Through the conversation.
21 sectionsHosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce the podcast, discuss their comedic use of parentheses and scare quotes, and introduce guest Dr. Brooke Scelza, a biological anthropologist from UCLA who studies the Himba pastoralists in Namibia, setting up a broader discussion on mating, jealousy, parental investment, and the replication crisis in evolutionary social sciences.
Her name is Brooke Shelza, she's a professor at UCLA.
“Her name is Brooke Shelza, she's a professor at UCLA.” 2:06
She studies a group of pastoralists in Namibia known as the Himba.
“She uh studies a group of pastoralists in Namibia known as the Himba.” 2:09
023:24 – 8:10Studying the Himba and Patterns of Concurrency
Guest Brooke Scelza discusses her research with the Himba people in Namibia, explaining how she initially went to study cooperative breeding but discovered widespread patterns of concurrent formal and informal sexual partnerships. Scelza and the hosts explore how studying a population at the opposite end of the typical Western spectrum helps avoid essentializing and highlights flexibility in mating systems.
Scelza explains that she originally went to study cooperative breeding and grandmothers but discovered high rates of concurrency in partnerships.
“So I actually went there to study cooperative breeding. My dissertation, uh, which was in Australia, was looking at the roles of grandmothers and things like that.” 5:42
Scelza notes that her work highlights a broad spectrum of extramarital relationships compared to the low extrapair paternity baseline typically studied.
“And they may fall on one end of the spectrum in terms of how prominent these extramarital relationships are. But the idea was to expose the spectrum” 7:04
Brooke Scelza describes how modernization, droughts, and the introduction of cell phones and store-bought goods have altered Himba society over 15 years. The conversation examines double descent and matrilateral inheritance, where wealth flows from mother's brother to sister's son, illustrating how reproductive strategies and paternity uncertainty are deeply tied to intergenerational resource flows.
Scelza explains the Himba double descent system where wealth primarily passes matrilaterally from mother's brother to sister's son.
“So instead of going father to son, the majority of the cows go mother's brother to sister's son. So they pass through the mother's side of the family.” 9:39
The hosts and Scelza discuss how reproductive strategies are intimately tied to resource flows and inheritance rules rather than sex alone.
“reproduction is not just about sex, it's about inheritance and it's about investing.” 11:06
0412:02 – 17:27Resource Flows, Paternity Certainty, and Parental Investment
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Brooke Scelza discuss how shifts toward a cash economy may impact women's autonomy and paternity certainty. Scelza explains that despite high rates of extra-pair paternity in the studied community, men still maintain strong social norms and behavioral patterns of paternal investment toward children regardless of biological relatedness.
what you also see is that people are going to start caring more about paternity certainty
“what you also see is that people are going to start caring more about paternity certainty” 12:32
side by side a high rate of extra pair paternity, and pretty high norms of paternal investment.
“side by side a high rate of extra pair paternity, and pretty high norms of paternal investment.” 15:16
David Pinsof asks how community members determine biological paternity when it can be ambiguous. Brooke Scelza explains the various mechanisms people use—including physical resemblance, spousal communication, gossip, and periods of absence—and details how genetic analysis revealed high accuracy and intentional reporting biases in the community.
One is physical resemblance, and and they talk about the idea that once the kid gets to sort of walking around age
“One is physical resemblance, and and they talk about the idea that once the kid gets to” 17:59
we knew that both men and women were right about 70 to 75% of the time.
“we knew that both men and women were right about 70 to 75% of the time.” 21:41
0624:05 – 31:02Norms of Paternity Uncertainty and Resource Transfers
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Brooke Scelza discuss how pastoralist societies manage paternity uncertainty, spousal separation, and norms around treating children equally. They examine how resource transfers, cash, and covert gifts operate between marital partners and extramarital boyfriends within these complex cultural systems.
Except I think given that they are so good, it's surprising that they have these norms to treat them equally, right?
“Except I think given that they are so good, it's surprising that they have these norms to treat them equally” 24:46
0731:02 – 36:06Vignette Experiments on Paternity, Generosity, and Indirect Reciprocity
Brooke Scelza describes vignette experiments investigating how participants allocate resources across various family categories based on paternity and relationship type. The hosts and guest explore why generosity matters for boyfriends, how men gain social cachet, and how indirect reciprocity supports cooperative norms across the community.
And they definitely Favored paternity, right?
“And they definitely Favored paternity, right?” 31:56
If you have a boyfriend, yeah, wealth is important, but generosity is really what's important because it's up to him to decide
“If you have a boyfriend, yeah, wealth is important, but generosity is really what's important” 32:46
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Brooke Scelza discuss how reciprocal altruism and robust social norms support non-exclusive mating systems. They explore children's awareness of parental investment, the existence of behavioral biases versus strict norms, and how social relationships shape father-child dynamics.
it's like a straightforward application of reciprocal altruism
“It's like a straightforward application of reciprocal altruism” 36:35
the norms were very strong, the behavior was more mixed
“the norms were very strong, the behavior was more mixed” 40:48
0944:03 – 48:12Evolutionary Psychology of Sexual and Emotional Jealousy
David Pinsof and Brooke Scelza examine how her findings on sexual versus emotional jealousy among the Himba fit into broader evolutionary psychology frameworks, highlighting cross-cultural variations and the limitations of focusing solely on sex differences.
men face this unique problem of ensuring paternity certainty
“because men face this unique problem of ensuring paternity certainty” 44:42
1048:12 – 53:11Cross-Cultural Variation and Paternal Investment in Jealousy
Guest Brooke Scelza discusses with hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof her cross-cultural research on jealousy regarding sexual versus emotional infidelity. While testing populations such as the Himba, Chimane, and Hadza, they found that variation in the severity of jealousy responses was heavily driven by levels of paternal investment rather than universal sex differences alone.
one of the things that we found was that paternal investment was one of the things that was driving it.
“one of the things that we found was that paternal investment was one of the things that was driving it.” 51:09
1153:11 – 1:00:12Evolutionary Psychology, Culture, and Rational Cost-Benefit Design
The speakers discuss the broader theoretical implications of studying behavioral variation rather than solely focusing on universal sex differences. They examine how cultural systems reinforce evolutionary logic, noting that flexible cost-benefit calibrations, such as investment-dependent jealousy, represent sophisticated evolved design rather than being antithetical to evolutionary theory.
understanding how these cultural systems work to sort of reinforce the evolutionary logic.
“understanding how these cultural systems work to sort of reinforce the evolutionary logic.” 54:38
if there is this evolved design, and even it's running even counter to modern costs and benefits, then like, yeah, why else would it be there?
“if there is this evolved design, and even it's running even counter to modern costs and benefits, then like, yeah, why else would it be there?” 56:36
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Brooke Scelza discuss how human behavioral ecology keeps psychological research grounded by examining ecological constraints, foraging costs, and real-world adaptive problems rather than relying solely on counterintuitive findings. They explore the integration of cultural evolution, norms, and behavioral ecology across academic traditions.
human behavioral ecologists and anthropology and evolution is what keeps us honest to asking really important questions
“human behavioral ecologists and anthropology and evolution is what keeps us honest to asking really important questions” 1:01:32
what you've produced by pro by with that perverse incentive structure is a false positive machine
“what you've produced by pro by with that perverse incentive structure is a false positive machine” 1:02:03
The speakers examine whether evolutionary psychologists are successfully integrating perspectives from behavioral ecology and cultural evolution, or if fields remain siloed. They emphasize the necessity of cross-cultural anthropology to test assumptions about universal human psychology and avoid biases stemming from Western populations.
the norms come from the evolved psychology too. It loops around.
“the norms come from the evolved psychology too. It loops around.” 1:09:29
we need to keep pushing on this idea of like, is this evolved psychology or not?
“we need to keep pushing on this idea of like, is this evolved psychology or not?” 1:10:49
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Brooke Scelza discuss the limitations of traditional cross-cultural psychology research, arguing against using other cultures merely as a cudgel to prove universals. Instead, they emphasize understanding human behavioral flexibility, moving past false dichotomies, and integrating behavioral ecology with evolutionary psychology to study how minds adapt to diverse contexts.
Whereas what we should be doing as psychologists as is trying to explain that cultural variation
“what we should be doing as psychologists as is trying to explain that cultural variation” 1:15:03
What's really hard is like having a kid and having them not die.
“What's really hard is like having a kid and having them not die.” 1:17:36
Brooke Scelza, Dave Pietraszewski, and David Pinsof examine how fieldwork in anthropology humbles researchers by challenging preconceived notions. They discuss the current state of human behavioral ecology, the challenges of differing academic incentive structures, and the importance of fostering ongoing interdisciplinary conversations between psychologists and anthropologists.
Anthropology makes you humble in a way that maybe is less common in psychology
“anthropology makes you humble in a way that maybe is less common in psychology” 1:18:07
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Brooke Scelza discuss the differences in field size and integration between human behavioral ecology and evolutionary psychology. They examine how the public's fascination with sex and dating leads to oversimplified pop psychology interpretations, and the challenges educators face when students apply these folk theories to personal relationships.
HBE just has always been smaller. And so we've been more forced.
“HBE just has always been smaller. And so we've been more forced.” 1:25:22
everyone loves to do this, and that grows, and it's much harder to do the anthropology.
“everybody loves to to you know sort of to to do this. But um it and that grows” 1:27:22
The speakers discuss the manosphere, mating market struggles, and how young people encounter distorted evolutionary claims online. Brooke Scelza argues that scientists have a responsibility to actively correct misinterpretations of their research—such as misunderstandings around cuckoldry—rather than blaming the public for oversimplifying complex data.
Scientists have a responsibility to explicitly say what research does and does not mean.
“we as scientists have a responsibility if we're if we are talking about these topics to get out there and and right these wrongs in the science” 1:31:43
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Brooke Scelza discuss the differences and similarities between men's and women's status-seeking behaviors. Scelza highlights how women's status often relies on understated social qualities like generosity and connectivity rather than conspicuous physical traits, challenging traditional evolutionary perspectives on network structures.
Women's status-seeking tends to be less conspicuous yet remains hugely important for social scientists to study.
“women's status seeking tends to be less conspicuous” 1:37:27
Similarities exist between drivers of men's and women's status among the Himba, where generosity is crucial for both.
“generosity, for example, was important for both” 1:37:53
The hosts and Brooke Scelza examine how women's social influence is often intentionally concealed behind the scenes in political and decision-making contexts. They discuss the methodological challenges this poses for researchers and evaluate adaptationist expectations regarding women navigating restrictive social environments.
Women's roles and political influence in societies are frequently understudied because they operate through subtle, behind-the-scenes conversations.
“having behind the scenes conversations with their wives, their sisters, their mothers” 1:42:17
Despite acknowledgment of male coercion, evolutionary perspectives suggest women still attempt to exert whatever influence they can to advance their interests.
“male coercion is real” 1:47:12
The hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof wrap up their conversation with guest Brooke Scelza, expressing their appreciation for her anthropological fieldwork and the arduous effort required to collect empirical data in challenging environments.
The host acknowledges the physical hardships of anthropological fieldwork that lie behind published research findings.
“In every sentence, you know, there's like a lot of blood, sweat, and tears” 1:49:40
In the outro, the hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof thank listeners, encourage them to leave podcast reviews and support the show on Patreon, and humorously request a fanny pack for David.
The hosts invite listeners to support the podcast by leaving positive reviews or contributing on Patreon.
“they can support us by leaving a good review” 1:50:11