The conversation, in brief.
In this episode of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof speak with guest Thom Scott-Phillips about human communication, evolutionary psychology, and academic structures. Scott-Phillips argues that human communication relies fundamentally on theory of mind and the expression of mental states rather than simple code models. The conversation examines language evolution, relevance theory, cognitive adaptationism, and how art functions as a form of open-ended communication. Finally, the speakers critique current academic incentives, grant funding pressures, and publishing norms before closing with a discussion on the history and cultural values of Lindy Hop swing dancing.
Through the conversation.
18 sections010:00 – 8:33Introduction to Language and Ostensive Communication
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce the podcast theme of communication and welcome guest Thom Scott-Phillips. They discuss how human communication differs fundamentally from a simple code model, operating instead through the sophisticated expression and recognition of mental states, much like a shared understanding built on sparse linguistic cues.
human communication is predicated on expressing and recognizing mental states
“human communication is predicated on expressing and uh recognizing mental states” 5:44
communication comes in more than one variety and human communication is a distinctive variety
“I think communication comes in more than one variety. Um And I think in particular, what humans do is a distinctive variety.” 5:21
028:33 – 12:04Theory of Mind and the Complexity of Human Communication
The speakers explore why human communication requires advanced theory of mind capabilities. Drawing an analogy to vision science and depth perception, Thom Scott-Phillips and the hosts address the objection that ordinary people do not consciously perform complex mental calculations, explaining that phenomenological simplicity does not imply simple underlying cognitive processes.
human-style communication cannot occur without a recognition of mental states and theory of mind
“human communication requires a sophisticated theory of mind or ability to model others' mental states” 8:33
0312:04 – 13:49Evolutionary History and Simple Versus Complex Tasks
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Thom Scott-Phillips discuss why tasks that feel simple to humans, such as object recognition, navigation, and humor, actually require extensive evolutionary history and common sense knowledge. In contrast, computational tasks like mathematics involve abstraction and are easier for artificial intelligence.
the things that feel easy are really hard and the things that seem hard are easy
“the things that feel easy are really hard and the things that seem hard are easy” 12:19
0413:49 – 24:05Language Acquisition, Innateness, and Social Conventions
The speakers examine the debate between Chomskyan generative grammar and construction grammar. Thom Scott-Phillips argues that grammar and language are not strictly innate adaptations, but rather sophisticated cultural and social conventions designed for expressing and revealing communicative intentions, supported by downstream cognitive adaptations.
grammar doesn't have to be innate. It probably isn't. It's probably better understood as a byproduct
“grammar doesn't have to be innate. Uh it probably isn't. It's probably better understood as a byproduct” 14:29
constructions are conventions for doing the adaptive task that human communication is designed to do, which is expressing and revealing intentions
“constructions are conventions for doing the adaptive task that human communication is designed to do, which is expressing and revealing intentions” 19:10
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Thom Scott-Phillips discuss whether language and its underlying grammatical constructions are evolutionary adaptations. They connect this to a broader paradigm shift in cognitive science, moving away from viewing humans solely as solitary rational agents toward understanding us as deeply social animals navigating complex social environments.
the machinery to um host form function pairs and to indeed not just to host some but a vast number of them and to plug them together. Yeah, that to me is most plausibly explained as an adaptation to the fact that humans are a linguistic species.
“the machinery to um host form function pairs” 25:45
really we're it's it's better to think of of humans not as the rational animal or as the intelligent animal, but as the social animal.
“humans not as the rational animal or as the intelligent animal, but as the social animal.” 27:29
0630:54 – 36:06Minsky's Frames, Communication, and the Art Experience
The hosts and Thom Scott-Phillips explore Marvin Minsky's ideas about cognitive frames and how communication relies on coordinating shared ontologies and mental representations. They then transition to discussing human art through the lens of relevance theory and communication, highlighting a paper co-authored by Kate McCallum called The Art Experience.
What matters is exactly what you're describing, Tom, which is sort of the communication.
“What matters is exactly what you're describing, Tom” 32:14
the central idea, one of the central ideas in relevance theory um is that what audiences do when they pick up on a communicative stimulus
“one of the central ideas in relevance theory” 35:36
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Thom Scott-Phillips discuss how art functions similarly to language on a continuum of communication. They explore how both art and language raise expectations of relevance, prompting audiences to infer the intentions and meanings behind stimuli, akin to playing a cognitive puzzle or game.
We use these constructions in very precise ways, for example, when we do mathematics, right? It's hyper precise
“We use these constructions in very precise ways, for example, when we do mathematics, right? It's hyper precise” 37:30
They produce stimuli that if the they're put on the white wall and then if you engage with them, presuming that they're relevant in some way and you search for some interpretation
“They produce stimuli that if the they're put on the white wall and then if you engage with them, presuming that they're relevant in some way and you search for some interpretation” 37:48
0844:19 – 48:09The Social and Evolutionary Implications of Communication
The speakers examine the openness and ambiguity of art as a deliberate design feature rather than a flaw. They discuss the severe social and Darwinian consequences of violating principles of relevance, noting how effective communication and linguistic coordination impact social partnerships and mate selection.
There needn't be a definitive interpretation
“there needn't be a definitive interpretation” 44:58
Every time you try and communicate, every time you behave ostensibly, you draw someone's attention, you are making a commitment, and you're making a commitment to the relevance
“Every time you try and communicate, every time you behave ostensibly, you draw someone's attention, you are making a commitment, and you're making a commitment to the relevance” 47:53
Guest Thom Scott-Phillips and host David Pinsof discuss the evolution of human communication, focusing on the evolutionary pressure of relevance and the inherent trade-offs and reputational costs associated with eliciting and competing for attention.
A passage from this discussion.
“that's gonna, as you say, come with social costs for you.” 48:13
Host David Pinsof and guest Thom Scott-Phillips examine whether non-evolutionary psychology is possible, arguing that all psychological research inherently relies on assumptions about evolutionary mechanisms and functions.
to be properly non-evolutionary, you don't just have to drop that, you have to drop notions of mechanism and notions of function
“to be properly non-evolutionary, you don't just have to drop that, you have to drop” 55:13
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Thom Scott-Phillips discuss why evolutionary psychology is better understood as adaptationist cognitive science, exploring selection pressures, the evolutionary ecology of the human mind, and how misleading field names perpetuate false dichotomies between biology and culture.
evolutionary psychology, the field has been misnamed from the beginning
“evolutionary psychology, the field has been misnamed from the beginning.” 1:00:50
cognitive adaptationism in my mind is actually what it is
“Cognitive adaptationism in my mind is actually what it is.” 1:01:12
The speakers examine the state of psychological science, critiquing an overemphasis on data collection and superficial metrics at the expense of rigorous theory. They compare psychology unfavorably to physics regarding theoretical positions and discuss how funding incentives shape the discipline.
one of the problems of our science is the data is really important
“one of the problems of our science is, and it goes back to this Chomsky thing, is the data is really important.” 1:04:26
we need more theory in psychology because the our object of study is so much more complicated
“We need more theory in psychology because the our object of study is so much more complicated with so many different interacting variables.” 1:09:53
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Thom Scott-Phillips discuss structural incentives in academia, examining how hiring committees and grant panels often prioritize publication quantity over slow, theory-driven science. The speakers explore the underappreciated value of empirical description and ethnography in the human sciences, noting that while descriptive work is crucial for establishing baseline facts, the current academic system struggles to reward purely descriptive or highly interdisciplinary research.
Your selective regime is selecting for a particular kind of science that has nothing to do with what your explicit intentions are
“Your selective regime is selecting for a particular kind of science that has nothing to do with what your explicit intentions are.” 1:12:25
Description is important, But unfortunately we get the worst of both worlds because we don't get good theory and we don't get good description
“Description is important, But unfortunately we get the worst of both worlds because we don't get good theory and we don't get good description.” 1:14:23
Thom Scott-Phillips reflects on his recent essay detailing the profound career uncertainty and precarity faced by interdisciplinary and theoretically minded academics. The hosts and guest examine how institutional structures fail to incentivize interdisciplinary scholarship and discuss potential systemic reforms, such as creating permanent research scientist positions rather than relying solely on temporary postdocs and faculty tracks.
I have two weaknesses in inverted commerce. And I don't they aren't weaknesses, but that they they are in terms of science. But I think they are weaknesses on the job market
“I have two weaknesses in inverted commerce. And I don't they aren't weaknesses, but that they they are in terms of science. But I think they are weaknesses on the job market.” 1:20:58
What we don't have is just a permanent research scientist like a permanent administrator
“What we don't have is just a permanent research scientist like a permanent administrator.” 1:22:40
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof discuss with guest Thom Scott-Phillips how academic funding structures prioritize grants over actual scientific answers. They explore how grant application systems impose massive time costs on scientists, likening the process to inefficient competitions, and consider alternative models like lotteries.
scientists have internalized that grants are a goal, not a means
“scientists have internalized that grants are a goal, not a means, but a” 1:24:45
it's exactly as an institutional structure, the exact worst way to give resources to scientists
“It's it's exactly as an institutional structure, the exact worst way to uh give resources to scientists.” 1:26:54
Guest Thom Scott-Phillips discusses the origins and global history of Lindy Hop with hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof. They explore how the swing dance emerged from African-American communities in Harlem during the 1920s and 1930s, reflecting values of individual freedom alongside collective coordination.
Lindy Hop is a swing dance created in African-American communities in Harlem
“Lindy Hop is a is a dance, is a swing dance, partner dance, uh created in African-American communities in Harlem” 1:29:06
In the Lindy Hop, you're still very clearly dancing with someone else and you're coordinated
“In the Lindy Hop, you're still very you're very clearly dancing with someone else and you're coordinated” 1:33:32
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Thom Scott-Phillips wrap up the discussion, mentioning upcoming talks and websites before transitioning into the closing announcements of the episode.
The host mentions posting Thom Scott-Phillips's website and things like that before thanking him for appearing on the show.
“Tom we'll we'll we'll post post uh your your website and things like” 1:36:34
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof discuss ways listeners can support the podcast, including leaving reviews, subscribing, visiting Patreon, and offering feedback on potential merchandise like fanny packs and hats.
The host outlines various ways listeners can support the podcast such as subscribing, leaving reviews, and visiting their Patreon page.
“they can like us, they can subscribe to our podcast, they can leave us a kind” 1:36:56