Through the conversation.
20 sectionsHosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof introduce the podcast and welcome guest Annie Wertz, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Santa Barbara. They discuss her academic background, including her time at the Max Planck Institute for Human Development in Berlin, and explore the unique structure of independent research groups funded by the Max Planck Society.
it's a lovely example of somebody taking evolutionary perspective on development and learning
“a really lovely example of somebody taking evolutionary perspective on development and learning” 1:39
the idea behind these independent research groups is it's really promising ideas that are potentially too new
“the idea behind these independent research groups is it's really promising ideas that are potentially too new” 9:48
The hosts ask Annie Wertz about the origin story of her pioneering research on how infants learn about plants and the natural world. Wertz traces her background back to her early work in cognitive development during the early 2000s and reading infant cognition literature.
you're the first person to start studying this topic, you basically pioneered this new field of research
“you're the first person to start studying this topic, you basically pioneered this new field of research” 10:32
I'm my kind of deep time history as a scientist is in cognitive development
“my kind of deep time history as a scientist is in cognitive development” 11:15
0312:01 – 18:39Encountering Evolutionary Psychology and Theory of Mind
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Annie Wertz discuss Wertz's graduate school entry into evolutionary psychology. Wertz explains how she started interested in folk biology and theory of mind—defined as understanding that other people have mental states like beliefs and desires—before meeting Lita Cosmides at UCSB, which led her to adopt an adaptationist approach to studying the mind.
theory of mind is uh is the common sense understanding of that other people have mental states
“The the theory of mind is uh is the common sense understanding of that other people have mental states like beliefs, desires” 16:21
why wouldn't you want to know about and use the process that built the organism
“why wouldn't you want to know about and use the process that built the organism as a way of deriving predictions” 15:37
0418:40 – 24:03The Conceptual Challenges of Mastering Adaptationist Thinking
The speakers explore the difficulties and mental effort required to truly grasp adaptationist thinking and counterintuitive scientific concepts. Wertz shares her personal experience of understanding and then doubting evolutionary frameworks during graduate training, comparing it to teaching students complex topics like heritability and gene-environment interactions in developmental psychology.
it takes training to flip out of the way you normally think about things to overcome your instinct blindness
“concepts that it takes training to flip out of the way you normally think about things to overcome your instinct blindness” 22:40
it's not the caricature of just thinking, oh hey, back in back when we were living in caves
“it's not the caricature of just thinking, oh hey, back in uh back when we were living in caves” 21:52
0524:03 – 29:11Challenges and Misconceptions in Evolutionary Psychology
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof discuss the prevalence of amateur and overconfident approaches to evolutionary psychology. With guest Annie Wertz, they compare the hidden complexities of evolutionary theory and developmental research to other scientific disciplines, noting how abstract frameworks often lead people to underestimate the rigorous training required.
there's a lot of like really lazy amateur evolutionary psychology out there
“There's a lot of like really lazy amateur evolutionary psychology out there.” 24:47
0629:11 – 36:06Core Knowledge in Infants and the Transition to Plant Research
Guest Annie Wertz explains her background in studying infant core knowledge and violation-of-expectation methods in Santa Barbara. She describes how exposure to biological anthropology, human life history trajectories, and running through mountain landscapes inspired her to investigate the cognitive mechanisms behind gathering plant resources.
babies often have very clear expectations about how the world works
“They often have uh very clear expectations about how the world works” 29:29
gathered plant resources form the basis of the diet in human life history models
“the kind of basis of the diet is plants, it's gathered plant resources.” 34:00
0736:06 – 45:06Transitioning from Theory of Mind to Plant Cognition
Host Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Annie Wertz discuss Wertz's transition from studying theory of mind in graduate school to investigating human infant cognition regarding plants during her postdoc with Karen Wynn. Wertz explains how frustration with faddish academic topics and an adaptationist approach inspired her to pursue novel research questions about how humans learn about plants.
there might be design in the human mind for learning about plants
“there might be design in the human mind for learning about plants” 38:23
it was just, it was the vigilance for like, oh, hang on, that is hard, right?
“it was the vigilance for like, oh, hang on, that is hard” 44:17
0845:06 – 48:07Adaptive Challenges and Plant-Animal Behavioral Differences
Annie Wertz reviews prior developmental literature on children's intuitive biology and explains how an evolutionary, adaptationist perspective highlights the fundamental differences in how humans interact with plants versus animals. Wertz notes that unlike mobile animals, plants are stationary, meaning the behavioral strategies and cognitive mechanisms required to avoid plant hazards like toxins or rashes differ significantly from those for animal threats.
the way that you engage with plants is very different than the way that you engage with animals
“the way that you engage with plants is very different than the way that you engage with animals” 46:52
A dangerous plant, you can have a poison oak plant that you're gonna get a horrible rash, or you can have a deadly toxic plant that if you take a bite of it, you will die. But none of that happens unless you go to the plant.
“none of that happens unless you go to the plant” 47:48
Hosts Dave Pietraszewski and David Pinsof discuss with guest Annie Wertz the evolutionary significance of plants for humans. They explore how plants serve as a fundamental, high-stakes selection pressure in ancestral environments, noting that despite modern perceptions of plants as mere background wallpaper, dealing with plant resources and avoiding their toxic compounds has shaped human cognitive systems.
Plants, contrary to the intuition, like this probably the most certain stable feature that that like animals have been, you know, dealing with for really really long time
“Plants, contrary to the intuition, like this probably the most certain stable feature” 53:02
I don't think I'm wrong that the psychology is set up to deal with plants. Right. Right. In some way. Like some aspects of human psychology must be set up to deal with plants.
“some aspects of human psychology must be set up to deal with plants.” 55:04
Annie Wertz explains the design features of human plant-processing systems, highlighting that omnivorous diets and toxic secondary compounds in plants make individual trial-and-error learning dangerous or fatal. Because many staple plant foods require complex processing and cooking, these conditions create strong evolutionary pressures for social learning mechanisms to acquire local survival knowledge from others.
These circumstances select for the evolution of social learning mechanisms where instead of trial and error learning the information for yourself, you instead the mechanisms are set up to learn the information from the people in your local
“select for the evolution of social learning mechanisms” 59:52
Guest Annie Wertz and the hosts discuss how human infants possess specialized psychological mechanisms for evaluating plants. Infants display a distinct reluctance to touch unfamiliar real and artificial plants compared to other objects, seeking social information from adults and demonstrating selective learning regarding plant edibility and fine-grained features.
Infants show evidence of a psychology that is designed for balancing the costs and benefits of plants, such that when infants are first confronted with unfamiliar plants, they show a reluctance to reach out and touch plants compared to other things.
“infants show evidence of a psychology that is designed for balancing the costs and benefits of plants” 1:01:22
The speakers examine whether the specific cognitive mechanisms dedicated to plant learning and toxin avoidance constitute an evolutionary module. Annie Wertz clarifies that she views these as overlapping systems for plant learning rather than rigid Fodorian modules, unpacking historical misconceptions around the term modularity.
A passage from this discussion.
“I know you and Dave have written a lot about modularity and how you don't like that term.” 1:09:05
In this discussion with host Dave Pietraszewski, guest Annie Wertz explains why traditional Fodorian modularity is an inadequate framework for studying plant-foraging adaptations. Instead of assuming rigid boundaries, the speakers emphasize an adaptationist perspective focused on how the mind solves specific, overlapping adaptive problems related to stationary resources and learning.
the modularity, the Fodorian modularity approach, I think, misleads us into doing
“the Fodorian modularity approach, I think, misleads us” 1:16:08
evolutionary psychologists talk about modularity, they're talking about a functionally specif specialized system
“evolutionary psychologists talk about modularity, they're talking about a functionally specif specialized system” 1:12:16
The speakers discuss how evolution and learning are not mutually exclusive, highlighting that evolved adaptations can specifically design learning systems. Annie Wertz then elaborates on the vast utility of plants in hunter-gatherer societies, extending far beyond food to encompass material culture, medicine, and chemical uses.
evolution can design a learning system
“Evolution can design a learning system.” 1:19:49
plants are a huge part of human material culture
“Plants are a huge part of that as well. So plants are a huge part of human material culture.” 1:21:36
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and Annie Wertz discuss how humans process plants for food and material construction, comparing modern specialized labor with ancestral hunter-gatherer repertoires. The speakers explore artifact psychology, highlighting how interacting with natural materials like wood and animal parts reveals evolved behavioral motor repertoires that persist despite modern environments.
There's almost like there's this placeholder for like processing plants as just one of the repertoire behavioral motor repertoires of what we do
“like it's almost like there's this placeholder for like processing plants as just one of the repertoire behavioral motor repertoires of what we do” 1:29:22
Annie Wertz explains how infants and children learn about plant edibility through social cues and observation, noting that babies initially display neophobia toward unknown plants to avoid toxins. The speakers discuss the mismatch between ancestral foraging contexts—where children observe processing and multi-age peers—and modern feeding practices, which often trigger food rejections in young children.
Babies' initial response to unknown plants is to kind of avoid them as a way of avoiding exposure to potentially dangerous toxins
“the littlest babies, their initial response to unknown plants is to kind of avoid them, right? As a way of avoiding exposure to these potentially dangerous toxins” 1:33:42
Dave Pietraszewski, David Pinsof, and guest Annie Wertz discuss infant responses to food processing, social inferences about food, and how emotions like disgust, fear, or a distinct cautionary state relate to plant interaction and avoidance.
it seems like disgust might be too coarse grained of an emotion
“disgust might be too coarse grained of an emotion to apply to plants” 1:40:15
it really is this this caution state
“It really is this this caution state.” 1:42:27
The speakers examine observational learning systems and the lack of explicit teaching in small-scale societies, proposing that media like cooking shows or building videos might satisfy a psychological need for physical interaction with plant environments in modern cultures.
people love watching like people make stuff
“people love watching like people make stuff.” 1:47:48
Annie Wertz, Dave Pietraszewski, and David Pinsof discuss food neophobia in children, exploring how categorization abilities and subtle visual details influence what toddlers perceive as food. They also share childhood anecdotes about encountering toxic plants like poison oak and discuss plant chemical defenses.
some of this food neophobia stuff seems maybe uh the result of um having less or more immature categorization abilities.
“food neophobia stuff seems maybe uh the result of um having less or more immature categorization abilities” 1:49:47
if your categorization abilities, if you score more high, uh highly on categorization abilities, you're less likely to exhibit neophobia in some of her studies.
“if you score more high, uh highly on categorization abilities, you're less likely to exhibit neophobia” 1:50:13
The hosts and Annie Wertz reflect on the importance of merging developmental psychology with evolutionary approaches to understand human learning and infant cognition. They conclude by discussing Wertz's lab and wrapping up the podcast episode.
learning is not opposed to evolutionary and the connection to development.
“learning is not opposed to evolutionary and the connection to development” 1:54:33
as a developmental psychologist, you were already asking like a good question, and evolutionary psychology answered it.
“as a developmental psychologist, you were already asking like a good question, and evolutionary psychology answered it” 1:54:51