Through the conversation.
21 sections010:00 – 6:53Introduction and the Cultural Psychology of Philadelphia
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce their podcast and guest Jaimie Krems, a professor at UCLA. The conversation quickly pivots to an enthusiastic discussion about Philadelphia, comparing its unique sports culture and "team first" mentality to coalitional psychology and academic communities.
it's a weird place full of terribly literate belligerents.
“It's a weird place full of terribly literate belligerents.” 4:18
team supersedes race, class, gender, sexual oriented all the whole enchilada team is above all.
“team supersedes race, class, gender, sexual oriented all the whole enchilada team is above all.” 5:04
026:53 – 12:02Finding Explanatory Bedrock in Evolutionary Psychology
The hosts and Jaimie Krems discuss why they were initially drawn to evolutionary psychology. They explore how evolutionary theory provides satisfying foundational explanations for human behavior, contrasting it with other cultural or philosophical frameworks that fail to answer deeper questions of ultimate causation.
It does feel more like a team than I mean, social psychology is huge.
“It does feel more like a team than I mean, social psychology is huge.” 8:01
You want to hit explanatory bedrock.
“You want to hit explanatory bedrock.” 10:26
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof chat with guest Jaimie Krems about her intellectual background, including how she discovered evolutionary psychology through popular science books and her time studying at Oxford with Robin Dunbar, connecting early inspirations to her broader academic journey.
I love when exceptions can help you prove the rule.
“exceptions can help you prove the rule” 19:21
0419:53 – 24:06The Social Brain Hypothesis and Cognitive Adaptations
The speakers examine the social brain hypothesis, discussing whether large human brains evolved primarily to navigate complex social landscapes and politics rather than solitary tool-making. They also consider how traditionally solitary cognitive faculties, such as reasoning and episodic memory, are increasingly understood as social adaptations.
The reason why we have these huge noggins is so we can get inside each other's heads and get inside each other's heads, getting inside of our heads, and think through many layers of social complexity and recursive mentalizing
“The reason why we have these huge noggins is so we can get inside each other's heads” 20:20
Reasoning is a social tool. It's for justifying and making excuses to other members of your social group and for trying to win arguments
“reasoning is a social tool. It's for justifying and making excuses” 22:41
0524:06 – 33:27Academic Paths and Fieldwork Preferences in Evolutionary Psychology
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Jaimie Krems discuss the navigation of academic disciplines, comparing the practical realities of psychology and anthropology. They recount humorous field stories about field site hardships, academic mentorship rejections, and the journey toward graduate programs at Arizona State University.
Jaimie Krems explains her pragmatic preference for social psychology over anthropology due to her aversion to grueling fieldwork conditions.
“my honest answer um is that I wanted to do evolutionary social science and I did not care whether I was in anthropology or psychology” 26:14
Jaimie Krems shares how Doug Kenrick and Steve Newberg convinced her during a recruitment visit that ASU could help her secure a sustainable academic career.
“listen, um, can you make me the best evolutionary psychologist?” 32:18
0633:27 – 36:09Securing Academic Positions and Transitioning to Friendship Research
Jaimie Krems discusses landing an academic position at Oklahoma State University, establishing a research center, and eventually moving to UCLA. The conversation transitions toward her core research interests in human relationships and the study of friendship.
Jaimie Krems reflects on her placement at Oklahoma State University and the subsequent creation of the Oklahoma Center for Evolutionary Analysis.
“I applied. I got the job at Oklahoma State University. And with Jen Bird Craven, we created the Oklahoma Center for Evolutionary Analysis” 34:16
0736:09 – 39:20Evolutionary Perspectives on Friendship and Social Competition
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Jaimie Krems discuss the study of women's social relationships, noting that competition and aggression rely on the same underlying cognitive machinery as friendship and alliance building. Krems explains her long-term goal to establish friendship science within the social sciences, drawing parallels to how evolutionary biology and engineering enhance our understanding of human behavior and help address real-world social challenges.
it turns out that the competition and aggression is sort of built on the same machinery as friendship
“it turns out that the competition and aggression is sort of built on the same machinery as friendship.” 36:32
I want the way that we think to pervade the social sciences
“I want the way that we think to pervade the social sciences.” 38:26
0839:20 – 48:15The Modern Loneliness Epidemic and Health Impacts of Social Connection
The speakers examine the modern problem of adult loneliness and its severe consequences for physical health and well-being. Krems highlights research showing that lacking social support is comparable to smoking cigarettes daily, discusses potential physiological and stress-related mechanisms, and notes that empirical intervention data for making adult friends remain sparse despite ongoing studies.
having social support, which I would argue is including and perhaps mostly friends, is so lacking social support, let's say, is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day
“having social support, which I would argue is including and perhaps mostly friends, is so lacking social support, let's say, is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day” 42:02
What are the mechanisms that lead from friendship to health or social support to health? We don't know.
“What are the mechanisms that lead from friendship to health or social support to health? We don't know.” 43:47
0948:15 – 55:59The Dangers of Pop Psychology Advice and Urban Loneliness
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Jaimie Krems discuss the prevalence of premature advice in social science and how modern urban environments and lack of shared physical architecture contribute to the loneliness epidemic. They explore how small-scale societies and smart city planning historically fostered natural, repeated social interactions.
Jaimie Krems argues that social science fields frequently give too much advice based on insufficient empirical data.
“We are giving way too much advice on way too little data.” 49:29
Jaimie Krems explains that making a friend requires a significant investment of time based on previous psychological research.
“It takes 200 hours to make a friend.” 55:33
The speakers examine the difficulties of coordinating schedules and the complex social dynamics of forming friendships. They discuss how showing eagerness to make friends can inadvertently signal low status or desperation, creating a challenging feedback loop for people seeking social connection.
Jaimie Krems notes that appearing too eager to make friends can be perceived negatively as a sign of low status.
“you're kind of low status and cringe. That like you must not have a lot of friends” 57:37
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Jaimie Krems discuss the inherent uncertainties and asymmetries in friendships, where individuals often misjudge how much others like them. They compare friendship dynamics to romantic relationships, noting that friendships lack clear relational milestones, escalation stages, or cultural scripts, creating significant coordination and common knowledge challenges.
if I secretly don't like someone as much as they like me, or if I don't like them at all, like we're very reluctant to sh let them know
“if I secretly don't like someone as much as they like me, or if I don't like them at all, like we're very reluctant to sh let them know.” 1:00:33
there's no first base, second base, or third base for friendship
“there's no first base, second base, or third base for friendship” 1:02:43
The speakers explore what constitutes the equivalent of relational milestones or physical intimacy in friendships, such as making independent plans to hang out. Jaimie Krems shares personal anecdotes about how sharing sensitive information acts as a form of social vulnerability and bonding, and the group reflects on shared academic backgrounds and communication styles.
You have made plans to hang out with one another on your own without um uh you know the whatever structure in which you met
“You have made plans to hang out with one another on your own without um uh you know the whatever structure in which you met.” 1:05:22
sharing sensitive information is a bit of a bearing of the neck or a showing of the stomach
“sharing sensitive information is a bit of a bearing of the neck or a showing of the stomach.” 1:08:31
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Jaimie Krems discuss how shared cultural interests and touchstones help facilitate friendships and social bonding. They explore neuroscience research on brain synchrony among friends watching videos together, and examine whether the decline of broad cultural touchpoints and the rise of niche streaming content contribute to increasing loneliness.
it really helps to have a shared thing that you're into. So we're all into F-Psych. Um and it's really hard to be friends with someone if you don't have a shared thing.
“it really helps to have a shared thing that you're into.” 1:12:19
people who are friends, and this comes from some Carolyn Parkinson's work, they have, and people who are closer in the social network and necessarily friends sometimes, right? So end up having more brain synchrony when they watch videos.
“people who are friends, and this comes from some Carolyn Parkinson's work, they have” 1:13:23
The speakers examine whether belonging to a minority or embattled group, such as evolutionary psychology, increases camaraderie beyond simple group membership. They discuss how costly initiation rites, hazing, and entry barriers act as mechanisms to weed out uncommitted individuals and predict group longevity, connecting these dynamics to agent-based modeling of social association values.
an ingredient of friendship is not merely having a shared thing or a shared group identity, but having a shared group identity that is in some way embattled.
“an ingredient of friendship is not merely having a shared thing” 1:19:08
hazing is sort of a like the sousis in other people. I know Andy Dalton was sort of in Aldo, Chimino Hi, Aldo. I'm not sure where you are now, but uh Aldo uh people were looking at this with the idea that sort of hazing is sort of the institutional structure that's a workaround when it's not an embattled thing.
“hazing is sort of a like the sousis in other people.” 1:21:34
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Jaimie Krems discuss agent-based models showing how reciprocity and third-party social learning lead groups to assort by association value, similar to mating markets. They also explore the challenges that romantic partners and couples introduce into social dynamics and friendship networks.
What you end up finding is that people will actually, the groups will assort by value, by association value, even then that's not programmed into the agents.
“people will actually, the groups will assort by value, by association value” 1:25:23
If you strip out the third party representation where I don't use that transitive model and I'm just looking at who reciprocates, you don't get it.
“If you strip out the third party representation” 1:25:34
The hosts and Jaimie Krems examine why friendship is culturally viewed as a fluffy luxury rather than a costly evolutionary investment with trade-offs. They discuss ambivalent or bad friendships, the hidden social drains of peer networks, and why adult friendship has historically been understudied by psychologists compared to romantic relationships.
Jaimie Krems explains that people often mistakenly think of friendship purely as a positive, happy good without considering its underlying costs and trade-offs.
“friendship is a pure good. Like friendship is great, hugs are great.” 1:30:39
Jaimie Krems notes that a compounding reason for the lack of research on friendship is instinct blindness, where people do not view friendship as a challenge the mind must solve.
“there's a real instinct blindness there, right? That friendship is a challenge” 1:33:46
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Jaimie Krems discuss the historical lack of dedicated scientific theories or academic training regarding friendship in mainstream psychology. They explore how modern, affluent societies insulate people from ancestral hardships like extreme injuries or resource scarcity, which historically served as crucial tests for identifying true friends versus fair-weather companions.
Jaimie Krems points out that relationship science traditionally groups all relationships together and lacks any dedicated theory of friendship.
“There is literally no theory of friendships per se.” 1:37:31
David Pinsof suggests that modern safe societies isolate us from the extreme evolutionary hardships that once tested friendships.
“precisely because we're living in such modern, affluent, safe societies with police” 1:40:28
The speakers examine evolutionary psychology frameworks for friendship, including the alliance hypothesis and the banker's paradox model of social insurance. Jaimie Krems and David Pinsof discuss how evolutionary perspectives provide robust theories that mainstream relationship science misses, while also noting that researchers often rely too heavily on college student samples removed from real economic hardships.
Jaimie Krems explains that evolutionary psychology offers established frameworks like the alliance hypothesis to explain friendship formation.
“we have this alliance hypothesis of friendship that suggests that friendship is in part” 1:42:36
Guest Jaimie Krems and the hosts discuss the definition of friendship, distinguishing it from romantic relationships, and examine cognitive mechanics such as allocentric representations and welfare trade-off ratios in navigating social alliances and interpersonal conflicts.
It turns out friends are more genetically related to one another than they would be by chance alone.
“It turns out friends are more genetically related to one another than they would be by” 1:49:36
We have these allocentric representations, which are our best bet to form reciprocally our egocentric friend ranking.
“allocentric representations, which are our best bet, right? This is not necessarily reality to form” 1:52:26
The speakers explore the wider network implications and externalities of friendship, noting the absence of 'friendship' in human universals lists and discussing the cultural lack of precise vocabulary for platonic attraction and courtship.
Friendship extends beyond the dyad, carrying positive and negative externalities for other members in a social network.
“we need to think about those kinds of positive and negative externalities of of friendship.” 1:56:13
There is a notable lack of formal vocabulary in popular lexicon for platonic attraction and friendship courtship.
“we don't even have words for some of these things, right?” 1:57:58
In this closing segment of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof express their appreciation for the open-ended conversation with guest Jaimie Krems. They reflect on the enjoyment of discussing ideas freely and discuss potential future topics, before thanking listeners and prompting them to leave reviews or support the show on Patreon.
Jaimie Krems expresses her appreciation for the open-ended discussion and conversation about ideas.
“It makes me want to cry to remember that I like this.” 2:00:38