Through the conversation.
24 sections010:00 – 5:57Introducing Clark Barrett and His Academic Background
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce guest Clark Barrett, a prominent anthropologist and evolutionary psychologist from UCLA. They discuss his influential work bridging evolutionary psychology, cultural evolution, and behavioral ecology, before transitioning into Barrett's early life ambitions, his undergraduate studies in biology at Harvard, and his early fascination with marine biology and fish behavior.
Clark is sort of, I I, in my view, is sort of the um second wave evpsy person, one of the main second wave evpsych people
“Clark is sort of, I I, in my view, is sort of the um second wave evpsy person” 1:16
his early dream was to be a marine biologist, influenced by childhood viewings of Jacques Cousteau
“my early dream was to be a marine biologist, um, influenced by childhood viewings” 3:17
025:58 – 12:00Transitioning from Fish Morphology to Evolutionary Psychology
Clark Barrett discusses how his early background in functional morphology and fish biology informed his later transition to studying humans. He describes stumbling into the epicenter of evolutionary psychology at UCSB by finding John Tooby and Lita Cosmides in the phone book, and how they guided him from broad questions of consciousness toward tractable dissertation research on predator-prey dynamics and agency.
And so yeah, that's when I switched over within UCSB to work with um Tubi and Cosmodies.
“that's when I switched over within UCSB to work with um Tubi and Cosmodies.” 7:51
they did the right thing as advisors and said, that's too big of a bite to to you know to attempt for a PhD.
“they did the right thing as advisors and said, that's too big of a bite to to you know to attempt for a PhD.” 11:17
0312:00 – 16:35Evolutionary Approaches to Moral Cognition and Free Will
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Clark Barrett discuss human social cognition, investigating why people attribute free will and choice to others. Barrett explains that evolutionary approaches examine the adaptive functions of moral cognition and culpability rather than solely relying on introspective or armchair philosophical methods.
Human social cognition is sophisticated enough that distinctions between voluntarily chosen actions and other behaviors carry valid underlying insights.
“human social cognition is so good that I think that when people make a distinction” 12:24
Morality serves as an effective domain to study human thinking directly because the phenomena themselves are constructed by the human mind.
“the object itself may be entirely a construction of the human mind. So if you want to understand it” 15:07
0416:35 – 24:02Cross-Cultural Commonalities and Cultural Models of the Mind
The speakers explore whether moral cognition and mind-reading are universal or shaped by culture. Barrett argues that cross-cultural data reveal significant similarities in folk models of the mind, while acknowledging that different cultures emphasize distinct aspects of cognition, such as rational deduction versus embodied knowledge.
Cross-cultural research reveals more similarity and universality in how people conceptualize the mind and morality than some anthropologists assume.
“I think there's a lot more similarity or universality than um than some anthropologists might think” 17:56
Cultural models of the mind vary in their flavors or vibes, with Western philosophy focusing heavily on rationality compared to other traditions.
“are very oriented towards rationality and conscious thought processes and processes of inference and deduction.” 20:29
The hosts and Clark Barrett discuss cultural variations in mental state terms, contrasting the Western focus on autonomous rationality with embodied and intuitive models of knowledge found in other traditions, such as the Quechua concept of yachai.
the pinnacle of being an intelligent, rational, in some ways actor in the world, a wise actor is to, you know, basically have all of the important knowledge subsumed into a sort of subcognitive, if you will, space where you just act.
“the pinnacle of being an intelligent, rational, in some ways actor in the world, a wise” 29:39
The speakers examine how scientific disciplines value propositional logic over embodied craft, discuss the rhetorical nature of science, and explore potential connections between intuitive embodied models of the mind and supernatural or spiritual beliefs.
part of what we're doing is rhetoric and persuasion. You know, and you have people like um Hugo Mercier and others, you know, who have argued that um, you know, these kinds of things are about changing other people's minds
“part of what we're doing is rhetoric and persuasion.” 32:49
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Clark Barrett discuss the tension between excessive hyper-rationalism and embodied, intuitive connections to the physical world. They touch upon historical shifts in science, Konrad Lorenz's critiques of mechanistic animal models, changing perspectives on animal and plant cognition, and the historical avoidance of anthropomorphism in behavioral science.
when you get into that space of logic and rationality, it does lead you away from um, It can lead you away from a spiritual attitude about the world
“when you get into that space of logic and rationality, it does lead you away from um, It can lead you away from a spiritual attitude about the world.” 38:43
The speakers transition to discussing hunting magic and pre-hunt songs among the Shuar community. Clark Barrett explores how these traditional practices can function as technologies of the self to induce focus and flow states. They also discuss how human technologies and rituals generally operate under a condition of incomplete individual knowledge.
one possibility that I discuss is, you know, that these could be kind of technologies of the self where they're basically getting you into getting the hunter into a particular kind of mental state and focus
“one possibility that I discuss is, you know, that these could be kind of technologies of the self where they're basically getting you into getting the hunter into a particular kind of mental state and focus” 45:47
most of the things that we do are in a state of incomplete knowledge
“most of the things that we do are in a state of incomplete knowledge.” 47:08
0948:07 – 54:31Comparing Scientific Statistics to Indigenous Rituals and Technology
Host Dave Pietraszewski, host David Pinsof, and guest Clark Barrett discuss parallels between ancestral hunting technologies, statistical rituals in scientific research, and human reliance on opaque procedures. Barrett highlights how both indigenous practices and null hypothesis significance testing involve trust in efficacy conditions without full comprehension, leading to potential overconfidence and oversight.
what I compare it to is our use of statistics and science
“what I compare it to is our use of statistics and” 48:20
people don't know the conditions of efficacy for the statistics to give the right answer
“often people don't know the conditions of efficacy for the” 49:01
David Pinsof and Clark Barrett explore how supernatural concepts, telepathy, precognition, and magical readings often emerge naturally when complex causal processes remain opaque to the observer. They examine how highly developed social cognition, intuition, and cultural evolutionary processes can be misinterpreted as supernatural phenomena when underlying behavioral cues are not consciously understood.
a lot of our supernatural concepts are correct in a way
“a lot of our supernatural concepts are correct in a way.” 54:32
these people are just really good at social cognition
“they're really good at social cognition.” 58:11
Host Dave Pietraszewski, host David Pinsof, and guest Clark Barrett discuss cognitive processes during dreaming and altered states of consciousness, comparing them to AI noise injection and Bayesian learning. They explore how non-conscious churning and psychological technologies can help individuals break out of overly rigid cognitive priors and discover creative insights.
The hosts and guest discuss how dreaming and subconscious cognitive processing can help generate creative insights and alternative solutions.
“creative insights while they're dreaming.” 1:03:03
The speakers discuss how psychedelics or dreams might disrupt rigid cognitive priors in Bayesian learning by introducing novel stimuli.
“making yourself out of like overly rigid priors that have developed” 1:08:44
The speakers transition to discussing cultural narratives surrounding unexplained deaths, mentioning accounts of ghosts and phantasms. Guest Clark Barrett recounts his fieldwork in a Shuar community during the late 1990s involving a fishing trip, detailing the local use of the plant poison barbasco as a fishing technology.
Clark Barrett describes a traditional Amazonian fishing technique using a plant poison called barbasco.
“they use this plant poison called Barbosco, which is a kind of vine.” 1:11:02
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof talk with guest Clark Barrett about how communities handle severe interpersonal conflicts, exploring a specific incident framed around spiritual claims versus murder, and discussing the evolutionary and behavioral science behind interpersonal violence and local disputes.
For one of the families or one of the yeah, one of the parties, it was better for them in the social situation to have you know to have that be the the story, basically.
“it was better for them in the social situation to have you know to have that be the the story” 1:14:06
And so, you know, this was a case of a kind of beef that lasted for multiple years and um there there you know it it didn't extinguish the idea that this was a murder
“this was a case of a kind of beef that lasted for multiple years” 1:15:19
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Clark Barrett transition to discussing the indigenous music scene in South America, traditional and modern hybrid musical forms, and the broader evolutionary puzzles surrounding music, emotional responses, and mathematical aesthetics.
The traditional schwar instrumentation is is is like drums. They also have a there's a kind of violin type of thing. People play guitars, flutes. Um, but yeah, the the the young kids have been transforming this, you know, as they as as music does everywhere in the world, just taking all the ingredients.
“the young kids have been transforming this, you know, as they as as music does everywhere in the world” 1:19:49
Clark Barrett and the hosts discuss how music evokes powerful emotional effects and whether it has a singular adaptive function or emerges from complex underlying phenomena.
“we're just awash in music and the and it just has such such a hugely uh powerful emotional effect on us.” 1:21:14
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Clark Barrett discuss how high-level scientific expertise resembles art and intuition rather than explicit rules. The speakers reflect on the apprenticeship-like culture within evolutionary psychology centers, noting how practitioners absorb unconscious conceptual frameworks over time.
when you talk to like the best scientists, a lot of it is like creativity and art
“when you talk to like the best scientists, a lot of it is like creativity and art” 1:24:48
you've absorbed a lot of good ideas and you're you're good at distinguishing the good ideas from the bad ideas
“you've absorbed a lot of good ideas and you're you're good at distinguishing the good ideas from the bad ideas” 1:25:31
Clark Barrett, Dave Pietraszewski, and David Pinsof examine the need for greater demographic and conceptual diversity within evolutionary science. They discuss generative concepts like mismatch, critique the heavy reliance on Western philosophical traditions in moral psychology, and consider how engagement with diverse cultures can broaden scientific understanding.
when you're in evolutionary science, you have you all we've we also have certain kinds of concepts that are incredibly generative, like mismatch
“when you're in evolutionary science, you have you all we've we also have certain kinds of concepts that are incredibly generative, like mismatch” 1:27:10
the literature and moral psychology is absolutely saturated with Western philosophy, historical traditions
“the literature and moral psychology is absolutely saturated with Western philosophy, historical traditions” 1:34:22
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Clark Barrett discuss the limitations of traditional vignette-based moral research. Barrett explains how psychology experiments often strip away relationship context and personal identity, whereas cross-cultural and anthropological evidence shows that moral evaluation heavily depends on social relationships rather than isolated actions.
Everything is embedded in within relationships. And the same act matters differently depending on what your relationship is.
“Everything is embedded in within relationships. And the same act matters differently depending on what your relationship is.” 1:37:25
People that study like legal cognition, I think there's a tendency to say that's irrational or bad to include all that information
“there's a tendency to say that's irrational or bad to include all that information” 1:42:59
The hosts and Clark Barrett discuss how social embeddedness shapes moral norms across different groups and cultures. They explore examples such as Romani moral traditions regarding outsiders, illustrating why behaviors like lying are judged entirely by relationship context rather than abstract universal rules.
For them, like it could be it could be an ethical thing. Like if we tell the truth to someone who's not a part of your group, that could be immoral.
“For them, like it could be it could be an ethical thing.” 1:47:26
191:48:24 – 1:54:54Universal Distinctions Between Intentional Actions and Accidental Harm
Clark Barrett and the hosts discuss cross-cultural perceptions of intentionality in moral judgment, questioning the idea that some societies are purely outcome-oriented. Barrett explains empirical findings showing that people across diverse cultures make fine-grained legal and moral distinctions between different types of accidents, such as recklessness and negligence, highlighting the deep overlap between morality and epistemology.
The distinction between intentional and various forms of accidental is universal and everyone can understand it.
“the distinction between intentional and and you know various forms of accidental is universal” 1:48:32
Cross-cultural studies show that people everywhere make fine-grained distinctions between negligence and recklessness.
“everywhere that we looked, um, people do make fine-grained distinctions between different kinds of accident” 1:50:42
The speakers explore why cultural variation in moral systems appears to downplay mental states, connecting it to Julian Lapenie's modeling work on low-trust environments and ethnographic concepts of mental opacity. They also consider how local social ecologies, such as repeated interactions with unhelpful partners, shape whether people care about intentions versus direct consequences.
Rigid moral systems lacking excuses tend to evolve in low-trust settings where testimony about mental states is unreliable.
“these kind of rigid all or nothing moral systems where there are no excuses, you know, your mental states don't matter, that these tend to uh uh evolve uh naturally in low trust settings” 1:55:09
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Clark Barrett discuss scientific humility and reflexivity in evolutionary behavioral sciences. Barrett argues that genuine hypothesis testing is rare, adaptationism standards are often too low, and researchers frequently rely on thin evidence such as correlations or broad universal patterns without sufficiently ruling out alternative explanations.
when you look at the the amount of stuff that's out there, like genuine hypothesis testing is actually kind of rare, I think.
“genuine hypothesis testing is actually kind of rare, I think” 2:03:15
if you look out there, I feel like the bar is not high in a lot of the studies that are out there.
“if you look out there, I feel like the bar is not high in a lot of the studies that are out there” 2:05:07
As the episode winds down, the hosts thank Clark Barrett for fostering a kinder and more welcoming scientific culture. Barrett reflects on how many perceived conflicts between evolutionary science and other fields like cultural anthropology are unnecessary, advocating for an inclusive community that embraces human diversity and curiosity.
my experience is that that's not true or it doesn't need to be true
“my experience is that that's not true or it doesn't need to be true” 2:10:58
you can have an evolutionary science that takes cultural phenomena and and human diversity incredibly seriously
“you can have an evolutionary science that takes cultural phenomena and and human diversity incredibly seriously” 2:11:04
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Clark Barrett discuss expanding the tent of evolutionary psychology through an absorbing mindset rather than a conquering one. They emphasize steel manning alternative theories, translating non-evolutionary ideas into an evolutionary framework for greater rigor, and moving past historical combativeness.
Clark Barrett argues that adopting an absorbing mindset and translating alternative theories into an evolutionary framework is more rigorous than simply dismissing them.
“It's actually more rigorous to absorb than to just sort of do the mediocre thing of like, well, that's a crap theory.” 2:13:23
Clark Barrett suggests that non-evolutionary theories can frequently be translated and integrated fruitfully into an evolutionary framework.
“a lot of non-evolutionary theories often can be translated uh into an evolutionary framework quite fruitfully.” 2:15:25
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof wrap up their conversation with guest Clark Barrett, thanking him for the discussion. In the outro, the hosts joke about merchandise like a podcast coffee table book and encourage listeners to support the show via Patreon, reviews, and social media.
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof conclude the episode by thanking Clark Barrett and asking listeners to support the podcast on Patreon.
“remind you to please support the podcast by uh visiting our Patreon page” 2:17:53