Through the conversation.
22 sections010:00 – 7:06Welcome, Halloween Traditions, and Morbid Curiosity
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce the podcast, discuss their fondness for Halloween, and share a funny parenting anecdote about a daughter's morbid curiosity regarding rotting teeth. They then introduce guest Coltan Scrivner to discuss the evolutionary psychology of horror and morbid curiosity.
as far as I'm aware, it's Evolutionary Psychology the Podcast.
“as far as I'm aware, it's Evolutionary Psychology the Podcast.” 0:07
understanding your research and the development of morbid curiosity has helped me to deal with that as a parent
“understanding your research and the development of morbid curiosity has helped me to deal with that as a parent” 5:42
027:06 – 12:01Evolutionary Perspectives on Fear, Threats, and Abandoned Places
Coltan Scrivner explains his background in anthropology and biology and his research focus on why humans are drawn to threats and negative stimuli. The speakers discuss the evolutionary inputs of the horror genre and why people are fascinated by abandoned places and ancient civilizations.
humans are evolved creatures and that influences um our psychology
“humans are evolved creatures and that influences um our psychology” 7:58
if you see somewhere that looks like it has a lot of resources... and you see that it's abandoned, you might ask, well, why would people leave such a rich place
“if you see somewhere that looks like it has a lot of resources, could be a good place to live, and you see that it's abandoned, you might ask, well, why would people leave such a rich place of resources?” 11:31
0312:01 – 20:34Evolutionary Origins and Appeal of Horror and Morbid Curiosity
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Coltan Scrivner discuss why humans are naturally drawn to horror, scary stories, and morbid curiosity. They explore how our evolutionary history makes dangerous situations and threat cues particularly engaging, comparing the psychological drive for scary information to the evolutionary craving for sweet, high-calorie foods.
when we see something dangerous on our screen, or even we're imagining it or reading it in a book, hearing a story from someone, our mind is getting one set of input information that says, here's some important information, you should pay attention
“our mind is getting one set of input information that says, here's some important” 16:29
learning is intrinsically rewarding. Um, you know, if you're updating your model of the world and updating feeling like you're gaining valuable information on the cheap, that's intrinsically rewarding
“learning is intrinsically rewarding. Um, you know, if you're updating your model of the world” 19:25
0420:34 – 24:04Episodic Memory, Storytelling, and True Crime Consumption
The hosts and Coltan Scrivner examine the role of episodic memory in consuming scary narratives and true crime. They discuss how stories provide a Goldilocks middle ground of specific details without obvious bottom-line lessons, allowing people—including women watching true crime to relax—to extract insights about danger, threat avoidance, and pattern recognition.
one of the arguments for why we have episodic representations, it's sort of like a picture's worth a thousand words, is that there's there's a lot of information, and there's also information that uh you may not already know what lesson to draw from this episode
“there's a lot of information, and there's also information that uh you may not already” 21:26
if you watch a lot of those, you get really good at guessing who the bad guy is, why he did it, what the victim should have seen that they didn't. And that can be really comforting
“you get really good at guessing who the bad guy is, why he did it” 23:42
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Coltan Scrivner discuss how consuming horror and facing dangerous stimuli can reduce fear by increasing preparedness and confidence. They explore the evolutionary perspective of formidability asymmetries, noting how perceived vulnerability to a malicious antagonist elicits fear, and examine how mastering fear might signal competence and deter potential attackers.
fear is sort of a system for capturing more information
“fear is sort of a system for capturing more information.” 25:09
fear in the case of these stories, and probably in the case of many things, has to do with relative formidability asymmetries
“fear in the case of these stories, and probably in the case of many things, has to do with relative formidability asymmetries.” 28:36
0629:56 – 36:04Signaling Formidability and Defining the Horror Genre
The speakers discuss the Darwinian advantages of mastering fear and signaling formidability, referencing research on gruesomely violent behavior and its impact on perceived size and strength. Finally, Coltan Scrivner proposes an evolutionary definition of the horror genre based on narratives featuring a vulnerable protagonist and a malicious, more formidable antagonist.
people perceive gruesome actors to be larger, stronger
“people perceive gruesome actors to be larger, stronger.” 33:18
0736:04 – 45:56Analyzing Protagonist Vulnerability and Predator-Prey Dynamics in Film
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Coltan Scrivner discuss empirical research analyzing film genres using a protagonist vulnerability index. They examine how the asymmetry in formidability between antagonists and protagonists in horror films mirrors predator-prey dynamics in nature, comparing horror tropes to films like Jurassic Park, Terminator 2, and Predator.
what you find is that in horror movies, you have high formidability antagonist, low formidability protagonist.
“what you find is that in horror movies, you have high formidability antagonist, low” 36:28
it's not just high formidability that triggers fear, it's an asymmetry and formidability, right?
“it's not just high formidability that triggers fear, it's an asymmetry and formidability, right?” 40:04
0845:56 – 48:04Zombie Movies, Action Hybrids, and the Morbid Curiosity Scale
Coltan Scrivner, Dave Pietraszewski, and David Pinsof explore why zombie movies and shows like The Walking Dead are massive crowd-pleasers despite their gross imagery. They discuss how zombie narratives transition from horror into action-dramas as humans adapt, and introduce the morbid curiosity scale, highlighting domains like violence and body violations.
I think zombie movies are crowd pleasers. So, like some of the biggest uh horror film hits are zombie movies.
“I think zombie movies are crowd pleasers. So, like some of the biggest uh horror film hits are zombie movies.” 46:22
I created this scale to measure trait morbid curiosity. And there are four domains to it, right?
“I created this scale to measure trait morbid curiosity. And there are four domains to it, right?” 47:39
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Coltan Scrivner discuss the core categories of morbid curiosity, including dangerous people, violence, body violation, and the supernatural. They explore how zombie narratives tap into these elements, combining contagion, unpredictability, and ancient fears of infection or unknown threats.
Like, is this person like, do they have intentions or not?
“Like, is this person like, do they have intentions or not?” 49:02
And then if they catch you, your flesh is falling off.
“And then if they catch you, your flesh is falling off.” 49:17
The speakers examine how humans use supernatural explanations as placeholders for causally opaque phenomena, such as disease and murder. They also touch upon evolutionary perspectives on the uncanny valley, how different hominid species might have shaped fear responses, and how children experience the world as naturally more formidable and horrific.
All of life is like very causally opaque.
“all of life is like very causally opaque.” 51:43
The world is much more formidable than you.
“the world is much more formidable than you.” 58:10
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Coltan Scrivner discuss how children naturally gravitate toward scary games, stories, and play, such as the game Mafia. Scrivner and David Pinsof examine whether societal tendencies to shield children from scary fairy tales or morbid topics might backfire by increasing anxiety and hindering emotional coping skills.
kids love exploring those kind of topics in a safe way
“kids love exploring those kind of topics in a safe way” 1:02:42
Coltan Scrivner and the hosts explore how engaging with horror media and true crime can help adults manage generalized anxiety. By providing a controlled, attention-grabbing narrative, scary stories offer an off-ramp for rumination cycles and help individuals practice emotion regulation and cognitive reappraisal.
most people are actually not trying to make it as scary as possible ... you have to regulate how afraid you are
“most people are actually not trying to make it as scary as possible.” 1:09:03
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Coltan Scrivner discuss how anxious individuals frequently seek out horror movies to help regulate or self-medicate their anxiety. Drawing on an evolutionary and Darwinian framework, the speakers explore how fictional scary play allows people to confront perceived threats, build psychological resilience, and master dangerous concepts rather than simply avoiding negative feelings.
people who were anxious going in were the only people who are more likely to rent horror movies
“People who were anxious going in were the only people who are more likely to rent horror” 1:14:37
anxiety exists for a reason, it has a Darwinian function
“anxiety exists for a reason, it has a Darwinian function” 1:16:00
Coltan Scrivner shares empirical research examining psychological resilience during the COVID-19 pandemic. He explains how online studies conducted in early 2020 revealed that horror fans and individuals scoring high in morbid curiosity reported better psychological resilience, less anxiety and depression, and greater optimism about the future compared to others.
horror fans were more likely to report higher psychological resilience to the early months of the pandemic
“they were more likely to be um have to to report higher psychological resilience to” 1:21:32
people who were horror fans or more really curious were not losing as much sleep, not feeling as anxious
“people who were horror fans or more really curious were not losing as much sleep, not feeling as anxious” 1:23:53
Host David Pinsof, guest Coltan Scrivner, and host Dave Pietraszewski discuss how consuming scary stories and fiction about pandemics helps people navigate real-world crises by reducing generalized anxiety. They examine how horror fans practice regulating feelings of fear and explore cognitive software-level descriptions of emotion regulation, appraisal, and physiological arousal.
A passage from this discussion.
“consumed fiction about pandemics, they have a greater sense of like number one, what it is,” 1:24:35
The speakers discuss hypotheses about positive feedback loops between fear outputs and inputs, where physiological arousal can be misinterpreted as a cue of danger. They also examine how complex cognitive architectures require emotion regulation to corral cognitive systems and how training ahead of time automates responses during high-stress situations.
what you want to do is practice or train ahead of time to automate these are the systems, this is the set of algorithms to turn on in this situation
“what you want to do is practice or train ahead of time to automate these are the systems, this is the set of algorithms to turn on in this situation” 1:36:05
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Coltan Scrivner discuss how emotion regulation helps calibrate cognitive and physiological responses, comparing it to software adjustment. They explore how narrative storytelling in horror and risky play allows individuals to learn emotional control and how evolutionary perspectives help explain emotional rationality.
Scrivner and the hosts discuss how horror stories help teach people how to process and overcome fear and anxiety.
“horror is somewhat uniquely suited for teaching us how to feel afraid and feel anxious and overcome those feelings” 1:38:48
Pinsof notes that emotions are not the opposite of reason and that they require practical experience and learning.
“emotions themselves, we like to think of it as sort of the opposite of reason and learning. But I think emotions also need to need practical experience.” 1:39:32
Coltan Scrivner explains how he began researching morbid curiosity and human fascination with violence and dark phenomena during graduate school. He and the hosts highlight how applying an evolutionary framework reveals overlooked gaps in traditional psychological research regarding human attraction to the macabre.
A passage from this discussion.
“which is our fascination with the macabra and with darkness and violence.” 1:48:01
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Coltan Scrivner discuss the abundance of research opportunities in evolutionary psychology, contrasting the common criticism of untestable just-so stories with their actual experience of having too many testable predictions. They also explore the Recreational Fear Lab in Denmark, field experiments in haunted houses, and Scrivner's work on true crime and scary play.
my experience actually being in the field and doing evolutionary psychology research is that I have the exact opposite problem, is that it makes too many predictions.
“my experience actually being in the field and doing evolutionary psychology research is that I have the exact opposite problem, is that it makes too many predictions.” 1:49:48
They were kind of these like ways for us to do field experiments on fear that in ways that you can't induce in the lab, ethically or even like practically.
“They were kind of these like ways for us to do field experiments on fear that in ways that you can't induce in the lab, ethically or even like practically.” 1:52:08
Guest Coltan Scrivner shares details about his website, Substack, and his new popular science book 'Morbidly Curious'. Hosts Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Scrivner reflect on the value of books in inspiring researchers, the unique freedom of writing for general audiences, and the growth of sophisticated cognitive science in areas like horror and humor.
It is uh a very it's it's an interesting book because it's it's very much a popular science book.
“It is uh a very it's it's an interesting book because it's it's very much a popular science book.” 1:53:42
And I think I'm I'm pretty fortunate that I'm I study I study something that um pretty much everyone has an opinion on and has experienced.
“pretty much everyone has an opinion on and has experienced.” 1:59:21
Dave Pietraszewski shares a personal anecdote about watching Jaws with his three-year-old daughter, reflecting on how Coltan Scrivner's research helped him view morbid curiosity as a normal, healthy part of development rather than something to fear. The speakers discuss how parental presence provides a secure base for children to engage with scary media.
this is actually a normal, healthy part of development that she's curious about this.
“this is actually a normal, healthy part of development that she's curious about this.” 2:01:43
having her father next to her is a very comfort. That's a comforting thing for a primate
“having her father next to her is a very comfort. That's a comforting thing for a primate” 2:02:38
The hosts thank guest Coltan Scrivner for joining the show, share lighthearted tips on Halloween costume preparation, and discuss ways listeners can support the podcast through reviews, Patreon, and existential reflection.
they can write us a kind review. Uh they can support us on Patreon
“they can write us a kind review. Uh they can support us on Patreon” 2:04:42