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EPISODE 39 / Feb 03, 2026

The Behavioral Immune System with Josh Tybur

Josh Tybur·2h 17m·24 sections
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The conversation, in brief.

In this episode of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof speak with guest expert Josh Tybur about the behavioral immune system, disgust psychology, and pathogen avoidance. Tybur shares insights from his longitudinal research tracking psychological variables during the COVID-19 pandemic in the Netherlands, noting that individual disgust sensitivity and related measures remained stable over time. The conversation explores the evolutionary logic of parasite stress, critiques of outgroup pathogen avoidance theories, the role of social valuation and relationship interdependence, and debates surrounding evolutionary mismatch. Additionally, the participants examine the intersection of disgust and moral psychology, comparing physical pathogen avoidance with moral condemnation, self-disgust, and social contagion.

QUESTIONS TO KEEP IN MIND

  • How did pandemic lockdowns and the COVID-19 pandemic affect psychological measures of disgust sensitivity over time?
  • What evidence challenges the hypothesis that outgroup prejudice stems directly from pathogen avoidance adaptations?
  • How do interpersonal relationships and social valuation moderate individual pathogen avoidance tendencies?
  • In what ways does evolutionary mismatch get overextended or left untested in evolutionary psychology?
  • How does personal self-disgust relate to moral condemnation and social norms among vegetarians and other groups?

Ideas to take with you.

  • Longitudinal tracking during the COVID-19 pandemic revealed remarkable stability in measures of disgust sensitivity and anti-immigrant bias due to high individual-level consistency. 12:23
  • Intergroup biases and pathogen avoidance tendencies appear to track assumptions of relationship interdependence and social valuation rather than ecological pathogen origins alone. 26:27
  • Josh Tybur argues that evolutionary mismatch is frequently overextended, poorly tested, and treated as a lazy narrative shortcut in evolutionary psychology. 1:19:46
  • Personal self-disgust toward engaging in specific behaviors—such as vegetarians contemplating eating meat—uniquely predicts negative evaluations of norm violations. 1:46:18

Open questions & qualifications

  • The speakers discuss skepticism surrounding whether outgroup prejudice is driven by ecological pathogen avoidance, noting that intergroup biases may instead track assumptions of interdependence. 25:30

Through the conversation.

24 sections
01
0:00 – 7:23

Introduction of Guest Josh Tybur and Life in the Netherlands

Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce guest expert Josh Tybur, discussing his expertise in disgust and disease psychology. Tybur shares his personal and academic journey moving from the US to Amsterdam during the financial crisis, reflecting on differences between American and European universities and experiencing pandemic lockdowns in an urban setting.

Josh is a uh expert in the field of disgust and disease psychology

“Josh is a uh expert in the field of disgust and disease psychology” 0:20

I was in a position to finish my PhD right when the great financial crisis was unfolding

“I was in a position to finish my PhD right when the great financial crisis was unfolding” 2:30
02
7:23 – 12:02

Studying Behavioral Immune System Responses During the COVID-19 Pandemic

Josh Tybur discusses his empirical research tracking psychological variables related to pathogen avoidance, disgust sensitivity, and outgroup attitudes during the COVID-19 pandemic in the Netherlands, providing insights into how human behavior and contact comfort changed when infectious disease threats became highly salient.

you have done some of the best and highest sample size research on the effects of pandemics on our psychology

“you have done some of the best and uh highest sample size research on the effects of pandemics on our psychology” 7:38

some people are more easily disgusted by bad smells and gross things than others

“some people are more easily disgusted by bad smells and, you know, just based on our folk psychology, gross things than others” 9:47
03
12:02 – 16:02

Long-term Pandemic Tracking and Individual Disgust Stability

Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Josh Tybur discuss a multi-year longitudinal study tracking behavioral immune system responses during the COVID-19 pandemic. Tybur explains that despite widespread reflective disease worries, measures of disgust sensitivity, anti-immigrant bias, and contact comfort remained stable over time due to high individual-level consistency.

We found zero differences in most of these variables.

“We found zero differences in most of these variables.” 12:23

individuals who are higher in disgust sensitivity are more negative toward immigrants.

“individuals who are higher in disgust sensitivity are more negative toward immigrants.” 15:54
04
16:02 – 24:02

The Evolutionary Logic of Pathogen Avoidance and Outgroups

Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Josh Tybur examine the evolutionary logic of the behavioral immune system, highlighting pioneering work by Mark Schaller and others. They discuss how ancient parasite pressures shaped human psychology across domains like eating and social interaction, and how local ecological adaptations may inform prejudice toward outgroups.

pathogens have been a problem for life on Earth pretty much as long as life on Earth has existed.

“pathogens have been a problem for life on Earth pretty much as long as life on Earth has existed.” 19:10

The idea here is that people specialize their immune responses to pathogens in their local ecologies.

“The idea here is that people specialize their immune responses to pathogens in their local ecologies.” 22:57
05
24:02 – 26:50

Skepticism of Outgroup Pathogen Avoidance Theories

Josh Tybur and Dave Pietraszewski discuss skepticism surrounding the hypothesis that the mind evolved to treat out-group membership as a cue to pathogens. Tybur highlights counterevidence from social psychology, including minimal group paradigms and coalition detection, suggesting that intergroup biases track assumptions of interdependence rather than ecological origins.

the psychology of groups has very little overlap with ecological origin

“the psychology of groups has very little overlap with uh ecological origin.” 25:30

these perceptions or at least behaviors of intergroup biases are really tracking assumptions of interdependence

“that these perceptions or at least behaviors of intergroup biases are really tracking assumptions of interdependence.” 26:27
06
26:51 – 36:02

Detecting Cues of Contagion and Relationship Value

The speakers examine how people detect real infection cues versus relying on general relationship valuation. They discuss experimental findings showing that individuals use visual and acoustic signals of immune activation and calibrate pathogen avoidance tendencies based on how much they value specific social partners.

people are calibrating their pathogen avoidance tendencies for specific individuals based on how important that person is to them

“people are calibrating their pathogen avoidance tendencies for specific individuals based on how important that person is to them.” 34:12
07
36:02 – 41:03

Social Value and Disgust Sensitivity in Intergroup Relations

Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Josh Tybur discuss how the behavioral immune system interacts with social valuation and intergroup attitudes. Tybur explains that tolerance for infection risk depends heavily on interpersonal value and traits like honesty rather than outgroup status alone. They also examine how immigrant assimilation affects disgust responses and anti-immigrant attitudes.

you're more likely to tolerate disease from them if they're higher on these traits.

“you're more likely to tolerate disease from them if they're higher on these traits.” 36:51

discuss sensitivity was related to anti-immigrant attitudes when they were not assimilating

“discuss sensitivity was related to anti-immigrant attitudes when they were not assimilating” 39:09
08
41:03 – 48:04

Pathogen Avoidance, Sexual Strategies, and Political Conservatism

Guest Josh Tybur and the hosts discuss the relationship between pathogen avoidance and political conservatism, exploring whether this connection is mediated by sexual strategies rather than direct outgroup hostility. They review replicability issues in psychophysiological threat reactivity measures and summarize the broad impact of the behavioral immune system on social and mating psychology.

Individuals who are higher in discuss sensitivity tend to be more politically conservative.

“Individuals who are higher in discuss sensitivity tend to be more politically conservative.” 41:25

a lot of what these methods are assessing is is noise.

“a lot of what these methods are assessing is is noise.” 45:49
09
48:04 – 52:52

Parenting, Mating, and Disgust Sensitivity Modulation

In this section, the speakers discuss how pathogen avoidance mechanisms and disgust sensitivity are modulated in the context of parenting and mating. Josh Tybur and the hosts explore research on parental tolerance for infant waste, the methodological complexities of priming studies in sexual contexts, and whether the behavioral immune system operates with targeted precision rather than blunt generalization.

parents find their own baby's diapers smell to be less aversive even when they don't know it's their own baby's diaper

“parents find their own baby's diapers smell to be less aversive even when they don't know it's their own baby's diaper” 50:10

it would be a pretty blunt design feature to say, okay, I I'm in a state of sexual arousal. I'm going to eat that yogurt that expired two months ago

“it would be a pretty blunt design feature to say, okay, I I'm in a state of sexual arousal.” 52:23
10
52:52 – 1:00:09

Contact Rituals and Costly Signaling in Relationships

The speakers examine how sophisticated adaptations within the behavioral immune system account for social rituals, physical affection, and cross-cultural sexual practices. David Pinsof and Josh Tybur discuss costly signaling theories, exploring why behaviors involving pathogen exposure or physical risk—such as contact rituals and BDSM—may function as hard-to-fake signals of social affiliation and sexual arousal.

doing disgusting things sexually can be a costly signal of sexual arousal

“doing disgusting things sexually can be a costly signal of sexual arousal.” 54:57
11
1:00:10 – 1:09:39

Perceptions of Pathogen Avoidance and Disgust Research

Host David Pinsof and guest Josh Tybur discuss how people perceive research on disgust and pathogen avoidance. They examine whether the field faces resistance, comparing it to ideological pushback in other areas of evolutionary psychology, and discuss whether apparent disgust toward physical abnormalities or obesity is better explained by social value or infection cues.

I think that people are very open to the idea that we have specialized aspects of our psychology for navigating pathogens.

“people are very open to the idea that we have specialized aspects of our psychology for navigating pathogens” 1:03:24

I'm guessing that most of it is the social value hypothesis that obesity is associated with low social value for a number of reasons.

“most of it is the social value hypothesis that obesity is associated with low social value” 1:08:20
12
1:09:40 – 1:12:14

Zombies as Supernormal Stimuli of Pathogen Risk

The speakers explore the cultural phenomenon of zombies through the lens of evolutionary psychology, discussing them as supernormal stimuli representing severe pathogen risk and zoonotic infection, while contrasting fictional representations of mobile infected individuals with real-world infectious diseases.

Zombies are discussed as a potential supernormal stimulus of pathogen risk and zoonotic infection.

“it seems like a supernormal stimulus of pathogen risk” 1:10:24

Unlike fast-moving fictional zombies, real pathogens and severe infections typically cause individuals to be listless rather than mobile and aggressive.

“people are just listless, they're laying down, it's not like they're vomiting blood” 1:11:14
13
1:12:14 – 1:14:38

Disease Vectors and the Virulence-Spreadability Trade-Off

Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Josh Tybur discuss how evolutionary biology explains disease vectors and the virulence-spreadability trade-off. They examine how pathogens balance incapacitating their hosts with the need to spread through vectors like mosquitoes or fleas, referencing historical perspectives from Paul Ewald's work on infectious disease.

And so that's why, for example, like you know, diseases that are spread by mosquitoes

“diseases that are spread by mosquitoes” 1:13:18

The parasite is also manipulating the mosquito.

“The parasite is also manipulating the mosquito.” 1:14:02
14
1:14:38 – 1:24:15

Critiquing the Concept of Evolutionary Mismatch

Guest Josh Tybur shares his critical perspective on the concept of evolutionary mismatch in evolutionary psychology. He argues that mismatch is often overextended, poorly tested, and conflates behavioral ecology with evolutionary psychology, while discussing examples like junk food preferences, ancestral ecologies, and error management theory.

And so these mechanisms are no longer adaptive.

“these mechanisms are no longer adaptive.” 1:16:29

So it's not that it's unfalsifiable, it's just never actually tested if it's a mismatch.

“it's just never actually tested if it's a mismatch.” 1:19:46
15
1:24:16 – 1:32:58

Critiques of Evolutionary Mismatch and Adaptationism

The hosts and guest discuss the concept of evolutionary mismatch, examining whether it serves as a useful analytical tool for evolutionary psychologists or functions merely as an intuitive, lazy narrative shortcut. They also touch upon early pathogen and disgust research, considering how initial broad models have evolved toward greater specificity.

it's easy to tell a lazy mismatch story to explain pretty much anything

“like it's easy to tell a lazy mismatch story to explain pretty much anything” 1:28:42

my read of the data is that there's greater specificity than first assumed

“my read of the data is that there's greater specificity than first assumed” 1:31:32
16
1:32:58 – 1:36:20

Pathogen Sensitivity and Moral Disgust

The speakers evaluate whether pathogen sensitivity relates to phenomena like conformity, noting that findings have been shaky. They then pivot to discuss the relationship between disgust and moral judgment, exploring Jonathan Haidt's work on moral foundations, emotional intuitions, and moral dumbfounding through classic vignettes.

a lot of our moral judgments are not stemming from moral reasoning

“a lot of our moral judgments are not stemming from moral reasoning” 1:34:39
17
1:36:20 – 1:45:17

Disgust versus Anger in Moral Cognition

Guest Josh Tybur discusses historical research on disgust and moral priming, addressing subsequent criticisms and a meta-analysis questioning the effect. With hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof, Tybur explores empirical distinctions between disgust and anger in moral violations, highlighting how victim identity, perpetrator value, and behavioral motivations shape distinct emotional responses and aggression tendencies.

If it happened to someone else, disgust is higher than if it happened to you.

“disgust is higher than if it happened to you” 1:40:39

reports of anger relate to desires to directly aggress against someone, whereas reports of disgust relate to desires to indirectly aggress towards someone.

“reports of anger relate to desires to directly aggress against someone” 1:40:58
18
1:45:17 – 1:48:20

Vegetarians, Self-Disgust, and Norm Condemnation

Josh Tybur shares empirical findings from studies using vegetarian populations to test whether personal disgust toward consuming meat predicts moral condemnation of meat-eaters. He explains how self-disgust uniquely predicts negative evaluations of specific norm violations independently of moral motivations, contrasting these results with other emotions like fear and defending the relevance of disgust to moral psychology.

vegetarians self-disgust, how disgusted they would be by eating meat, uniquely and most strongly predicts their negative evaluations of these meat-eating actions

“vegetarians self-disgust, how disgusted they would be by eating meat, uniquely and most strongly predicts” 1:46:18

The relation within participant between their own disgust toward engaging in behaviors and how strongly they condemn people is there. And that's stronger than if you do the same thing with other emotions like fear.

“And that's stronger than if you do the same thing with other emotions like fear.” 1:47:29
19
1:48:20 – 1:56:42

Disgust, Cultural Evolution, and Moralizing Taboos

Josh Tybur and the hosts discuss how feelings of disgust influence the moralization of behaviors such as incest and homosexuality. They explore theories on how cultural evolution, individual costs, and social coordination shape cross-cultural taboos, noting how attitudes toward homosexuality have shifted dramatically over time compared to other moral rules.

The idea that you feel disgust toward doing something is a good indication that you would never do it yourself.

“The idea that you feel disgust toward doing something is a good indication that you would” 1:49:02

And so you get this being fairly sticky, but you also have this fascinating phenomenon where it's quickly extinguished.

“And so you get this being fairly sticky, but you also have this fascinating phenomenon where it's quickly extinguished.” 1:53:13
20
1:56:43 – 2:00:22

Exploitation Benefits and Resource Scarcity in Moral Rules

The speakers debate whether moralizing disgust requires direct exploitation benefits, such as opportunities to exclude or dominate others, rather than merely incurring no personal cost. They consider how resource scarcity and zero-sum contexts might drive the emergence of disgust-based moral rules in human societies.

And there's probably a lot of overlap between that, but simply not agreeing with the moral sentiment when other people are advertising it or asking your opinion about it is a cost in of itself.

“simply not agreeing with the moral sentiment when other people are advertising it or asking your opinion about it is a cost in of itself.” 1:59:03
21
2:00:22 – 2:09:49

Status Strategies, Moralization, and Alliance Dynamics

Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsoff, and Josh Tybur discuss how moral condemnation and disgust can function as strategic tools for acquiring status without necessarily excluding others. They explore religious framing, political signaling, and how coalition-building and social contagion parallel physical pathogen avoidance.

it seems that you could test um the the deb perspective by seeing if say dark triad traits um uh interact with personal disgust

“it seems that you could test um the the deb perspective by seeing if say dark triad traits um uh interact with personal disgust” 2:01:17

because of these transitivity rules, that creates a kind of social contagion

“because of these transitivity rules, that creates a kind of social contagion” 2:07:59
22
2:09:50 – 2:12:25

Comparing Pathogen Disgust and Social Contagion

The speakers examine the similarities and differences between physical pathogen disgust and moral disgust. Josh Tybur and David Pinsoff consider how gossip and behavioral motivations function to manage reputation and protect individuals from unwanted inferences of alliance with norm violators.

A passage from this discussion.

“with pathogen disgust, it really is about physical contact versus with moral disgust,” 2:10:15
23
2:12:25 – 2:15:28

Phenomenology of Disgust and Opportunity Costs

Dave Pietraszewski and Josh Tybur discuss the shared phenomenology between pathogen disgust and moral disgust, drawing an analogy to the representation of opportunity costs in mental versus physical effort. They explore whether commonalities reflect contagion or valuation.

The speakers discuss how shared phenomenology between physical and social disgust might reflect opportunity costs rather than metabolic similarities.

“it's probably some kind of representation of opportunity costs.” 2:13:43

Tybur notes that whittling down why moral and pathogen disgust share overlapping phenomenology and outputs requires further investigation.

“whittling down on why there's that commonality in phenomenology and outputs, uh I I'm not completely sure yet.” 2:15:19
24
2:15:29 – 2:16:35

Concluding Thoughts on Behavioral Immune Systems

In the concluding segment, host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Josh Tybur briefly experience a connection glitch before summarizing the conversation about high-level commonalities in organism affordances, wrapping up the interview as it grows late for Josh.

A passage from this discussion.

“Um Josh, you're um you're you're well into the evening hours” 2:15:33