The conversation, in brief.
In this episode, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof are joined by guest Michelle Sugiyama to explore the evolutionary psychology of storytelling and cultural transmission. Sugiyama discusses how behaviors categorized in Western scholarship as arts and leisure frequently function as pedagogical tools in oral hunter-gatherer societies. The conversation examines how ecological nomenclature, lunar calendars, and fictional narratives encode practical affordances, mapping onto human agency detection and counterfactual reasoning. The speakers also debate whether storytelling and song represent standalone evolutionary adaptations or cultural inventions built upon existing cognitive capacities. Additional topics include audience correction mechanisms, attention as a limited communal resource, trickster humor, and the role of war narratives in group mobilization.
Through the conversation.
14 sections010:00 – 4:16Introduction to Stories and Cultural Transmission
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce guest Michelle Sugiyama, discussing her research into the evolutionary psychology of storytelling, oral cultures, cultural transmission, and the broader pedagogical functions of arts and leisure in hunter-gatherer societies.
Michelle Sugiyama explains that she studies cultural transmission and how oral hunter-gatherer societies maintain and transmit communal knowledge over time.
“I actually studied cultural transmission, um, what I characterize as the logistics of” 3:04
Sugiyama notes that behaviors categorized in Western scholarship as arts and leisure often function as pedagogy in hunter-gatherer societies.
“a lot of the behaviors that Western scholarship characterizes as arts and leisure in” 3:51
024:17 – 12:04Ecological Nomenclature and Functional Classification
The hosts and Michelle Sugiyama explore how hunter-gatherer nomenclature, including animal, place, and moon names, encodes ecological knowledge and practical affordances efficiently to aid memory, transmission, and survival.
Sugiyama explains that names of months in forager lunar calendars encode information about seasonal resources and weather conditions.
“these moons, these names encode information about” 5:11
0312:04 – 17:37Language as Social Cooperation and the Emergence of Meaning
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Michelle Sugiyama discuss theories of language, contrasting the traditional view of language as an explicit code with Tom Scott Phillips's perspective of language as a technology for social cooperation and coordination. Referencing a Blackfoot creation story shared by Sugiyama, they examine how language and communication emerge to help individuals understand their roles, coordinate tasks, and facilitate teaching within a group.
A passage from this discussion.
“It reminds me a lot of um Tom Scott Phillips's perspective on language.” 12:29
0417:37 – 24:06Storytelling Structure and Evolutionary Psychology of Narrative
David Pinsof and Michelle Sugiyama explore how storytelling serves as an efficient mode of transmitting ecological knowledge by mapping directly onto human agency detection systems. They discuss how narrative ingredients like characters, settings, conflict, and emotional intensity or graphic elements make stories highly memorable and engaging.
Humans use various tactics and techniques to make stories more engaging, emotionally arousing, and memorable.
“humans use all sorts of tactics and techniques to make stories more engaging, more emotionally arousing, and therefore more memorable” 20:25
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Michelle Sugiyama examine how oral and hunter-gatherer cultures use stories featuring distant time and talking animals. They discuss whether counterfactual elements in myths function as analogical reasoning and provide cognitive flexibility for teaching ecological lessons.
In hunter-gatherer culture, and not just hunter-gatherer cultures, but oral cultures, but I'll just focus on hunter-gatherer cultures. There's this widespread belief in what the anthropologist Richard Nelson calls distant time.
“In hunter-gatherer culture, and not just hunter-gatherer cultures, but oral cultures” 26:08
And I think that's because um it offers flexibility. So if your group's um you know combined uh personal experience doesn't have an exemplar that addresses a particular teaching need
“it offers flexibility. So if your group's” 28:29
0629:36 – 36:10Counterfactual Reasoning and Mental Modeling through Stories
The speakers discuss how counterfactual reasoning and fictional narratives serve as thought experiments and mental models for understanding causality and ecological challenges. They compare fictional thought experiments to scientific hypothesis testing and introduce questions about why story producers share these narratives.
stories, fictional stories have been characterized as thought experiments, right? They they a lot of fictional stories address the question, what might happen if?
“stories, fictional stories have been characterized as thought experiments” 31:19
counterfactual reasoning is at the core of uh causality or judgments of causality in general, that we literally cannot understand what causes what without counterfactual reasoning.
“counterfactual reasoning is at the core of” 33:25
0736:10 – 41:36Storytelling as Cooperation and Social Role Specialization
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Michelle Sugiyama discuss storytelling as an evolutionary form of cooperation and information exchange. They examine how sharing knowledge helps establish cooperative relationships and reputation. The speakers also explore specialization in hunter-gatherer societies, where individuals contribute through specific roles like storytelling, healing, or hunting, and how elders function as communal knowledge keepers.
Michelle Sugiyama characterizes storytelling as a form of cooperation and information exchange that benefits the storyteller by building cooperative relationships and sharing knowledge.
“I think I characterize storytelling as a form of cooperation. It's an information exchange.” 36:22
Michelle Sugiyama explains that elders act as knowledge keepers responsible for maintaining and transmitting the communal knowledge base.
“they're basically knowledge keepers they're the people they're the librarians and the teachers” 41:02
0841:36 – 48:10Public Speaking, Attention Costs, and Academic Recognition
The speakers discuss the evolved psychology surrounding public speaking, shyness, and the high stakes of capturing joint attention in human groups. David Pinsof compares attention to a limited communal resource, likening excessive talking without offsetting benefits to greed. Finally, Michelle Sugiyama reflects on whether the cognitive science of storytelling receives adequate attention and respect within evolutionary psychology.
David Pinsof suggests that public speaking involves managing attention as a limited communal resource, creating reluctance to speak without providing offsetting benefits.
“If I'm taking too much uh of the communal resource of attention without providing any offsetting benefits” 44:57
Michelle Sugiyama notes that despite the significance of storytelling, there is generally not a large amount of research dedicated to it within evolutionary psychology.
“generally, no, there's actually not a lot in Ev Psych.” 48:01
0948:10 – 53:32Narrative Structure and the Evolutionary Psychology of Humor
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Michelle Sugiyama discuss the structure of narratives in cognitive science and literary studies, the role of humor in traditional storytelling, and how trickster stories use humor and ridicule to reinforce social norms and improve memorability.
literary scholars and cognitive psychologists agree on the basic structure of narrative
“literary scholars and cognitive psychologists agree on the basic structure of narrative” 48:27
trickster stories typically use humor and end up being humiliated or punished
“trickster stories typically use humor. Um, the trickster, you know, his plans back” 51:17
1053:32 – 1:00:16The Role of Song in Information Transmission and Cultural Adaptation
The speakers examine the function of songs in traditional stories, rituals, and child-rearing as mnemonic devices for ecological and zoological knowledge, and debate whether storytelling and song are distinct evolutionary adaptations or cultural inventions built upon existing cognitive capacities.
songs serve as catchphrases or mnemonics to help listeners remember distinctive features of animals
“the song serves kind of as a catchphrase. Um, and the analogy I like to use is the Simpsons.” 54:13
storytelling and song are cultural inventions built on top of underlying cognitive adaptations rather than standalone adaptations
“I think they're inventions that are built on adaptations. There are certain cognitive” 58:45
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Michelle Sugiyama discuss cultural evolution driven by instrumental reasoning and the mechanisms small-scale hunter-gatherer societies use to maintain story fidelity and enforce social norms. They examine how audiences correct narrators, how unauthorized storytelling carries social consequences, and how traditional communities place checks on misinformation and antisocial behavior.
one of the rules is that when these you know culturally important stories are being told, the audience is allowed and typically expected to correct the narrator
“one of the rules is that when these you know culturally important stories are being told, the audience is allowed and typically expected to” 1:05:22
The hosts and Michelle Sugiyama explore how stories can be utilized for political, coalitional, and manipulative goals, comparing modern propaganda with traditional oral war histories. They discuss whether ancestral storytelling mirrors modern polarizing rumors and how small-scale societies employ war narratives primarily for education and tactical preparation rather than immediate political incitement.
storytelling can also be a really useful way of achieving that goal. I can mobilize opposition to the hated outgroup
“storytelling can also be a really useful way of achieving that goal. I can mobilize opposition to the” 1:08:29
these stories are told as part of people's training because they also include information about tactics
“these stories are told as part of people's training because they also include information about tactics” 1:10:50
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Michelle Sugiyama discuss how historical narratives and stories can recount atrocities to instill fear, motivate groups, and perpetuate animosity against outgroups. They examine how propaganda shapes perceptions of enemy formidability and moral character to facilitate collective action, comparing these dynamics to interpersonal biases.
Sugiyama and the hosts discuss how recounting atrocities in stories instills fear and maintains animosity toward outgroups rather than promoting peace.
“And so they instill fear and um, you know, motivate people to be prepared.” 1:12:32
Pinsof notes that while assessing enemy formidability accurately is useful, propaganda often distorts moral character to mobilize collective action.
“it's not necessarily in your interest to have an accurate view of, say, the moral character of of your enemy” 1:16:16
As the episode concludes, Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof invite guest Michelle Sugiyama to share an overview of her research background, current work on mimicry in hunter-gatherer games, and her transition from literary studies to evolutionary psychology and archival research on oral storytelling.
Sugiyama explains her current exploration of mimicry across storytelling, song, dance, and hunter-gatherer games like tag.
“One topic I'm um exploring right now is mimicry, which is really pervasive in storytelling” 1:18:04
Sugiyama describes how recognizing that literature is a written invention led her to focus on oral storytelling and archival research on hunter-gatherer societies.
“So no, I don't do field work. I do archival research.” 1:21:26