it in those terms. 00:41:34.740 --> 00:41:37.940 Um, and and yet that is basically what's going on. 00:41:38.100 --> 00:41:41.460 You're making a calculation about what your your value is on the market, what the other 00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:45.060 partner's value is on the market, what are the potential alternatives, and you're making 00:41:45.060 --> 00:41:48.020 the best uh uh calculation uh based on the circumstances. 00:41:48.180 --> 00:41:52.150 But if you were to actually say all that in a relationship, it would torpedo the 00:41:52.150 --> 00:41:52.870 relationship. 00:41:53.350 --> 00:41:56.550 David, here's a new suggestion about a new entrepreneurial idea. 00:41:56.630 --> 00:42:00.310 You could do Valentine's Day, Cards Against Humanity, Valentine's Cards. 00:42:00.630 --> 00:42:01.270 Yeah. 00:42:02.710 --> 00:42:03.590 Yeah, totally. 00:42:04.710 --> 00:42:05.270 Not a good idea. 00:42:05.430 --> 00:42:07.030 Not a yes, not a good idea. 00:42:07.270 --> 00:42:12.310 No, I mean I I'm thinking about writing a post called Love is Bullshit um on this stuff. 00:42:12.470 --> 00:42:15.160 Um maybe maybe releasing it on Valentine's Day. 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:18.760 But I want to poke on David's idea and actually argue that maybe what Carrie was saying is 00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:21.240 more right, which is that we had Brook Brooke Shellza on. 00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:25.560 And it's not like even in a very like polygynous or you know, with a lot of um 00:42:26.680 --> 00:42:32.280 polygyny is that the right word when it's not gendered, when they're both I believe 00:42:32.680 --> 00:42:34.810 there's polygamy pol by polyandry. 00:42:35.450 --> 00:42:36.890 Polygamy, I think it's the broader term, right? 00:42:37.050 --> 00:42:37.610 Okay, polygamy. 00:42:37.690 --> 00:42:37.930 Okay, so I think it's a good thing. 00:42:39.370 --> 00:42:40.730 Okay, okay, thank you. 00:42:40.970 --> 00:42:43.930 Um for some reason I'm really questioning my like vocabulary today. 00:42:44.010 --> 00:42:44.250 I don't know. 00:42:44.330 --> 00:42:44.650 It's okay. 00:42:44.890 --> 00:42:45.370 It's confusing. 00:42:45.610 --> 00:42:45.770 Yeah. 00:42:45.850 --> 00:42:51.450 Uh but anyway, even with Brooks Shelza, like I I kind of we didn't talk about this and we 00:42:51.450 --> 00:42:52.650 haven't posted the episode yet. 00:42:52.730 --> 00:42:54.330 It's probably gonna be coming out soon. 00:42:54.490 --> 00:42:55.450 We've already talked to her. 00:42:55.690 --> 00:43:01.660 But it was it's It struck me that I can think, Carrie, like your point about uh 00:43:01.660 --> 00:43:07.580 mateships being highly cooperative is actually really key to it because even even in the 00:43:07.660 --> 00:43:13.660 um in the in the Himba with a lot of polygyny, there's still sort of like this keeping 00:43:13.660 --> 00:43:18.940 it on the DL about who exactly the other you know partners are. 00:43:19.180 --> 00:43:23.130 And it really struck me that even though everybody sort of knows that everybody else is 00:43:23.130 --> 00:43:25.370 doing it and I'm doing it and you're doing it. 00:43:25.530 --> 00:43:30.970 And I and it struck me that I think a lot of that has to do with it's this common knowledge 00:43:30.970 --> 00:43:31.530 thing, right? 00:43:31.610 --> 00:43:33.850 Of sort of like what's my value? 00:43:34.170 --> 00:43:40.170 And if I'm uh I am like investing in a partner, but somebody else is 00:43:40.170 --> 00:43:46.160 sleeping with that partner, but it becomes common knowledge, then that could lower 00:43:46.160 --> 00:43:50.080 my status or how much investment other people feel like they need to give me. 00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:50.640 Right. 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:56.400 And so I think a lot of it has to do with the this quo this highly cooperative nature, as 00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:00.960 you talked about, Carrie, which is that everybody's sort of status of sort of how much 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:06.800 cooperation do I deserve, how much esteem do I deserve, um, how much am I investing in this 00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:07.120 person? 00:44:07.600 --> 00:44:13.590 Um, if if it becomes common knowledge that sort of all of this stuff is is out 00:44:13.590 --> 00:44:19.510 in the open, then it strikes me that it sort of dissolves precisely because 00:44:19.510 --> 00:44:25.430 everybody's worried that their market uh value decreases in the cooperative market. 00:44:25.590 --> 00:44:29.910 So everybody knows that other people are sort of like, you know, having sex with other 00:44:29.910 --> 00:44:32.920 people, but but why would that be hidden? 00:44:33.080 --> 00:44:39.000 And I and I think it has to do with like the signals of investment and how much 00:44:39.560 --> 00:44:45.160 like I might cooperate with you less if I think that other people know 00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:51.400 that you're not um, you know, being faithful to me in that relationship, 00:44:51.560 --> 00:44:51.880 right? 00:44:52.040 --> 00:44:57.370 But it but if it's if it's sort of opaque, then we all can sort of it's a stable 00:44:57.370 --> 00:45:01.370 equilibrium, even though it's sort of I don't know if that makes sense, but that's yeah. 00:45:01.930 --> 00:45:07.690 In in that, I mean the phenomena at least seems to also happen in like a 00:45:07.690 --> 00:45:12.890 society uh like ours, which is, you know, uh mostly monogamous, right? 00:45:12.970 --> 00:45:14.970 Um, or at least on the surface of monogamous, right? 00:45:15.050 --> 00:45:16.650 Where people do have affairs, right? 00:45:16.730 --> 00:45:21.380 And there is sometimes, oh, kind of maybe annoying, but it's not until it becomes public 00:45:21.380 --> 00:45:24.740 that that's when the other partners, okay, now it's a problem, right? 00:45:25.060 --> 00:45:28.980 And it and it it could be for that exact logic that you're describing there, right? 00:45:29.300 --> 00:45:34.740 Now it's not just that I kind of knew, and maybe other people kind of knew, but now I know 00:45:34.740 --> 00:45:38.820 that they know, and they know that I know, and we all know all the common knowledge, right? 00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:43.620 That uh that everybody knows that you are investing some over here and it's not, and then I 00:45:43.620 --> 00:45:47.700 am over, but I am only you know over investing in you, and everybody knows there's this 00:45:47.750 --> 00:45:50.550 this investment differential in our partnership now, right? 00:45:50.790 --> 00:45:52.230 And what does that say about me now? 00:45:52.550 --> 00:45:52.870 Exactly. 00:45:52.950 --> 00:45:57.510 You can infer the welfare trade-off ratio that you're willing to tolerate if it's common 00:45:57.510 --> 00:45:57.830 knowledge. 00:45:57.990 --> 00:46:01.110 So if I don't know you know, then it's ambiguous. 00:46:01.190 --> 00:46:05.110 But as soon as I know you know, and you know that you I know and you're still going along 00:46:05.110 --> 00:46:10.320 with it, then it's sort of a signal of, yep, this is the level of relationship I'm willing 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:11.120 to tolerate. 00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:12.560 And it's solidified. 00:46:12.640 --> 00:46:14.000 There is ambiguity before. 00:46:14.080 --> 00:46:18.640 And so not wanting to know your partner's cheating on you is an example of like not wanting 00:46:18.640 --> 00:46:22.320 to know where it would be sort of you're making the best of a bad situation. 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:27.200 And you're sort of like, if I don't pursue it, I don't even let my partner know that I know 00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:29.600 because I'm not letting them know I'm willing to tolerate it. 00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:29.970 right? 00:46:30.210 --> 00:46:35.170 If I suspect it but I don't pursue it, then I can there's sort of plausible deniability 00:46:35.170 --> 00:46:37.650 that they didn't know and I still can expect better treatment. 00:46:37.730 --> 00:46:41.810 But if it becomes common knowledge, then I'm showing I'm willing to put up with worse 00:46:41.810 --> 00:46:43.250 treatment than they might think otherwise. 00:46:43.330 --> 00:46:45.810 And that that logic applies to third parties too. 00:46:47.250 --> 00:46:48.210 That's really interesting. 00:46:48.370 --> 00:46:54.240 I mean that suggests an interesting possibility that to me has not 00:46:54.240 --> 00:46:59.440 been studied at all, to my knowledge, which is when uh one partner may uh 00:46:59.680 --> 00:47:05.360 intentionally um choose not to know if their other partner is cheating or 00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:11.360 actively try to conceal that information and not want it to become uh common knowledge. 00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:11.520 Yeah. 00:47:11.680 --> 00:47:13.360 Uh for for that very reason. 00:47:13.520 --> 00:47:18.530 It's better to, you know, um know but not know that I know. 00:47:18.690 --> 00:47:22.930 You know, to not for it to not be known that I that I am tolerating this level of 00:47:22.930 --> 00:47:23.890 exploitation. 00:47:24.210 --> 00:47:29.810 And that way I can continue um, you know, with the status quo uh without the 00:47:29.810 --> 00:47:30.770 reputational costs. 00:47:30.930 --> 00:47:32.690 It's a really interesting possibility. 00:47:33.090 --> 00:47:38.050 And and I don't in one of the papers I have with Dan Comrabeam, where he's probably the 00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:43.680 lead author, um, where we talk about relationship satisfaction, we get at this idea in some 00:47:43.680 --> 00:47:43.840 way. 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:46.160 I'd have to go back and look exactly how, right? 00:47:46.240 --> 00:47:49.680 But it, but it's this idea, if we're thinking about relationship satisfaction as an 00:47:49.680 --> 00:47:52.960 adaptation and sort of the function that we lay out, right? 00:47:53.120 --> 00:47:57.840 Is it that it's, you know, motivating maintenance behavior, you know, to the extent that 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:01.520 this is a fitness, you know, the the benefits that weigh the cost, fair for saying this 00:48:01.520 --> 00:48:05.200 relationship, um, that should lead to high satisfaction and then behaviors that are are, 00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:08.080 you know, keeping you in the relationship and keeping the partner, right? 00:48:08.270 --> 00:48:13.550 Um, whereas, you know, to the extent that there's information or an assessment that, you 00:48:13.550 --> 00:48:16.830 know, leaving this relationship would be better, then you should have lower satisfaction 00:48:16.910 --> 00:48:18.750 and that might motivate the leaving, right? 00:48:18.910 --> 00:48:20.510 Um, and so there's a prediction here, right? 00:48:20.670 --> 00:48:24.270 That, you know, for the same person, right, this knowledge that your partner's cheating, 00:48:24.430 --> 00:48:24.750 right? 00:48:24.910 --> 00:48:29.310 Well, if for all the other reasons the benefits out the way the cost of staying and you 00:48:29.310 --> 00:48:33.230 don't have other options, maybe you've got a lot of you know vehicles you're investing in, 00:48:33.390 --> 00:48:34.430 those kids, right? 00:48:34.590 --> 00:48:40.580 Um, and you, you know, leaving wouldn't, then you should still feel satisfied, right? 00:48:40.740 --> 00:48:44.740 Um, but another person, you know, in that same cheating relation, you know, the exact same 00:48:44.740 --> 00:48:49.060 cheating is going on, right, with a different array of a different landscape, right? 00:48:49.220 --> 00:48:50.900 They would might feel dissatisfaction. 00:48:50.980 --> 00:48:56.020 Um, and so we have it in there a little bit with that kind of idea about you know, a 00:48:56.020 --> 00:48:58.740 relationship satisfaction adaptation working in that way. 00:48:59.490 --> 00:49:00.370 That's really interesting. 00:49:00.450 --> 00:49:04.530 I also, I mean, not to just go slightly darker too. 00:49:04.690 --> 00:49:09.970 This also happens like in ex other exploitative or abusive relationships too, right? 00:49:10.050 --> 00:49:13.890 Where somebody is sort of like, if somebody's like doing something terrible to me, there 00:49:14.130 --> 00:49:15.570 people did this weird thing, right? 00:49:15.650 --> 00:49:21.520 Where it's sort of like um they people don't if if I'm being abused, I don't want 00:49:21.520 --> 00:49:24.000 other people to know that, which is sort of weird. 00:49:24.080 --> 00:49:27.440 And especially from a modern perspective, like people look at that and they're like, What 00:49:27.520 --> 00:49:29.920 what is that victim doing? 00:49:30.160 --> 00:49:33.680 And there's sort of all this narrative that they've internalized their worthlessness or 00:49:33.680 --> 00:49:33.920 whatever. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:39.520 But this makes a different view of that, which is that um there's a calculation in their 00:49:39.520 --> 00:49:44.930 head that if other people know, I'm worried that they're actually, and I and I feel like I 00:49:44.930 --> 00:49:49.490 need to stay in this and I don't have outside options, then it's just my evolved psychology 00:49:49.490 --> 00:49:52.850 saying I shouldn't let other people know this because I'm actually going to have worse 00:49:52.850 --> 00:49:53.490 treatment. 00:49:53.650 --> 00:49:57.970 Um, and so I actually think like that might not be true in some circumstances, but this 00:49:57.970 --> 00:50:03.090 actually would predict uh ways to, if that's true, then you might actually be able to 00:50:03.090 --> 00:50:08.220 formulate a way of actually getting people to sort of like report themselves being abused 00:50:08.220 --> 00:50:12.220 at higher rates if you kind of understand the psychology that's otherwise preventing that. 00:50:13.020 --> 00:50:14.540 That makes a lot of sense to me. 00:50:14.700 --> 00:50:15.820 Um, absolutely. 00:50:15.980 --> 00:50:16.380 Yeah. 00:50:16.540 --> 00:50:22.540 It and I wonder too, I'm a mating 00:50:22.540 --> 00:50:24.460 psychology researcher, so I always go to sex differences. 00:50:24.780 --> 00:50:30.570 Um it's uh you know, I if you look in the 00:50:30.570 --> 00:50:34.090 the intimate partner violence literature, so that's the term, you know, in the literature 00:50:34.090 --> 00:50:38.570 is IPv, intimate partner um violence, and that'll include emotional abuse and physical 00:50:38.570 --> 00:50:40.490 abuse and those sorts of things, right? 00:50:40.650 --> 00:50:46.250 You see, you know, higher rates, you know, women reporting it more and uh women the I think 00:50:46.410 --> 00:50:50.570 actually being, you know, um the victims of IPV more than men. 00:50:50.730 --> 00:50:52.650 But there is this question of reporting, right? 00:50:52.810 --> 00:50:56.010 The extent are there that sex differences in reporting, right? 00:50:56.330 --> 00:51:01.920 And some of this, I wonder if there's men, it would be more costly to be 00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:04.720 perceived as a victim than it would be for women. 00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:10.560 And so to the extent that men, there's greater underreporting from men that it's because 00:51:10.560 --> 00:51:12.960 of this sort of argument you're making. 00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:13.520 Right. 00:51:13.600 --> 00:51:15.120 Yeah, that's interesting. 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:16.080 Yeah. 00:51:16.240 --> 00:51:21.280 No, I I feel like the topic of strategic ignorance in in mating, I think, is really 00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:23.120 understudied and interesting. 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:28.930 Um I think people would uh a naive psychologist might frame it in terms of I'm protecting 00:51:28.930 --> 00:51:33.570 myself from negative feelings or or or whatever, but I think viewing it in a more 00:51:33.570 --> 00:51:37.490 functional game theoretic perspective is illuminating. 00:51:37.730 --> 00:51:43.650 Um speaking of which, I know you're thinking about um a really interesting topic in mating, 00:51:43.730 --> 00:51:48.130 which is regret and disappointment, uh, and trying to um 00:51:48.770 --> 00:51:54.060 disentangle what those two terms mean and try to approach it from more of a functional game 00:51:54.060 --> 00:51:57.260 theoretic perspective than we might have otherwise taken toward those topics. 00:51:57.420 --> 00:52:03.260 So, how how are you thinking about regret versus disappointment in the context of mating? 00:52:03.580 --> 00:52:09.580 In in what context might we feel regret about uh a mating decision versus disappointment? 00:52:09.660 --> 00:52:11.660 And and what even is the difference between those two things? 00:52:11.980 --> 00:52:12.380 Yeah. 00:52:12.620 --> 00:52:17.850 So um I'll start a little bit with the difference in like the broader literature that's 00:52:17.850 --> 00:52:19.370 looked at regret and disappointment. 00:52:19.530 --> 00:52:24.250 Um, and and what at least has been identified in that broader literature, much of which is 00:52:24.250 --> 00:52:28.650 not sort of an evolutionary functional perspective, it's at least honed in on the 00:52:28.650 --> 00:52:33.290 circumstances in which people experience regret versus disappointment and and separating 00:52:33.290 --> 00:52:33.850 the two. 00:52:34.010 --> 00:52:39.860 And they they frame um regret as the thing you experience when so so both of 00:52:39.860 --> 00:52:43.940 them are emotions that you experience when um you've had to make a decision, right? 00:52:44.020 --> 00:52:45.460 And and pick a path, right? 00:52:45.620 --> 00:52:49.060 Where you didn't necessarily know what the outcome was was going to be, right? 00:52:49.460 --> 00:52:55.460 Um, and regret is what happens when there's the outcome to your decision, and it is 00:52:55.460 --> 00:52:59.690 a worse outcome than what would have happened if you had made a different decision, if you 00:52:59.690 --> 00:53:01.370 had done something else, right? 00:53:01.610 --> 00:53:05.050 Um, and it might be that you actually know what the outcome would have been if you had done 00:53:05.050 --> 00:53:05.850 the other thing, right? 00:53:06.010 --> 00:53:10.010 But it might also be that you're sort of simulating what would have happened if you had 00:53:10.010 --> 00:53:13.610 done the other thing or what the possibilities are for what would have happened, because 00:53:13.690 --> 00:53:17.050 because you didn't do that thing, you don't necessarily know what would have happened, but 00:53:17.290 --> 00:53:22.410 that certainty can vary depending on what exact statisticision we're talking about. 00:53:22.570 --> 00:53:28.400 So so regret in a in relationships or or in a uh in after a sexual 00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:32.800 encounter or something like that would be something like, well, uh, maybe you chose to have 00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:37.280 sex with somebody, and uh, you know, the alternative there might have been if you chose 00:53:37.600 --> 00:53:41.760 didn't have sex with them, and regret would be experienced if after having sex with them, 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:45.120 whatever the outcome is, you're you're thinking it would have been better. 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:47.920 The outcome would have been better if I had not had sex with this person, right? 00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:49.840 And I'm now experiencing regret. 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.400 Um, disappointment is a different discrepancy. 00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:57.910 So it's the discrepancy between the outcome that happened and what your 00:53:57.910 --> 00:54:00.790 expectations were about that outcome. 00:54:01.190 --> 00:54:07.110 So, you know, a disappointment would be something more like, okay, I was, 00:54:07.190 --> 00:54:09.990 you know, thinking of having, you know, casual sex with somebody, right? 00:54:10.150 --> 00:54:14.550 And I've sort of imagined what this might be like, whether I'm imagining what the actual 00:54:14.550 --> 00:54:18.600 encounter would be like, or I'm imagining what the consequences would be. 00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:22.280 Maybe, maybe this will be the beginning of a beautiful relationship, right? 00:54:22.520 --> 00:54:26.360 Um, that, you know, there's there's things that could happen from this that are third or 00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:26.920 great. 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:32.200 Uh, and then you have sex with this person, and then that the outcome does not live up to 00:54:32.200 --> 00:54:33.160 those expectations. 00:54:33.320 --> 00:54:35.320 That's the experience of disappointment. 00:54:35.560 --> 00:54:39.800 And so you can see how in any given outcome, you could experience both, right? 00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:45.530 It could be that there's an outcome and it both doesn't live up to expectations and if you 00:54:45.530 --> 00:54:47.290 had made a different decision, it would have been better. 00:54:47.450 --> 00:54:50.410 But you also could uniquely experience one or the other. 00:54:50.570 --> 00:54:52.090 Regret often comes with disappointment. 00:54:52.170 --> 00:54:55.370 That one's a little harder to separate, but you can absolutely have disappointment without 00:54:55.370 --> 00:54:56.410 having regret, right? 00:54:56.570 --> 00:55:01.610 It could be that an experience doesn't live up to the expectations, but it's not that 00:55:01.610 --> 00:55:04.970 there's some other outcome that you think would have been better, right? 00:55:05.130 --> 00:55:07.770 Than the outcome you experienced. 00:55:08.330 --> 00:55:11.850 And so there's this distinction exists in the literature, but again, it hasn't really 00:55:11.850 --> 00:55:14.080 built, you know, built into it. 00:55:14.240 --> 00:55:16.480 What what is there an evolved function here? 00:55:16.720 --> 00:55:21.200 What are we talking about for these different adaptive problems that that might be 00:55:21.200 --> 00:55:22.160 triggering this? 00:55:22.240 --> 00:55:23.520 Um, and this matters, right? 00:55:23.600 --> 00:55:28.000 It could just be that actually it is sort of the same functional program of the mind 00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:32.480 producing these different things, but we have just picked up on different language for 00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:34.160 different pieces of it. 00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:39.040 Uh, and so, you know, there's there's the being careful about are these different emotions 00:55:39.040 --> 00:55:41.120 from an evolutionary perspective? 00:55:41.730 --> 00:55:47.570 But yeah, but what started me on this is there are studies on uh regret after casual sex 00:55:47.650 --> 00:55:50.690 uh in from an evolutionary psychological perspective. 00:55:51.010 --> 00:55:56.690 And those studies uh highlight a sex difference, and that tends to be a big focus of 00:55:56.690 --> 00:55:57.730 those studies. 00:55:58.050 --> 00:56:03.330 And what they look at for regret after casual sex is sort of two sides of it. 00:56:03.490 --> 00:56:06.520 There's um there's regret from having had casual sex. 00:56:06.680 --> 00:56:08.840 So action regret is what they call that. 00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:11.000 And then there's regret, inaction regret. 00:56:11.080 --> 00:56:15.000 So regret you might experience because you chose not to have casual sex and wishing that 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:15.560 you did. 00:56:15.720 --> 00:56:19.480 And what they tend to find is that women have greater action regret, right? 00:56:19.640 --> 00:56:24.760 Regret from casual sexual experiences engaged in than men, and men have greater inaction 00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:27.240 regret, these missed out experiences. 00:56:27.880 --> 00:56:31.610 But what I've been wondering in that literature, and in that literature, and a lot of 00:56:31.690 --> 00:56:36.250 things I'm doing is is have we conflated a little bit of regret and disappointment if they 00:56:36.250 --> 00:56:37.370 are different things, right? 00:56:37.450 --> 00:56:38.330 In that literature. 00:56:38.730 --> 00:56:44.650 And how much of sort of the story of casual sexual regret in women is less a 00:56:44.650 --> 00:56:47.450 story of regret and maybe more a story of disappointment? 00:56:48.490 --> 00:56:52.250 And that is some of what I'm trying to figure out now. 00:56:52.810 --> 00:56:56.650 Working with some students, I'm trying to figure out maybe, maybe how to study that. 00:56:56.890 --> 00:57:01.200 And part of that really is thinking, you know, the EP, you know, first principles trying to 00:57:01.200 --> 00:57:03.840 figure out uh what are what are the functions here? 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:07.840 Um and and yeah, uh it's it's yeah. 00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:09.280 So I'll st I'll stop there. 00:57:09.520 --> 00:57:09.840 Thoughts. 00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:12.960 Can you well so disappointment and regret. 00:57:13.040 --> 00:57:16.400 So you you set up nicely what their attributes are. 00:57:16.720 --> 00:57:20.000 So disappointment is it's different than what I expected. 00:57:20.160 --> 00:57:22.400 Regret is I should have done something different. 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:28.290 And maybe this is obvious, but you mentioned that there hasn't been um uh evolutionary 00:57:28.290 --> 00:57:30.130 approach yet, and you're doing that. 00:57:30.370 --> 00:57:33.810 So what would why why do we have these emotions? 00:57:34.050 --> 00:57:34.530 Yeah. 00:57:34.850 --> 00:57:36.850 So you know, I'll start with disappointment. 00:57:37.010 --> 00:57:40.930 Disappointment, it seems like your sort of model of the world was wrong, right? 00:57:41.170 --> 00:57:43.490 Like, because that's what your expectations are, right? 00:57:43.570 --> 00:57:48.050 And so so you experience something that has now given you new information about how the 00:57:48.050 --> 00:57:49.090 world works, right? 00:57:49.250 --> 00:57:50.610 Whatever that is, right? 00:57:50.850 --> 00:57:52.920 And so that needs to be updated, right? 00:57:53.080 --> 00:57:58.920 Like, and so that experience of disappointment, what seems to go along with it is um a 00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:01.720 little bit of like the stuff that's kind of in the depression world. 00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:07.560 Like people they they withdraw, um, they might do some ruminating on it, but they it's it's 00:58:07.560 --> 00:58:12.280 not that they wanna like go back and try again or they that seems to go along with that 00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:14.200 that disappointment path of feeling things. 00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:18.910 And so my my you know, initial thoughts there, it's it's along those lines, right? 00:58:18.990 --> 00:58:23.390 Of of that's giving you time to really assess, like, okay, so that's how the world works, 00:58:23.470 --> 00:58:27.710 or this is how I need to reevaluate, you know, the landscape, right? 00:58:27.870 --> 00:58:32.750 Um, and it would be on this, you know, dimension of of maybe disappointment to elation, 00:58:32.830 --> 00:58:37.790 because you could imagine the the flip of it where the outcome was much better than your 00:58:37.790 --> 00:58:38.350 expectations. 00:58:38.510 --> 00:58:42.350 So still a discrepancy and your model, the world was still wrong, but it was wrong in the 00:58:42.350 --> 00:58:43.150 other direction, right? 00:58:43.310 --> 00:58:45.360 Oh, the world works this way. 00:58:45.520 --> 00:58:46.000 Cool. 00:58:46.160 --> 00:58:46.400 Right. 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:51.200 So there's still an updating, but it's uh it's on that that that this was a beneficial 00:58:51.200 --> 00:58:55.040 thing, you know, and you you were gonna miss an opportunity if you, you know, you know, 00:58:55.120 --> 00:58:58.320 hadn't didn't realize that the world could work this way, right? 00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:04.950 Uh whereas regret, um, it's it's what I've been, you know, wondering, it's a little 00:59:04.950 --> 00:59:09.190 tough because there's already some good work, I think, on things like shame and these other 00:59:09.190 --> 00:59:14.870 emotions that um, you know, the the function of those seems to be maybe when we've done 00:59:14.870 --> 00:59:16.870 some bad thing or guilt, right? 00:59:17.110 --> 00:59:20.070 Um, but those are all kind of in the social world, like when we've done something that will 00:59:20.070 --> 00:59:24.230 get us socially devalued or we'll have not valued somebody else well enough. 00:59:24.550 --> 00:59:30.360 I've been wondering a little bit if really the unique thing about regret is that we've made 00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:32.440 this decision, there's been an outcome. 00:59:32.600 --> 00:59:38.520 Uh, and at least my like anecdotal experience on this, that first flash of regret, 00:59:38.680 --> 00:59:41.800 right, is I'm not sure if this was the right decision. 00:59:42.040 --> 00:59:42.520 Right. 00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:48.680 And I'm actually wondering if there's something there with what real regret is, is that 00:59:48.690 --> 00:59:53.090 it's sort of an initial like you have to figure out was this the right decision? 00:59:53.250 --> 00:59:58.130 Because you you either didn't have time to know in advance or you didn't just you couldn't 00:59:58.130 --> 01:00:00.050 have the information until you did the thing, right? 01:00:00.290 --> 01:00:03.570 Because the information just wasn't going to be there till you did the thing. 01:00:03.890 --> 01:00:09.820 And then part of what regret might function to do is to help you figure out what was that 01:00:09.820 --> 01:00:10.220 the right thing? 01:00:10.300 --> 01:00:11.100 Was that not the right thing? 01:00:11.180 --> 01:00:12.780 What were the other things I could have done? 01:00:13.260 --> 01:00:17.340 Uh sh you know, talking to people, the hey, hey, well, what do you think? 01:00:17.420 --> 01:00:22.460 You know, getting that feedback about was I right here, right? 01:00:22.620 --> 01:00:24.700 Was that the best decision I could have made? 01:00:24.940 --> 01:00:29.580 And to the extent you get the, you know, both feedback from simulating all the alternatives 01:00:29.740 --> 01:00:35.340 or from seeking information or whatever it is, if you get the information back 01:00:35.500 --> 01:00:39.910 that, no, that you made the best decision you could under the circumstance, regret should 01:00:39.910 --> 01:00:40.950 dissipate, right? 01:00:41.350 --> 01:00:45.510 But to the extent you get the information that no, like an alternative would have been 01:00:45.510 --> 01:00:49.270 better, it might then turn into one of these other emotions, right? 01:00:49.510 --> 01:00:53.510 So if I've done something that I'm going to be socially devalued for, regret, and I now 01:00:53.510 --> 01:00:56.070 realize that that's that's what it is, right? 01:00:56.230 --> 01:00:58.390 That regret should transform into shame. 01:00:58.630 --> 01:01:02.390 If I've done something where I've realized, oh, I've made a decision now that screwed 01:01:02.390 --> 01:01:06.380 somebody else over that I shouldn't have screwed over, that regret will transform into 01:01:06.380 --> 01:01:06.780 guilt. 01:01:06.940 --> 01:01:07.260 Right. 01:01:07.500 --> 01:01:11.980 And so it might regret might be that thing that to like feed into some of those other 01:01:11.980 --> 01:01:17.420 emotions, but it's that initial like having to figure out, oh, is that the right thing that 01:01:17.420 --> 01:01:18.140 I was supposed to do? 01:01:18.220 --> 01:01:22.860 And that might be the that unique thing about regret that hasn't been captured, I think, 01:01:22.940 --> 01:01:25.020 yet, um, from a functional perspective. 01:01:25.100 --> 01:01:26.540 And that's the kind of adaptive problem. 01:01:26.620 --> 01:01:28.940 Like you couldn't have known until you made the decision. 01:01:29.100 --> 01:01:32.300 And now you have the new information from having made the decision. 01:01:32.540 --> 01:01:34.750 And maybe you'll seek out some more information. 01:01:35.310 --> 01:01:36.510 Was it the right decision? 01:01:36.590 --> 01:01:39.470 And then now deploy other emotions functionally. 01:01:40.590 --> 01:01:45.230 I love that because it also explains what I I've never heard an explanation for is buyer's 01:01:45.390 --> 01:01:46.030 regret. 01:01:46.270 --> 01:01:46.510 Right. 01:01:46.670 --> 01:01:50.270 Which is that once you've committed to something like an expensive house or like you know 01:01:50.590 --> 01:01:56.110 marrying somebody, you know, it's it's this registering of I've committed to a very 01:01:56.430 --> 01:01:58.190 high cost thing. 01:01:58.430 --> 01:02:03.060 And your carry, your description of what the function of regret is, it it perfectly 01:02:03.060 --> 01:02:07.780 explains why that would be, which is that it's it's not even that you've noticed a problem. 01:02:07.940 --> 01:02:13.620 It's that just just all the percolations of the full weight of the costs, and this is real. 01:02:13.700 --> 01:02:16.180 And I'm gonna buy this house, I'm gonna marry this person. 01:02:16.420 --> 01:02:20.100 All of a sudden there's like this this thing of like we feel like we're doing the stupid 01:02:20.100 --> 01:02:24.660 thing of like just running the counterfactuals of did I make a mistake? 01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:29.700 And that's actually a really good design per the design you're suggesting, which is it's 01:02:29.860 --> 01:02:33.150 motivating search for information. 01:02:33.710 --> 01:02:38.510 Did are were there better alternatives for something like you don't get buyers' regret for 01:02:38.590 --> 01:02:40.750 like a pack of gum because it's so low cost? 01:02:40.910 --> 01:02:46.350 But this the I really like this idea that for high cost things, it's it's the hallucination 01:02:46.750 --> 01:02:50.670 or it's the auto generation of regret simply by virtue of just being so high cost. 01:02:50.750 --> 01:02:52.270 I love I like that a lot. 01:02:52.670 --> 01:02:58.000 And I I wonder too, you know, with with some of these high cost things, I, you know, I I 01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:03.120 think a lot in evolutionary mismatch terms these days, sometimes just because I'm so hyper 01:03:03.200 --> 01:03:07.440 aware of uh, you know, the world we live in and the people we're studying. 01:03:07.520 --> 01:03:11.920 And and, you know, are potential counterfactuals for some things now. 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.680 I I mean they just can be endless. 01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:18.560 And I think some of that is might be somewhat evolutionarily novel, right? 01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:21.830 That, you know, I'm not choosing between three potential mates. 01:03:21.910 --> 01:03:25.510 I choosing between an endless array of potential mates, right? 01:03:25.590 --> 01:03:28.870 I mean, I can run the I could get lost in running forever. 01:03:29.030 --> 01:03:32.150 What if I had picked this person or I picked this person or I picked this person or I had 01:03:32.230 --> 01:03:33.350 picked this person, right? 01:03:33.510 --> 01:03:35.030 And the same with the houses, right? 01:03:35.190 --> 01:03:38.470 Like I'm not picking between the two potential areas. 01:03:38.550 --> 01:03:39.990 I could have built my house, maybe, right? 01:03:40.070 --> 01:03:40.310 I don't know. 01:03:40.550 --> 01:03:43.190 Well, maybe in Santa Barb in Santa Barbara, it's just like the EA. 01:03:43.430 --> 01:03:45.110 It's like this is gonna be your house or nothing. 01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:46.680 Fair enough. 01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:47.640 But no, it's fair. 01:03:47.720 --> 01:03:48.520 Yeah, yeah, no, totally. 01:03:48.680 --> 01:03:49.400 But I mean fair enough. 01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:50.040 Where I am too. 01:03:50.120 --> 01:03:52.840 We're we're perpetually absolutely not everywhere. 01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:53.480 No, no, no. 01:03:53.560 --> 01:03:54.120 But point taken. 01:03:54.200 --> 01:03:54.280 Yeah. 01:03:54.520 --> 01:03:58.680 But but I but I but then I wonder too with the extent to which I mean it makes it so we're 01:03:58.680 --> 01:04:03.640 a wonderful uh set of people then to try to study this and measure this because we can 01:04:03.640 --> 01:04:05.160 endlessly counterfactual, right? 01:04:05.240 --> 01:04:09.960 If you had people for whom uh there aren't alternatives, right, you would expect no regret 01:04:10.170 --> 01:04:13.690 if there aren't viable alternatives or very quick regret, right? 01:04:13.770 --> 01:04:16.810 You'd you'd flash the the counterfactual, right? 01:04:16.890 --> 01:04:18.970 And you'd be like, well, that was the only other option. 01:04:19.130 --> 01:04:19.850 I'm good. 01:04:20.090 --> 01:04:20.410 Right. 01:04:20.490 --> 01:04:20.650 Yeah. 01:04:20.970 --> 01:04:26.090 But but we are we are people who for whom that could just you could get caught in that 01:04:26.090 --> 01:04:26.970 forever, right? 01:04:27.050 --> 01:04:30.650 Um on certain of these very high cost decisions that we make. 01:04:30.890 --> 01:04:33.770 And so we might be the people then to study these in this stuff in. 01:04:34.380 --> 01:04:40.220 Would you then predict that um you'd see um a correlation between mate 01:04:40.220 --> 01:04:45.980 value and mating regret, such that if I'm a higher mate value person, I have more 01:04:45.980 --> 01:04:49.100 counterfactual mating opportunities that I could have pursued. 01:04:49.340 --> 01:04:54.380 Whereas if I'm uh and so if I commit to any one of those paths, then there are going to be 01:04:54.380 --> 01:04:58.140 more potential paths that I could have taken and and more potential for me to feel regret. 01:04:58.300 --> 01:05:01.740 But if I'm a low mate value person and I then there's really just like is this person or 01:05:01.740 --> 01:05:06.310 nothing, then uh I'm much less likely to feel regret in that case because there weren't any 01:05:06.310 --> 01:05:07.590 c other counterfactuals. 01:05:07.750 --> 01:05:09.190 Maybe I might feel disappointed. 01:05:09.510 --> 01:05:13.510 But but the but regret is is not gonna uh necessarily come into play. 01:05:13.590 --> 01:05:15.110 Would would you make that prediction? 01:05:15.430 --> 01:05:17.510 That's uh I I think I might. 01:05:17.910 --> 01:05:21.910 And that's a nice one because it's not, you know, on its face, I don't think it's what 01:05:21.910 --> 01:05:23.350 people people would think, right? 01:05:23.510 --> 01:05:27.270 They'd be like, oh the people who have options shouldn't be regretful, right? 01:05:27.430 --> 01:05:29.640 But that's precisely what it's predicting. 01:05:29.720 --> 01:05:31.640 They have so many options, right? 01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:34.760 That they have real viable alternatives. 01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:39.480 Um, and that might be a little bit how I I think about it, as as that part of meat value of 01:05:39.560 --> 01:05:41.880 of your potential alternatives, right? 01:05:41.960 --> 01:05:44.680 Your alternative options, your alternative choices. 01:05:44.920 --> 01:05:46.280 Um yeah, that's cool. 01:05:46.520 --> 01:05:46.600 Yeah. 01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:51.370 So, David, like that would be uh so a strong uh example of that would be something like 01:05:51.370 --> 01:05:55.930 you're in a very small scale social world and you commit to a partner and then you're 01:05:55.930 --> 01:06:00.410 transported to another social world soon after where there's a lot more options that your 01:06:00.650 --> 01:06:03.610 evolved psychology is like, oh, this would have been a better person. 01:06:03.850 --> 01:06:06.090 And so then you sort of feel regret. 01:06:06.650 --> 01:06:07.290 Yeah. 01:06:08.570 --> 01:06:09.450 That's interesting. 01:06:09.690 --> 01:06:14.490 I mean, I'm wondering if if there may be something, some kind of interaction between mate 01:06:14.490 --> 01:06:17.930 value and gender in predicting these gender differences. 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:22.560 Um, because you know, I I've been reading statistic statistics on, you know, like these 01:06:22.560 --> 01:06:26.240 hookup apps, like men are way more common on these hookup apps than women. 01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:30.720 Um, and there are just, you know, more men competing on the even just the regular dating 01:06:30.720 --> 01:06:34.400 apps, I think, they're just more men just like looking for a mate than than women. 01:06:34.560 --> 01:06:39.440 Um, and so it could be that women just have more options just by virtue of being a woman. 01:06:39.990 --> 01:06:45.350 And that might be contributing to this to this uh gender difference in regret uh because 01:06:45.350 --> 01:06:47.030 women just have more sexual options. 01:06:47.190 --> 01:06:50.070 There are more willing men who are willing to have sex with them. 01:06:50.150 --> 01:06:54.310 Uh and committing to any one of them is going to lead to more regret because they have more 01:06:54.310 --> 01:06:54.630 options. 01:06:54.790 --> 01:06:58.310 But you know, for uh for a man, that that might be a different case. 01:06:58.470 --> 01:07:02.150 Um I don't know if i if if if you thought about that or if that makes sense to you. 01:07:02.710 --> 01:07:03.270 Makes sense to me. 01:07:03.350 --> 01:07:06.870 And I mean I think it's also I mean, I do think there's something there, and this is in the 01:07:06.870 --> 01:07:12.080 kind of literature on regret about the there are probably more costs potentially to women, 01:07:12.160 --> 01:07:15.440 you know, whatever the outcome, if we're talking casual sex, let's say, yeah. 01:07:15.600 --> 01:07:18.080 Um, there's potentially right more costs for women. 01:07:18.240 --> 01:07:23.440 And so that also sets it up there when, oh, you know, for men the the costs often are just 01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:24.960 going to just be low, right? 01:07:25.200 --> 01:07:29.040 So whatever the alternatives are weren't going to be more costly, right? 01:07:29.200 --> 01:07:33.120 So that explains I I think there's something there, certainly. 01:07:33.280 --> 01:07:37.770 Um, but I think your point also, you know, toggling that too, that that might, that that 01:07:37.770 --> 01:07:39.050 might also, that would also make sense. 01:07:39.130 --> 01:07:41.290 That would also fit in that model as well. 01:07:41.530 --> 01:07:46.570 Um, there's the other piece of it too for women that to the extent that 01:07:46.810 --> 01:07:52.810 there's any reputational concerns, right, for having engaged in casual sex, right? 01:07:53.210 --> 01:07:59.080 Um whether or not she it was actually costly. 01:08:00.200 --> 01:08:05.000 Um, if it's a casual sexual relationship that didn't turn into a long-term relationship, 01:08:05.080 --> 01:08:08.760 uh, this is in your world of sort of the the the propaganda, right? 01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:11.560 It's it might benefit her to say she regretted it, right? 01:08:11.640 --> 01:08:11.960 Yeah. 01:08:12.360 --> 01:08:18.280 Um, even if, right, to as a as a signaling to others, oh, that's not 01:08:18.280 --> 01:08:21.160 the type of thing that I do or that I like doing, right? 01:08:21.320 --> 01:08:21.480 Yeah. 01:08:21.720 --> 01:08:24.910 And so I've thought about that too with the existing literature on this, right? 01:08:24.990 --> 01:08:26.430 To this sex difference, right? 01:08:26.510 --> 01:08:31.470 Is it is it a a difference in what I'm thinking here, this functional side of things, 01:08:31.630 --> 01:08:36.910 versus a difference in what people will say about their casual sexual experiences that that 01:08:36.990 --> 01:08:38.110 of course I regretted it. 01:08:38.190 --> 01:08:38.350 Right. 01:08:38.430 --> 01:08:38.910 Oh, right. 01:08:38.990 --> 01:08:39.150 Yeah. 01:08:39.230 --> 01:08:42.830 If if I'm reporting this some way, I'm going to say that it was, it was because that's not 01:08:42.830 --> 01:08:43.390 what I do. 01:08:43.470 --> 01:08:43.710 Right. 01:08:43.950 --> 01:08:44.190 Right. 01:08:44.350 --> 01:08:44.590 Yeah. 01:08:44.750 --> 01:08:44.910 Yeah. 01:08:45.150 --> 01:08:49.310 In the same way that you know a criminal is incentivized to say that he regrets the crime 01:08:49.310 --> 01:08:51.080 he committed to the parole board, right? 01:08:51.160 --> 01:08:52.600 Even if he doesn't actually regret it. 01:08:52.680 --> 01:08:54.840 You know, he has an incentive to say that he regrets it. 01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:59.080 And it could be that if women face greater reputational costs for having uh you know 01:08:59.240 --> 01:09:03.800 short-term casual sex, um, then then they're they're facing the same incentive as the 01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:05.800 criminal of you know talking to the parole board. 01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:09.400 They want to say that they really regret it and they'll they'll be different uh in the 01:09:09.400 --> 01:09:09.800 future. 01:09:09.880 --> 01:09:13.400 Uh and that could be that those kind of social reputational incentives might be might be 01:09:13.400 --> 01:09:14.440 driving this as well. 01:09:15.630 --> 01:09:15.870 Yeah. 01:09:15.950 --> 01:09:20.190 And so that's that's a tough thing in this to try to tease out to the for for testing some 01:09:20.190 --> 01:09:20.910 of this, right? 01:09:21.070 --> 01:09:26.750 Is that if I'm if the the adaptation I'm arguing, you know, the design of the 01:09:26.750 --> 01:09:29.230 adaptation as what I sort of described, right? 01:09:29.310 --> 01:09:34.430 I have to be able to get at that separate from uh, you know, especially in this realm, how 01:09:34.430 --> 01:09:39.070 people might be motivated to represent their feelings about the outcome, right? 01:09:39.470 --> 01:09:40.030 It's interesting. 01:09:40.270 --> 01:09:40.510 Yeah. 01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:46.280 You could also make a lot of interesting predictions on um the receiver end of the 01:09:46.280 --> 01:09:46.680 equation. 01:09:46.840 --> 01:09:50.520 So how do I view someone who feels regret versus disappointment? 01:09:50.840 --> 01:09:55.560 So if I'm you know evaluating someone as a mate and they regret the the casual sex that 01:09:55.560 --> 01:10:00.120 they had versus they were disappointed in the casual sex they had, what inferences am I am 01:10:00.120 --> 01:10:01.960 I likely to draw about that person in either case? 01:10:02.120 --> 01:10:06.190 It may be that um I'm I'm gonna be more interested in in mating with the person if they 01:10:06.190 --> 01:10:07.710 feel regret versus disappointment. 01:10:07.870 --> 01:10:11.630 Maybe disappointment is is a bad thing for them to feel because that maybe that suggests 01:10:11.630 --> 01:10:14.590 that they have really high standards that I'm not going to meet. 01:10:14.750 --> 01:10:18.990 Uh and so maybe if if they felt disappointed about that, maybe that's you know more of a 01:10:18.990 --> 01:10:20.430 cost or more of a downside for me. 01:10:20.510 --> 01:10:22.750 But if they feel regret, then maybe that's maybe that's good. 01:10:22.830 --> 01:10:26.990 Maybe they'll be um maybe they'll they're motivated to behave differently with me. 01:10:27.150 --> 01:10:32.980 Um and so the type of inferences we draw based on the emotions that people feel uh is also 01:10:32.980 --> 01:10:34.740 an interesting thing to look at. 01:10:35.220 --> 01:10:36.180 Yeah, that's interesting. 01:10:36.260 --> 01:10:36.500 Yeah. 01:10:36.580 --> 01:10:39.860 I don't know of, I mean, certainly I think there's some literature that has asked, you 01:10:39.860 --> 01:10:44.740 know, that gets at what people want to know about past partners, but I I don't know that 01:10:44.740 --> 01:10:47.060 any of it's gotten at this kind of thing, right? 01:10:47.220 --> 01:10:52.290 Um and and drawing those kind of, you know, your, you know your disappointment in your 01:10:52.290 --> 01:10:57.810 regret of of those relationships and what people are then intuiting from that that's that's 01:10:57.810 --> 01:11:02.930 cool yeah there's a song lyric Love Hurts right um and I don't know if that's about the 01:11:02.930 --> 01:11:07.490 breakup I assume it is like there's a whole you know there's this really strong feeling I 01:11:07.490 --> 01:11:12.290 mean I'm I'm I'm almost probabilistically most people have experienced a romantic breakup 01:11:12.370 --> 01:11:15.410 whether it's you know dating or or marriage or or whatever. 01:11:15.570 --> 01:11:21.520 Um but uh you know, I wonder, and I don't know, Carrie, you can tell me if there's work on 01:11:21.520 --> 01:11:25.280 this, but you know, there's also the question of what is that pain or grief doing, you 01:11:25.280 --> 01:11:30.000 know, like from the perspective of like somebody dying, that's sort of uh it's 01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:32.880 recalibrating that this person's no longer there. 01:11:33.040 --> 01:11:37.840 And so all of the sort of settings in me need to be changed that this person isn't there. 01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:42.160 You know, it's an it's a provoking an opportunity to maybe coordinate with other people 01:11:42.160 --> 01:11:43.360 about that too. 01:11:43.520 --> 01:11:49.310 Um, obviously, because there is love and sexual 01:11:49.310 --> 01:11:54.750 arousal involved in a romantic relationship, that's all doing this calibrational work. 01:11:54.830 --> 01:11:59.870 And so when it goes wrong, you have a breakup, it's undoing some of those calibrations. 01:12:00.030 --> 01:12:04.350 But I also wonder if some of the work it's doing too is also going to affect then like 01:12:04.350 --> 01:12:06.910 disappointment and regret, too, right? 01:12:07.070 --> 01:12:12.910 In the sense of if you're disappointed because you sort of had too high of expectations. 01:12:13.150 --> 01:12:17.360 I mean, there's some sense in which you know a breakup is sort of like the ultimate 01:12:17.360 --> 01:12:18.320 disappointment. 01:12:18.480 --> 01:12:22.080 Um uh maybe not regret, but but depending. 01:12:22.160 --> 01:12:27.360 But but it's sort of like it's it's like hyper disappointment in the sense of it's it's uh 01:12:27.440 --> 01:12:31.040 it's almost leading to this like depressive state where there's recalibration. 01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:35.830 Well, and I think when you look in the breakups literature, there's so there's there, 01:12:35.910 --> 01:12:40.310 there's the sudden breakups versus the it's been long time coming coming breakups, right? 01:12:40.470 --> 01:12:42.950 And there's you know kind of everything in between that, right? 01:12:43.270 --> 01:12:49.270 Um, and uh there's sort of different different pieces of this, but I I 01:12:49.270 --> 01:12:55.270 had one um unpublished master's thesis from a student that where we looked at this idea 01:12:55.510 --> 01:13:00.700 of um um sort of the opposite of mate retention behaviors, but mate disengagement 01:13:00.700 --> 01:13:01.260 behaviors. 01:13:01.660 --> 01:13:01.980 Right. 01:13:02.220 --> 01:13:06.140 And it was from this sort of person, I wasn't quite there with this disappointment idea or 01:13:06.140 --> 01:13:11.740 anything, but but this idea of, you know, if if you're in a 01:13:11.740 --> 01:13:14.460 position where you would like to end this relationship, right? 01:13:14.620 --> 01:13:19.740 Just ending it abruptly, right, is going to be costly for lots of people for lots of 01:13:19.740 --> 01:13:19.900 reasons. 01:13:19.980 --> 01:13:23.100 Like it might benefit you because you get out of it sooner, but there's costs. 01:13:23.340 --> 01:13:25.900 The people who do the breakup are seen as worse. 01:13:26.050 --> 01:13:28.450 Um, so there's you know kind of data on that. 01:13:28.690 --> 01:13:32.210 Um, and then you also have this person that you you might have shared investments with and 01:13:32.210 --> 01:13:33.250 that you do care about, right? 01:13:33.330 --> 01:13:37.330 That like it will cause this extra harm and cost to, right, if it is sudden. 01:13:37.410 --> 01:13:42.290 And so there might be some, you know, behaviors that you do, things you do to to slowly 01:13:42.290 --> 01:13:42.770 ramp down. 01:13:42.930 --> 01:13:47.410 So instead of the ramping up of the, but it's the that slowly ramping it down so that when 01:13:47.410 --> 01:13:53.170 that dissolution happens, it's not as as much of a recalibration they're gonna have to do, 01:13:53.250 --> 01:13:53.490 right? 01:13:53.570 --> 01:13:57.140 It's already been that you've things have become disentangled, right? 01:13:57.700 --> 01:14:02.660 Um and versus the ones where does that is it comes out of nowhere, right? 01:14:02.820 --> 01:14:07.700 That's when I would expect that that str that that you know that depression that I mean 01:14:07.780 --> 01:14:12.180 those things to happen because you're right, somebody is going from I thought we were 01:14:12.180 --> 01:14:18.100 highly intertwined here, but now I'm not, versus there was that that dialing 01:14:18.100 --> 01:14:21.060 down of everything um before that separation. 01:14:21.300 --> 01:14:21.940 Yeah. 01:14:23.150 --> 01:14:23.870 Interesting. 01:14:24.110 --> 01:14:24.510 Yeah. 01:14:24.670 --> 01:14:30.110 I mean, uh it seems like, you know, anger might come into play as well, where if you're, 01:14:30.190 --> 01:14:33.870 you know, breaking up with someone out of the blue or ghosting them or whatever, it's 01:14:33.870 --> 01:14:39.470 almost kind of like they're um they're not treating you fairly or properly, that they're 01:14:39.470 --> 01:14:44.430 not respecting your uh they're not respecting you adequately or or treating you with um a 01:14:44.430 --> 01:14:47.800 welfare trade-off ratio that is sensitive to your needs. 01:14:47.960 --> 01:14:51.800 So if if I'm, you know, leading you on and then totally blowing you off, I'm imposing a 01:14:51.800 --> 01:14:53.720 cost on you for a really low benefit to me. 01:14:53.800 --> 01:14:57.800 Like maybe I I, you know, I learned that you know you're not for me and that's the benefit 01:14:57.800 --> 01:14:58.040 I get. 01:14:58.120 --> 01:14:59.320 It's a pretty small benefit. 01:14:59.480 --> 01:15:03.320 But it's a huge cost on you uh for me to get that small benefit. 01:15:03.400 --> 01:15:06.040 And that might trigger the anger system as well. 01:15:07.320 --> 01:15:08.040 That would make sense. 01:15:08.120 --> 01:15:08.280 Yeah. 01:15:08.360 --> 01:15:11.080 And I think that's, I mean, it's it's pretty consistent there. 01:15:11.160 --> 01:15:15.210 Um, I think with the the literature I do know on breakups, you know, anger is one of the 01:15:15.210 --> 01:15:18.650 things that that certainly like the people who are dumped, right? 01:15:18.730 --> 01:15:20.170 Um, absolutely feel. 01:15:20.330 --> 01:15:22.890 Um, and this is how I would expect it to toggle though, right? 01:15:22.970 --> 01:15:26.490 That to the extent that there had been ramping down, right? 01:15:26.570 --> 01:15:32.410 Um, although I don't know, because it still might be, you know, you're not that's that WTR 01:15:32.410 --> 01:15:36.170 signaling is still that you aren't valuing me the way that I thought I should have been 01:15:36.170 --> 01:15:36.810 valued. 01:15:37.050 --> 01:15:42.940 Um, but yeah, uh, and then you know, the guilt on the side of the the the breaker 01:15:43.020 --> 01:15:48.700 upper right um you know uh how much that is them you know to the 01:15:48.700 --> 01:15:52.860 extent that i would imagine that if they've done these ramping things down they should feel 01:15:52.860 --> 01:15:58.140 less guilty than if they cut it off right really you know out of nowhere for this other 01:15:58.140 --> 01:16:02.220 person interesting yeah I mean it's a different I mean the the the challenge of breaking up 01:16:02.220 --> 01:16:06.670 with someone is a pretty huge adaptive challenge that there are a lot of different 01:16:06.670 --> 01:16:07.710 strategies you could take. 01:16:07.790 --> 01:16:10.430 And just that as a topic, I think, is really understudied. 01:16:10.510 --> 01:16:14.750 But it seems like a really fraught situation with uh that that can be really risky. 01:16:14.830 --> 01:16:18.430 Like if you do a poor job of breaking up with someone, you could like make an enemy. 01:16:18.510 --> 01:16:22.910 Uh, and that's really bad for you to have an enemy in your social world, especially if they 01:16:22.910 --> 01:16:26.510 could turn other people against you, if it damages your reputation, uh, if they come after 01:16:26.510 --> 01:16:29.310 you, uh, you know, either verbally or or physically or whatever. 01:16:29.470 --> 01:16:34.620 It's a really fraught situation to break up with someone and and handling that uh well, I 01:16:34.620 --> 01:16:37.900 think pro would have plausibly been a a selection pressure. 01:16:38.140 --> 01:16:41.740 Um and so yeah, I I I I think that's a really interesting topic. 01:16:41.980 --> 01:16:46.860 Yeah, Karen Perilou has a paper from I don't know, twenty ten ish. 01:16:46.940 --> 01:16:47.180 I don't know. 01:16:47.260 --> 01:16:51.340 It's but that is about, you know, the the the um some of this stuff. 01:16:51.500 --> 01:16:55.420 This, you know, how people perceive uh the person who does the breaking up versus the 01:16:55.420 --> 01:16:59.420 person who's broken up with, and it talks about these different costs to to being the 01:16:59.420 --> 01:17:00.220 dumper, right? 01:17:00.300 --> 01:17:04.770 And and doing uh and especially if you're yeah, especially if your social networks are 01:17:04.770 --> 01:17:07.490 intertwined with the person you're breaking up with that could have huge social 01:17:07.490 --> 01:17:10.930 ramifications if you do a poor job uh of ending that relationship. 01:17:11.250 --> 01:17:13.090 Social networks, the kin networks, right? 01:17:13.250 --> 01:17:14.770 Depending on how that's worked, right? 01:17:14.850 --> 01:17:17.890 And how long you've been together and how intertwined all of that is, right? 01:17:18.370 --> 01:17:21.010 The ramifications are could be quite costly. 01:17:21.090 --> 01:17:26.460 And so that um, you know, the that was w again in this unpublished master's thesis that 01:17:26.700 --> 01:17:28.140 maybe at some point it will see the light of day. 01:17:28.220 --> 01:17:29.900 But this is sort of what we were looking at, right? 01:17:29.980 --> 01:17:35.420 Was these different potential strategies and tactics that people might have to to do this 01:17:35.420 --> 01:17:36.540 breaking up, right? 01:17:36.700 --> 01:17:41.260 Um, and some of it was uh, you know, the withdrawing of investment. 01:17:41.340 --> 01:17:45.900 Um, but some of it was also like doing things to make yourself seem like less of a good 01:17:45.900 --> 01:17:49.190 partner to be with, like so that they wouldn't, right? 01:17:49.270 --> 01:17:53.350 It's like, oh, if I'm no longer representing my like, you know, if if I am if I'm now 01:17:53.350 --> 01:17:56.550 schlubby and like I wouldn't be somebody you want to be with, right? 01:17:56.630 --> 01:17:59.990 Then like then you are disinte, you know, you're less interested, right? 01:18:00.070 --> 01:18:01.910 And I could functionally do that, right? 01:18:02.150 --> 01:18:05.110 And then some of it was you know inflicting costs on the partner, things like that. 01:18:05.270 --> 01:18:11.160 So there's the different uh different sort of uh categories we had of these potential 01:18:11.160 --> 01:18:13.000 ways to to disentangle yourself. 01:18:13.080 --> 01:18:17.320 And we did find that they were um the use of those was associated with relationship 01:18:17.320 --> 01:18:17.880 satisfaction. 01:18:17.960 --> 01:18:22.360 So people who were lower in relationship satisfaction were doing more of those things. 01:18:22.760 --> 01:18:28.440 And that was sort of consistent with our idea that this might be this this uh mate mate 01:18:28.440 --> 01:18:31.800 ejection sort of strategies that were happening. 01:18:32.290 --> 01:18:32.610 Right. 01:18:32.770 --> 01:18:38.290 It's almost like, you know, withdrawing from the relationship abruptly is imposing a huge 01:18:38.290 --> 01:18:39.090 cost on you. 01:18:39.250 --> 01:18:43.490 But if I make the relationship itself undesirable for you, then it's no longer a cost to 01:18:43.490 --> 01:18:43.570 you. 01:18:43.650 --> 01:18:45.970 It's actually a benefit for you to leave the relationship. 01:18:46.130 --> 01:18:49.810 So you're you're transforming something that would have otherwise been really uh anger 01:18:49.810 --> 01:18:53.570 inducing into something that, you know, might be sad or disappointing, but not necessarily 01:18:53.570 --> 01:18:58.290 anger inducing because it's it's no longer a cost for or as big of a cost for them to end 01:18:58.290 --> 01:19:01.330 the relationship if you yourself are a less desirable partner. 01:19:01.800 --> 01:19:03.080 Um that's interesting. 01:19:03.320 --> 01:19:08.200 I mean, and it could be, you know, it it may explain some of these like fights between 01:19:08.200 --> 01:19:10.200 couples that aren't really about anything. 01:19:10.440 --> 01:19:14.920 You know, like uh, you know, if if I'm you know dissatisfied with the relationship, I want 01:19:14.920 --> 01:19:19.080 to ramp it down, I might just be more, you know, grumpy and annoying and like pick fights 01:19:19.080 --> 01:19:23.650 about about the dishes or whatever, just to make the relationship more unpleasant as a way 01:19:23.650 --> 01:19:25.010 of kind of ramping down. 01:19:25.090 --> 01:19:30.050 Uh and it could be that these these these kind of fights about mundane irrelevant things 01:19:30.050 --> 01:19:35.490 are are really not about the irrelevant thing itself, but about, you know, uh some deeper 01:19:35.570 --> 01:19:37.730 uh dissatisfaction with the relationship. 01:19:38.050 --> 01:19:38.290 Yeah. 01:19:38.370 --> 01:19:42.610 And if you do it well enough, you get them to break up with you and then there they 01:19:42.610 --> 01:19:44.290 experience the costs of being the dumper. 01:19:44.370 --> 01:19:44.610 Yeah. 01:19:44.770 --> 01:19:49.090 And when that was, you know, what the what the underlying goal was the whole time. 01:19:49.410 --> 01:19:49.970 Yeah. 01:19:50.380 --> 01:19:51.180 Really interesting. 01:19:51.420 --> 01:19:51.740 Yeah. 01:19:51.980 --> 01:19:54.300 There's also uh this thing about breakups. 01:19:54.380 --> 01:19:58.460 It reminds me of sort of like adolescence too, where there's like all this thing with even 01:19:58.460 --> 01:20:01.340 prior to like any relationship, there's sort of like who are you dating? 01:20:01.500 --> 01:20:03.020 No, who broke up with who? 01:20:03.180 --> 01:20:08.700 It's almost like practice for um for for these social costs of who 01:20:08.860 --> 01:20:13.740 likes who, what are the social costs and benefits of that being common knowledge, who broke 01:20:13.740 --> 01:20:14.220 up with who. 01:20:14.380 --> 01:20:16.380 And some of it is like hallucinated, right? 01:20:16.460 --> 01:20:20.450 Where like, you know, the trope is sort of the girls especially like the guys don't even 01:20:20.450 --> 01:20:22.770 know and they're like, Oh, well, no, you sat next to me. 01:20:22.850 --> 01:20:25.330 So we were and now you're not gonna talk to me. 01:20:25.410 --> 01:20:28.690 And it's like the girls talking to the girls like doing their, you know, three dimensional 01:20:28.690 --> 01:20:31.330 social chess and the guys are like, you know, playing yo yo. 01:20:31.570 --> 01:20:33.730 I mean, yeah, but but that's sort of a trope. 01:20:33.810 --> 01:20:35.490 And I I don't know if there's been research on that. 01:20:35.890 --> 01:20:37.410 My middle school flashbacks. 01:20:37.570 --> 01:20:42.140 Um well, I was gonna say for the, you know, some of this this lifespan mating idea. 01:20:42.220 --> 01:20:45.900 I think, you know, for ethical reasons, we start at 18 often. 01:20:45.980 --> 01:20:46.220 Yeah. 01:20:46.620 --> 01:20:51.100 Um, but but and there have been some studies that have looked at a little bit of sort of 01:20:51.100 --> 01:20:55.980 like attraction and these things in in people under the age of 18, but but for very 01:20:55.980 --> 01:21:00.860 reasonable ethical reasons, we right, you know, we we start at 18, but we are we're missing 01:21:00.860 --> 01:21:03.990 out, I think, on a lot of of this, right? 01:21:04.150 --> 01:21:08.550 How much of that is sort of practice for later, how much of that is establishing some of 01:21:08.550 --> 01:21:12.950 these things like social value or mate value or these sorts of things early on, right? 01:21:13.190 --> 01:21:13.350 Right. 01:21:13.510 --> 01:21:15.430 Um, and and how to navigate that. 01:21:15.510 --> 01:21:19.750 Um, and and yeah, why is it so insane in seventh grade, right? 01:21:19.910 --> 01:21:24.950 Why is why does that seem to reach a peak that of of exactly what you're talking about, 01:21:25.110 --> 01:21:25.270 right? 01:21:25.430 --> 01:21:28.230 Oh, they sat next to who and they're on, right? 01:21:28.310 --> 01:21:29.030 And all that. 01:21:29.220 --> 01:21:34.820 Um, I think it's uh to me, I think a good um some good evolutionary work on on that uh 01:21:34.980 --> 01:21:36.020 would be really interesting. 01:21:36.100 --> 01:21:41.380 It it's the challenge though of of studying some of those things in in children, right? 01:21:41.860 --> 01:21:45.060 Um but it's uh it it it's cool questions. 01:21:45.220 --> 01:21:45.460 Yeah. 01:21:45.700 --> 01:21:45.860 Yeah. 01:21:45.940 --> 01:21:49.700 And also, I mean, just even aside from the I mean I'm not sure how much of that is even 01:21:49.770 --> 01:21:51.850 sexual, like a lot of it is just sort of fictive. 01:21:51.930 --> 01:21:54.890 Like, again, it's almost like the the play, but there's this other part too. 01:21:54.970 --> 01:21:59.610 When you're talking about regret and disappointment, we we are all parents here. 01:21:59.770 --> 01:22:03.130 Like, this is also a problem um for kids. 01:22:03.290 --> 01:22:05.690 Like, kids are disappointed all the time. 01:22:06.090 --> 01:22:07.370 And it makes complete sense. 01:22:07.450 --> 01:22:11.290 Like, it follows from this idea that, like, you don't know what the world is like. 01:22:11.500 --> 01:22:17.420 So, like this this thing of like this wild emotions of like elation or disappointment, it 01:22:17.420 --> 01:22:23.180 makes sense that kids especially are feeling these a lot precisely 01:22:23.180 --> 01:22:25.420 because you don't know what the world is like. 01:22:26.460 --> 01:22:29.100 Well, and it's it's so this is that's such a great point. 01:22:29.260 --> 01:22:31.900 Um my daughter's two and a half, right? 01:22:32.060 --> 01:22:34.270 So we're yes, Yeah, yeah. 01:22:34.430 --> 01:22:35.870 The emotions all the time. 01:22:36.110 --> 01:22:41.470 But I I'll think about times where she is very upset about something because we didn't do 01:22:41.470 --> 01:22:43.870 this thing the same way we did it the last time. 01:22:44.110 --> 01:22:47.630 And it's really because her expectations have been set by that one instance. 01:22:47.710 --> 01:22:47.950 Yeah. 01:22:48.110 --> 01:22:48.350 Right. 01:22:48.750 --> 01:22:51.710 She, I mean, as those priors are being built, right? 01:22:51.870 --> 01:22:52.750 That was the one. 01:22:52.910 --> 01:22:56.350 And so it is all hinged on when we do this thing, we do it this way. 01:22:56.670 --> 01:23:00.910 And when we don't do it that way, right, that I mean it's it's so not been met. 01:23:00.990 --> 01:23:06.800 And because she doesn't have the uh the wealth of experiences to toggle the expectation 01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:08.960 of what happens when we leave the house and go to the store. 01:23:09.120 --> 01:23:09.280 Right. 01:23:09.920 --> 01:23:10.960 I mean that one we've done a lot. 01:23:11.040 --> 01:23:15.520 But like you can think of others where it's it's we've done it once or a few times and and 01:23:15.520 --> 01:23:19.680 really that's that expectation is set by that one thing and that's what they say is well, 01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:21.120 we didn't do it this way. 01:23:21.280 --> 01:23:22.480 We had to do it this way. 01:23:22.560 --> 01:23:27.130 And and you we might not have even realized as parents that that was part of what we did 01:23:27.130 --> 01:23:28.170 that time, right? 01:23:28.730 --> 01:23:33.210 But that really in their mind that they they hooked on to that as the thing that happens 01:23:33.210 --> 01:23:35.690 when we do this that they liked for some reason, right? 01:23:35.850 --> 01:23:37.610 Or at least they just expected it, right? 01:23:37.690 --> 01:23:42.330 They just expected it to be that way because because that's that's what they expected, and 01:23:42.330 --> 01:23:45.690 then this outcome we did didn't match that expectation, right? 01:23:45.770 --> 01:23:50.300 Um, and then yeah, Or the flip side when you do something that they find hilarious because 01:23:50.380 --> 01:23:54.060 and they they didn't know where that was gonna come from, and then they're just giddy with 01:23:54.060 --> 01:23:54.460 excitement. 01:23:54.540 --> 01:23:59.340 Um they're like, I didn't know the world had ice cream and it's incredible, you know, like 01:23:59.420 --> 01:24:01.100 it's just you know, yeah, exactly. 01:24:01.420 --> 01:24:03.900 Yeah, my daughter had the first bite of a cake pop yesterday. 01:24:04.540 --> 01:24:06.860 That was Gary Why. 01:24:07.100 --> 01:24:07.660 No, exactly. 01:24:07.740 --> 01:24:10.060 It's like I did not know the world included this. 01:24:10.220 --> 01:24:14.540 Um that also suggests that I mean, I don't know what the developmental research on 01:24:14.540 --> 01:24:15.900 disappointment is. 01:24:16.490 --> 01:24:18.010 And I should look into this. 01:24:18.090 --> 01:24:22.970 But it strikes me that like a very humane area of research, if there's not a lot, would be 01:24:22.970 --> 01:24:23.130 this. 01:24:23.290 --> 01:24:27.530 Because I mean, you know, if there are these humans that are constantly disappointed or 01:24:27.770 --> 01:24:31.690 possibly like have these expectations that are really volatile because they're so 01:24:31.690 --> 01:24:36.170 inexperienced and lack this common sense knowledge that we take for granted as adults, like 01:24:36.250 --> 01:24:37.530 I think that would be really important to know. 01:24:37.610 --> 01:24:41.130 It's also important for parents to understand, you know, just remember like they don't have 01:24:41.130 --> 01:24:42.650 the same expectations. 01:24:42.810 --> 01:24:48.160 So I'd imagine a lot of kids crying, that's the disappointment machine right there. 01:24:49.040 --> 01:24:52.880 Well, and it I mean at least I mean, at least the sort of parenting advice you see about 01:24:52.880 --> 01:24:53.600 routines. 01:24:54.160 --> 01:24:57.840 I mean, this this helps explain why that is so important to them. 01:24:58.080 --> 01:25:02.320 Because then it's it it matches their expectations of what's gonna happen once you've 01:25:02.320 --> 01:25:06.560 established routines, then they know this is this is and you'll have less of that 01:25:06.560 --> 01:25:11.150 volatility because you're not constantly doing things outside of a an expected pattern. 01:25:11.310 --> 01:25:11.630 Yeah. 01:25:11.870 --> 01:25:12.430 Um yeah. 01:25:12.990 --> 01:25:17.710 In your work on looking at these emotions, are there like any, because David talked a 01:25:17.710 --> 01:25:20.270 little bit about like status or people's mate value. 01:25:20.430 --> 01:25:24.830 Are there like individual differences in how people are prone to like being regretful or 01:25:24.830 --> 01:25:26.030 disappointed? 01:25:26.990 --> 01:25:29.870 I mean, so there's some that they've looked at. 01:25:29.950 --> 01:25:32.270 I the broader literature, I'm not sure. 01:25:32.460 --> 01:25:37.740 Um, at least within the the EP stuff on like casual sexual regret. 01:25:37.900 --> 01:25:41.740 Um, they've looked at different, you know, predictors, right? 01:25:41.900 --> 01:25:45.660 Um, so like, you know, like religiosity and things like that, where you know, they're more 01:25:45.660 --> 01:25:49.340 regretful of casual sex, and you can fit that into a framework of there's potentially more 01:25:49.340 --> 01:25:50.060 costs, right? 01:25:50.220 --> 01:25:51.900 Um, social costs there. 01:25:52.220 --> 01:25:54.700 Um, social sexual orientation, right? 01:25:54.860 --> 01:25:58.620 So if people are more inclined to casual sex, they regret casual sex less. 01:25:58.780 --> 01:25:59.970 That makes sense. 01:26:00.130 --> 01:26:02.610 Um, so there's there's some of those within that literature. 01:26:02.770 --> 01:26:06.130 I don't know the broader literature though, on the individual differences side of it. 01:26:06.210 --> 01:26:10.210 Um yeah, just anecdotally, it's like just anecdot now that we're talking about, I just 01:26:10.290 --> 01:26:13.730 there's people I know who are more regret prone than others. 01:26:13.810 --> 01:26:16.850 They'll make a decision and oh, it must have been it was a horrible decision. 01:26:16.930 --> 01:26:18.850 And some people just sort of like, whatever, you know. 01:26:19.010 --> 01:26:21.410 And it would be interesting to sort of unpack why that would be. 01:26:21.730 --> 01:26:21.890 Yeah. 01:26:21.970 --> 01:26:26.370 I mean, I had a in my all my notes in my thinking on this, I've got a prediction that is a 01:26:26.370 --> 01:26:31.560 little bit about um to the extent that if you're more intelligent or you could simulate 01:26:31.560 --> 01:26:33.400 more counterfactors, right? 01:26:33.880 --> 01:26:36.200 I would expect you to have more regret, right? 01:26:36.360 --> 01:26:42.200 If you're more imaginative or creative, I think I've written like that five different 01:26:42.200 --> 01:26:42.520 ways. 01:26:42.680 --> 01:26:46.920 Like because yeah, you could sit there and you could all day long think of all the 01:26:46.920 --> 01:26:50.830 different things you could have done versus somebody who can't do that as well, right? 01:26:50.990 --> 01:26:52.590 I think it should be less regretful, right? 01:26:52.670 --> 01:26:53.790 So I had that idea in there. 01:26:53.870 --> 01:26:55.230 I had a great idea. 01:26:55.310 --> 01:26:55.470 Yeah. 01:26:55.550 --> 01:27:00.030 The counterfactual thing uh is the miserable counterfactual thinker. 01:27:00.110 --> 01:27:02.110 Like I think we're all good counterfactual thinkers. 01:27:02.190 --> 01:27:04.830 That's what makes us good evolutionary psychologists. 01:27:04.910 --> 01:27:05.950 But yeah, no, for sure. 01:27:06.030 --> 01:27:06.270 Yeah. 01:27:06.590 --> 01:27:06.750 Yeah. 01:27:06.990 --> 01:27:09.390 Constantly imagining all the ways things could be better. 01:27:11.070 --> 01:27:12.270 That's the curse. 01:27:12.590 --> 01:27:18.180 Well, and you might get the a combination there of being that creative or imaginative or or 01:27:18.180 --> 01:27:18.900 whatever it is. 01:27:19.060 --> 01:27:23.300 But then also if you are less likely to seek, want to discuss that with others for some 01:27:23.300 --> 01:27:23.860 reason, right? 01:27:23.940 --> 01:27:27.940 If that's like an individual difference dimension, we're introverted about it, or you don't 01:27:28.420 --> 01:27:31.860 then it's just worse because you're just in your mind and you don't get the feedback from 01:27:31.860 --> 01:27:33.220 anybody saying, That's silly. 01:27:33.300 --> 01:27:35.220 That's that never would have happened. 01:27:35.380 --> 01:27:38.900 You know, that counterfactual you've suggested is just really improbable. 01:27:39.220 --> 01:27:40.180 Don't worry about that. 01:27:40.340 --> 01:27:40.660 Right. 01:27:41.810 --> 01:27:43.250 Kept it all in there, right? 01:27:43.330 --> 01:27:46.210 Then it's just you in your mind forever. 01:27:46.690 --> 01:27:46.930 Right. 01:27:47.730 --> 01:27:50.530 It could go, it could go the other way, though, because you could be using your 01:27:50.530 --> 01:27:54.050 counterfactual reasoning to simulate how worse things could have been. 01:27:54.130 --> 01:27:58.290 And maybe you're you're imagining all the worst case scenarios in all the ways that the 01:27:58.610 --> 01:28:01.730 world could be more dangerous and awful than than you thought. 01:28:01.890 --> 01:28:05.490 And so in some cases, maybe uh it would lead to the opposite. 01:28:05.650 --> 01:28:10.440 You know, you're happy with your decision because you're you're not uh you know running you 01:28:10.440 --> 01:28:13.960 know from the monster in terror you're you know all all the horrible things that could have 01:28:13.960 --> 01:28:15.800 happened didn't so you're you're happier. 01:28:15.960 --> 01:28:19.320 Um so that would probably be a a moderating variable as well. 01:28:19.480 --> 01:28:22.520 Like what kinds of counterfactual scenarios are you likely to entertain? 01:28:22.680 --> 01:28:26.680 If you're constantly imagining happy counterfactual scenarios, that could paradoxically 01:28:26.680 --> 01:28:27.480 make you feel worse. 01:28:27.640 --> 01:28:31.640 And if you're, you know, imagining the worst case scenarios that could paradoxically make 01:28:31.640 --> 01:28:32.440 you feel better. 01:28:33.000 --> 01:28:33.880 Yeah that's a good thing. 01:28:33.960 --> 01:28:34.520 Yeah sorry go ahead. 01:28:34.760 --> 01:28:40.610 Oh no I was gonna say the you know, when I've thought about that regret dimension, um most 01:28:40.610 --> 01:28:44.530 of the literature on it is just regret to like no regret, like you don't experience, but it 01:28:44.530 --> 01:28:48.930 seems like relief if there's a if there's a dimension like the disappointment election, 01:28:49.090 --> 01:28:49.250 right? 01:28:49.330 --> 01:28:50.770 It's like yeah, regret to relief. 01:28:50.850 --> 01:28:55.250 And if you're doing that imagining of like, yeah, man, if I had done that, yeah, I'd done 01:28:55.250 --> 01:28:56.770 the other thing, that would have been terrible. 01:28:56.930 --> 01:29:01.010 That it's it's relief might be the other anchor on that dimension. 01:29:01.300 --> 01:29:01.540 Yeah. 01:29:01.860 --> 01:29:05.620 It's also I there was a study done where I think it was like British subways. 01:29:05.780 --> 01:29:10.820 I don't like, don't quote me on the specifics, but they removed the advertisements from the 01:29:10.820 --> 01:29:11.540 subway. 01:29:12.100 --> 01:29:17.380 And uh it was a it was a very subtle manipulation, but they actually like found that 01:29:17.380 --> 01:29:21.780 people's well being slightly ticked up from removing the advertisements. 01:29:21.860 --> 01:29:26.100 Because I mean like one of the one of the like the tropes of advertising is it's creating 01:29:26.090 --> 01:29:29.690 unmet wants, you know, like that's kind of the job of advertising, right? 01:29:29.770 --> 01:29:34.090 Is to sort of make you feel like a discrepancy between your current state and the desired 01:29:34.090 --> 01:29:34.330 state. 01:29:34.490 --> 01:29:36.330 That's what motivates you to do something. 01:29:36.570 --> 01:29:42.410 Um, and this comes back to this like relationship propaganda, then, where I 01:29:42.410 --> 01:29:47.690 wonder at this point of if you're positively always evaluating something, it's gonna make 01:29:47.690 --> 01:29:49.610 you feel worse about your own situation. 01:29:49.770 --> 01:29:53.280 If you're but if you're comparing counterfactuals that are worse than yours, then you're 01:29:53.280 --> 01:29:54.000 going to feel better. 01:29:54.160 --> 01:29:58.720 So this actually suggests that if people are constantly consuming sort of like worse 01:29:58.720 --> 01:30:02.080 relationship material, they're going to feel better about their relationship. 01:30:02.160 --> 01:30:05.840 But if they're consuming more positive, they're going to feel worse about it too. 01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:06.640 Yeah. 01:30:07.440 --> 01:30:09.520 That yeah, that prediction totally makes sense. 01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:09.840 Yeah. 01:30:10.000 --> 01:30:15.270 Um, and I will say, as as in in my one source that uh 01:30:15.910 --> 01:30:19.590 people I think in my research world all the time they're like, go look at like one of the 01:30:19.590 --> 01:30:23.110 relationship subreddits and just see what people are saying about this, right? 01:30:23.670 --> 01:30:28.150 Those are great sources for like situations where you're like, Man, I'm my situation's 01:30:28.150 --> 01:30:28.950 fantastic. 01:30:29.990 --> 01:30:31.350 We read about this. 01:30:32.550 --> 01:30:33.990 It's it's really, yeah. 01:30:34.320 --> 01:30:38.480 It'd be a great couples therapy strategy, just like go on our relationships. 01:30:38.800 --> 01:30:39.040 Yeah. 01:30:39.360 --> 01:30:40.720 Read the horror stories. 01:30:42.080 --> 01:30:43.600 Stop arguing about the dishwasher. 01:30:43.680 --> 01:30:44.400 Just read this. 01:30:44.640 --> 01:30:44.960 Yeah. 01:30:45.760 --> 01:30:45.920 Yeah. 01:30:46.080 --> 01:30:50.560 It's like the um what it is like you feel people feel happier when they volunteer and work 01:30:50.560 --> 01:30:52.400 with like people who are worse off than them. 01:30:52.560 --> 01:30:56.160 It's like they should just do couples therapy where they just do the therapy for couples 01:30:56.160 --> 01:30:57.360 who are worse off than them. 01:30:57.680 --> 01:30:58.000 Wow. 01:30:58.150 --> 01:30:59.510 We're gonna pair you with this cover. 01:30:59.910 --> 01:31:00.470 Exactly. 01:31:00.710 --> 01:31:04.150 Although it only works half for half of the people because the other well, it depends. 01:31:04.230 --> 01:31:04.870 Yeah, I don't know. 01:31:04.950 --> 01:31:05.510 Yeah. 01:31:07.590 --> 01:31:07.830 Yeah. 01:31:07.990 --> 01:31:12.150 The poor the poor couple that you use as the as the comparison. 01:31:12.710 --> 01:31:14.150 This is where we just get actors in. 01:31:14.390 --> 01:31:14.630 Right. 01:31:14.710 --> 01:31:14.950 Exactly. 01:31:15.590 --> 01:31:17.110 They're confederates, they're whatever. 01:31:17.190 --> 01:31:17.270 Right. 01:31:20.470 --> 01:31:24.950 Well, actually, I wonder some of reality TV, like you know, might be this too, right? 01:31:25.030 --> 01:31:26.470 It's just consuming. 01:31:26.740 --> 01:31:32.500 obviously there's lots of there's lots of sort of um psychological sugar quote unquote 01:31:32.580 --> 01:31:38.420 in like in in that in in um uh reality tv but i wonder if like seeing worse 01:31:38.420 --> 01:31:44.340 relationships also just sort of is like oh okay that drama i can turn it off and 01:31:44.340 --> 01:31:48.500 i don't have that drama yeah it's interesting the drawing to it right because you know you 01:31:48.500 --> 01:31:53.250 look in the the popular cultural representations of things, there's the world of romance 01:31:53.250 --> 01:31:58.930 novels and um Hallmark movies, and you know, all those things that are the very 01:31:58.930 --> 01:32:01.170 positive side of it that people seem to be drawn to. 01:32:01.250 --> 01:32:05.570 But then exactly what you're saying: the you know, there's the reality TV version of the 01:32:05.650 --> 01:32:10.610 where it is, there's that drama and the dysfunction, and people are equally or more, I'm 01:32:10.610 --> 01:32:11.250 not sure, right? 01:32:11.410 --> 01:32:12.370 Drawn to watching that. 01:32:12.530 --> 01:32:15.220 Both seem to attract right the attention. 01:32:15.300 --> 01:32:19.140 Um, I don't know if one more than the other, but they both of them are represented, I 01:32:19.140 --> 01:32:19.300 think. 01:32:19.540 --> 01:32:19.780 Yeah. 01:32:19.860 --> 01:32:24.100 And if you look like even classic literature, I mean a lot of it has the negative too, you 01:32:24.100 --> 01:32:24.260 know. 01:32:24.340 --> 01:32:28.820 Like, I mean, nowadays it's sort of like it's seen as lowbrow to have the sort of really uh 01:32:28.900 --> 01:32:31.460 negative part, but I think like it's always sort of in there. 01:32:31.700 --> 01:32:32.100 Mm-hmm. 01:32:32.420 --> 01:32:33.700 All of Jane Austen. 01:32:34.180 --> 01:32:34.500 Yeah. 01:32:35.140 --> 01:32:37.300 It's a it's a journey to get to the end there. 01:32:37.540 --> 01:32:37.860 Yes. 01:32:38.020 --> 01:32:38.660 Yeah. 01:32:39.250 --> 01:32:45.250 Um this uh the this intersection of mating and emotions, um, is 01:32:45.250 --> 01:32:48.370 there, you know, is this a relatively new thing? 01:32:48.530 --> 01:32:51.490 I mean, it seems so obvious, but is this sort of new? 01:32:51.810 --> 01:32:53.650 It is, I think it is sort of new. 01:32:53.810 --> 01:32:59.650 I think I think in when thinking about emotions in the mating world before, people 01:32:59.650 --> 01:33:00.610 talked about love. 01:33:01.040 --> 01:33:01.360 right? 01:33:01.680 --> 01:33:04.400 And attraction arousal, right? 01:33:04.560 --> 01:33:06.320 That those ideas came up. 01:33:06.480 --> 01:33:07.680 Jealousy, certainly. 01:33:07.840 --> 01:33:13.760 But jealousy was probably the only one that I think was sort of well worked 01:33:14.080 --> 01:33:18.560 from that adaptive problem perspective, really thinking about the design and design 01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:22.000 features and and and coming coming from that. 01:33:22.240 --> 01:33:27.730 But it it it is not something that there had been a ton of. 01:33:28.050 --> 01:33:33.650 And for what is there, I think it um uh it's not quite 01:33:33.650 --> 01:33:34.610 nuanced yet, right? 01:33:34.770 --> 01:33:38.530 It isn't sort of really, I think there's been a lot of fantastic work on emotions that has 01:33:38.530 --> 01:33:43.810 happened in the last you know 15 or so years from you know an EP perspective about really 01:33:44.050 --> 01:33:48.980 how to do really good research, um, thinking about what emotions are, right? 01:33:49.220 --> 01:33:53.860 And you know, what the adaptive problem is and and what the design, you know, of that 01:33:53.860 --> 01:33:58.740 emotion uh would look like if it did evolve to solve that adaptive problem, right? 01:33:58.820 --> 01:34:00.420 And then how do you study that, right? 01:34:00.580 --> 01:34:06.020 How do you design studies to really demonstrate evidence for those 01:34:06.020 --> 01:34:07.860 hypothesized design features? 01:34:08.100 --> 01:34:12.590 I think in you know, some of these emotions we've talked about, and you know, anger and 01:34:12.590 --> 01:34:16.910 shame and these ones where where people have really developed these beautiful research 01:34:16.910 --> 01:34:17.550 programs. 01:34:17.950 --> 01:34:22.350 And I think uh that's one thing I I'm really interested in for the sort of the future of 01:34:22.350 --> 01:34:28.110 mating research is is taking some of that um either for those emotions or these other 01:34:28.110 --> 01:34:33.710 emotions that really are relevant in a mating context and building out um research programs 01:34:33.710 --> 01:34:35.870 in the same way with those same principles. 01:34:36.030 --> 01:34:41.360 I think is absolutely a cool next step for good stuff um and some 01:34:41.360 --> 01:34:46.240 low-hanging fruit for graduate students or people thinking about developing theses and 01:34:46.240 --> 01:34:46.400 right. 01:34:46.640 --> 01:34:49.040 I mean I think there's there's good stuff to be done there. 01:34:49.360 --> 01:34:50.480 Yeah, I I love that. 01:34:50.560 --> 01:34:56.480 And that's it's also um, you know, there's a lot of these emotions are very um 01:34:56.960 --> 01:34:58.000 positive and negative. 01:34:58.080 --> 01:35:02.800 I mean it seems sort of trite to say, but like a lot of human experience is is brought up 01:35:02.800 --> 01:35:03.360 in these emotions. 01:35:03.440 --> 01:35:08.710 And it's a very humane thing to sort of respect understanding them. 01:35:08.790 --> 01:35:13.190 And it's sort of weird how much, and I think for the strategic reasons we've avoided them, 01:35:13.350 --> 01:35:18.950 but it's very inhumane in the same way it was sort of inhumane to worry about, you know, 01:35:19.030 --> 01:35:20.950 like you know, they didn't what? 01:35:21.030 --> 01:35:26.950 They didn't give kids um uh anti what is it called I can't think of any 01:35:26.950 --> 01:35:27.430 words today. 01:35:27.510 --> 01:35:31.350 What is it called when you like um uh give people like they can't feel pain? 01:35:31.430 --> 01:35:33.400 Um anesthetic, Yes. 01:35:33.560 --> 01:35:37.880 Like they didn't give give like babies anesthetic for for just be you know, because like 01:35:37.960 --> 01:35:40.920 the doctors weren't even like thinking about kids like, oh whatever kids don't feel things. 01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:46.760 And so you know it's very inhumane to not think about the evolved design of all of 01:35:46.760 --> 01:35:47.240 life. 01:35:47.480 --> 01:35:52.840 And I think like to the extent that psychology has been sort of high and mighty about 01:35:53.630 --> 01:35:55.390 biological things like mating. 01:35:55.550 --> 01:36:00.430 It's also missed out on like addressing what is a fairly if we don't have a science of it, 01:36:00.510 --> 01:36:05.390 we can be pretty inhumane about like people's needs and their feelings about like, you 01:36:05.390 --> 01:36:07.150 know, am I attached to somebody? 01:36:07.310 --> 01:36:08.270 Do I feel secure? 01:36:08.430 --> 01:36:09.550 Do I feel loved? 01:36:09.790 --> 01:36:12.830 Um, it's weird that we don't have a better science of that. 01:36:12.910 --> 01:36:18.060 And I think it's a real um problem to sort of be ignoring it um 01:36:18.300 --> 01:36:22.860 scientifically um and it's it's really sad in a way um 01:36:24.940 --> 01:36:30.700 yeah i mean it it's it's hard to imagine any emotion that is not relevant to mating 01:36:30.780 --> 01:36:36.540 it's sort of the the domain where all of our emotions apply you know you yeah like I I 01:36:36.540 --> 01:36:40.380 can't really think of an ex I mean maybe I don't know even hunger like you know you eat 01:36:40.380 --> 01:36:44.460 with your your mate and you prepare food with your mate and you know there could you can be 01:36:44.460 --> 01:36:47.950 hangry if if they're the dinner's not ready or or or whatever. 01:36:48.270 --> 01:36:50.990 Eventual discussion of where are we gonna have dinner tonight and Yeah, exactly. 01:36:51.230 --> 01:36:53.390 Like that's a huge huge th huge part of relationships. 01:36:53.470 --> 01:36:57.070 If you don't like the other person's cooking or or they're they're cooking more than you or 01:36:57.070 --> 01:36:57.550 vice versa. 01:36:57.630 --> 01:37:01.870 You know, like lots of stuff like I I can't think of any emotion that that isn't relevant. 01:37:02.030 --> 01:37:05.870 I mean it's it's if you think about it it's it's the central adaptive challenge of of being 01:37:05.870 --> 01:37:10.990 an organism is to reproduce and a mating a mateship is the context where that happens. 01:37:11.150 --> 01:37:14.820 It seems like all of our emotions should be relevant to that thing. 01:37:15.140 --> 01:37:20.100 Um and so I I think it's a really interesting and and and useful direction to take it where 01:37:20.180 --> 01:37:21.300 you know what are all these other emotions? 01:37:21.460 --> 01:37:25.220 What are the what are ways in which we we're we're afraid or guilty or or ashamed or or 01:37:25.220 --> 01:37:29.460 proud um or embarrassed or whatever in the context of a relationship. 01:37:29.540 --> 01:37:35.540 Um and it seems like all of those things, you know, happen uh to varying degrees um in 01:37:35.540 --> 01:37:37.220 a in a romantic relationship. 01:37:37.460 --> 01:37:38.740 So yeah, absolutely. 01:37:38.820 --> 01:37:43.010 And and also there's the ones that are going to be unique to that, right? 01:37:43.250 --> 01:37:46.610 So, you know, people talk about sexual arousal, that kind of thing, but also, you know, 01:37:46.690 --> 01:37:47.730 parental love, right? 01:37:47.970 --> 01:37:52.450 So if if and that sort of family unit being created, right? 01:37:52.690 --> 01:37:56.690 Uh, and the psychology regulating that and those feelings towards that little little 01:37:57.490 --> 01:37:59.410 genetic vehicle that's terrorizing you. 01:37:59.570 --> 01:38:01.330 But you also love so much, right? 01:38:01.490 --> 01:38:07.460 That um all of that that only right uh comes online or or or happens, 01:38:07.620 --> 01:38:07.940 right? 01:38:08.020 --> 01:38:10.420 Um, in in those inmateships, right? 01:38:10.580 --> 01:38:13.460 So um I think it's it's you're absolutely right. 01:38:13.540 --> 01:38:15.380 It's all of the things plus, right? 01:38:15.540 --> 01:38:19.140 Ones that you couldn't study in another con, you know, another type of relationship, but 01:38:19.220 --> 01:38:21.140 but really matter for that type of relationship. 01:38:21.460 --> 01:38:25.140 This is really interesting because we started this conversation saying there's too much 01:38:25.140 --> 01:38:28.260 mating work, but we're actually arriving at there's not enough. 01:38:28.420 --> 01:38:32.820 And or precisely what it is is that the way we've compartmentalized mating and the approach 01:38:32.820 --> 01:38:36.250 we've taken to it has been it's really its own little thing. 01:38:36.490 --> 01:38:36.730 Yeah. 01:38:36.810 --> 01:38:42.090 And what we're landing on is that actually it should be everywhere and diffused throughout. 01:38:42.170 --> 01:38:44.970 So it's really just that there should be more but different, right? 01:38:45.050 --> 01:38:46.890 And just sort of integrated with everything. 01:38:46.970 --> 01:38:47.130 Yeah. 01:38:47.370 --> 01:38:47.770 I like that. 01:38:47.930 --> 01:38:50.090 More but different but integrated with everything. 01:38:50.490 --> 01:38:52.730 But it's it's it's you're absolutely right. 01:38:52.810 --> 01:38:55.370 It's it's what it's what brings me back to still, right? 01:38:55.450 --> 01:38:56.570 I mean, I'm tenured. 01:38:56.730 --> 01:38:59.920 I, you know, I'm I'm I've got my job. 01:39:00.080 --> 01:39:01.120 I could switch, right? 01:39:01.200 --> 01:39:03.600 I could say I'm not doing any more meaning research. 01:39:03.680 --> 01:39:08.160 I'm gonna deep dive in something else in EP and I'm gonna make that my thing instead, 01:39:08.240 --> 01:39:08.480 right? 01:39:08.560 --> 01:39:11.040 Like I I do, I'm I'm very, very fortunate. 01:39:11.120 --> 01:39:13.920 I have the freedom I could choose to do that if I wanted to. 01:39:14.160 --> 01:39:17.280 But somehow it it just I just keep coming back to it, right? 01:39:17.360 --> 01:39:21.760 I just the questions that I come up with and building on what I've already done or thinking 01:39:21.760 --> 01:39:23.930 through end up and it's for this reason, right? 01:39:24.010 --> 01:39:28.170 I I think about what can we be doing better and what is what are the next things we should 01:39:28.170 --> 01:39:32.170 be learning and how should we be advancing our our science in this world. 01:39:32.330 --> 01:39:37.690 Um uh but but yeah for all for all the the the ways in which it's dominated the 01:39:37.690 --> 01:39:40.170 conversation about EP in some spaces, right? 01:39:40.250 --> 01:39:41.930 It's it's it's for good reason. 01:39:42.010 --> 01:39:47.520 Um it's interesting because it is sort of yeah it's it's I I'm not a mating person, but I 01:39:47.520 --> 01:39:49.040 also, I mean, I'm colleagues with Dan. 01:39:49.120 --> 01:39:50.160 I see him all the time. 01:39:50.320 --> 01:39:55.440 And I feel like the the thing of sort of like apologetically, I'm a mating researcher, 01:39:55.600 --> 01:39:55.920 right? 01:39:56.000 --> 01:39:59.760 It like kind of comes up a little bit, but it sounds like again, we're coming kind of for a 01:39:59.840 --> 01:40:03.840 circle where it's sort of like to not only not be apologetic about it, but to sort of say, 01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:07.840 Yeah, I'm a mating researcher and this is why it's awesome and important, and here's the 01:40:07.840 --> 01:40:08.880 way to do it. 01:40:10.080 --> 01:40:10.720 Yes. 01:40:10.950 --> 01:40:12.230 I like that. 01:40:14.390 --> 01:40:17.750 Uh Carrie, is there anything that we should have asked you? 01:40:18.950 --> 01:40:20.150 I don't think so. 01:40:20.310 --> 01:40:22.790 Uh that was that was good conversation. 01:40:22.950 --> 01:40:23.590 I enjoyed that. 01:40:23.750 --> 01:40:25.110 We hit on lots of good topics. 01:40:25.190 --> 01:40:25.510 So yeah. 01:40:25.830 --> 01:40:27.830 Did you want to talk any more about cooperation? 01:40:27.910 --> 01:40:30.710 Because you said you've been thinking a lot about like cooperation in the in that 01:40:30.710 --> 01:40:31.190 relationship. 01:40:31.270 --> 01:40:35.830 Is there anything about that that you we we hadn't hit on that you've been thinking about? 01:40:36.150 --> 01:40:37.430 We we mostly hit on it. 01:40:37.590 --> 01:40:43.320 I think um the the only other piece oh I I recently reread the Bankers 01:40:43.480 --> 01:40:49.160 Paradox paper um about irreplaceability right um and that and so it was just 01:40:49.160 --> 01:40:54.680 another another piece in that puzzle of when we're thinking about these mating 01:40:54.680 --> 01:40:59.960 relationships right like a bunch of this logic applies right from other cooperative 01:40:59.960 --> 01:41:04.710 relationships and so that was that was a piece there from that literature on friendships, 01:41:04.870 --> 01:41:05.030 right? 01:41:05.190 --> 01:41:08.710 Um, that oh, and but in best friends and close friends and tight, it's that 01:41:08.710 --> 01:41:14.630 irreplaceability that um and being irreplaceable and and a lot of that logic, uh 01:41:14.790 --> 01:41:19.670 the same predictions, right, apply and like how to, you know, attract a good partner, 01:41:19.750 --> 01:41:19.910 right? 01:41:19.990 --> 01:41:21.350 A romantic partner, right? 01:41:21.510 --> 01:41:27.110 Um and so I think some of it is in thinking in a nuanced way about mating as its own thing 01:41:27.190 --> 01:41:32.540 is is some of that defining like, well, you know, how is it, you know, it is the extreme 01:41:32.540 --> 01:41:36.060 cooperative relationship, but then what are the features that make it extreme or unique or 01:41:36.060 --> 01:41:36.620 different, right? 01:41:36.780 --> 01:41:40.700 And then how does that change your predictions from what you would predict from different 01:41:40.700 --> 01:41:41.820 cooperative relationships? 01:41:41.980 --> 01:41:44.220 Or are you just going to predict the same thing, right? 01:41:44.300 --> 01:41:48.060 That it's, but it's just the same thing with even higher consequences, right? 01:41:48.460 --> 01:41:53.420 And I think some of that thinking, I think, really helps explain what goes on in mateships 01:41:53.740 --> 01:41:58.310 more as like fitting on that cooperative relationships continuum necessarily than like its 01:41:58.310 --> 01:42:00.150 own domain, its own separate thing. 01:42:00.790 --> 01:42:03.510 So like just to just to make it concrete to see if I'm understanding. 01:42:03.590 --> 01:42:07.830 So like an example might be like one thing that's unique about mating, unlike another 01:42:07.830 --> 01:42:11.030 cooperative relationship, is it can create children, right? 01:42:11.270 --> 01:42:17.110 Uh and so like so one idea would be that sort of one of the Q structures of a relationship 01:42:17.110 --> 01:42:19.830 would just be like, do we have children together or not? 01:42:19.990 --> 01:42:23.830 And that would just have consequences on sort of settings. 01:42:24.000 --> 01:42:26.960 Uh is that the kind of Yes, that kind of thing. 01:42:27.040 --> 01:42:30.640 And then once you have children, right, the consequences that, you know, the well-being of 01:42:30.640 --> 01:42:34.560 those children and all those things have, I mean, that's an additional that might sort of 01:42:34.560 --> 01:42:39.120 trump some of these other considerations that in a cooperative relationship where that's 01:42:39.120 --> 01:42:41.200 not part of your shared investments, right? 01:42:41.360 --> 01:42:46.320 That that it, you know, these other things can matter more or matter in different ways that 01:42:46.390 --> 01:42:47.910 once there are those kids there, right? 01:42:47.990 --> 01:42:51.270 I mean, that's that that swamps could swamp a lot, right? 01:42:51.430 --> 01:42:57.030 Um, and so that um so it's the even before, but then you know, once they're there, um that 01:42:57.190 --> 01:42:59.350 that might really uh influence things. 01:42:59.670 --> 01:43:00.070 Yeah. 01:43:00.390 --> 01:43:00.630 Yeah. 01:43:00.790 --> 01:43:02.390 Research is me search, but I agree. 01:43:02.550 --> 01:43:06.230 One of the themes of this podcast is there's not enough work on parenting psychology. 01:43:06.520 --> 01:43:06.920 Totally. 01:43:07.000 --> 01:43:07.160 Yeah. 01:43:07.320 --> 01:43:11.160 And of course it's, you know, it's something that like I think I acknowledged before I had 01:43:11.160 --> 01:43:14.360 a kid, but then like once I had a kid, I was like, oh yeah, no, there's not enough. 01:43:14.520 --> 01:43:14.600 Yeah. 01:43:15.880 --> 01:43:20.680 It just really and and I think sometimes people ask, especially they ask meeting 01:43:20.680 --> 01:43:25.400 researchers this all the time, um, about like, oh, since you knew all this, like, aren't 01:43:25.400 --> 01:43:26.600 you a really great mater? 01:43:26.680 --> 01:43:28.360 You know, like don't you apply it, right? 01:43:28.520 --> 01:43:33.730 So you can find a really great mates or you can whatever, like you know, the amount we have 01:43:33.730 --> 01:43:37.330 conscious access to it, the amount you in a moment can do any of that, right? 01:43:37.410 --> 01:43:38.450 I don't, I don't really think so. 01:43:38.530 --> 01:43:44.530 But I have found much more with parenting in those moments of like thinking exactly 01:43:44.530 --> 01:43:44.850 like this. 01:43:45.010 --> 01:43:47.650 Like, you are losing your shit right now, little kid. 01:43:47.810 --> 01:43:50.290 Oh, like this is how disappointment works in you. 01:43:51.090 --> 01:43:51.330 Right. 01:43:51.650 --> 01:43:57.330 Like in it in it in it feeling, I think, uh, I think a lot of the parenting 01:43:57.330 --> 01:44:02.800 angst people feel about, oh, my child is, you know, oh, I've made them sad, or oh, and I'm 01:44:02.800 --> 01:44:03.920 not feeling guilty about it. 01:44:04.000 --> 01:44:04.240 Right. 01:44:04.320 --> 01:44:08.480 I I a little bit don't, I mean, maybe this is me being a bad parent, but I more am like, 01:44:08.720 --> 01:44:14.000 no, like you're this little being in your evolved psychology is calibrating and it's doing 01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:15.280 this, and that's good. 01:44:15.520 --> 01:44:21.120 And of course, I'm making sure you're safe and you're fed and you, you know, we're strongly 01:44:21.120 --> 01:44:25.840 attached and all that, but like I, you know, I just want your little evolved psychology to 01:44:25.840 --> 01:44:28.960 like figure these things out and calibrate the world in this way, right? 01:44:29.120 --> 01:44:33.930 Um, and I think that has had, I think I've been more conscious of that like in the 01:44:33.930 --> 01:44:38.890 parenting realm than I ever was in like or am in like the the mating realm. 01:44:38.970 --> 01:44:39.290 I don't know. 01:44:39.450 --> 01:44:42.570 Yeah yeah David I don't know how you feel about that but I feel the same way too of sort of 01:44:42.650 --> 01:44:46.330 maybe it's also knowing the cross-cultural literature where I sort of much more emphasis on 01:44:46.330 --> 01:44:51.290 autonomy than sort of like the ambient norms here at least of sort of like you know the 01:44:51.290 --> 01:44:53.370 really helicopter like I have to move their limbs for them. 01:44:53.450 --> 01:44:57.780 It's like no no no in in like a hunter gatherer or hunter fortier, you know, like for 01:44:57.940 --> 01:45:01.620 evolved history, kids were basically I mean not on their own, but you know, you get much 01:45:01.620 --> 01:45:02.420 more so, right? 01:45:02.580 --> 01:45:07.140 And so that that sense of like you respect that they're an evolved creature, like you said, 01:45:07.220 --> 01:45:10.100 Carrie, and they can they're they're they got they're doing their own thing. 01:45:10.500 --> 01:45:10.900 They are. 01:45:11.060 --> 01:45:11.300 Yeah. 01:45:11.460 --> 01:45:15.140 I think every time I talk to anthropologists about which is one of my favorite things to 01:45:15.140 --> 01:45:15.620 talk to them. 01:45:15.700 --> 01:45:17.220 I don't they can just tell me about it. 01:45:17.940 --> 01:45:18.180 Exactly. 01:45:18.260 --> 01:45:19.220 It's the win-win. 01:45:19.380 --> 01:45:25.070 It's the they do the they do the dangerous, sweaty, um oh my god, 01:45:25.230 --> 01:45:27.470 the the the yeah, the you know the stories. 01:45:27.630 --> 01:45:31.790 I don't know, the things, but but the you know, so many of them I've heard them refer to 01:45:31.870 --> 01:45:33.870 like the bands of roving children, right? 01:45:34.030 --> 01:45:36.430 Like the kids just roam in the packs, right? 01:45:36.510 --> 01:45:41.230 And it'll be from the time they can they can keep up with the pack, they're with the pack 01:45:41.310 --> 01:45:42.510 and then they're right. 01:45:42.590 --> 01:45:45.870 And it's and they they are just autonomously doing these things. 01:45:45.950 --> 01:45:49.150 There's eyes on the little ones to, you know, hopefully make sure they don't fall off the 01:45:49.150 --> 01:45:50.030 cliff or whatever, right? 01:45:50.190 --> 01:45:55.960 But and that I agree that in thinking about that version of childhood versus 01:45:56.120 --> 01:46:00.040 uh, you know, uh for reasons our child, you know, the the version of childhood for our 01:46:00.040 --> 01:46:02.920 children is different and and there's lots of great things about that. 01:46:03.000 --> 01:46:08.600 Um, but I it really influences, I think, also some of my concerns that I don't have, 01:46:08.760 --> 01:46:09.080 right? 01:46:09.400 --> 01:46:14.120 About uh what I need to be doing as a parent that I think um I wouldn't have if I I I 01:46:14.120 --> 01:46:17.240 wouldn't be able to think of it that way if I weren't an evolutionary psychologist. 01:46:19.470 --> 01:46:20.110 Yeah. 01:46:20.430 --> 01:46:21.710 Totally agree. 01:46:22.190 --> 01:46:27.630 Well, we did not, I I am not at all uh regretting or disappointed by this 01:46:27.630 --> 01:46:28.350 conversation. 01:46:28.670 --> 01:46:28.990 No. 01:46:29.230 --> 01:46:30.670 Yeah, I feel the opposite. 01:46:30.830 --> 01:46:32.030 What is the opposite of regret? 01:46:32.110 --> 01:46:32.750 Is there? 01:46:33.230 --> 01:46:35.470 I think relief is what I would put on the other end. 01:46:35.630 --> 01:46:36.750 I don't know what I'm relieved. 01:46:37.070 --> 01:46:37.710 You said elation. 01:46:37.870 --> 01:46:39.150 It was you said elation too. 01:46:39.390 --> 01:46:43.620 So yeah, disappointment elation is sort of in the literature on like the other end. 01:46:43.700 --> 01:46:46.820 If when you see people talk about something on the other end, it's like disappointment 01:46:46.820 --> 01:46:47.860 versus elation. 01:46:48.260 --> 01:46:50.260 Regret, they just talk about like regret or no regret. 01:46:50.340 --> 01:46:52.500 But I sort of think relief might be the other side of it. 01:46:52.660 --> 01:46:54.340 Like if you realize being glad. 01:46:54.500 --> 01:46:57.780 Oh, sorry, didn't it be like the opposite, like if you had done the other thing, it would 01:46:57.780 --> 01:46:58.260 have been much worse. 01:46:58.340 --> 01:47:00.020 Oh, I'm really Oh, I see. 01:47:00.180 --> 01:47:00.660 Oh, I see. 01:47:00.740 --> 01:47:02.500 See, oh I see, see, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:47:02.820 --> 01:47:03.220 Yeah, yeah. 01:47:03.700 --> 01:47:07.380 Or even just like it wouldn't have been like a catastrophe if I did the other thing, but 01:47:07.380 --> 01:47:09.630 the thing I did was like is really good. 01:47:09.710 --> 01:47:11.390 And I'm I really made the right choice. 01:47:11.470 --> 01:47:12.990 And I'm really glad I made that choice. 01:47:13.150 --> 01:47:14.910 I don't know if we even have a word for that. 01:47:15.230 --> 01:47:16.670 It's like satisfaction. 01:47:17.070 --> 01:47:18.750 Satisfaction, maybe? 01:47:18.990 --> 01:47:19.630 I don't know. 01:47:19.790 --> 01:47:21.870 Well, whatever that word is, I'm feeling it. 01:47:22.030 --> 01:47:23.310 This was a very fun conversation. 01:47:23.790 --> 01:47:24.750 This is a great conversation. 01:47:24.910 --> 01:47:25.150 Thank you. 01:47:25.390 --> 01:47:26.990 Thank you, Carrie, for being with us. 01:47:27.150 --> 01:47:31.470 We have to get uh we have to get some, maybe we should get a like a have a Valentine's Day 01:47:31.470 --> 01:47:32.830 special about love or something. 01:47:32.990 --> 01:47:34.110 We can unpack love more. 01:47:34.400 --> 01:47:34.640 Oh yeah. 01:47:34.800 --> 01:47:36.080 Get a panel of us, right? 01:47:36.320 --> 01:47:36.640 Exactly. 01:47:36.720 --> 01:47:37.440 No, this is the thing. 01:47:37.520 --> 01:47:38.000 Yeah, yeah. 01:47:38.080 --> 01:47:38.320 Yeah. 01:47:38.800 --> 01:47:39.360 That'd be fun. 01:47:39.600 --> 01:47:40.080 Fantastic. 01:47:40.240 --> 01:47:42.000 Well, thank you so much for coming on. 01:47:42.080 --> 01:47:46.960 And uh um I hope everybody has a uh a non-disappointing week. 01:47:47.280 --> 01:47:47.680 Mm-hmm. 01:47:47.760 --> 01:47:50.480 With no regrets and uh lots of love. 01:47:55.920 --> 01:47:59.920 Uh David, I have no regrets uh about this episode. 01:48:00.270 --> 01:48:00.830 Me neither. 01:48:00.910 --> 01:48:02.670 In fact, I was the opposite of disappointed. 01:48:02.750 --> 01:48:04.910 I was elated by this fun conversation. 01:48:04.990 --> 01:48:09.470 And if you're feeling elated by what you've just heard, uh, what can you do, Dave? 01:48:09.870 --> 01:48:12.910 Uh you can check out Carrie Getz's work. 01:48:13.070 --> 01:48:15.150 You can leave us a kind review. 01:48:15.390 --> 01:48:21.150 You can uh pay us a visit on Patreon and um you know leave a 01:48:21.150 --> 01:48:22.910 few coins here or there. 01:48:23.150 --> 01:48:28.510 Um and uh yeah you can just generally support the podcast and um 01:48:29.500 --> 01:48:31.340 uh I don't know what anything else? 01:48:31.420 --> 01:48:32.620 Did I did I leave anything else? 01:48:33.500 --> 01:48:35.340 You know, talk about us on social media. 01:48:35.420 --> 01:48:35.820 Recommend us. 01:48:36.220 --> 01:48:36.460 That's right. 01:48:36.620 --> 01:48:37.180 Social media. 01:48:37.340 --> 01:48:37.660 Yeah. 01:48:38.060 --> 01:48:38.300 Yeah. 01:48:38.460 --> 01:48:42.940 You know, uh your enthusiasm and support is the fuel that keeps us going. 01:48:43.100 --> 01:48:47.020 So if you if you if you like what you're hearing and you want this to keep going, please uh 01:48:47.020 --> 01:48:48.620 give us the support we need. 01:48:49.020 --> 01:48:51.100 And and recommend guests. 01:48:51.470 --> 01:48:52.270 Yeah, that too. 01:48:52.350 --> 01:48:56.830 Reach out to us if you have i ideas for for episodes or guests, let us know. 01:48:56.910 --> 01:48:58.190 We're very open to suggestions. 01:48:58.510 --> 01:49:00.990 I would have loved to have Charles Darwin on this podcast. 01:49:01.470 --> 01:49:02.750 Oh, that would have been amazing. 01:49:02.910 --> 01:49:07.070 Maybe we should get like an AI simulation of Charles Darwin and interview him. 01:49:07.390 --> 01:49:08.670 Can you do that? 01:49:09.150 --> 01:49:10.270 I mean, I think. 01:49:10.430 --> 01:49:11.950 I mean they did it with George Carlin. 01:49:12.110 --> 01:49:16.030 They had a whole AI stand up special of George Carlin. 01:49:16.270 --> 01:49:17.710 The title is actually hilarious. 01:49:17.790 --> 01:49:20.000 The title was I'm glad I'm Dead. 01:49:20.480 --> 01:49:21.680 That that's pretty good. 01:49:22.960 --> 01:49:24.160 That's pretty George Carlin. 01:49:24.320 --> 01:49:25.440 I mean, that's Carlin esque. 01:49:25.520 --> 01:49:27.600 I think that that's I'm glad I'm dead. 01:49:27.680 --> 01:49:29.200 Actually, that is exactly what he would say. 01:49:29.280 --> 01:49:29.520 Yeah. 01:49:29.840 --> 01:49:30.320 Yeah, it is. 01:49:30.400 --> 01:49:31.680 So that was pretty impressive. 01:49:32.000 --> 01:49:32.400 All right. 01:49:32.480 --> 01:49:38.000 Well, yeah, if you uh all right, well let's let's uh let's we'll re we'll revisit that for 01:49:38.000 --> 01:49:38.160 later. 01:49:38.240 --> 01:49:38.400 Okay. 01:49:38.480 --> 01:49:40.080 So maybe we'll have Charles Darwin on. 01:49:40.470 --> 01:49:41.110 Yeah, who knows? 01:49:41.270 --> 01:49:43.830 Maybe if AI keeps advancing, maybe maybe it'll happen. 01:49:44.150 --> 01:49:45.750 Yeah, before the takeover. 01:49:46.470 --> 01:49:49.670 Did you post the thing AI Dumerism is uh bullshit? 01:49:50.150 --> 01:49:51.030 Yeah, it's it's on my yeah. 01:49:51.110 --> 01:49:54.550 If you want to read about how AI is not going to kill us all, I have a post called AI 01:49:54.550 --> 01:49:55.750 Dumerism is bullshit. 01:49:56.150 --> 01:49:58.310 You should read it before AI kills us all. 01:49:58.870 --> 01:50:04.870 Yeah, that would be good, just to um prepare yourself for what is for what is not going to 01:50:04.870 --> 01:50:05.110 happen. 01:50:05.430 --> 01:50:10.460 I mean, just imagine the shot of like somebody's screen as like a terminator like foot is 01:50:10.460 --> 01:50:11.420 like crashing on the screen. 01:50:11.500 --> 01:50:12.940 That's like it ends up. 01:50:13.100 --> 01:50:16.780 I hope if if somebody is listening in Hollywood, please make that happen. 01:50:16.940 --> 01:50:21.260 It'd make an AI movie and have David's uh That would be great. 01:50:21.420 --> 01:50:22.540 That would be that would be wonderful. 01:50:22.700 --> 01:50:23.820 Honestly, that would be better. 01:50:23.900 --> 01:50:27.900 I'm I feel like if I'm gonna be wrong, I would love to be wrong in such a spectacular way. 01:50:28.700 --> 01:50:29.180 Exactly. 01:50:29.260 --> 01:50:32.140 If you're gonna do something, do it, do it, do it in a spectacular way. 01:50:32.220 --> 01:50:33.340 And that includes being wrong. 01:50:33.420 --> 01:50:33.660 Yes. 01:50:33.900 --> 01:50:34.140 Yeah. 01:50:34.300 --> 01:50:34.620 Exactly. 01:50:34.780 --> 01:50:37.340 Well, on that note, uh enjoy your week and we'll see you next week. 01:50:37.470 --> 01:50:38.750 Yep, see you next week.