The conversation, in brief.
In this episode of the podcast, hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof interview guest Martin Daly about the interdisciplinary origins of evolutionary behavioral sciences. Daly reflects on early academic centers, the formation of the Human Behavior and Evolution Society, and his collaborative homicide research with Margot Wilson using demographic and epidemiological datasets. The conversation examines disciplinary tensions between anthropology and psychology, critiques of terms like "innateness," the limitations of self-report survey data, and the relationship between socioeconomic inequality, violence, and risk sensitivity. Finally, Daly shares advice for young researchers to cultivate comparative perspectives by studying non-human animals.
Through the conversation.
20 sections010:00 – 6:48Introduction and the Interdisciplinary Origins of Evolutionary Psychology
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce guest Martin Daly, one of the founders of evolutionary behavioral sciences. Daly discusses the foundational history of the field, emphasizing its strongly interdisciplinary nature involving anthropologists and biologists rather than just psychology, and shares his transition into Darwinian animal behavior research.
I like to think of the study of evolution and human behavior as a very interdisciplinary field.
“I like to think of the study of evolution and human behavior as a very interdisciplinary field” 4:01
So I never like to talk about evolutionary psychology as if it's a branch of psychology
“So I never like to talk about evolutionary psychology as if it's a branch of psychology” 4:46
026:50 – 12:04Early Centers of Human Sociobiology and Research Communities
Martin Daly recalls how he and Margot Wilson began researching human behavior after running a sociobiology seminar following Ed Wilson's book. He details key early academic centers at Harvard and Michigan, influential figures like Dick Alexander, and foundational meetings that led to the Human Behavior and Evolution Society.
There were two centers in the US where something was crystallizing in anthropology.
“there were two centers in the US where something was crystallizing in anthropology” 9:15
we had these little annual meetings from 1981 until the foundation of HBES in 89.
“we had these little annual meetings from 1981 until the foundation of HBES in 89” 11:46
0312:04 – 20:34Foundational Support and Early Evolutionary Perspectives
Martin Daly discusses the early reception of applying evolutionary theory to Homo sapiens, noting strong support from theoretical biologists like Bill Hamilton and George Williams. Daly reflects on his background in behavioral endocrinology, the interdisciplinary nature of the field bridging animal behavior and human studies, and how evolutionary thinking gradually gained acceptance within psychological journals despite occasional resistance.
we had the support and enthusiastic participation, even of Bill Hamilton and George Williams
“we had the support and enthusiastic participation, even of Bill Hamilton and George Williams” 12:15
most psychologists Have wrapped their mind around the idea that sure evolution must have something to do with the psyche
“most psychologists Have wrapped their mind around the idea that sure evolution must have something to do with the psyche” 18:49
0420:35 – 24:05Interdisciplinary Tensions Between Psychology and Anthropology
The speakers discuss the historical relationship and occasional friction between evolutionary psychology and human behavioral ecology. Martin Daly shares observations from editing the journal Evolution and Human Behavior, addressing concerns from anthropologists regarding the representation of psychological research versus field-based anthropological studies.
I grew up in a a world where evolutionary psychology and human behavioral ecology were were slightly pitted against each other
“I grew up in a a world where evolutionary psychology and human behavioral ecology were were slightly pitted against each other” 21:23
a number of anthropologists were sort of this this society's becoming dominated by psychologists
“a number of anthropologists were sort of this this society's becoming dominated by psychologists” 22:38
0524:05 – 28:57Disciplinary Tensions Between Anthropology and Evolutionary Approaches
Martin Daly discusses historical professional challenges faced by early anthropologists interested in evolutionary approaches, highlighting friction over terminology between human behavioral ecologists and evolutionary psychologists, and reflecting on his background outside mainstream psychology.
And, you know, damn it, we're not doing evolutionary psychology, we're doing something different, human behavioral ecology.
“damn it, we're not doing evolutionary psychology, we're doing something different, human behavioral ecology.” 28:33
0628:57 – 36:07Epidemiological Data, Homicide Research, and Psychological Nuance
David Pinsof and Dave Pietraszewski discuss Martin Daly and Margot Wilson's research methods using demographic and epidemiological datasets rather than lab experiments, praising the psychological sophistication and nuance in how they analyzed phenomena like homicide without resorting to simplistic adaptations.
These are byproducts of other systems in the mind that have different functions.
“byproducts of other systems in the mind that have different functions.” 34:07
0736:07 – 43:55Critiques of Innateness and Evolutionary Psychology Concepts
Host Dave Pietraszewski and guest Martin Daly discuss the early days of evolutionary psychology, their resistance to terms like "innateness" and "instinct," and historical critiques rooted in animal behavior background. They explore how these terms can dismiss developmental ontogeny and generate confusion, while also touching on Steven Pinker's work on the language instinct.
I do still dislike the concept of innateness. And I dislike it for its for its implication
“I do still dislike the concept of innateness.” 39:51
It's an extremely misleading folk concept that I think, you know, generates more confusion than insight.
“It's an extremely misleading folk concept uh that I think” 41:01
0843:55 – 48:07Animal Behavior, Developmental Contingency, and Real-World Data
Martin Daly shares empirical examples from animal behavior studies, such as desert rodents processing specialized salt bush leaves, to illustrate the complexities of developmental contingency and evolved behaviors. The conversation then transitions to methodological skepticism regarding self-report data in behavioral research.
The whole reason it's there is to take in input from the environment and respond intelligently and strategically
“respond intelligently and strategically to that input.” 46:35
I'm probably one of the more skeptical people you'll meet about the utility of self-report data.
“I'm probably one of the more skeptical people you'll meet about the utility of self-report data.” 47:48
Martin Daly discusses the unreliability of self-report data in psychology, noting that people often invent post-hoc explanations for their behavior. He points out that even human behavioral ecologists, who study actions rather than just surveys, still depend heavily on the utterances and hearsay of others.
when you ask people to explain their preferences or their choices or their behavior in some way, they will immediately spout a sincere, convincing sounding account
“when you ask people to explain their preferences or their choices or their behavior in some way, they will immediately spout a sincere, convincing sounding account” 48:20
Martin Daly explains how he and Margot began studying homicide to bypass reporting biases associated with child maltreatment and to gain an objective window into human conflict and passions, eventually partnering with police departments such as in Detroit.
Marg said, you know, we should study homicide more generally. It was like, it's, it should be a great window on human conflicts and human passions.
“Marg said, you know, we should study homicide more generally. It was like, it's, it should be a great window on human conflicts and human passions.” 54:06
Martin Daly discusses his research on homicide rates linked to inequitable access to resources and the challenges of studying inequality. The speakers explore the role of deductive logic in evolutionary psychology, debate the physiological and psychological mechanisms by which inequality gets under the skin, and address criticisms regarding mediation and causal pathways.
I want to pin it overwhelmingly on inequitable access to resources and the ensuing competitiveness
“inequitable access to resources and the ensuing competitiveness that” 1:01:39
Science. Which God help us, you might actually test against reality.
“Science. Which God help us, you might actually test against reality.” 1:03:24
The hosts and Martin Daly examine different dimensions of inequality, contrasting economic wealth with inequality in power and political access. They discuss how zero-sum games, political connections, and the perception of a rigged system can incentivize risk-prone or violent strategies, while also considering how inequality manifests across various social structures.
inequality of wealth or resources is deeply intertwined with inequality in power
“inequality of wealth or resources is deeply intertwined with inequality” 1:06:37
The speakers discuss how socioeconomic inequality relates to patterns of violence, noting that violence often occurs among the have-nots rather than targeting the wealthy. Martin Daly and the hosts explore whether inequality at the top versus the bottom drives resentment and risky behavior, connecting these dynamics to risk-sensitive foraging theory and having stakes in life.
Daly notes that violence associated with inequality is much more common among the have-nots against other have-nots rather than against the haves.
“much much more of again among the have nots against the have not other have nots” 1:14:27
Daly suggests that having something to lose drastically changes one's attitude toward risk, making bottom-of-the-hierarchy conditions particularly dangerous.
“when you got something to lose, maybe your attitude to risk changes a lot.” 1:20:33
Asked about the overall story of evolutionary psychology, Martin Daly reflects on his disappointments regarding infighting among potential allies, as well as his broader feelings on the reception of evolutionary approaches, including encounters with international scholars and researchers during events like Darwin Day in Iran.
Daly expresses heartbreak over petty infighting and alienation among groups of evolutionists who should be natural allies.
“that there's infighting among people who ought to be allies.” 1:22:02
Daly shares his positive experience speaking remotely at Darwin Day in Tehran and collaborating with local researchers on cousin marriage studies.
“I spoke at it last year. Um I wasn't in Tehran, I spoke at it remotely.” 1:22:49
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Martin Daly discuss the cancellation of a Darwin Day event in Iran, religious attitudes toward evolutionary theory, and the current state of evolutionary biology, anthropology, and psychology in academia.
Evpsych itself, I think, is pretty robust.
“Evpsych itself, I think, is pretty robust.” 1:26:38
The speakers discuss whether foundational figures in evolutionary psychology like George Williams and Lita Cosmides were driven by righteous anger against flawed prevailing views, and consider how younger generations navigate academic pressures and institutional corporatization.
George Williams wrote Adaptation and Natural Selection out of a state of righteous anger against group selectionist ideas.
“George Williams being writing adaptation and natural flex to the state of righteous anger.” 1:34:45
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Martin Daly discuss the state of academic research, focusing on funding models in Canada, the shift toward large concentrated grants, and how these changes impact scientific creativity and risk-taking among younger scholars.
Sweden and Canada punched way above their weight because they didn't give big grants
“Sweden and Canada punched way above their weight because they didn't give big grants, but they gave grants to a large proportion of the applicants.” 1:41:14
The speakers reminisce about early discussions concerning what to name the emerging field of evolutionary psychology, touching on debates between 'Darwinian psychology' and 'evolutionary psychology,' before briefly discussing Don Simons' intellectual background in animal behavior and anthropology.
The very phrase evolutionary psychology, I didn't like it so well because I was thinking, it sounds too much like you're going to reconstruct phylogeny
“the very phrase evolutionary psychology, I didn't like it so well because I was thinking, it sounds too much like you're going to reconstruct phylogeny” 1:44:58
Don Simons called it Darwinian psychology, and I liked that better
“Don Simons called it Darwinian psychology, and I liked that better.” 1:45:25
191:48:24 – 1:53:31Reflections on Don Simons and Early Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Martin Daly discuss the legacy of Don Simons, his emphasis on explicit psychological framing, and the early days of the Human Behavior and Evolution Society supported by prominent evolutionary biologists.
He pushed that hard at me anyway, um and uh I presume at others as well.
“He pushed that hard at me anyway” 1:49:45
Martin Daly notes that Don Simons was the main person who urged researchers to be more explicitly psychological.
“try to be more explicitly psychological” 1:49:20
Martin Daly advises young researchers to gain a deep comparative perspective by studying non-human animals to avoid anthropocentric biases in evolutionary psychology, followed by closing remarks and music discussion by the hosts.
Martin Daly advises young scientists to get research experience studying non-human animals to build a deep comparative mindset.
“get the to the lab of somebody studying some non-human animal” 1:54:10
Daly warns that some of the worst evolutionary psychology comes from people who never consider creatures other than Homo sapiens.
“some of the most embarrassingly bad evolutionary psychology has come from people who have never given a thought to any other creature than Homo sapiens” 1:55:18