The conversation, in brief.
In this episode of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof are joined by guest Kris Smith to discuss anthropological fieldwork, cooperation, and social norms across diverse East African communities, including Hadza hunter-gatherers and Tanzanian fishing groups. Smith shares how empirical observations challenged initial theoretical assumptions regarding partner choice, reputation costs, and trait stability. The conversation explores ecological variations, relational mobility, long-distance relationship orientations for risk-buffering, and methodological challenges in behavioral science. Additionally, the speakers touch upon emerging environmental and health threats, such as climate change impacts and vector-borne diseases, before concluding with casual banter on film scores.
Through the conversation.
16 sections010:00 – 6:48Fieldwork in East Africa and Anthropological Research
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce guest Kris Smith, discussing his anthropological fieldwork across East Africa, including studies with Hadza hunter-gatherers, coastal Tanzanian fishing communities, and Kenyan pastoralists. They discuss how researchers select and maintain field sites through collaboration and happenstance rather than purely design.
the reality for many of us, including me, is that it's often sort of convenience and happenstance.
“the reality for many of us, including me, is that it's often sort of convenience and happenstance.” 4:27
the challenge, I don't think, is starting up the field site. I mean, you know, connections help. It's often maintaining the field site.
“the challenge, I don't think, is starting up the field site. I mean, you know, connections help. It's often maintaining the field site.” 6:09
026:48 – 12:03Challenging Theories of Cooperation and Partner Choice
Kris Smith explains how conducting fieldwork with the Hadza challenged his theoretical assumptions about cooperation and partner choice. Rather than selecting campmates based on generosity or cooperative game behavior, the Hadza prioritize practical foraging skills like hunting ability, largely because strong communal sharing norms are already enforced by default.
I very much went in expecting partner choice to be like the really important mechanism here.
“I very much went in expecting partner choice to be like the really important mechanism here.” 9:23
they didn't really care about who jet how generous the people they were living with were. Instead, they cared about, you know, who were good hunters, who were good gatherers
“they didn't really care about who jet how generous the people they were living with were. Instead, they cared about, you know, who were good hunters, who were good gatherers” 10:19
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Kris Smith discuss how ecological factors, resource concealability, and trait variance influence partner choice among the Hadza. They examine how living environments—such as villages versus the bush—alter sharing norms, wealth storage, and the relative emphasis placed on generosity versus productivity when selecting cooperative partners.
what we find actually is that this effects uh reversed when I came back in 2019
“this effects uh reversed when I came back in 2019” 12:31
the variance in sharing, willingness to share, is increasing as they have more experience moving between these two different social worlds
“variance in sharing, willingness to share, is increasing as they have more experience moving between these two different social worlds” 13:33
The speakers examine public goods game experiments conducted in different Hadza camps, discussing free-rider problems and the observation that camp-level cooperation varies significantly. They consider how social transmission and local expectations shape cooperative behavior in the absence of formal punishment.
the only reliable predictor was how much everyone else is giving
“the only reliable predictor was how much everyone else is giving” 21:56
0524:04 – 28:12Evaluating Reputation and Sharing Norms Among the Hadza
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Kris Smith discuss how sharing norms and reputation operate in Hadza communities. They examine an anecdote about a man who murdered his wife yet remained integrated and supported by the group, illustrating that reputational costs may not always translate into severe real-world penalties due to ecological constraints and interdependence.
And so it's not clear if those scoldings and the reputation actually, you know, translate into any real costs.
“And so it's not clear if those scoldings and the reputation actually, you know, translate” 24:23
The thing I took away from this is that we want to be we don't want to assume reputation necessarily has a cost without actually
“the thing I took away from this is that we want to be we don't want to assume reputation necessarily has a cost without actually” 27:11
0628:13 – 36:05Ecological Variation, Interdependence, and Social Costs
The speakers examine human behavioral variation, cautioning against essentializing any single hunter-gatherer group as the definitive proxy for ancestral human nature. They explore how local ecologies, high interdependence, and the scarcity of outside alternatives shape community responses, favoring mediation and relationship preservation over costly ostracism or punishment.
Any sample of any human behavior is the result of the evolved phenotype interacting with the local circumstances.
“any sample of any human behavior is the result of the evolved phenotype interacting with the” 30:13
I suspect imposing social costs are costly, and so the mediation is probably easier and the the more desired outcome usually.
“I suspect imposing social costs are costly, and so the mediation is probably easier and the the more desired outcome usually.” 33:23
0736:05 – 40:50Relational Mobility and Replaceability in Human Cooperation
Host David Pinsof and guest Kris Smith discuss relational mobility, network size, and how replaceability shapes cooperation across different cultures, contrasting the high replaceability of the Western world with the irreplaceable social networks of the Hadza.
It seems like everyone is very replaceable in in the Western world. Whereas in the in the in the Hadza, you know, basically everyone is irreplaceable.
“everyone is very replaceable in in the Western world. Whereas in the in the in the Hadza, you know, basically everyone is irreplaceable.” 37:50
The people are are more replaceable here. Um and so that's gonna impact how we cooperate with one another.
“The people are are more replaceable here. Um and so that's gonna impact how we cooperate with one another.” 38:06
0840:51 – 48:07Attributional Biases and Stability of Character Across Cultures
David Pinsof and Kris Smith explore whether cooperation and generosity reflect stable character traits or situational factors, noting that Hadza participants attribute negative behaviors to situations rather than enduring personal traits, unlike typical findings in Western contexts.
what you're what you seem to be finding among the Hadza is that that's not really the case, that there aren't these enduring differences in in cooperativeness.
“what you're what you seem to be finding among the Hadza is that that's not really the case, that there aren't these enduring differences in in cooperativeness.” 41:21
For the negative behaviors, uh, it flips where people were more willing to attribute it to the situation.
“For the negative behaviors, uh, it flips where people were more willing to attribute it to the situation.” 43:39
0948:07 – 54:48Methodological Challenges in Measuring Welfare Trade-Off Ratios
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Kris Smith discuss the challenges of applying welfare trade-off ratio and social discounting tasks across different cultures and ecologies, such as among the Hadza and in Bangladesh, noting how local contexts, concrete realities, and perceptions of need can override standard experimental predictions.
people have the highest welfare trade-off ratios for people that they feel closest to
“people have the highest welfare trade-off ratios for” 50:21
The speakers examine how formal education, Western abstraction, and hypothetical task structures influence participant responses. They highlight the value of an evolutionary framework in anthropology for keeping researchers grounded about what psychological measures actually capture in the field.
it is so easy to know who has had some schooling in Hadza Land
“it is so easy to know who has had some schooling in Hadza Land” 55:09
a lot of areas in psychology where the measure becomes the data
“areas in psychology where the measure becomes the data” 57:25
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Kris Smith discuss the limitations of rigid theoretical frameworks and quantitative measures in social science. They examine the value of qualitative ethnography, real-life anecdotes, and open-ended observations to uncover overlooked phenomena, noting how qualitative insights often precede and enrich formal data collection.
Kris Smith notes that purely theoretical models without diverse evidence can cause a streetlight effect that blinds researchers to missing pieces.
“if theory is the stuff that has data and lots of evidence, then you're never going to actually look at the missing pieces.” 1:00:21
David Pinsof highlights that quantitative measures often fail to capture the full range of interesting human experiences.
“we're looking at the stuff that we can put a number on. Um, but not everything of interest uh is that easily measurable.” 1:01:27
Kris Smith describes his research on fisheries in Tanzania, examining whether cross-community friendships and long-distance relationships increase participation in resource management and collective action. The speakers explore how social ties create shared stakes in natural resources and how long-distance orientations predict cooperative behaviors.
Kris Smith explains that having friends in villages sharing the same fisheries promotes participation in fishery management by creating shared stakes.
“whether or not having more friendships in villages that access the same fisheries, if you're more likely to participate in fishery management.” 1:03:31
Kris Smith and David Pinsof discuss findings that long-distance friendships between communities specifically encourage participation in cooperative conservation efforts.
“we find that long distance friends encourage participation in these fisheries management.” 1:11:17
Guest Kris Smith and hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof discuss long-distance relationship orientation (LDO), exploring how an interest in distant social ties can function as a partner choice mechanism and risk-buffering strategy against community-wide resource shocks, comparing findings across different cultural settings.
Smith and his co-researcher discussed whether long-distance relationship orientation functions as a consistent trait or a variable responsive to travel costs and risk-buffering needs.
“We Ann and I went back and forth on whether we call this a personality trait” 1:15:47
Smith suggests that in settings without robust financial institutions, individuals rely more heavily on social relationships to cope with community shocks.
“in Tanzania, right, they are relying on their friends a lot for help” 1:17:07
Kris Smith shares new research directions concerning climate-sensitive vector-borne diseases like Rift Valley Fever, examining how interconnected environmental threats, droughts, and conflicts impact local communities' ability to adapt and conceptualize changing ecological landscapes.
Smith explains that changing precipitation patterns are causing more extreme flooding and altering the epidemiology and outbreaks of Rift Valley Fever.
“What we're finding in the area is you're getting more extreme flooding” 1:19:39
Smith notes that multiple overlapping threats, such as drought and intergroup conflict, constrain the capacity of communities to adapt.
“What's happening is that they have so many different threats posed by climate change” 1:20:08
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Kris Smith wrap up their conversation by discussing disease vector challenges in the field, local conceptualizations of climate and health issues, and Kris's personal experiences with mosquitoes during research trips.
Kris Smith describes his firsthand experience dealing with ineffective mosquito nets in the field.
“The mosquito net was clearly not treated, bunch of holes.” 1:28:35
Kris mentions local community perspectives on environmental changes and blaming local tree cutting for dust storms.
“cutting trees meant there's massive dust storms because there's nothing catching the dust.” 1:27:13
David Pinsof and Dave Pietraszewski continue into the episode outro with casual banter about being sick, teasing an upcoming guest appearance by Josh Snodgrass, and discussing their nostalgic preferences for traditional movie trailers and memorable film score melodies like John Williams' work.
David Pinsof expresses his preference for film scores featuring traditional melodies over modern ambient drones.
“film scores that have a damn melody. Everything is just drones and completely devoid of melody” 1:32:57
The hosts tease an upcoming guest interview with Josh Snodgrass focusing on the emotion of sickness.
“this is a um a teaser for Josh Schnodgrass about the the emotion of of being sick” 1:31:12