The conversation, in brief.
In this episode of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof are joined by guest Mike McCullough, professor of psychology at UC San Diego, to explore the evolutionary and psychological underpinnings of revenge, forgiveness, and gratitude. The discussion examines how human emotional systems function to track costs and benefits in interpersonal relationships. The speakers discuss why revenge and forgiveness are not direct opposites, how third parties and moral rules mediate conflict, the rationale behind punishment, and the temporal decay of pain and grievances over time. They also address the complexities of state intervention, the limits of simplistic social science solutions, and how humans process evidence when evaluating apologies.
Through the conversation.
20 sectionsHosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce guest Mike McCullough, professor of psychology at UC San Diego, to discuss the wide-ranging topics of revenge, forgiveness, and gratitude. The conversation explores the cost-benefit logic of anger and retaliation, the nuances of studying opposite concepts, and why time heals all wounds.
Yeah, revenge, forgiveness, gratitude.
“Yeah, revenge, forgiveness, gratitude.” 0:43
I also got to ask about a mystery I've always had, which is why does time heal all wounds?
“I also got to ask about a mystery I've always had, which is why does time heal all wounds?” 1:40
022:09 – 12:00Studying Opposing Concepts: Revenge and Forgiveness
Mike McCullough discusses whether revenge and forgiveness are true opposites and how studying them together aids understanding. The speakers explore behavioral responses to interpersonal harm, the challenges of titrating retaliation due to actor-observer effects, and how punishments function both as learning stimuli and communicative signals of displeasure.
Mike McCullough explains that he does not view revenge and forgiveness as direct opposites, but rather as different ways people might navigate the aftermath of being harmed.
“I I don't think they're opposites.” 4:32
McCullough notes that it is difficult to accurately titrate retaliation because recipients often perceive it as opening a new wound rather than evening the score.
“I think it's hard to get the titration right there a lot of times.” 9:55
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Mike McCullough discuss the escalation risks of bilateral retaliation and how impartial third parties can intervene to mediate disputes, articulate broader social costs, and establish common knowledge or moral rules to halt feuds.
if impartial third parties get involved in the conflict, uh does the getting even stand a better chance
“If impartial third parties get involved in the conflict, uh does the getting even” 14:36
third parties often do get involved in mediating peace between not only conflicting individuals
“third parties often do get involved in mediating peace between not only conflicting individuals” 18:46
0419:23 – 24:03Punishment, Cost-Benefit Landscapes, and Social Maps
The speakers examine punishment as a mechanism for navigating cost-benefit landscapes and recalibrating behavior. They discuss how smart punishment communicates the structure of the world and alternative options, helping disputants align their social maps to avoid future conflict.
the reason why I might punish you or seek revenge is to recalibrate you because I think you're going to be the source of additional costs
“the reason why I might punish you or seek revenge is to recalibrate you because I think you're going to be the source of additional costs” 19:40
smart punishment is where you say, oh, look, if you keep doing this thing, there's a cost, but then the alternative is much better
“smart punishment is where you say, oh, look, if you keep doing this thing, there's a cost, but then the alternative is much better” 21:50
0524:04 – 28:12Parent-Offspring Conflict and Third-Party Punishment
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Mike McCullough discuss parent-offspring conflict, evolutionary cost-benefit landscapes, and how punishment and moral rules function as communications about social expectations and the anticipated reactions of impartial third parties.
you may want your kid to behave differently than the kid would want to behave
“you may want your kid to behave differently than the kid would want to behave.” 24:27
a moral rule as as an expectation about what impartial third parties are likely to do in response to this action
“a moral rule as as an expectation about what impartial third parties are likely to do in response to this action.” 27:01
The speakers explore whether young children understand impartial third parties during conflicts, drawing on developmental psychology, leadership dynamics on playgrounds, and how children evaluate the authority and status of mediators.
impartial third parties are sort of tolerated as resolvers of first-person conflict
“impartial third parties are sort of tolerated as resolvers of first-person conflict.” 29:49
I view the teacher as being more impartial to the to the conflict
“I view the teacher as being more impartial to the to the conflict than than” 36:02
0736:06 – 37:40Impartiality, Authority, and the Darwinian View of Fairness
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof discuss with guest Mike McCullough how children and adults perceive fairness and impartiality, linking institutional authority to the presence of real or symbolic power. They explore how perceived fairness often depends on the ability to impose costs or enforce social outcomes.
this Darwinian view of that you'll consider an outcome fair to the extent that there's an army behind it
“this Darwinian view of that you'll consider an outcome fair to the extent that there's an army behind it.” 37:25
0837:40 – 48:09Cost-Benefit Logic, Revenge, and Evolutionary Psychology
Guest Mike McCullough discusses his research trajectory from counseling psychology to evolutionary social psychology, emphasizing that emotions like revenge, gratitude, and envy function as mechanisms for tracking costs and benefits. The speakers compare treating the emotional symptom without understanding its evolutionary cause to removing a cough in pneumonia.
a lot of what our kind of emotional hardware and sort of social cognition really is about is tracking those costs and benefits
“a lot of what our kind of emotional hardware and sort of social cognition really is about is tracking those costs and benefits” 39:47
revenge was really viewed as this thing just to kind of be knocked out
“revenge was really viewed as this thing just to kind of be knocked out.” 41:17
0948:09 – 55:33Understanding the Rationality of Revenge and Forgiveness
Host David Pinsof and guest Mike McCullough discuss how revenge and forgiveness stem from evolved psychological systems. Rather than viewing negative emotions or maladaptive forgiveness as purely irrational, the speakers explore how individuals weigh costs and benefits within relationships, sometimes leading to difficult decisions in harmful or abusive circumstances.
that often it's coming from real harms and you know, people, evolved creatures that they are, are just trying to do the b the best they can for themselves and their families.
“that often it's coming from real harms and you know, people, evolved creatures that they are, are just trying to do the b the best they can for themselves and their families.” 49:28
And so I I think too often psychologists slip into this view that like bad emotions are always bad, uh, and they have they have no rationality to them
“too often psychologists slip into this view that like bad emotions are always bad, uh, and they have they have no rationality to them” 50:25
David Pinsof and Mike McCullough examine why individuals might remain in abusive relationships or exhibit seemingly irrational faithfulness. They discuss how local incentives, dependency, and short-term survival constraints shape a person's willingness to forgive, contrasting individual local calculations with the broader interests and interventions of the state.
the clinical intervention that's effective and efficacious would be those situations where the person has really low self-esteem, which is just that they believe their market value in the social world is much lower than it is objectively.
“the clinical intervention that's effective and efficacious would be those situations where the person has really low self-esteem, which is just that they believe their market value in the social world is much lower than it is objectively.” 56:18
individual people have incentives that will lead them to um deny harms that we we as the state really care about
“individual people have incentives that will lead them to um deny harms that we we as the state really care about” 58:30
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Mike McCullough discuss the profound complexities and difficult judgment calls involved when state actors and police intervene in severe domestic disputes. The speakers reflect on an evolutionary perspective of the human condition, noting that systemic social problems are deeply intricate and resistant to simple solutions or quick fixes.
it is very, very difficult to know what the right call would be
“it is very, very difficult to know what the right call would be.” 1:02:51
a lot of the times the things that we point to as as as the major problems in our world, they're just really hard
“a lot of the times the things that we point to as as as the major problems in our world, they're just really hard.” 1:04:59
The speakers share personal reflections on committee work, institutional policies, and the limitations of predicting second-order effects in large human populations. They adopt a tragic view of human nature, critiquing the overconfident solutions often proposed by social scientists and arguing for greater humility in governance and intervention.
as I've gotten older, I think maybe I'm a little bit older than you guys, um, I've gotten more and more um just like humble
“as I've gotten older, I think maybe I'm a little bit older than you guys, um, I've gotten more and more um just like humble” 1:08:35
a lot of social science has that the the lure of the the TED talk, um is is it's the currency of there's a cheap way to get help
“a lot of social science has that the the lure of the the TED talk, um is is it's the currency of there's a cheap way to get help” 1:10:15
Mike McCullough and the hosts discuss the limitations of intrapsychic therapies for forgiveness, arguing that real forgiveness relies heavily on changed behavior and acknowledgment of responsibility from the harmdoer. They examine how people evaluate the honesty of apologies by integrating multiple sources of evidence, including past behavior, third-party testimony, nonverbal cues, and the perceived risk of future transgressions.
the real levers of forgiveness that we don't talk about enough when we think about applied, like making the world a better place kind of thing is, you know, it's changed behavior on the bet on the part of the harmdoer
“the real levers of forgiveness that we don't talk about enough” 1:13:20
an acknowledgement of responsibility and kind of um an acknowledgement that that's not the person you want to be, and concrete evidence that you you are willing, you know, that will back up this change of heart. Like those are the things that really promote forgiveness the best.
“an acknowledgement of responsibility and kind of” 1:15:43
The speakers evaluate traditional evolutionary theories of costly signaling, arguing that human communication assessment is far more sophisticated. Rather than relying on a single cost metric, recipients act as evidence collectors making inferences based on base rates, regression to the mean, past behavior, and the potential costs of being wrong.
it's more of an inference to the best explanation phenomenon where the recipient of the apology is weighing lots of different sources of evidence for many different aspects of the situation
“an inference to the best explanation phenomenon” 1:21:29
it's probably a little bit more useful to think of humans as you know testers of evidence and you know, collectors of evidence that are trying to in real time um just make inferences about how the world looks.
“testers of evidence and you know, collectors of evidence” 1:23:07
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Mike McCullough discuss how humans integrate multimodal sensory data in real-time decision making. They explore the evolved logic of information search, introducing the concept of strategic ignorance where individuals may deliberately choose to avoid acquiring certain information because search is costly and may not alter outcomes.
acquiring the information is itself a decision that must also be evaluated with with the logic of costs and benefits.
“acquiring the information is itself a decision that must also be evaluated with with the logic of costs and benefits.” 1:28:16
The speakers discuss the common saying that time heals all wounds and examine whether forgiveness follows psychophysical laws similar to memory forgetting curves. Mike McCullough shares findings from longitudinal studies demonstrating that forgiveness tends to decay over time like memory interference, and that individuals vary in their rates of decay based on traits like agreeableness and situational factors.
forgiveness does obey this psychophysical law of um kind of like you're taking one percent a day of the pain away.
“forgiveness does obey this psychophysical law of um kind of like you're taking one percent a day of the pain away.” 1:34:12
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Mike McCullough discuss how group memories and victimhood narratives can mobilize political groups and foster cultural traditions. They explore the functional role of keeping historical grievances active, comparing societal patterns of maintaining collective animosities with national reflections on historical wrongdoings and collective guilt.
victimhood narratives are very useful at mobilizing a group politically
“victimhood narratives are very uh useful at mobilizing a group politically, right?” 1:38:41
The hosts wrap up the conversation by asking Mike McCullough about closing reflections and musical pursuits. McCullough shares details about playing bass in his son's jazz fusion band, Star Sign, along with his collection of vintage and modern bass guitars, concluding the episode with lighthearted banter.
This is just pure pleasure for me
“This is just pure pleasure for me.” 1:48:00
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof engage in lighthearted banter during the podcast outro. They discuss whether to continue traditional calls to support the show on Patreon or shift toward informal reflections, casual debriefs, and conversational tangents.
What do people think? Let us know in the comments.
“What do people think? Let us know in the comments.” 1:48:47
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof brainstorm a novel textbook format inspired by choose-your-own-adventure books, comparing it to the trial-and-error progression of scientific thinking. They conclude the episode by jokingly connecting life choices to listener feedback and media consumption.
It like it's a it um is a microcosm of how scientific thinking works and how it progresses.
“It like it's a it um is a microcosm of how scientific thinking works” 1:50:16