The conversation, in brief.
In this episode of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof are joined by Anne Pisor, director of the Sociality Lab at Penn State, to explore the complexities of inter-group relations, cooperation, and evolutionary anthropology. Pisor shares insights from her fieldwork in the Bolivian Amazon examining indigenous groups such as the Chimane, Mosetenes, and Interculturales using economic games and interviews. Together, the speakers discuss how traditional views of groups as rigid containers for cooperation often fail to capture flexible human interactions. They examine risk management, long-distance social relationships, parochial altruism, resource competition, and zero-sum dynamics like political power and labor markets, concluding with a look at generational shifts and cultural change.
Through the conversation.
18 sections010:00 – 5:48Introduction and Re-evaluating Traditional Group Boundaries
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce the podcast and guest Anne Pisor, who directs the Sociality Lab at Penn State. They discuss traditional views of group boundaries in evolutionary anthropology and social psychology, noting that researchers often view groups as rigid containers for cooperation and conflict, whereas field research reveals much more flexible and cross-boundary interactions.
people have this idea that groups, to the extent they exist, really are boundaries of interaction
“people have this idea that groups, to the extent they exist, really are boundaries of interaction.” 2:56
as I did more and more of that research, I realized that groups weren't really stopping anybody from cooperating
“as I did more and more of that research, I realized that groups weren't really stopping anybody from cooperating.” 5:14
025:49 – 12:02Defining Groups: Spatiotemporal Clusters, Identity, and Cooperation
Anne Pisor, David Pinsof, and Dave Pietraszewski explore what actually constitutes a group, distinguishing between spatiotemporal clusters from primatology, identity groups, and labels used to scaffold cooperation. They discuss how different definitions of groups often get conflated in behavioral sciences and anthropology.
there are two kind of through lines on what a group is that I think are somewhat implicit in the evolutionary behavioral sciences
“there are two kind of through lines on what a group is that I think are somewhat implicit” 6:23
it seems that there are certain kinds of labels, if you will, to pull on your language here, that are more reliably used to scaffold cooperation
“it seems that there are certain kinds of labels, if you will, to pull on your language” 10:37
0312:02 – 15:35Negotiating Group Identities and Interpersonal Coordination
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Anne Pisor discuss the complexities of group identities, contrasting human susceptibility to group labels with individual agency and entrepreneurial coordination. They examine how groups function in social science frameworks and the challenges of measuring individual psychology versus group dynamics.
there's all these negotiations of group identities as sort of entrepreneurial coordination things.
“there's all these negotiations of group identities as sort of entrepreneurial coordination things.” 13:54
it's no wonder that studying these things has been difficult and that we've often sort of oversimplified them.
“it's no wonder that studying these things has been difficult and that we've often sort of oversimplified them.” 15:25
Anne Pisor describes her anthropological fieldwork in the Bolivian Amazon, explaining how her initial assumptions about groups as containers for cooperation evolved. Pisor and the hosts discuss how people navigate ethnic boundaries, distance-based needs, and economic experiments to understand when groups actually shape cooperation.
what ended up happening, of course, is I had to take a big step back because I first found out by doing the field work, by by talking to folks that groups really mattered, but in very specific ways.
“what ended up happening, of course, is I had to take a big step back because I first found out by doing the field work” 17:13
what I started to realize is that we actually need to split these things apart, right?
“what I started to realize is that we actually need to split these things apart” 19:20
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Anne Pisor discuss methodological approaches using photographs in cross-cultural research across evolutionary anthropology. Anne Pisor shares her fieldwork in Bolivia studying three indigenous groups—the Mosetenes, Interculturales, and Chimane—using economic games to examine how out-group cooperation relates to market participation and perceptions of discrimination.
Chimane were giving a lot less money in these games, this kind of open and cooperative move to outgroup members relative to folks who identified as Moseten or Intercultural.
“Chimane were giving a lot less money in these games, this kind of open and cooperative move to outgroup members relative to folks who identified as Moseten or Intercultural.” 28:00
Shamani participants would really regularly say, I am never treated well by members of those groups.
“Shamani participants would really regularly say, I am never treated well by members of those groups.” 28:30
0629:28 – 36:05Evolved Design, Risk Management, and Spatial Cooperation
The speakers examine the evolved psychological design for representing groups and tracking how others treat us. Building on John Tooby's 'groups in mind' framework, Anne Pisor and the hosts discuss how human cooperation, risk management, mobility, and the necessity of accessing non-local resources shape inter-group relations and social strategies.
And I like what I'm hearing you say is that really there's the valve design for when when a group or collection of people are represented, just intrinsic to that is sort of how are they treating me.
“And I like what I'm hearing you say is that really there's the valve design for when when a group or collection of people are represented, just intrinsic to that is sort of how are they treating me.” 30:08
So inherently, it's a risk management problem. It's a risk management problem that comes from the kind of lifestyle we lead and is solved through cooperation.
“inherently, it's a risk management problem. It's a risk management problem that comes from the kind of lifestyle we lead” 35:33
0736:05 – 39:11Risk Buffering and Long-Distance Social Relationships
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Anne Pisor discuss how humans manage ecological risks like droughts and resource scarcity through long-distance exchange networks and social relationships, noting parallels in ethnographic accounts such as San hxaro exchange and the Kula ring.
groups are also sort of a way, or maybe groups is the wrong word, but sort of large scale or larger scale and spatially larger relationships are sort of key for risk buffering or risk management.
“groups are also sort of a way, or maybe groups is the wrong word, but sort of large scale or larger scale and spatially larger relationships are” 37:08
when times get rough for San people, they're traditionally very mobile people, sawn people would kind of scatter to the winds
“when times get rough for San people, they're traditionally very mobile people, sawn people would kind of scatter to the winds” 37:56
0839:11 – 48:10Parochial Altruism, Tribalism, and Resource Competition
David Pinsof and Anne Pisor examine the concept of parochial altruism, discussing the nuances of terminology like tribalism, the impact of researcher biases and funding on the study of intergroup conflict, and three key mechanisms driving intergroup behavior: resource competition, cultural institutions, and social valence.
parochial altruism has a specific meaning that comes out of early 2000s research, thinking especially about work by, for example, Sam Bowles
“parochial altruism has a specific meaning that comes out of early 2000s research, thinking especially about work by, for example, Sam Bowles” 44:26
it ends up when there's incentives for resource defense, when resources are very clumped in one particular place.
“it ends up when there's incentives for resource defense, when resources are very clumped in one particular place.” 46:11
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Anne Pisor discuss how group psychology drives inferences about warmth and competence, examining how ecological costs, social transmission, and boundary propaganda shape inter-group hostility and negative stereotyping.
That inference is itself part of the underlying group psychology, that I can validly generalize this trait from this individual to this other individual by virtue of the fact that they share the group label.
“That inference is itself part of the underlying group psychology, that I can validly generalize this trait from this individual to this other individual by virtue of the fact that they share the group label.” 49:01
The hosts and Anne Pisor explore whether resource competition encompasses social status and political power, discussing evolutionary fitness proxies, ancestral environments, and the salient attractors that trigger human groupishness and perceptions of value.
So what are what are the proxies that basically bring well-being? We'll use again kind of a gloss here about you know things that matter for folks.
“So what are what are the proxies that basically bring well-being? We'll use again kind of a gloss here about you know things that matter for folks.” 56:03
I think that resources are more than one thing. And I think there are certain resources that are just more salient to people in pretty predictable ways.
“I think that resources are more than one thing. And I think there are certain resources that are just more salient to people in pretty predictable ways.” 57:48
The hosts and guest discuss how resources such as land, food, and political power are categorized, exploring whether they are inherently zero-sum or shaped by social context, collaboration, and shared interests.
the more of it you have, the less of it I have.
“the more of it you have, the less of it I have.” 1:00:20
political power, I think, is a very strongly uh zero-sum resource.
“political power, I think, is a very strongly uh zero-sum resource.” 1:01:21
The speakers examine jobs as modern resources, discussing the contrast between economic models of labor and the human tendency to view jobs as zero-sum, alongside household risk diversification strategies.
economists will tell us that they're actually not a zero-sum resource.
“economists will tell us that they're actually not a zero-sum resource.” 1:08:59
risk diversification is kind of a through line of household decision making.
“risk diversification is kind of a through line of household decision making.” 1:10:21
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Anne Pisor discuss how specific high-paying jobs function as zero-sum resources in household economies. They explore how constrained labor markets lead individuals to make rational decisions under difficult circumstances, drawing parallels to wage labor in Bolivia and Kenya.
one job is a zero-sum resource
“one job is a zero-sum resource” 1:13:02
within that set, one may just take the best of a bad deal
“within that set, one may just take the best of a bad deal” 1:16:20
The hosts and Anne Pisor examine the role of inequality in intergroup relations and parochial altruism. They discuss how shrinking power distances between groups can escalate intergroup tensions and conflict, comparing human social dynamics with non-human primate behavior.
if that difference is very large, you actually can sometimes get what's called magnanimity going
“if that difference is very large, you actually can sometimes get what's called magnanimity going” 1:18:18
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Anne Pisor discuss conflict escalation models in animals and humans, comparing physical threat assessment with group size dynamics and norm coordination. Drawing on fieldwork in Peru, Pisor explains how numeric majorities and minority groups interact at cultural boundaries, influencing norm persistence and cultural stability.
And it's only when there's still ambiguity that there's an escalation to actually sometimes ritualize conflict
“And it's only when there's still ambiguity that there's an escalation to actually sometimes” 1:24:56
vocalizations are really key for actually hearing group size.
“vocalizations are really key for actually hearing group size.” 1:26:30
The speakers examine intergenerational differences in adopting new trades, languages, and norms, highlighting how young people drive cultural change due to lower sunk costs and flexibility. They discuss how cultural shifts function as zero-sum status games with distinct winners and losers, shedding light on intergenerational friction and contemporary culture wars.
when we talk about cultural change, they're often the prime movers
“when we talk about cultural change, they're often the prime movers” 1:31:20
every cultural change has winners and losers.
“every cultural change has winners and losers.” 1:35:52
Guest Anne Pisor discusses her academic background with hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof, explaining how she transitioned from undergraduate studies in psychology and anthropology into evolutionary behavioral sciences and fieldwork in the Amazon. She also shares how her field experiences led her to combine basic science with applied work on climate change and natural resource management.
And so that's actually how I ended up in the evolutionary behavioral sciences, is it checked all of my boxes.
“ended up in the evolutionary behavioral sciences, is it checked all of my boxes” 1:38:21
The hosts and guest Anne Pisor discuss balancing academic and industry roles, the value of academic publishing for driving intellectual progress compared to other formats like blogging, and concluding thoughts on their engaging conversation about evolutionary behavioral sciences and ongoing research connections.
And so that for me is is the is the thing that keeps me uh uh going uh in in that direction.
“thing that keeps me uh uh going uh in in that direction” 1:44:02