The conversation, in brief.
In this episode of "Politics with Antoine Marie," hosts David Pinsof and Dave Pietraszewski are joined by guest Antoine Marie to explore political psychology through an evolutionary and computational lens. The discussion covers cognitive blindness in the social sciences, the challenges of applying evolutionary models within academic environments like France, and the role of Pleistocene-evolved minds in modern mass societies. The speakers examine how political ideologies often function as reflective beliefs or coalitional signals rather than causal behavioral drivers, and they discuss status-seeking, moral grandstanding, and the psychology behind extreme behaviors such as terrorism and mass shootings.
Through the conversation.
14 sectionsHosts David Pinsof and Dave Pietraszewski discuss David's recent experience serving on a criminal trial jury for assault with a deadly weapon, explaining how scheduling conflicts led David to interview guest Antoine Marie alone. They also touch upon the psychological nature of belief.
I served on a trial, and because the trial's over, I can actually talk about it.
“I served on a trial, and because the trial's over, I can actually talk about it.” 0:34
025:39 – 12:01Cognitive Blindness and Evolutionary Approaches to Politics
Guest Antoine Marie joins David Pinsof to discuss the pitfalls of studying politics, identifying cognitive blindness and a lack of attention to individual mental computation as major issues in social sciences. They explore how Pleistocene-evolved minds function in modern mass societies and discuss the academic landscape of evolutionary research in France.
Antoine Marie identifies cognitive blindness as a primary problem in the social sciences due to insufficient attention to how the mind works.
“the main problem is like cognitive blindness. And that's a problem that people you know have throughout the social sciences.” 7:05
Antoine Marie explains that evolved minds from the Pleistocene era operate within massively different modern societies today.
“how those minds work in mass modern societies, which are massively different in some in terms of geographical scale” 8:42
0312:02 – 16:59Computational Approaches and Folk Psychology in Political Cognition
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Antoine Marie discuss why applying a computational and mechanistic framework to social and political behavior feels counterintuitive to people. They explore how folk psychology, perceived cultural variation, and resistance to reductionism create intellectual barriers to adopting evolutionary psychological approaches to politics.
we probably underestimate the extent to which most of our cognitive processes fulfill you know evolutionary adaptive functions
“we probably underestimate the extent to which most of our cognitive processes fulfill you know evolutionary adaptive functions” 13:24
the more cultural variation you have with the behavior, the more counterintuitive it is for people to understand that it might be relying on basic computational building blocks
“the more cultural variation you have with the behavior, the more counterintuitive it is for people to understand that it might be relying on basic computational building blocks” 16:01
0416:59 – 24:07Navigating Controversies and Academic Dogmatism in France
Hosts and guest examine the dual challenges of studying politics through an evolutionary lens, discussing professional pushback, ideological dogmatism, and the dominance of social constructionism and Bourdieuian sociology in French academia. They highlight the importance of pedagogical good faith, viewpoint diversity, and managing the conflation of descriptive facts with moral implications.
the mind is wired to have difficulty distinguishing facts from moral implications
“the mind is wired to have difficulty distinguishing facts from moral implications” 20:28
France is a difficult national environment to do all this because the dominant software is really like Borduosian sociology
“France is a difficult national environment to do all this because the dominant software is really like Borduosian” 21:11
0524:07 – 29:34Evolutionary Pressures and Ideological Orthodoxy in Human Groups
Host David Pinsof and guest Antoine Marie discuss the apparent contradiction between evolutionary theories emphasizing accurate beliefs about reality and the historical tendency of human groups to form competitive coalitions characterized by dogmatism, ideological orthodoxy, and low-cost abstract political beliefs.
what we find just repeatedly throughout human history and across cultures is that when people organize into competitive coalitions, the opposite happens
“what we find just repeatedly throughout human history and across cultures is that when people organize into competitive coalitions, the opposite happens” 24:51
there has been very strong selection pressures for wanting to create communities, orthodoxies, to fit in
“So there has been very strong selection pressures for wanting to create communities, orthodoxies, to fit in” 26:08
0629:34 – 36:07Intuitive Versus Reflective Beliefs in Political Ideologies
David Pinsof and Antoine Marie explore the distinction between intuitive and reflective beliefs, evaluating whether political ideologies primarily consist of reflective beliefs that are disconnected from everyday behavior and used mainly for social signaling, status acquisition, and micropropaganda.
political ideologies have a relatively weak relationship to behavior
“I feel like political ideologies have a relatively weak relationship to behavior” 33:22
those beliefs are mostly for social consumption, that they're mostly for you know feeding and building conversations
“those beliefs are mostly for social consumption, that they're mostly for you know feeding and building conversations” 34:39
0736:07 – 42:07Reflective Beliefs and Coalitional Signaling in Politics
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Antoine Marie discuss whether political and anti-racist beliefs function as reflective beliefs that signal coalition loyalty rather than causal interventions. They explore how anti-racist activism can paradoxically trigger political backlashes and examine whether people hold genuine intuitive beliefs about abstract ideologies or use them primarily for social signaling.
the function of these beliefs are to mobilize a a coalition rather than to uh enact a kind of effective altruism
“the function the function of these beliefs are to mobilize a a coalition” 37:12
ideologies are largely if not entirely composed of reflective beliefs
“ideologies um are uh are are largely if not entirely um Composed of reflective beliefs.” 39:41
The speakers analyze the extensive research on partisan-motivated reasoning and note the lack of panic or strong motivation among the public to correct political biases. They debate whether accuracy motives extend from concrete, practical daily affairs into abstract macroscopic beliefs about society, or if such motives become entirely absent at higher levels of ideology.
The motivation to overcome political bias is virtually absent, especially in highly motivated individuals.
“The motivation to overcome political bias is virtually absent.” 44:48
Host Dave Pietraszewski, guest Antoine Marie, and David Pinsof discuss whether extreme political violence and terrorism stem from genuine ideological beliefs or calculated status-seeking behaviors. They explore how social processes, family reputation, and individual life trajectories interact to motivate actions such as suicide bombing and mass shootings.
it could be that in some cases that could be a rational decision to make
“it could be that in some cases that could be a rational decision to” 50:17
people who commit mass shootings, it's pretty clear that these are humiliated people who who are low status
“that these are humiliated people who who are low status and seek to” 54:07
The speakers examine the cognitive mechanisms behind self-sacrifice, discussing inclusive fitness, reciprocity, and the underexplored psychology of legacy and posthumous reputation. They conclude by highlighting the methodological difficulties and empirical barriers researchers face when studying extreme populations and public perceptions of martyrdom.
there's a whole understudied area of like the psychology of legacy and posthumous fitness effects
“there's a whole understudied area of like the psychology of legacy and posthumous” 56:36
if extreme self sacrifices are signals, you could understand the psychology of the signal receivers
“if extreme self sacrifices are signals, you could understand the psychology of” 58:24
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Antoine Marie discuss evolutionary perspectives on extreme behaviors, comparing suicidal political violence and ancient warfare strategies to Ed Hagen's research on suicidality as a rational signal in social power imbalances. They explore how hunter-gatherer raids and historical practices like seppuku relate to fitness, risk, and modern technological mismatch.
it can be rational to send a really extreme injurious signal or risky signal where you would risk death
“it can be rational to um send a really extreme uh uh uh injurious signal or risky signal where you would risk death” 1:00:37
if you conduct your your raid well enough, quickly enough, early enough at dawn and whatnot, the risk of being killed yourself as the assailient, as the attackant, actually quite low.
“if you conduct your your raid well enough, quickly enough, early enough at dawn and whatnot, the risk of being killed yourself as the assailient, as the attackant, actually quite low.” 1:02:53
David Pinsof and Antoine Marie discuss Marie's paper on the moralization of rationality. They examine why people who strongly claim to champion truth and logic are often more willing to share hostile partisan news. The speakers analyze how moral grandstanding and status-seeking motives drive political behavior, utilizing sacred values and rationality as a cover story.
A passage from this discussion.
“hostile news sharing with the status seeking metrics, the coefficient of moralization of” 1:07:21
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Antoine Marie discuss political psychology theories regarding sacred values, taboo trade-offs, and reputational signaling models of principal behavior. They analyze whether sacred values have true motivational traction or function as sincere posturing, and critique models of extreme individual imitation.
political entrepreneurs and and citizens etc by default claim to have uh inviolable sacred values, uh, but they will consent to trading those sacred values against other values
“claim to have uh inviolable sacred values, uh, but they will consent to” 1:12:37
you don't actually need those individuals to exist. You just need people to be able to imagine them and imagine that other people will imagine them.
“You just need people to be able to imagine them and imagine that other people will imagine” 1:17:21
In the concluding segment, the hosts wrap up their conversation, discuss Antoine Marie's science communication on Instagram, and joke about podcast production value, emails, and past episodes involving probiotics and fiber.
Antoine Marie shares information about his scientific dissemination work and video capsules on Instagram covering political psychology and social media.
“I started doing some uh video scientific dissemination uh in the form of like short video capsules on Instagram.” 1:19:03
The hosts discuss listener engagement, show notes, and mention previous discussions regarding dietary fiber and probiotics.
“Maybe we could drop some kombucha ads into the episode on the microbiome.” 1:21:57