The conversation, in brief.
In this episode of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof are joined by guest Athena Aktipis to explore cooperation, conflict, and the extended phenotype across biological and social systems. Aktipis discusses how evolutionary dynamics manifest in zombification, epistemic vigilance, and human responses to threats and disasters. The conversation examines institutional bureaucracy, intergenerational conflict, and the transition between zero-sum competition and positive-sum resource expansion. Finally, Aktipis shares insights from her unconventional academic projects, including the Human Generosity Project, Cooperative Futures at Arizona State University, and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting, highlighting the psychology of serendipity and music-driven physiological synchrony.
Through the conversation.
16 sections010:02 – 5:24Eclectic Interests and the Science of Cooperation
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce guest Athena Aktipis, discussing her wide-ranging research interests across the biological and social sciences. Aktipis explains how her work consistently revolves around the core theme of cooperation and conflict across multiple levels of organization, from cellular systems to human behavior.
Athena Aktipis notes that her diverse research interests ultimately revolve around the fundamental themes of cooperation and conflict.
“things end up revolving around this sort of vortex of cooperation and conflict” 4:38
The discussion shifts to the concept of zombification and Richard Dawkins' idea of the extended phenotype. The speakers examine how organisms can hijack the behavior or biology of others, exploring evolutionary implications for understanding parasites, manipulation, and human social phenomena like cults and religions.
Aktipis explains that the concept of zombification is grounded in Richard Dawkins' extended phenotype framework.
“it's really grounded in the extended phenotype idea that you know Richard Dawkins talked about” 5:51
Aktipis points out that adaptive behaviors do not always serve the individual performing them, but can instead serve another entity.
“Sometimes the adaptive function is serving the evolutionary interests of a different entity.” 10:22
0312:04 – 17:42Epistemic Vigilance and the Evolution of Manipulation
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Athena Aktipis discuss how extended phenotype frameworks help explain interpersonal conflict and destructive behavior. Drawing on Hugo Mercier's work on epistemic vigilance, they explore human resistance to manipulation, propose the existence of a corresponding manipulation psychology, and analyze how perceived alignment or misalignment governs social coordination.
this idea that we have evolved psychological and epistemic defenses to being manipulated
“this idea that we have evolved um psychological and epistemic defenses to being manipulated” 13:49
if we do have adaptations for epistemic vigilance of resisting being manipulated, then we must also have adaptations for doing the manipulating
“if we do have adaptations for epistemic vigilance of resisting being manipulated, then we must also have adaptations for doing the manipulating.” 14:51
0417:42 – 24:06Computational Frameworks for Alignment, Mental Illness, and Feedback Loops
The speakers apply signal detection theory to human assessments of interest alignment and misalignment, linking miscalibrations in these systems to conditions like borderline personality disorder. They also examine how feedback loops, memory reinterpretation, and information foraging influence social cognition, political outrage consumption, and the continuum between symbiosis and parasitism.
that seems like a miscalibration of a system that actually is designed to be really effectively detecting cues of alignment or misalignment
“so to me, that seems like a miscalibration of a system that actually is designed to be really effectively detecting cues of alignment or misalignment” 18:07
Host David Pinsof, host Dave Pietraszewski, and guest Athena Aktipis discuss how shared threats, such as natural disasters, foster high levels of human cooperation and alignment. They examine how environmental challenges create feelings of interdependence, while institutional bottlenecks or failures can lead to cooperation fatigue and breakdown.
you see extremely high levels of cooperation, altruism in the aftermath of disasters
“extremely high levels of cooperation, altruism in the aftermath of disasters” 26:23
if those efforts of you know collective recovery don't translate into things happening... Then you get this fatigue
“collective recovery don't translate into things happening” 27:50
The speakers explore the transition between positive-sum and zero-sum interactions, introducing concepts like cooperation energy and coordination capacity. Guest Athena Aktipis and host David Pinsof discuss how cultural events like Burning Man signal coordination capacity, and how bureaucratic structures can inadvertently undermine evolved human cooperative psychology.
so much of what is going on there is costly signaling of the cooperation energy and the coordination capacity.
“costly signaling of the cooperation energy and the coordination capacity” 34:07
Host Dave Pietraszewski, guest Athena Aktipis, and host David Pinsof discuss how bureaucratic systems in institutions can block cooperation vortices. They examine how zero-sum resource competition and political power struggles can create low-trust environments where climbing power hierarchies replaces collective production.
bureaucratic systems that actually interfere with that flow... we're losing a lot of potential value
“if you have bureaucratic systems that actually interfere with that flow” 36:57
whoever has the the political power to to do the interfering... becomes a zero-sum limited resource
“whoever has the the political power to to do the interfering, to to stop the vortices, well, that power itself becomes a zero-sum limited resource” 38:24
0840:04 – 48:12Intergenerational Conflict and Ancestor-Descendant Dynamics
The speakers explore lower-level cooperation and conflict between younger and older generations, linking parent-offspring conflict to broader ancestor-descendant dynamics, institutional evolution, and economic ecologies that shift power between generations.
cooperation at the lower level is often threatening to the institution at the higher level
“cooperation at the lower level is often threatening to the institution at the higher level” 40:04
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Athena Aktipis discuss the dynamics of zero-sum versus non-zero-sum situations in familial and social contexts, exploring how individuals navigate conflict and choose to expand shared resources rather than fight over fixed portions.
versus in a non-zero sum situation, you're gonna use some of that limited time and energy to make the pie bigger
“versus in a non-zero sum situation, you're gonna use some of that limited time and energy to make the pie bigger” 49:15
Guest Athena Aktipis shares advice with hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof on pursuing unconventional academic passions, managing institutional fear, and how small investments of time can grow into large-scale, funded research initiatives like the Human Generosity Project.
There's never going to be the time where you're like, oh, I now have the time to spend 20% of my time on the things that I'm most excited about.
“There's never going to be the time where you're like, oh, I now have the time” 52:22
that started just because I thought it was really interesting.
“that started just because I thought it was really interesting.” 53:53
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Athena Aktipis discuss the feeling of serendipity and connection, interpreting it through evolutionary theory as an emotional readout of positive assortment and cooperative potential. They examine how human brains detect alignment, cooperation energy, coordination capacity, and the absence of exploiters, while critiquing academic blind spots toward positive emotions and informal social phenomena.
that like literally that feeling is related to our brains detecting that there is a positive cooperative opportunity there.
“literally that feeling is related to our brains detecting that there is a positive cooperative opportunity there” 1:01:26
The speakers connect academic institutions and mentorship dynamics to ancestor-descendant conflict and extended phenotypes. Athena Aktipis outlines her diverse research and public engagement initiatives at Arizona State University through Cooperative Futures, detailing projects that apply the science of cooperation to emerging challenges such as artificial intelligence, interspecies fermentation, and public science communication.
thinking about how all of these things interact with the institutions that we've built around learning, around research, around, you know, sort of building the um knowledge commons, right, that we have as humans uh is a whole other layer and level.
“thinking about how all of these things interact with the institutions that we've built around learning” 1:09:34
the first bucket is uh the work that I'm doing at ASU and really like in the academic environment with cooperative futures at ASU, which is um this new entity that really is about how do we take the science of cooperation and apply it to emerging challenges.
“the work that I'm doing at ASU and really like in the academic environment with cooperative futures at ASU” 1:10:52
Athena Aktipis discusses her academic and entrepreneurial projects, including her work at ASU and Agentic Intelligence Systems. She describes organizing the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting as a playful framework for discussing challenging frontier topics and building cross-disciplinary collaboration, noting how shared language helps connect peers.
essentially that meeting is about creating a very playful frame for engaging about topics that are kind of scary
“essentially that meeting is about creating a very playful frame” 1:16:41
the language and framing of the zombie apocalypse would also create a shared language that let people kind of drop their jargon
“the sort of language and framing of the zombie apocalypse would also create a shared language” 1:17:53
Athena Aktipis and the hosts discuss music integration in her events and a pilot study investigating physiological synchrony among amateur and professional musicians jamming at a bluegrass festival, illustrating how creative side projects can evolve into mainstream research.
we're going to be able to look at how the acoustic features of their playing relate to their physiological synchrony
“how the acoustic features of their playing relate to their physiological synchrony” 1:22:18
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof express their appreciation for guest Athena Aktipis, praising her courage and impact on the evolutionary behavioral sciences. Athena Aktipis responds by noting that pursuing fun and interesting work sets an example for others, creating a shared responsibility to show that such endeavors are possible.
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof thank Athena Aktipis and highlight how her approach inspires others in the evolutionary behavioral sciences.
“I think that uh I wish there were more people like you and thank you for being in the evolutionary behavioral sciences.” 1:24:55
Athena Aktipis discusses how setting an example gives individuals a responsibility to show others that creative work can be done.
“So you kind of have a responsibility to do it, not just to yourself, but to the rest of the world.” 1:25:26
In the closing portion of the episode, Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof reflect on the conversation's playful vibe, jokingly reference "the vortex," and encourage listeners to support the show through reviews or Patreon while suggesting listeners enjoy or play music.
A passage from this discussion.
“Play some music or enjoy some music.” 1:26:53