The conversation, in brief.
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof, alongside co-host Zach Garfield, interview professor emeritus Ray Hames about his pioneering work in human behavioral ecology, quantitative fieldwork with the Yanomamo, and his mentorship under Napoleon Chagnon. The discussion covers the methodological shifts toward the phenotypic gambit and hypothetico-deductive frameworks, challenges in cross-cultural psychology, and critiques of public narratives surrounding indigenous peoples, such as the myth of the ecologically noble savage. Additionally, the speakers explore evolutionary perspectives on aging, intergenerational transfers, sexual orientation, and the controversies surrounding Napoleon Chagnon's anthropological legacy.
Through the conversation.
18 sectionsHosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof, joined by co-host Zach Garfield, introduce guest Ray Hames, a professor emeritus at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. They discuss his pioneering contributions to the early wave of human behavioral ecology, his methodological expertise in time allocation data, and his extensive career studying subsistence-based communities.
A passage from this discussion.
“community, we actually had a guest, uh um co-host, which who was uh Zach Garfield.” 2:30
026:24 – 12:05Early Evolutionary Models and Critiques of E.O. Wilson
Ray Hames reflects on the challenges and controversies of applying mathematical models from evolutionary biology during the early days of human behavioral ecology. The speakers discuss early criticisms, the legacy of E.O. Wilson's sociobiology, and how oversimplified genetic determinism contrasted with flexible behavioral ecology models like optimal foraging theory.
E.O. Wilson made inaccurate claims, such as asserting that all hunter-gatherers were territorial.
“He said that you know all hunter gatherers were territorial.” 8:05
0312:05 – 20:17Behavioral Ecology and Evolutionary Psychology Foundations
Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof discuss with Ray Hames whether human behavioral ecology ignored psychology, exploring the phenotypic gambit, the shift toward a hypothetico-deductive framework inspired by economics, and the rejection of group selection models.
Ray Hames explains that human behavioral ecology focuses on behavior and its consequences through the phenotypic gambit, leaving neuromechanisms to other researchers.
“what we do is essentially what Graven calls the the phenotypic gambit.” 12:57
Ray Hames notes that the new evolutionary approach provided a rigorous hypothetico-deductive method similar to economics, replacing ad hoc psychological models.
“we finally had a good hypothetical to deductive method to test our ideas.” 15:53
0420:19 – 24:11Quantitative Fieldwork and Language Acquisition in Anthropology
Ray Hames discusses balancing quantitative data collection with qualitative ethnographic insights in anthropology, noting the influence of mentors like Nap Chagnon and the practical challenges of learning indigenous languages in the field.
Ray Hames highlights that strong motivation and daily necessity drive field researchers to learn indigenous languages quickly.
“the motivation is really powerful just to have some like normal human intercourse” 22:42
0524:11 – 28:45Early Fieldwork Experiences and Initial Encounters with the Yanomamo
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Ray Hames discuss Hames's early experiences traveling to Yanomamo territory without modern communication tools, navigating initial isolation, and interacting with the community. They talk about dealing with playful or aggressive threats, learning the local language, and finding psychological comfort within the village compared to urban resupply trips.
I was the first one dropped off at the end of the Orinoco.
“I was the first one dropped off at the end of the Orinoco” 24:49
The Anomamo treated me really, really well. They're very kind to me.
“The Anomamo treated me really, really well. They're very kind to me.” 26:47
0628:48 – 36:13Daily Routines, Data Collection, and Practical Fieldwork Challenges
The speakers discuss what a typical day of data collection looked like in the village, including tracking foraging and hunting trips, conducting behavioral observations, recording kinship data, and using paper and carbon sheets for time allocation studies. They also share practical advice from Napoleon Chagnon regarding equipment, clothing preservation, and field logistics in remote tropical environments.
Everything was pencil and paper, pencil and paper, and then carbon paper because you know you want to have backups.
“everything was pencil and paper, pencil and paper, and then carbon paper because you know you want to have backups” 32:58
He had a bunch of great tips for you know recording data, safeguarding data.
“he had a bunch of great tips for you know recording data, safeguarding data.” 34:12
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Ray Hames discuss Napoleon Chagnon's larger-than-life personality in the field, his integration with the Yanomamo, and the extensive skills required for jungle hunting compared to Western methods. Hames attributes Chagnon's success and local respect to his outgoing nature, generosity, and sharp shooting ability.
Nap really had a knack. They had a personality that he kind of had uh to some extent.
“Nap really had a knack. They had a personality that he kind of had” 36:44
I could have my shotgun and probably only hunt about, you know, one tenth of the efficiency that the Yanomamal have
“hunt about, you know, one tenth of the efficiency that the Yanomamal have” 42:33
0844:38 – 48:18Navigating Academic Societies and Changing Views on Science
Ray Hames shares his experiences presenting research at academic conferences, noting a growing hostility toward scientific and evolutionary approaches within the American Anthropological Association. He and the hosts discuss how organizations like the Human Behavior and Evolution Society provided a much more welcoming intellectual home for empirical anthropological work.
A passage from this discussion.
“Or was it, were you just presenting at the uh Human Behavior and Evolution Society?” 45:01
0948:19 – 53:42Methodological Challenges in Cross-Cultural Psychology and Ethnography
Ray Hames discusses with the hosts the difficulties of applying standard Western psychological questionnaires and concepts like depression to indigenous populations such as the Yanomamo. They examine how translation issues, intermediary languages, and cultural conditioning introduce noise into research, while also highlighting the social capital risks anthropologists face when asking intrusive personal questions.
Ray Hames explains why translating standard psychological questionnaires to the Yanomamo is problematic due to cultural and linguistic assumptions.
“And I had to tell him, I can't do the translation. It just makes no sense.” 49:32
Ray Hames points out that conducting research in a participant's second language acts as a filter that patterns their thinking.
“As it turns out, that sort of intermediary language can be a big have a big influence” 51:07
1053:44 – 1:00:22The Myth of the Ecologically Noble Savage and Indigenous Conservation
Ray Hames and the hosts explore public and scientific representations of indigenous peoples, addressing the persistent Rousseauian myth of the ecologically noble savage. Hames explains how political advocacy often creates hypocrisy regarding violence and environmental stewardship among tribal populations, and details how resource conservation actually functions under specific hierarchical and local market conditions in the Pacific.
Ray Hames describes how acknowledging negative behaviors like warfare among native populations can create donor backlash due to cultural hypocrisy.
“how dare you suggest the Yanamam are warlike because we can't get donors to help them out” 55:50
Ray Hames notes that effective conservation systems in the Pacific depend on local demand and institutional regulation by chiefs.
“these systems can work if the demand is local. That is, you're just trying to supply” 59:21
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Ray Hames discuss intergenerational resource transfers, contrasting the role of elders in hunter-gatherer societies where they are valued repositories of wisdom with modern Western societies where older individuals are often viewed as economic costs.
young couples beginning their family lives often can't produce enough food that they need to consume
“young couples beginning their family lives often can't produce enough food that they need to consume.” 1:00:50
our elders have never been more irrelevant than in any time in human history
“our elders have never been more irrelevant than in any time in human history” 1:03:07
The speakers explore homosexuality as an evolutionary mystery from a Darwinian perspective, discussing how cultural expectations around marriage, reproduction, and female sexual fluidity relate to relaxed selection pressures on heterosexuality.
heteropatriarchal norms ironically led to the evolution of homosexuality
“heteropatriarchal norms ironically led to the evolution of homosexuality” 1:12:14
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Ray Hames discuss how social norms regarding fertility and patriarchy influence sexual orientation and gender variation across different societies. They explore cross-cultural documentation of third and fourth genders, noting how behavior and preference are disentangled within diverse social systems.
patriarchy is something that has allowed homosexuality or bisexuality whatever to emerge
“patriarchy is something that uh has allowed uh homosexuality or bisexuality whatever to” 1:13:16
this sort of third gender or multigender system is quite common across societies
“This sort of third gender or multigender system is quite common across societies.” 1:15:31
141:18:29 – 1:24:26Evolutionary Perspectives on Sexual Orientation and Prenatal Environment
The speakers examine evolutionary puzzles surrounding sexual orientation, specifically how traits leading to zero direct fitness persist. They discuss Ray Blanchard's birth order model and fraternal birth order effects as a promising biological mechanism related to prenatal androgenization, alongside classic literature recommendations in evolutionary behavioral sciences.
how can a behavior that leads to zero fitness persist in a population generation after generation
“how can a behavior that leads to zero fitness persist in a population generation after generation” 1:19:00
Ray Hames, Dave Pietraszewski, and David Pinsof discuss foundational scholarly influences in behavioral ecology and evolutionary anthropology, including Richard Alexander and Don Simons, reflecting on graduate school experiences, academic mentorship, and the history of evolutionary approaches to human behavior at institutions like UCSB and Berkeley.
the most important thing I ever read was a paper by Richard Alexander
“the most important thing I ever read was a paper by Richard Alexander” 1:24:46
it was one of the most important books
“it was one of the most important books” 1:25:47
161:30:29 – 1:36:27Controversies Surrounding Napoleon Chagnon and Darkness in El Dorado
The speakers discuss the controversy surrounding Napoleon Chagnon and the book Darkness in El Dorado, characterizing it as a heavily flawed hit job driven by opposition to evolutionary approaches and Chagnon's findings on warfare, while highlighting the actual humanitarian vaccination efforts during the measles epidemic.
in my view, it was a kind of a hit job
“in my view, it was a kind of a hit job” 1:31:06
without their efforts, thousands of Yanomamal would have perished
“without their efforts, thousands of Yanomamal would have perished” 1:36:12
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guests thank Ray Hames for his extensive contributions to evolutionary anthropology. They discuss the impact of his teaching and mentorship at the University of Nebraska, noting his commanding classroom presence and the inspiration he provided to a new generation of evolutionary scientists.
A former student shares a memorable anecdote about Ray Hames commanding attention and discipline in a large lecture hall.
“Ray has such a commanding presence in the classroom.” 1:38:30
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to leave reviews, share the podcast via social media or word of mouth, and support them on Patreon, concluding with a lighthearted chat about music and 'vibes'.
The hosts encourage listeners to support the show by leaving positive reviews and sharing episodes with others.
“They can uh leave a good review.” 1:40:49