The conversation, in brief.
In this episode of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof are joined by guest Josh Snodgrass to discuss the Shuar Project, evolutionary medicine, and the complex health transitions associated with market integration. Snodgrass explains how moving from traditional subsistence living to market economies is neither entirely positive nor negative, initially bringing increased pathogen exposure and inequality, followed later by medical advancements and improved treatments. The conversation explores chronic psychosocial stress, reduced environmental control, and the impacts of social comparison and relative fitness. Finally, the speakers examine the importance of interdisciplinary integration across anthropology, psychology, and biology, while addressing the ethical dimensions of long-term fieldwork, community collaboration, and data sharing in indigenous populations.
Through the conversation.
16 sectionsHosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce the podcast and guest Josh Snodgrass. They discuss the intersection of evolution, health, psychology, and social networks, highlighting how market integration and environmental shifts impact human physical and mental health in complex, non-straightforward ways.
moving from a hunter-gatherer, hunter-for-cultural um maybe living into like a modern market thing, which is something like the Schwar are experiencing, is neither all good or neither all bad
“moving from a hunter-gatherer, hunter-for-cultural um maybe living into like a modern market thing, which is something like the Schwar are experiencing, is neither all good or neither all bad” 1:46
Josh Snodgrass joins the conversation to discuss his award-winning paper on lassitude—the emotion of being sick—and how it bridges human biology, human behavioral ecology, and evolutionary psychology. He explains the origins of the Shuar Project, detailing the impact of market integration and environmental change on health.
one of the big parts of the Schwar project is trying to understand this market integration process, this social change, this environmental change
“one of the big parts of the Schwar project is trying to understand this market integration process, this social change, this environmental change” 5:55
Guest Josh Snodgrass discusses the Shuar project in Amazonia alongside the Tsimane project in Bolivia with host Dave Pietraszewski. They explore how ecological differences, such as pathogen exposure and tapeworm presence, create distinct health risks, and how researchers evaluate market integration beyond simplistic models of westernization.
there's some actually subtle differences between Schwar and Chamani
“there's some actually subtle differences between Schwar and Chamani.” 13:31
it seems to have a huge effect in terms of like hemoglobin levels and anemia risk
“it seems to have a huge effect in terms of like hemoglobin levels and anemia risk” 14:59
Josh Snodgrass and the host examine the nuanced relationship between market integration and health outcomes in small-scale populations. They discuss how initial integration often brings increased pathogen risks from larger, sedentary communities, followed later by access to modern medicine and antibiotics, highlighting parallels with broader human historical shifts.
as they start to experience market integration, things get worse, And then as they continue on that, things get better and worse simultaneously
“as they start to experience market integration, things get worse, And then as they continue on that, things get better and worse simultaneously” 20:31
we're just getting to the point where we can sort of start to make some can draw some conclusions about the general principles
“we're just getting to the point where we can sort of start to make some can draw some conclusions about the general principles” 23:05
0524:06 – 30:05Market Integration, Health Transitions, and Cultural Perceptions of the Good Life
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Josh Snodgrass discuss the complex health transitions and chronic psychosocial stressors associated with market integration in indigenous communities like the Shuar. They explore how economic development introduces initial negative health impacts followed by medical improvements, but eventually triggers rising inequality, mental health challenges, and changes in how children perceive a good life.
we started developing more technologies, antibiotics, vaccines, new ways to mitigate the health problems
“technologies, antibiotics, vaccines, new ways to mitigate the health problems” 24:23
as you're sort of they're they're more in these market systems, but yet there's a huge level of inequality there, right?
“they're more in these market systems, but yet there's a huge level of inequality there” 25:23
0630:06 – 36:09Unpacking Mental Health, Biomarkers of Stress, and Social Network Disruptions
Host David Pinsof and guest Josh Snodgrass examine epidemiological and biological measures of stress and depression during market integration. They discuss how reduced environmental control, wage labor instability, and hierarchical social relationships contribute to chronic psychosocial stress and deteriorating social support systems despite wider economic opportunities.
we're often seeing increase in chronic psychosocial stress as people are going through this process of market integration.
“seeing increase in chronic psychosocial stress as people are going through this process of market integration.” 32:26
perceptions of people being able to control their environment and their own circumstances less, in that that tends to lead to higher levels of psychosocial stress
“perceptions of people being able to control their environment and their own circumstances less” 33:15
0736:09 – 44:21Methodological Challenges and Ethical Community-Based Research
Josh Snodgrass discusses with the hosts the complexities of conducting longitudinal field research, measuring subjective perceptions of social support and control, and navigating the ethical realities of working with indigenous and marginalized communities collaboratively.
measuring the absolute number of these things doesn't really get at how people perceive them
“measuring the absolute number of these things doesn't really get at how people perceive them.” 38:16
how do we work with communities that they're getting something out of this
“how do we work with communities that they're getting something out of this, right?” 42:20
0844:21 – 48:12Market Transitions, Rising Aspirations, and Inequality
The speakers examine why individuals in transitioning market economies experience shifting life aspirations and reduced satisfaction, driven by increased social inequality, relative deprivation, and exposure to differential access to modern amenities.
people's life aspirations or what they view as a good life are are much simpler
“people's life aspirations or what they view as a good life are are much simpler.” 44:41
part of it is that you start to see there there's going to be variation in who gets what
“part of it is that you start to see there there's going to be variation in who gets what” 45:58
0948:13 – 51:39Market Integration and Social Comparison in Evolving Societies
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Josh Snodgrass discuss how indigenous communities experience market integration, highlighting the impact of inequality and racism. They examine how evolutionary psychology shapes social comparison, fitness, and striving within changing economic hierarchies.
And in some sense, you might expect that from an evolutionary perspective. And that fitness is a relative uh thing.
“fitness is a relative uh thing” 50:00
They're moving into the bottom of the economic stratum, both socially and economically.
“moving into the bottom of the economic stratum, both socially and economically” 51:36
The speakers explore human needs, happiness, and meaning versus modern societal pressures in the United States. Josh Snodgrass compares human social environments to primate research by Robert Sapolsky, arguing that modern capitalist societies often misalign with our evolved psychological and physical needs.
And so I think we're just in some ways we've totally lost the plot in places like the US
“we've totally lost the plot in places like the US” 54:12
And like I feel like we just keep getting away from or not having our understanding of evolution inform how we design our societies
“evolution inform how we design our societies” 58:55
The hosts and Josh Snodgrass discuss how psychological science lags behind physical and chemical safety knowledge in modern societies. They examine cultural expectations around parenting, such as breastfeeding and independence, the challenges of establishing common knowledge on abstract health topics, and the role of cultural evolutionists in shaping public understanding.
we were putting lead in things. And then we like learned, oh, that's bad.
“putting lead in things. And then we like learned, oh, that's bad.” 1:00:46
the best thing you could do for a developing brain is like let it breastfeed for two years.
“best thing you could do for a developing brain is like let it breastfeed for two years.” 1:03:21
The speakers explore why academic disciplines study physical health and psychology as separate domains despite their deep biological interdependence. Snodgrass attributes this division to Western scientific reductionism, historical academic turf wars following the sociobiology debates of the 1960s and 1970s, and persistent resistance to integrating evolutionary psychology with human biology.
pretty much every aspect of our physical health and our biology has this bi-directional relationship with brain and behavior.
“every aspect of our physical health and our biology has this bi-directional relationship with brain and behavior.” 1:08:15
this reductionism can be useful, let's just take a subset of this and let's kind of focus in on it
“this reductionism can be useful, right? Like, okay, let's just take a subset of this” 1:08:51
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Josh Snodgrass discuss the false dichotomy between the mind and body, exploring how physiological systems, gut health, and mental health are deeply interconnected. They examine the tension between individual lifestyle interventions and broader structural or community-level changes, noting the challenges of navigating both scales in modern society.
physiological systems and that like it's not this brain you know body dualism
“physiological systems and that like it's not this brain you know body dualism” 1:12:20
eat only Twinkies for a month and tell us how how your mental health Abs Absolutely.
“eat only Twinkies for a month and tell us how how your mental health” 1:13:22
The speakers discuss the importance of re-localizing communities, small-scale social interactions, and how mobility and transportation relate to market integration and social networks. Josh Snodgrass shares his excitement about interdisciplinary integration across anthropology, psychology, and biology, highlighting specific journals and meetings like the Human Biology Association.
I think a lot about the like sort of re-localizing, right? Rather than the sort of globalizing.
“I think a lot about the like sort of re-localizing, right? Rather than the sort of globalizing.” 1:17:27
really integrating, you know, and really integrating across anthropology and to psychology and biology
“really integrating, you know, and really integrating across anthropology and to psychology and biology” 1:20:49
Guest Josh Snodgrass discusses a special issue of the American Journal of Human Biology featuring research from the Shuar Project. Josh and the hosts explore the political, practical, and ethical challenges of long-term fieldwork, highlighting how behind-the-scenes project realities and community engagement are rarely discussed in standard academic papers.
We just had a special issue of American Journal of Human Biology that was published.
“We just had a special issue of American Journal of Human Biology that was published.” 1:24:31
So like these sort of ethics of the community work.
“these sort of ethics of the community work.” 1:26:52
Josh Snodgrass explains ongoing work regarding data sharing tensions, particularly balancing scientific openness with the ethical implications and commodification of data concerning indigenous communities. Finally, the hosts thank the guest and conclude the episode with standard podcast outro reminders.
I've also got another paper that I'm working on right now with some other colleagues that's all on data sharing
“I've also got another paper that I'm working on right now with some other colleagues that's all on data sharing” 1:26:55
we should from a scientific standpoint share data. But we should also really be thinking about what does that mean for certain communities
“we should from a scientific standpoint share data. But we should also really be thinking about what does that mean for certain communities” 1:27:00