Through the conversation.
22 sections010:00 – 7:09Introducing Bret Beheim and Cultural Diffusion Research
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce guest Bret Beheim from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig. They discuss the concept of network-based diffusion analysis, examining how measurable cultural traits, behaviors, and technologies spread through human and animal populations over time.
network-based diffusion analysis... has a very nice literature in animal behavior, looking at cultural diffusion processes inside many animal societies
“network-based diffusion analysis. Um and it has a uh uh I think a very uh nice literature in” 3:29
one of the starting places for a lot of this work is to imagine that you can discretize this
“one of the starting places for a lot of this work is to imagine that you can uh discretize this” 4:44
027:09 – 12:06Rapid Technological Innovation and Cultural Spread
The speakers discuss how cultural traits and technologies both rise and fall, contrasting multi-generational cultural shifts with rapid modern technological adoptions like smartphones and LLMs. Bret Beheim shares a historical artifact of early smartphone technology to illustrate how quickly revolutionary user interfaces became ubiquitous.
you have a lot of very slow cultural change processes that you know you can look at over the course of many generations, but you also have very rapid diffusion type processes
“you have a lot of very slow cultural change processes that you know you can look at over the course of many generations, but you also have very rapid diffusion type processes.” 11:29
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Bret Beheim discuss how mathematical models can be applied across vastly different scientific domains, comparing the diffusion of heat, genes, and cultural practices to demonstrate the unifying power of quantitative reasoning in evolutionary behavioral sciences.
a lot of the math is very similar, if not exactly the same
“And a lot of the math is very similar, if not exactly the same” 12:47
one of the amazing things for me in whenever I see you give a talk
“And I think one of the amazing things for me in whenever I see you give a talk” 14:15
Bret Beheim explains the historical intersection of Darwinian evolution and Mendelian inheritance, detailing how mathematical population models allow scientists to isolate specific forces like selection, migration, drift, and mutation to study distributions of traits over time.
drift is also a force
“Drift is also a force.” 20:23
an infinitely sized population has no drift, basically
“an infinitely sized population has no drift, basically.” 21:19
0524:07 – 28:22Quantifying Cultural Distance and Evolutionary Perspectives
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Bret Beheim discuss the concept of cultural distance in cultural evolution, examining how researchers attempt to quantify similarities and differences between norms or societies using datasets like the World Values Survey and connecting these measures to biological distance metrics.
our uh uh contribution, the evolutionary sciences, I think, is to try to connect this um a little more formally to other kinds of distance measures in biology.
“our uh uh contribution, the evolutionary sciences, I think, is to try to connect this um a little more formally to other kinds of distance measures in biology.” 26:42
0628:23 – 36:08Cooperation, Altruism, and Trade Across Cultural Divides
The speakers explore how cultural distance predicts behavior in economic games and vignette studies, such as willingness to cooperate or help outgroup members. They contrast altruistic scenarios where cultural distance acts as a barrier with trade scenarios where diverse skill sets and comparative advantages create opportunities for mutually beneficial exchange.
their basic argument is that this measure itself is highly predictive of people's cooperativeness in these kinds of vignette circumstances
“their basic argument is that this measure itself is highly predictive of people's cooperativeness in these kinds of vignette circumstances” 32:08
if we're more culturally distant, I'm less likely to altruistically help you uh without any kind of expectation of of a return benefit.
“if we're more culturally distant, I'm less likely to altruistically help you uh without any kind of expectation of of a return benefit.” 33:17
0736:08 – 40:22Methodological Bridges Between Psychology and Anthropology
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Bret Beheim discuss how experimental psychology and anthropological fieldwork complement each other. While psychologists control variables in lab settings to study the mind, anthropologists and formal theorists provide quantitative frameworks and data on real-world behavior, helping researchers navigate infinite observational possibilities and refine theoretical models.
one of the values of having theory or sort of formal theory is that it focuses things a bit
“one of the values of having theory or sort of formal” 39:37
The speakers examine how humans navigate uncertainty, resource scarcity, and cultural distance in cooperative exchanges. Bret Beheim and David Pinsof discuss whether altruism toward outgroups is constrained by the difficulty of estimating long-term payoffs, and how individuals acquire preferences and learn the rules of social and economic interactions through cultural exposure.
perhaps some part of the mind is estimating the likelihood that this act of helping will result in a long-term mutually beneficial relationship
“some part of the mind is estimating the likelihood that this” 42:45
one of the main focuses is how do individuals or how do organisms figure out things that they would need to know
“one of the main focuses is how do individuals” 44:14
0948:08 – 53:39Modeling Cultural Similarity and Cooperation Dynamics
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Bret Beheim discuss how evolved psychologies interact with cultural traits like shared sports teams to influence cooperation. They examine the methodological challenges of measuring cultural distance across various domains, comparing unidimensional metrics to biological analogies such as whale classification.
And even though they have the same cultural distance, they both like the same sports team.
“And even though they have the same cultural distance, they both like the same sports team.” 48:48
the calculation that you get depends heavily on the questions that you're using
“the calculation that you get depends heavily on the questions that you're using for for measuring cultural similarity” 50:26
Bret Beheim and the hosts explore the concept of FST as applied to both genetics and culture, noting that humans show remarkably low genetic differentiation alongside high cultural variability, leading to the description that genes are smooth while culture is crunchy.
one of the really remarkable things about humans is that we have extraordinarily low genetic FST measures.
“one of the really remarkable things about humans is that we have extraordinarily low genetic FST measures.” 55:30
one way I've heard this described is that like uh uh genes are smooth and culture is crunchy.
“one way I've heard this described is that like uh uh genes are smooth and culture is crunchy.” 58:20
Bret Beheim discusses his undergraduate experiences at UC Santa Barbara, where he studied under figures like Don Simons and John Tooby, before pursuing graduate studies at UC Davis focusing on cultural evolution and modeling.
The thing that I was primarily interested in, I was actually a history major at the time and doing a double double major with anthro.
“The thing that I was primarily interested in, I was actually a history major at the time” 1:02:10
It was very humble. And it was like, look, we just want to understand these processes.
“It was very humble. And it was like, look, we just want to understand these processes.” 1:03:23
The speakers examine the historical relationship and perceived division between evolutionary psychology and cultural evolution, noting how both fields have increasingly overlapped while discussing the impact of WEIRD samples in psychological research.
I mean, I think that the cultural distance is quite small uh between these subfields, but you know, you wouldn't necessarily know it if you see people arguing with each other.
“I mean, I think that the cultural distance is quite small uh between these subfields” 1:07:04
I think one of the things that has led to is a kind of performative diversity where, oh, let's just throw in some some other samples in some other places
“I think one of the things that has led to is a kind of performative diversity where” 1:11:44
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Bret Beheim examine the limitations of sample diversity critiques and introduce the evolutionary psychology concept known as the jukebox model. Originally proposed by Barkow, Cosmides, and Tooby, the metaphor illustrates how geographic variation in behavior can emerge from environmental triggers rather than cultural transmission, representing what is known as evoked culture.
they were trying to imagine a particular mechanism that might produce geographic variation in behavior without necessarily involving what we might call cultural transmission.
“produce geographic variation in behavior without necessarily involving what we might call cultural transmission.” 1:13:16
you don't necessarily need, you know, you can't just assume, oh, there's cultural variation, therefore it's being transmitted.
“you can't just assume, oh, there's cultural variation, therefore it's being transmitted.” 1:16:03
The speakers explore coordination equilibria and economic analogies like Hayekian market prices to understand social influence without direct cultural transmission. They contrast purely ecological or rational responses with emergent social outcomes, considering whether phenomena like traffic rules, market prices, or strict rule-following behaviors should be classified as culture.
prices are an emergent product of everyone acting self-interestedly in a marketplace.
“prices are an emergent product of everyone acting self-interestedly in a marketplace.” 1:21:08
the agent itself isn't internalizing anything, it's not taking in what we might call like cultural information
“the agent itself isn't internalizing anything, it's not taking in what we might call like cultural information” 1:23:25
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Bret Beheim discuss whether pedestrian and driving behaviors, such as waiting at red lights, are driven by internalized social norms or rational cost-benefit calculations. They compare cross-cultural differences in traffic rules, policing environments, and coordination failures across cities like Berlin, Los Angeles, and Connecticut.
David Pinsof argues that variation in running red lights is driven by environmental policing rather than internalized norms.
“variation in whether s people blow red lights to not so much be a product of whether they've quote unquote internalized this quote unquote norm, but just like how many police are there in the environment?” 1:25:38
David Pinsof suggests that if actions carry no costs and no social penalties, people will abandon norms.
“If there are no costs at all, then I would expect uh people to do to to not follow the norm.” 1:26:43
David Pinsof proposes a controversial view that most culture is not vertically transmitted values, but rather an emergent Hayekian outcome of individuals pursuing self-interest and local goals. Bret Beheim responds by discussing cultural evolution models, arguing that norm psychology acts as a cognitive shortcut to reduce the heavy costs of constant attention and calculation.
David Pinsof suggests that most culture emerges from individuals pursuing self-interest and local goals rather than vertical norm transmission.
“It's more like this emergent product of everyone just following their self-interest, doing what is rational for them to do in their particular circumstances.” 1:33:02
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Bret Beheim discuss how cultural learning, economic games, and norm adherence interact with cost-benefit calculations. The speakers explore whether following social norms is driven purely by transmitted cultural rules or by rational individual cost-benefit analyses, touching upon evolved norm psychology and social coordination equilibria.
the norm psychology is itself a complex adaptation that's sort of calculating, is what I'm doing based on this sequential social transmission process?
“the norm psychology is itself a complex adaptation” 1:38:14
I do think you know there is an evolved norm psychology, but it's suffused with a cost-benefit analysis too
“there is an evolved norm psychology, but it's suffused with a cost-benefit analysis” 1:39:19
The speakers analyze a famous economic study from an Israeli daycare where introducing a financial fine for late pickups paradoxically increased tardiness. They discuss how monetary penalties shift social interactions into commercial exchanges and examine how impression management, reputational costs, and internal audience simulation shape human prosocial behavior and norm compliance.
paradoxically, perhaps, it increased the rate of tardiness because now there was a price associated with the lateness.
“paradoxically, perhaps, it increased the rate of tardiness because now there was a price” 1:41:49
191:48:23 – 1:51:34Cognitive Heuristics and Cultural Transmission in Evolutionary Dynamics
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Bret Beheim discuss how cost-benefit analyses, social costs, and cultural transmission intersect. Beheim explains how cognitive heuristics might evolve to help individuals learn local behavioral coordination and social sanctions, and the hosts discuss wrapping up the interview.
It's just that there's no pure cultural transmission without a cost benefit analysis.
“no pure cultural transmission without a cost benefit analysis” 1:48:43
Bret Beheim describes his work at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, detailing their focus on human behavior, ecology, culture, and longitudinal field data like the Chimani Project. The speakers then explore the cultural evolution of games such as Go, artificial intelligence breakthroughs, and the psychology of status games.
Our group specifically is focusing on topics related to behavioral ecology, mostly for humans.
“our group specifically is focusing on topics related to behavioral ecology” 1:52:36
Bret Beheim discusses with the hosts how negative frequency dependence operates in strategic games like chess, poker, and Go, where players avoid popular moves to remain unpredictable. They also explore how such strategic interactions shape broader evolutionary dynamics and touch upon high-stakes match controversies.
moves that are popular potentially would be things that you would want to avoid because your opponent is prepared for it
“moves that are popular potentially would be things that you would want to avoid because your opponent is prepared for it” 2:00:41
The hosts and Bret Beheim conclude the episode, thanking him for his appearance, promoting his research projects, and exchanging farewells. Afterward, the hosts engage in a lighthearted banter about leaving podcast reviews and supporting shows on Patreon.
Well, this flew by, so we'll have to have you on again.
“Well, this flew by, so we'll have to have you on again.” 2:02:49
That's one of my favorite activities to do late at night, is I I write kind reviews about my favorite podcasts.
“That's one of my favorite activities to do late at night, is I I write kind reviews about my favorite podcasts.” 2:03:49