Through the conversation.
22 sections010:00 – 6:09Introduction and Steve Neuberg's Path to Social Psychology
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce the episode with guest Steve Neuberg, discussing the sociology of science and how Steve bridged social psychology and evolutionary theory. Steve then reflects on his early academic journey, starting as a premed biology major before discovering social psychology through an animal behavior and large introductory psychology class at Cornell.
Steve, thanks for being here. [...] To my mind, you are one of the key people who brought the two fields together.
“To my mind, you are one of the key people who brought the two fields together.” 2:58
I started as a biomajor. I was gonna be uh I was gonna be Hawkeye Pierce. I was gonna be a smart ass cardiac surgeon.
“I started as a biomajor. I was gonna be uh I was gonna be Hawkeye Pierce.” 3:40
026:09 – 12:05Early Research Experiences and Integrating Evolution into Social Psychology
Steve Neuberg recounts becoming a psychology major at Cornell, working with early mentors like Tom Gilovich and John Bargh, and conducting undergraduate observational studies on social norms and sex roles. He also discusses his subsequent graduate school decisions and working with Susan Fiske to integrate motivation into cognitive models.
social psychologists ought to love evolutionary psychology, right? Because it's fundamentally about how environments and ecology sort of shape... what our psychology is
“social psychologists ought to love evolutionary psychology, right?” 7:28
with Susan, we were sort of on the cutting edge in social cognition of trying to bring motivation into cognition.
“we were sort of on the cutting edge in social cognition of trying to bring motivation into cognition.” 11:34
0312:05 – 16:34Foundational Influences and Early Motivational Social Cognition
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Steve Neuberg discuss Neuberg's early career in social cognition focusing on motivation and outcome dependency. Neuberg explains how reading Robin Fox's paper on stereotyping and prejudice as an adaptation prompted him to think about his own work on individuation and social contexts through an evolutionary lens.
A passage from this discussion.
“And you know, the work that we did uh that ended up I think being pretty important was, you” 12:17
0416:35 – 24:08Stigma, Group Function, and Transition to Evolutionary Psychology
Steve Neuberg recounts a pivotal conversation about stigma on a boat with Brenda Major and Jenny Crocker during a Dartmouth conference, which led him to reject arbitrary views of deviance and instead view stigma as a mechanism of social control that helps human groups succeed. The hosts and guest also discuss psychology's empirical receptivity to evolutionary perspectives.
Neuberg realized that viewing stigma as entirely arbitrary made no sense and required a deeper evolutionary function
“And I'm on the boat and I realize this makes no sense at all. Of course, this isn't the case. There has to be some kind of uh uh universality, some deeper function.” 18:59
0524:08 – 30:32Communicating Evolutionary Ideas and Overcoming Resistance in Social Psychology
Steve Neuberg discusses with Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof how he approaches presenting evolutionary ideas in social psychology. Unlike the traditional Santa Barbara method of deriving hypotheses strictly from deep first principles, Neuberg often starts with known social phenomena and works backward, which he suggests makes evolutionary concepts more approachable and less threatening to traditional social psychologists.
one of the benefits I have is that uh I I was never trained as an evolutionary biologist.
“one of the benefits I have is that uh I I was never trained as an evolutionary biologist” 25:24
I think this is maybe an interesting difference between sort of the model that we have here for example and the and the UCSB model
“this is maybe an interesting difference between sort of the model that we have here for example and the and the UCSB model” 28:25
0630:32 – 36:10Navigating Ideological Resistance and Misconceptions in Stereotype Research
Steve Neuberg, Dave Pietraszewski, and David Pinsof explore the ideological resistance and misunderstandings surrounding evolutionary research on stereotypes, prejudice, and sex differences. Neuberg notes that critics often fear evolutionary explanations imply genetic determinism or kernels of truth regarding race and gender, but emphasizes that empirical data ultimately reveal deeper nuance in human social cognition.
what's really clear is that in the areas that I focus on, you know, how people think is so much more nuanced
“what's really clear is that in the areas that I focus on, you know, how people think is so much more nuanced” 34:50
0736:10 – 42:10Complementary Approaches and Task Analysis in Evolutionary Psychology
Steve Neuberg and the hosts discuss the relationship between traditional social psychology and evolutionary approaches, emphasizing task analysis, phenomenon-first versus adaptation-first research strategies, and the value of integrating deep evolutionary logic with real-world observations of complex phenomena.
the skill in the art is to look at a complicated real-world phenomena and pare it down to at least one or two really plausible sets of adaptive problems
“The skill in the art is to look at a complicated real-world phenomena and pare it down to at least one or two really plausible sets of adaptive problems” 39:49
0842:13 – 48:12Explanatory Depth and Scientific Aesthetics in Psychology
The speakers examine why some psychologists remain skeptical or resistant to evolutionary perspectives, comparing different appetites for explanatory depth, scientific aesthetics, and the analogy of trying to fix a complex machine without knowing its evolved functions.
A passage from this discussion.
“Um and some people uh are not as hungry for explanatory depth.” 45:21
0948:13 – 54:41Academic Culture and Perceptions of Evolutionary Psychology
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Steve Neuberg discuss how academic theories serve as coalitional markers and why younger scholars navigate changing socio-political climates, institutional decay, and pressures surrounding scientific acceptance differently across generations.
Steve Neuberg notes that younger scholars have historically been more open to evolutionary psychology compared to older generations.
“younger people, and I still think this is the case, that that younger scholars are way more open to what we're doing” 49:37
The speakers examine how reproducibility concerns and fierce public criticism have driven scientists toward safer, narrower research agendas, discouraging bold theoretical risks and imaginative scientific inquiry.
Steve Neuberg uses Enrico Fermi's critique to emphasize that scientific research should be theoretically exciting rather than mere brick-laying.
“Research appears to be technically impeccable, but theoretically unexciting.” 59:01
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Steve Neuberg discuss the importance of taking scientific risks, proposing bold ideas even if they turn out to be wrong, and how psychology's replication and theory crises shape academic publishing, career incentives, and fear of failure.
we need more people doing is and and I don't care if you're wrong, right?
“what we really need more people doing is and and I don't care if you're wrong, right?” 1:00:24
If it's an interesting question, the data are going to be valuable no matter what.
“If it's an interesting question, the data are going to be valuable no matter what.” 1:01:44
The speakers examine how risk aversion among journal editors and funding agencies fosters safe, incremental science. Steve Neuberg reflects on his past editorial experiences and contrasts the pressures faced by early-career researchers versus tenured professors.
The journal landscape is really bad right now and leads to safe science.
“the journal landscape is um is really bad right now.” 1:07:47
I'd rather have an idea that turns out to be wrong and get people talking.
“I'd rather have an idea that turns out to be wrong.” 1:10:46
131:12:19 – 1:20:03Interdisciplinary Collaboration, Academic Norms, and Giving Benefit of the Doubt
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Steve Neuberg discuss the challenges of interdisciplinary science, tribalism within psychology, and the lack of a cohesive paradigm. They explore how academic norms, the lack of benefit of the doubt, and the ease of being offended create barriers to creative scientific communication and risk-taking.
And you know, and so I think like going up in front of a group of people, violating the norm, knowing you're doing that by having a different approach, it's a vulnerability.
“violating the norm, knowing you're doing that by having a different approach, it's a vulnerability” 1:17:01
We don't give people the benefit of the doubt and we're too easily offended.
“We don't give people the benefit of the doubt and we're too easily offended.” 1:19:48
141:20:03 – 1:24:23Scientific Controversies, Construct Measurement, and Academic Engagement
The speakers examine institutional incentives for controversy on social media and how conflict can act as a powerful reinforcement. Steve Neuberg shares a personal retrospective example from the 1980s involving a debate over psychological constructs, scale overlap, and navigating a contentious conference panel with professional colleagues.
And to their credit, the conference organizers said this is science.
“the conference organizers said this is science.” 1:24:02
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Steve Neuberg discuss academic conflicts, historical debates in evolutionary psychology, mentoring networks like Irv Devore's influence, and reflections on scholarly rivalries.
And and it's at the end of a session. people aren't leaving the room.
“And and it's at the end of a session. people aren't leaving the room.” 1:25:00
the greater the social content of a discipline, the slower its progress.
“the greater the social content of a discipline, the slower its progress.” 1:28:01
Guest Steve Neuberg explains the affordance management approach to stereotypes and prejudice, highlighting recent work by colleagues on directed stereotypes and relational behavioral inclinations towards specific groups.
And that's the idea of directed stereotypes.
“And that's the idea of directed stereotypes.” 1:31:47
As soon as you add the towards whom, all of a sudden there's all these things that swap.
“As soon as you add the towards whom, all of a sudden there's all these things that swap.” 1:33:45
Steve Neuberg and David Pinsof discuss how prejudice and stereotypes involve complex emotional profiles rather than a simple positive-negative continuum. They explore research on anti-Semitism, noting how perceived political alliance and enemy structures predict negative attitudes, and reflect on the functional complexity of intergroup conflict from an evolutionary perspective.
just those indirect pathways are explaining something like forty percent of the variation in anti Semitism
“just those indirect pathways are explaining something like forty percent of the variation” 1:39:32
The speakers examine why researchers often resist complex models of prejudice, suggesting that acknowledging structural solutions can feel discouraging for psychologists focused on individual interventions. Steve Neuberg then emphasizes the importance of mentoring younger generations of scientists to advance these complex evolutionary frameworks.
Steve Neuberg notes that science advances as older generations are succeeded by younger scholars who adopt new methodological and conceptual tools.
“science progresses one funeral at a time” 1:46:02
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Steve Neuberg discuss the importance of writing academic papers for young graduate students, who serve as an impartial jury with fresh eyes. They also touch upon principles of respectful intellectual engagement and how to handle academic disagreements constructively.
the open-minded attention of young scientists is probably the most important resource
“the open-minded attention of young scientists is probably the most important resource” 1:48:44
attempt to express your target's position so clearly, vividly, and fairly
“attempt to express your target's position so clearly, vividly, and fairly” 1:51:26
Steve Neuberg shares his work on 'Psych for Life,' an initiative aiming to deliver evidence-based psychological insights and actionable life skills to alumni and the public through a new startup app. The hosts conclude the episode by reflecting on the conversation and discussing beliefs and cognition.
A passage from this discussion.
“evidence-based psychology, uh science, right, that says that has useful uh” 1:54:40
The hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof briefly touch upon the topic of pseudo-beliefs, referencing previous conversations with Hugo Mercier and Dan Williams. Following this, they transition into standard closing housekeeping, reminding listeners to share the show on social media, support them on Patreon, and leave kind reviews.
The hosts discuss how actual behavior during real conspiracies differs from expressed beliefs, touching on pseudo-beliefs.
“Like like we've talked about, like if you actually the way people believe act when there's” 2:00:32
The hosts outline the ways listeners can support the podcast.
“support us on Patreon, leave us a kind review.” 2:01:09
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof share anecdotes and colorful stories about evolutionary biologist Robert Trivers before officially concluding the episode and thanking their guest Steve Neuberg and their audience for listening.
The speakers mention hearing numerous colorful stories about Robert Trivers.
“I've never heard so many stories from people having interactions” 2:01:52
The hosts officially conclude the episode and sign off for the week.
“it was wonderful uh to uh to have Steve on.” 2:02:13