Through the conversation.
20 sections010:00 – 5:13Introduction to Ed Hagen and Research Topics
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce the podcast episode featuring guest Ed Hagen. They highlight Hagen's extensive knowledge across various scientific and anthropological domains, discussing topics such as mental health, evolutionary psychology, and his academic background.
today we're we're talking to Ed Hagan and uh there was just so much in this episode
“today we're we're talking to Ed Hagan and uh there was just so much in this episode” 0:56
And my favorite part of this episode is is also Ed's origin story.
“And my favorite part of this episode is is also Ed's origin story.” 1:54
025:13 – 12:00Ed Hagen's Academic Origins and Evolutionary Psychology
Ed Hagen shares his academic journey, starting as an undergraduate in physics and math, discovering human evolutionary history through ancient Mesopotamia, and questioning chemical imbalance theories of depression by observing real-life conflicts among friends. This led him to accidentally apply to the center for evolutionary studies at UCSB.
So I started out as an undergrad in physics and math.
“So I started out as an undergrad in physics and math.” 5:38
0312:00 – 22:01Graduate School Encounters and Evolutionary Anthropology Foundations
Ed Hagen recounts his graduate school days at UCSB, his initial interactions with Nap Chagnon and John Tooby, and his early skepticism toward sociocultural anthropology's focus on advocacy over science. The hosts and guest discuss how reading George Williams's classic work on adaptation helped Hagen connect evolutionary theory to cognitive design and the brain.
Tubi is applying Williams to the brain. And it all clicked.
“Tubi is applying Williams to the brain. And it all clicked.” 19:14
human engineering pales in comparison to nature's engineering.
“human engineering pales in comparison to nature's engineering.” 20:09
0422:02 – 24:01Investigating Delusional Disorder and Evolutionary Psychology Perspectives
Ed Hagen discusses how personal observations of a friend experiencing severe paranoia and a traumatic background influenced his master's research on delusional disorder. The speakers explore evolutionary perspectives on human sociality, ostracism, and the challenges faced by individuals experiencing severe psychological distress.
humans we cannot survive without a group. We are obligatorily social.
“humans we cannot survive without a group. We are obligatorily social.” 23:36
0524:01 – 26:51Evolutionary perspectives on delusions and social threats
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Ed Hagen discuss an evolutionary hypothesis of delusions, suggesting they function as an evolved design to signal need and secure support during extreme social threats or potential ostracism, rather than representing a purely rationalized or manipulative strategy.
And so my idea was that um you lie. Uh and you you you tell the biggest, most effective lies you possibly can in order to convince people that they still need you around.
“you tell the biggest, most effective lies you possibly can” 24:06
It's that this is there's an evolved design that contingently is sort of looking for am I in this class of situation?
“there's an evolved design that contingently is sort of looking for” 25:41
0626:51 – 36:02Rethinking depression and mental illness through evolution
Ed Hagen contrasts conventional psychiatric views of mental illness with an evolutionary perspective on depression and anxiety, arguing that unlike true cognitive dysfunctions such as schizophrenia, depression is typically a common, temporary, and adaptive response to severe environmental adversity.
With depression, we know it's adversity. Bad things happen to you and you get depressed.
“With depression, we know it's adversity.” 29:45
When bad things happen, you should feel bad. And the reason you should feel bad is the same reason we feel bad when we get a physical injury and we feel physical pain.
“when bad things happen, you should feel bad.” 34:07
0736:02 – 41:31Depression as a bargaining strike against social partners
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Ed Hagen discuss how depression symptoms, such as loss of motivation and withdrawal, function not merely as emotional pain from adversity, but as a strategic bargaining strike against social partners when conflicts of interest arise and support is withheld.
what you're doing there is you're threatening to take away the value that you represent to others
“what you're doing there is you're threatening to take away the value that you represent to others, take that away” 39:58
there's this signaling process where if people aren't getting the investment they need from social partners in times of need, they can bargain with their own value
“that there's this signaling process where if people aren't getting the investment they need from social partners in times of need, they can bargain with their own value to others” 40:35
0841:32 – 48:08Suicidality as a costly and credible signaling tactic
The hosts and Ed Hagen explore suicidality and self-harm as an extreme, costly signaling tactic on the continuum of depressive bargaining, noting that while risky, such acts can credibly signal genuine need and are observed across cultures in response to severe social conflicts.
What we're proposing is that exactly as David said... We're going with Dave and David, just to clarify.
“What we're proposing is that exactly as David said, um We're going with Dave and David, just to clarify.” 42:09
this is a a costly but credible signal that you genuinely do need more investment, that you're not faking it
“this is a a costly but credible signal that you genuinely do need more investment, that you're not faking it” 44:04
0948:08 – 56:48Therapeutic Interventions and Evolutionary Psychiatry Approaches
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Ed Hagen discuss how antidepressants and traditional psychotherapy function as painkillers rather than addressing root social conflicts and adversity. They examine clinical anecdotes where active therapist involvement and social support improved patient outcomes, contrasting this with a detached clinical model.
And that's what we're doing with kind of depression therapy now with antidepressants, is we're giving you the painkiller, but without fixing the problem.
“we're giving you the painkiller, but without fixing the problem” 48:43
So it's interesting. So it it suggests that this model of the disinterested, dispassionate therapist who doesn't intervene and isn't your friend, but is just a you know a professional, uh I don't know, mm psyche repairer. um, that this picture is actually could be counterproductive in terms of helping solve people's problems.
“this model of the disinterested, dispassionate therapist who doesn't intervene” 52:50
1056:49 – 1:00:11Mental Health Challenges and Evolutionary Perspectives on Drug Use
The hosts transition to discussing widespread drug use among individuals experiencing mental health issues. Ed Hagen and his colleagues explore why traditional and modern populations dealing with conditions like depression and schizophrenia heavily consume substances like tobacco and caffeine, prompting an evolutionary investigation into why plants naturally produce these chemical compounds.
So uh it turns out that folks with mental health issues are heavy drug users.
“folks with mental health issues are heavy drug users” 57:57
And so we started like, what are the evolutionary origins of all these drugs? Let's not so much think about the drug use to begin with, but you know, why do tobacco plants produce nicotine? Why do coffee plants produce caffeine?
“what are the evolutionary origins of all these drugs?” 59:45
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Ed Hagen discuss why plants produce neurotoxins to deter herbivores and how these chemical defenses mimic neurotransmitters. Hagen and David Pinsof explore the evolutionary hypothesis that human consumption of these toxic substances might serve as an adaptive self-medication strategy to target parasites like intestinal worms.
tobacco is producing nicotine, not so we can produce cigarettes, but as um a way to defend itself against herbivores
“tobacco is producing nicotine, not so we can produce cigarettes, but as um a way to defend itself against herbivores.” 1:00:53
could our taste for these neurotoxic substances be a form of self-medication that we are attracted to them
“could our taste for these neurotoxic substances be a form of self-medication that we are attracted to them” 1:06:19
David Pinsof and Ed Hagen review the intoxication-as-medicine model and contrast it with mainstream views comparing drugs to sugar and dopamine signaling. Hagen notes that initial reactions to drugs are aversive and explains how neurotoxins pose severe risks to children during brain development, aligning with data showing virtually no drug use in young children.
the main story, the mainstream folks, is that recreational drugs are like sugar
“the mainstream folks, is that recreational drugs are like sugar.” 1:10:36
Guest Ed Hagen and the hosts discuss how the evolutionary self-medication hypothesis explains patterns of drug use across age and sex. Hagen shares findings from a randomized controlled trial with Aka hunter-gatherers in the Congo Basin showing that treating intestinal worm infections reduced tobacco and cannabis consumption, supporting the idea that drug use can serve as a therapeutic or prophylactic adaptation.
The key result is that in the treatment group, nicotine levels went down compared to the control group, and they went down in proportion to how badly infected they were with worms to begin with.
“nicotine levels went down compared to the control group. And they went down in proportion to how badly infected they were with worms to begin with.” 1:18:34
The more heavily infected individuals reduced their tobacco use more after being treated for worms, mirroring results seen with cannabis use.
“the more heavily infected guys reduced their tobacco use more, and we got the same result for cannabis use.” 1:18:44
The speakers examine whether drug consumption is regulated by precise physiological mechanisms rather than simple reward hijacking. Hagen references experimental evidence on nicotine titration, demonstrating that smokers carefully adjust their puffing behavior and intake to maintain nicotine levels within a narrow band just below toxic thresholds.
Experimental studies on nicotine titration show that smokers adjust their inhalation when given cigarettes with varying nicotine content to maintain stable baseline levels.
“What you find is that people titrate. If you give them the high nicotine cigarette, they dial back and they dial back their smoking” 1:23:13
People are exceptionally accurate at keeping their nicotine levels within a narrow range, suggesting an evolved regulatory mechanism for handling dangerous substances.
“folks are very, very accurately titrating their levels of nicotine in a very narrow range.” 1:23:32
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Ed Hagen discuss how drug addiction involves bypassing human toxin defense mechanisms, such as injecting opioids or snorting cocaine, rather than engaging innate taste and metabolic defenses. They explore potential links between immune activation, parasite loads, and drug susceptibility, while critiquing the traditional concept of addiction.
A lot of it is that the way you take a lot of those uh ones that are really dangerous is you bypass a lot of your toxin detection mechanisms.
“bypass a lot of your toxin detection mechanisms” 1:24:36
Stimulating the immune system does increase drug intake in laboratory animals.
“stimulating the immune system does increase drug intake in laboratory animals” 1:26:43
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Ed Hagen examine tobacco use, the controversies surrounding vaping as a safer alternative delivery method for nicotine, and how evolutionary insights challenge simplistic pop-culture views of neurotransmitters and addiction.
It's not the nicotine that kills you with smoking, it's all the other stuff um that gives you cancer much later in life or heart disease.
“it's not the nicotine that kills you” 1:31:56
The buzz and the high is not from neurotransmitters, it's from compounds that evolve to interfere with cellular signaling.
“from compounds that evolve to interfere with with cellular signaling” 1:35:46
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Ed Hagen discuss the history of evolutionary anthropology controversies, specifically addressing the false accusations made in the book *Darkness in El Dorado* against Napoleon Chagnon and geneticist James Neil. Hagen explains how Neil's historical field research in small-scale societies revealed a significant reproductive skew among headmen and proposed that general intelligence and diverse skills drove both leadership success and human encephalization.
Neil had this really key insight back in the 1950s and early 60s
“Neil had this really key insight back in the 1950s and early 60s” 1:41:07
what traits allow these men to rise into leadership positions? And his answer was intelligence
“What traits allow these men to rise into leadership positions? And his answer was intelligence” 1:42:51
Ed Hagen, Dave Pietraszewski, and David Pinsof explore empirical findings with student Zach Garfield regarding leadership and intelligence across cultures. They discuss how leaders in small-scale societies offer value to both men and women by resolving conflicts across nested social structures, noting that the cognitive skills required to be an effective community leader overlap with those needed to be a successful husband.
leaders are nearly universally viewed, not all leaders, but just in general, every culture values intelligent, knowledgeable leaders
“leaders are nearly universally viewed, not all leaders, but just in general, every culture values intelligent, knowledgeable leaders” 1:45:46
what leaders are doing across cultures is solving conflicts to prevent group visioning
“what leaders are doing across cultures is solving conflicts to prevent group visioning” 1:47:39
191:48:22 – 1:54:27Computational Services, Parenting Demands, and Evolutionary Psychology
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Ed Hagen discuss how cognitive abilities evolved as valuable computational services provided to others, comparing leadership roles to the intensive problem-solving and conflict management mothers perform within families, highlighting parenting as an understudied area in evolutionary psychology.
The speakers suggest that selection on cognitive abilities may have occurred heavily in mothers managing complex family environments rather than just male community leaders.
“moms leading their families and doing exactly the same thing that the headman is doing” 1:51:07
In the concluding segment, the hosts and Ed Hagen reflect on unvisited topics such as music, dance, and society leadership challenges, before diving into a discussion on academic publishing economics, journal profits, and library subscription costs, ending with podcast outro announcements.
The participants discuss the paradox of high publishing profits alongside standard article processing charges in academic journals.
“there's a paradox there. Um that their publishing profits are insane” 1:56:49